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Discovery 2x13: Such Sweet Sorrow

thegrandnagus1thegrandnagus1 Member Posts: 5,165 Arc User
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VAdYni7cmU8

That trailer definitely has me hyped. I wonder if any "main" characters will die? :o

Or maybe they will pull a Galaxy Quest and activate the Omega 13... I mean time crystal :D

The-Grand-Nagus
Join Date: Sep 2008

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Comments

  • ryan218ryan218 Member Posts: 36,106 Arc User
    Okay, two things:

    1. After seeing that Enterprise interior, I really wouldn't mind a mini-series set on the Enterprise. Whoever did the set design on that seems to have struck just the right balance between keeping the old aesthetics while modernising it with new techniques and making it still look futuristic (proof that it can be done).
    2. Could someone please introduce Kurtzmann to the concept of "less = more"? Why exactly did they have to introduce the character of Po right out of left field just to facilitate a technobabble solution that isn't even in line with what she was introduced as an expert in?! They could have had any existing character (like Jett, or Stamets) come up with the spore drive battery charger. On top of that, she got more character development in 10 minutes of screen time that most of the show's characters have in the whole season. The last time that happened, the character in question got blown out an airlock. I rate her survival chances as: Ensign Ricky.
  • szimszim Member Posts: 2,503 Arc User
    A filler episode. A bad one. Imminent danger, the crew is almost out of time and the future of the entire galaxy is at stake. But sure, let's have a big group hug and ignore the Captain ordering you to the bridge immediatly. And despite the crew not knowing where the next signal would light up, Sarek and Amanda were already headed there, waiting at Xahea to tell Michael how special she is. (Too bad they didn't warn Starfleet from Vulcan first. They could have sent reinforcements to fight Control).

    And then there's the usual 'nitpicky' stuff which, in its over-abundance, completely destroyed this episode to me.
    • Contact to Starfleet is jammed, but they couldn't spore jump to Earth, warn the Federation and immediatley spore jump back to where they intended to go?
    • Also, they coudn't spore jump to a far distant location where they had more time to charge the crystal?
    • An antimatter missile can trigger a supernova in a red giant?
    • Touching a time crystal seals your fate. Unless you're Michael Burnham, in which case the vision shows only one possible outcome.
    • The timesuit is tailored to Dr.Burnhams DNA, but of course, having the same mitochondrial RNA will suffice... (I can't even...)
    • The timesuit is made from some special alloy that cannot be replicated. But a cargo bay bulkhead will do...
    • Control is 5 minutes out, Discovery is completely abandoned. Yet they manage to get dozens of people back aboard, start up the spore drive and jump out. Leland must have stopped for a coffee break on the way.

    I always thought that the spore drive was a bad idea. It renders time and distance irrelevant. It's hard for writers to come up with a credible threat without completely ignoring the possibilities a working spore drive would provide. They could jump Discovery to a galaxy far far away and Control would never be able to determine where they went. They could jump to Risa, enjoy two weeks of vacation before going back to deal with Leland. They could jump to Wolf 359 to meet up with the entire Fleet.

    One thing the episode made clear to me. I couldn't care less about Michael Burnham. The more they showed how precious she is to everybody, the less I cared.
  • legendarylycan#5411 legendarylycan Member Posts: 37,275 Arc User
    reyan01 wrote: »
    How exactly was Control jamming Discovery after the ship jumped away to Xahea? I was able to swallow this when the Section 31 ships were closing in on Discovery and the Enterprise, but was a little harder to accept post-spore jump.

    they answered that in the episode, and even in the synopsis currently on MA - control knocked out starfleet's entire subspace relay network​​
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  • lostcause212lostcause212 Member Posts: 160 Arc User
    Welp, I definitely want the DSC style Connie when it drops now that we've seen it properly.

    Hopefully it's not stuffed in lockboxes like the TOS T6. But it probably will be.
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  • lostcause212lostcause212 Member Posts: 160 Arc User
    reyan01 wrote: »
    reyan01 wrote: »
    How exactly was Control jamming Discovery after the ship jumped away to Xahea? I was able to swallow this when the Section 31 ships were closing in on Discovery and the Enterprise, but was a little harder to accept post-spore jump.

    they answered that in the episode, and even in the synopsis currently on MA - control knocked out starfleet's entire subspace relay network​​

    Ahh - must've missed that - sorry


    Yeah, Pike explicitly said that the only communications still working are ship-to-ship, with the range penalties that implies.
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  • centurian821centurian821 Member Posts: 274 Arc User
    I don't think running away is actually the right choice here. Yeah Control wants the data more than anything and they should do what they can to keep it out of Control's hands but that aside Control is too large a threat to just run away from. It has an advanced fleet at its disposal and by taking down Starfleets subspace network it proves that it's a technological threat as well as a military one.
    The plan should have been not "How do we keep this away from Control?" but "How do we use this data to force Control into a fight we can win?"
    The story has created a credible threat that Discovery can't just run away from to solve its problem, but instead of facing that threat on their terms like they should they are trying to run away from it.

    Disclaimer: This is based on reviews and murmurings I have heard of the episode and season. I have yet to actually watch beyond S2:E1.
  • mustrumridcully0mustrumridcully0 Member Posts: 12,963 Arc User
    It was a bit too much of emotional goodbyes in the episode. But I guess it was a way to set up the next episode, where we won't
    have time for that (presumably.)

    But I enjoyed seeing a Starfleet crew technobabbling solutions to their problems. And the technobabble was not nonsensical, it seemed to make sense in the context.

    And the Enterprise interior sure was beautiful. Did they really create it just for this episode, or do they have long-term plans for it?
    What also surprised me how good the "classic" sound effects can still sound if you mix them with modern visuals. I guess thereis always some nostalgia swinging there, but it worked.
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  • centurian821centurian821 Member Posts: 274 Arc User
    The story has created a credible threat that Discovery can't just run away from to solve its problem, but instead of facing that threat on their terms like they should they are trying to run away from it.
    Burnham's mom did over 800 time jumps to try to prevent Control from getting the data and destroying all life. Every single alteration made still led to Control getting the data at some point and destroying all life.

    Okay, but say they get the Data permanently away from Control somehow, what then? Control undoubtedly has the upper hand right now and can cripple the Federation if not just Stafleet technologically, it doesn't need the data to do that. They can get away but the threat is still there. I get the "one thing at a time" philosophy and certainly approve of such things but was this question brought up in the episode? If so then I'll recant.
  • mustrumridcully0mustrumridcully0 Member Posts: 12,963 Arc User
    I am not sure Control has a chance of maintaining its upper hand. I think it is no accident that it could only take over Section 31 ships - they were the only ones it had that level of control over. So if it really tried to go out attacking others, it will be overwhelmed quickly.

    The biggest danger might be that it might go into hiding (and presumably Section 31 has some abilities to keep their ships unnoticed from prying eyes, even if it's not full cloak), and look for the Discovery in secret. We don't know what practical limits the Spore Drive might have in terms of range, but it might be limited enough that it can't really hide away safely anywhere.

    Still, I think there is not really much of a difference between temporally or spatially displacing the ship. Whatever you do, it will take Control a long time to find you. But temporal displacement at least guarantees that you know the earliest point in time where it can catch up to you. This might not help the Discovery crew, but it might help Starfleet.
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  • szimszim Member Posts: 2,503 Arc User
    You seem to forget, this was a plot point in S1. Sarek gave Burnham part of his Katra when she was injured in the Vulcan Extremest attack on the learning center, which allowed them a limited form of long range telepathy. Similar to Spock being able to sense the death of an entire Vulcan crew by the giant space amoeba in TOS. Sarek didn't know what was going on, only that Burnham was greatly worried.

    I realize that. I'm not questioning the fact that Sarek knew Michael's intentions. I question that Sarek and Amanda made it all the way to Xahea in the time it took Discovery to spore jump there. And if Sarek could feel this existential threat to the Federation, why didn't he bring a fleet of starships with him?
    A fairly common sci-fi trope.
    I thought it was dumb writing. Just make something up like, Michael shares half of her DNA with her mother, that's why it might work.
    Yeah, Pike explicitly said that the only communications still working are ship-to-ship, with the range penalties that implies.

    Of course that still doesn't explain why Discovery didn't spore jump to ESD, or any other starbase where there might be ships docked and ready to fight.
  • centurian821centurian821 Member Posts: 274 Arc User
    Okay. It doesn't change my opinion about just running away, but if it's been addressed then that's fine.
  • thegrandnagus1thegrandnagus1 Member Posts: 5,165 Arc User
    Welp, I definitely want the DSC style Connie when it drops now that we've seen it properly.

    Hopefully it's not stuffed in lockboxes like the TOS T6. But it probably will be.

    There is no "probably" about it :p

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  • mirrorchaosmirrorchaos Member Posts: 9,844 Arc User
    edited April 2019
    Cons:
    So it's still a burnham layering, a little less thick than the previous episode, but still this episode is pretty thick in it.

    A Teenage alien mary sue, who knows everything of engineering, a leader and is rubbing shoulders with famous people.

    Pros: some dynamic between the starfleet characters and Terran Georgiou. She has clearly mellowed a little and very much in the center of things. Funny how a Terran, especially a former empress could be the key to Starfleet stability in a time of uncertainty.

    Saru is finally recognised for Discovery's possible promotion to captain. He has a heck of a lot of growing into the role to do, but i'm certain he'll make a fine ship captain.
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  • mirrorchaosmirrorchaos Member Posts: 9,844 Arc User
    edited April 2019
    szim wrote: »
    I realize that. I'm not questioning the fact that Sarek knew Michael's intentions. I question that Sarek and Amanda made it all the way to Xahea in the time it took Discovery to spore jump there. And if Sarek could feel this existential threat to the Federation, why didn't he bring a fleet of starships with him?

    As with anything to do with logic as much as it is to do with being a private citizen, Sarek has the power to do as he wishes within reason. He may have already called for reinforcements, but is not obliged to mention it since operational security is at risk due to section 31, and the crews of the Enterprise and Discovery do not need to know right away.
    Also I bet Ash left to get the Klingon cavalry.

    It would still take time to get to the empire, let alone getting L'rell going to the high council and getting some ships together. Although i'm sure there are a few crazy klingons out there who want a free hand like this to take out more starfleet ships. quite honestly, what does it serve the empire to get into a matter purely internal to the Federation? How exactly does it help the empire during TOS and TMP eras all the way short of Praxis?
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  • szimszim Member Posts: 2,503 Arc User
    szim wrote: »
    I thought it was dumb writing. Just make something up like, Michael shares half of her DNA with her mother, that's why it might work.
    That's literally what they said though... Burnham has the mitochondrial DNA from her mother, which allows her to wear the suit.

    Just one last thing on this. Mitochondrial DNA represents but a tiny fraction of all genetic information in a human cell. mDNA has 37 genes, cell DNA about 80'000 to 140'000 genes. They ignored the elephant in the room and focused on the tiny fly stuck to the wall. Why? It's anyone's guess.
  • mirrorchaosmirrorchaos Member Posts: 9,844 Arc User
    It would still take time to get to the empire, let alone getting L'rell going to the high council and getting some ships together. Although i'm sure there are a few crazy klingons out there who want a free hand like this to take out more starfleet ships. quite honestly, what does it serve the empire to get into a matter purely internal to the Federation? How exactly does it help the empire during TOS and TMP eras all the way short of Praxis?
    Discovery was right outside the Klingon Empire to begin with.

    And Control is a threat to ALL life in the galaxy, Klingons included, which is part of the reason why L'Rell let Pike go to Boreth in the first place. All Ash has to do is go "dude, this thing is going to kill everything, you included, if we don't stop it" Also, they get to show off thier shiny new ships to the Federation and scare them into staying away.

    L'Rell may have accepted it, but the rest of the council may not be so forward thinking. it has only been a year since the end of the war and not a lot of people trust L'Rell, let alone her own personal strength and strength of her house to keep the other houses at bay. you haven't explained this angle yet.

    it is still an internal matter to starfleet and section 31. it wouldn't matter if all life was at risk or not, Klingons won't lift a finger unless there is something in it for them to cast that purely internal matter aside. still not explained yet.
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  • ryan218ryan218 Member Posts: 36,106 Arc User
    L'Rell may have accepted it, but the rest of the council may not be so forward thinking.
    It doesn't matter, shes not sending the entire fleet of the Klingon Empire, and she doesn't need authorization from the entire council to mobilize a few ships for a personal endeavor.
    Klingons won't lift a finger unless there is something in it for them to cast that purely internal matter aside.
    This is entirely your headcanon.

    As far as we know, she's not sending anything. We don't know what happens in the next episode. This is a completely hypothetical conversation: Tyler could be going to fetch V'Ger out of a cupboard for all we know.
  • thegrandnagus1thegrandnagus1 Member Posts: 5,165 Arc User
    This is not a reply to any specific post, just general comments:

    Yes, I agree this episode was pretty much just filler and not "required" for the story. They almost could have skipped this episode and still been able to tell the next one just fine. That said, spending an hour in the Trek universe is more fun (to me) than spending that same hour watching (insert countless other things here), so I was fine with it. At the very least I got to see the disco Enterprise and more of Pike being the coolest guy in the room.

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