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Handguns in Star Trek

First, I would like to thank the devs for adding the Tommy gun to the game. I am looking forward to getting and using it. I'm not complaining, but since we have this and the shotgun, I would like to see handguns added to the game, as well. Thanks to time travel, the holodeck, Q, and other alien weirdness, we've seen handguns in use in several episodes of Star Trek, and in several different versions. I did some looking around the net to see which handguns were used, and in which versions of Star Trek. I found no information about handguns in Discovery. Here is the list of handguns and how many (other) versions of Trek had them.

M1911: 5 (All of them, 6 if you count "The Voyage Home" movie)

Walther P38: 4 (All except TNG)

Colt Single Action Army revolver: 3 (TOS, TNG, ENT)

Walther PPK: 2 (TNG, DS9)

Beretta 92: 2 (VOY, ENT)

The following handguns appeared in only one version of Trek: Colt Detective Special revolver, Luger, Colt Model 1903, Smith and Wesson Safety Hammerless revolver, Smith and Wesson model 10 revolver, Colt Police Positive revolver, Colt Official Police revolver, Type 14 Nambu, Colt 1860 Army revolver, HK P9s, and Smith and Wesson 15 revolver.

This is the information I found, but perhaps someone knows more about this than me, and can add to the list. However, please, let's not turn this into a debate about which guns are better. You can find that elsewhere on the net. Just saying, these were used in Star Trek, and I'd like to see some of them added to the game. Sulu had a collection of them. While I'm at it, can we also get a fedora?
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Comments

  • theraven2378theraven2378 Member Posts: 5,422 Arc User
    It would be nice if they added the Allied and German weapons from the Killing Game two parter in
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  • trennantrennan Member Posts: 2,225 Arc User
    Umm... first off glad this isn't a necro thread. We had a discussion like this way back when, I think a year or so ago. Though I think it was more on what skins they could use, more so than actual weapons.

    Not that I'm against this. I have looked up lore on such things. The only thing one can find there is. The TR-116B came out during DS9. There's the non-lethal version, a sticky bomb gun so to speak, the TR-120. However, in lieu of the TR-116B, the Federation opted to go with the Regenerative Phaser. Which fixed the reason the TR was made, to get around problems like dampers and radiogenic particles, the things that made regular phasers not work.
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  • captainkoltarcaptainkoltar Member Posts: 564 Arc User
    No thanks. This is Star Trek. Real world guns should be extremely rare or non existant. We have enough in game as it is.
  • tyler002tyler002 Member Posts: 1,440 Arc User
    Real guns more common? No thanks, making real weapons more common is essentially the same as removing the only thing that makes the Borg a threat.

    The Borg are already toothless enough as it is.
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  • darkbladejkdarkbladejk Member Posts: 1,593 Community Moderator
    No thanks. This is Star Trek. Real world guns should be extremely rare or non existant. We have enough in game as it is.

    The Klingons still use Bat'leths and several other forms of bladed weaponry which are out of date even by our standards today. The fact that a major power in the quadrant still uses various types of bladed weaponry like that shows that guns wouldn't necessarily have to be rare. I also have a hard time believing that a major galactic power at that time wouldn't use a real world gun type of weapon if they knew it would be effective, such as against the Borg. We saw how easily Picard roflstomped them with that Tommy Gun. If we're going to mix real world logic and game/show logic, then it would take some major major evidence to get me to believe that the federation or some other galactic power wouldn't use a real world gun or have something similar on standby just incase. Real world guns are little more than a metallic projectile propelled by the chemical reaction of exploding/expanding gun powder.
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  • theraven2378theraven2378 Member Posts: 5,422 Arc User
    No thanks. This is Star Trek. Real world guns should be extremely rare or non existant. We have enough in game as it is.

    The Klingons still use Bat'leths and several other forms of bladed weaponry which are out of date even by our standards today. The fact that a major power in the quadrant still uses various types of bladed weaponry like that shows that guns wouldn't necessarily have to be rare. I also have a hard time believing that a major galactic power at that time wouldn't use a real world gun type of weapon if they knew it would be effective, such as against the Borg. We saw how easily Picard roflstomped them with that Tommy Gun. If we're going to mix real world logic and game/show logic, then it would take some major major evidence to get me to believe that the federation or some other galactic power wouldn't use a real world gun or have something similar on standby just incase. Real world guns are little more than a metallic projectile propelled by the chemical reaction of exploding/expanding gun powder.

    Maybe the Federation in their short sight considered fire arms to be too barbaric, in a hostile universe that is a weakness
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  • lexusk19lexusk19 Member Posts: 1,181 Arc User
    Im game for it :) Make them holo guns like the upcoming tommy gun. More holodeck things in general need to be added. Great way to get more silly outfits and other stuff into the game :) ~Still dreaming of Captain Proton things~
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  • salazarrazesalazarraze Member Posts: 3,068 Arc User
    This is one of those things that "would be nice" but I wouldn't ever expect to happen.
  • trennantrennan Member Posts: 2,225 Arc User
    No thanks. This is Star Trek. Real world guns should be extremely rare or non existant. We have enough in game as it is.

    The Klingons still use Bat'leths and several other forms of bladed weaponry which are out of date even by our standards today. The fact that a major power in the quadrant still uses various types of bladed weaponry like that shows that guns wouldn't necessarily have to be rare. I also have a hard time believing that a major galactic power at that time wouldn't use a real world gun type of weapon if they knew it would be effective, such as against the Borg. We saw how easily Picard roflstomped them with that Tommy Gun. If we're going to mix real world logic and game/show logic, then it would take some major major evidence to get me to believe that the federation or some other galactic power wouldn't use a real world gun or have something similar on standby just incase. Real world guns are little more than a metallic projectile propelled by the chemical reaction of exploding/expanding gun powder.

    Maybe the Federation in their short sight considered fire arms to be too barbaric, in a hostile universe that is a weakness

    One of the main reasons they use a phaser is because it's "humane". I mean they only have two settings, Stun and Disintegrate with varying power settings for the latter. Which we know from the Varon-T disruptor, that disintegration is not a painless way to die. It's moment of extreme pain as nerves burn away to nothingness, and then a bit of ash. Not even a body to autopsy or return to the family. This is humane, well if you want to delude yourself into such things.

    Where are a firearm, sure, it will kill someone, but it can't disintegrate them(contrary to game mechanics). But, one can also survive being shot. This is why the U.S, Military teaches you to aim low center mass, the gut shot. This takes a minimum of two people out of the fight. The one that got shot, and one to tend to/remove the wounded. Which, while painful for the one shot, is far more humane. Since they have a chance to live.

    The only real reason I could think that persist in the use of phasers, is that there's less chance of a hull breach being caused from interior weapons fire. Remember, ships are shielded against such things from the outside, but not the inside.

    As for the Klingon use of melee weapons. This is actually a very smart choice on their part. Think about how a energy weapon is built. Bits of plastic and circuitry. It could stop one, maybe two melee hits before it becomes a pile trash. This give the melee weapon an advantage over energy weapons. As they can attack and defend without much worry.

    Energy weapons can also be controlled easily. The energy dampers on DS9 for example, prevent energy weapons from being more than stun weapons, without illegal modification. The TR, or any firearm, just ignores that, this is why they were designed in the first place, and used, until they decided to go with the Regenerative Phaser.
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  • angrytargangrytarg Member Posts: 9,685 Arc User
    No thanks. This is Star Trek. Real world guns should be extremely rare or non existant. We have enough in game as it is.

    I agree. I personally don't want "real" guns in Star Trek. Yes, they are in some episodes, but that's not the point.​​
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  • captainkoltarcaptainkoltar Member Posts: 564 Arc User
    > @darkbladejk said:
    > The Klingons still use Bat'leths and several other forms of bladed weaponry which are out of date even by our standards today.

    Realistically I agree with you. But the setting has rather firmly established that contemporary projectile weapons are out, for the major powers. To me, a sudden influx of projectile weapons would be as out of place as Force Powers, or magic.
  • patrickngopatrickngo Member Posts: 9,809 Arc User
    No thanks. This is Star Trek. Real world guns should be extremely rare or non existant. We have enough in game as it is.

    The Klingons still use Bat'leths and several other forms of bladed weaponry which are out of date even by our standards today. The fact that a major power in the quadrant still uses various types of bladed weaponry like that shows that guns wouldn't necessarily have to be rare. I also have a hard time believing that a major galactic power at that time wouldn't use a real world gun type of weapon if they knew it would be effective, such as against the Borg. We saw how easily Picard roflstomped them with that Tommy Gun. If we're going to mix real world logic and game/show logic, then it would take some major major evidence to get me to believe that the federation or some other galactic power wouldn't use a real world gun or have something similar on standby just incase. Real world guns are little more than a metallic projectile propelled by the chemical reaction of exploding/expanding gun powder.

    I can think of three reasons why, and they alll have to do with how much load your security crewmen (soldiers) have to ruck.

    1. Phasers have a compact form factor, meaning that they're not bulky
    2. ammunition dependence; Phasers do not have magazines constrained by volume limits the way chemical projectile weapons do, they also have no recoil, do not require precise aiming, (and don't even come with sights-just a lock and guidance system), shoot line straight tot he horizon, and can be set to stun. (figure out how much gear you'd need to have a personal weapon that fires to point of aim with no deflection to horizon ranges,and how much gear you'd need to make a gun capable of reliable non-lethal takedowns that reliably don't leave lasting damage.)
    3. Phasers can be used for welding, torch-cutting, hull cutting, damage control.. they're a multipurpose tool that can do everything from scribing a waterfall on a piece of plate, to cutting through an Abrams tank, to thermal-welding a damaged support beam. (or cutting through a collapsed bulkhead without also cutting the guy trapped under it.)

    all with a very, very, very, long running power supply that can (based on Tommy Riker's stranding) last for YEARS on a single charge.

    by comparison, guns require ammo or they're just awkward (and ineffective) clubs. That ammo takes up space, and weight, they're also single-purpose devices (your tommy gun won't help you save a trapped shipmate unless you can use it as a lever, and it's kinda fragile for that, as well as being short and awkward), to get near-functionality, you're going to be carrying a lot of extra gear that all takes up space and weight.

    all of this to have a weapon that is only arguably useful in very narrow conditions against very specific opponents that are also very rarely encountered.

    Oh, and final use for a Phaser: They can be used as improvised explosive devices without needing a toolkit to do it.

    in terms of 'bang for buck' the Phaser is a better over-all tool and device, as well as being a better weapon in 99% of situations that require a weapon, including but not limited to police as well as military situations.

    it's compact, it fills multiple roles, it is efficient, it is long ranged, it fires without needing to be aimed using sights, and it's versatile enough to replace several types of dedicated support equipment.

    The best gun-weapons that can be devised do not match the performance of even 22nd century models. For a service like Starfleet, where you have lots of both policing, and long-range operations without support, it's a superior weapon for the bulk of situations, and ideal in most.

    Thus, Starfleet ships probably do NOT have gunpowder weapons stocked in their armories, except possibly as replicator files for use in specific conditions by assigned specialists. because Guns require more skill to use. an idiot with a sniper rifle is less dangerous than (while he was alive) Carlos Hathcock with a smoothbore blunderbuss.

    Proficiency with firearms requires extensive (and expensive) practice. FBI stats show that the bulk of gunfights occur at about 7 meters or less, and in those, only about 30% produce wounds, never mind casualties. (This is why mass shooters like to select victim pools where the victims can't run, the exits are easily blocked off/doors chained shut, and police response will be delayed-it's a 'caged or canned hunt' scenario, because in situations where the victims CAN fight back, well...those rarely reach the point of being mass shootings and don't get reported on as a result.) Hollywood be condemned for their lies, firearms are not 'point and play'.

    but Phasers? phasers would be just that-because they shoot line straight, at point of aim, with no dispersion or deviation, no recoil or vibration, and can sustain either pulses or beams.

    aka if you brought a Phaser to a gunfight, you would most likely win, the exception being of course, against an opponent familiar with both and skilled with guns (because he'd be more likely to get that first shot kill first-unless he's as reluctant as you are to make real casualties.)
    whatever.

  • warpangelwarpangel Member Posts: 8,311 Arc User
    The game already has too many silly shield-ignoring magic bullet guns as it is.

    If they remove the magic bullets first then go right on ahead.
  • trennantrennan Member Posts: 2,225 Arc User
    warpangel wrote: »
    The game already has too many silly shield-ignoring magic bullet guns as it is.

    If they remove the magic bullets first then go right on ahead.

    Just the TR and the Shotgun. Everything else can barely touch this on shield pen. Well, melee weapons. However, PSG are pretty useless any how. One or two shots and they're gone. Armor and Resistances are more important.
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  • saurializardsaurializard Member Posts: 3,046 Arc User
    No thanks. This is Star Trek. Real world guns should be extremely rare or non existant. We have enough in game as it is.

    The Klingons still use Bat'leths and several other forms of bladed weaponry which are out of date even by our standards today. The fact that a major power in the quadrant still uses various types of bladed weaponry like that shows that guns wouldn't necessarily have to be rare. I also have a hard time believing that a major galactic power at that time wouldn't use a real world gun type of weapon if they knew it would be effective, such as against the Borg. We saw how easily Picard roflstomped them with that Tommy Gun. If we're going to mix real world logic and game/show logic, then it would take some major major evidence to get me to believe that the federation or some other galactic power wouldn't use a real world gun or have something similar on standby just incase. Real world guns are little more than a metallic projectile propelled by the chemical reaction of exploding/expanding gun powder.
    Isn't one of the main reasons Klingons still use swords because of their sacred mythology and culture, mostly "Kahless killed the devil with his badass sword and ours are made to honor him" and the whole "you insulted me, pull your sword and fight like a Klingon!".

    The rest of the species in the galaxy don't really have a mythology or cultural traditions around a type of weapons, except the Vulcans and their logic, and the Mirror Terrans and their daggers.

    And in the various shows, their blades have proven to be hilariously ineffective against human dexterity, fists and edge of hands (when they manage to get in melee range and don't get easily shot by the first non-redshirt and their standard phaser pistol).
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  • markhawkmanmarkhawkman Member Posts: 33,556 Arc User
    lexusk19 wrote: »
    Im game for it :) Make them holo guns like the upcoming tommy gun. More holodeck things in general need to be added. Great way to get more silly outfits and other stuff into the game :) ~Still dreaming of Captain Proton things~
    Well, it is doable. But it'd be a large chunk of dev time, which means it'd have to be part of a major release.
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  • shadowfang240shadowfang240 Member Posts: 30,948 Arc User
    No thanks. This is Star Trek. Real world guns should be extremely rare or non existant. We have enough in game as it is.

    The Klingons still use Bat'leths and several other forms of bladed weaponry which are out of date even by our standards today. The fact that a major power in the quadrant still uses various types of bladed weaponry like that shows that guns wouldn't necessarily have to be rare. I also have a hard time believing that a major galactic power at that time wouldn't use a real world gun type of weapon if they knew it would be effective, such as against the Borg. We saw how easily Picard roflstomped them with that Tommy Gun. If we're going to mix real world logic and game/show logic, then it would take some major major evidence to get me to believe that the federation or some other galactic power wouldn't use a real world gun or have something similar on standby just incase. Real world guns are little more than a metallic projectile propelled by the chemical reaction of exploding/expanding gun powder.
    Isn't one of the main reasons Klingons still use swords because of their sacred mythology and culture, mostly "Kahless killed the devil with his badass sword and ours are made to honor him" and the whole "you insulted me, pull your sword and fight like a Klingon!".

    The rest of the species in the galaxy don't really have a mythology or cultural traditions around a type of weapons, except the Vulcans and their logic, and the Mirror Terrans and their daggers.

    And in the various shows, their blades have proven to be hilariously ineffective against human dexterity, fists and edge of hands (when they manage to get in melee range and don't get easily shot by the first non-redshirt and their standard phaser pistol).

    explain the jem'hadar then; they use polearms - rather effectively, i might add - yet they have no cultural significance...hell, they barely have culture at all...and their only mythology involves the founders - which again, have no relation to kar'tarkins​​
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  • trennantrennan Member Posts: 2,225 Arc User
    No thanks. This is Star Trek. Real world guns should be extremely rare or non existant. We have enough in game as it is.

    The Klingons still use Bat'leths and several other forms of bladed weaponry which are out of date even by our standards today. The fact that a major power in the quadrant still uses various types of bladed weaponry like that shows that guns wouldn't necessarily have to be rare. I also have a hard time believing that a major galactic power at that time wouldn't use a real world gun type of weapon if they knew it would be effective, such as against the Borg. We saw how easily Picard roflstomped them with that Tommy Gun. If we're going to mix real world logic and game/show logic, then it would take some major major evidence to get me to believe that the federation or some other galactic power wouldn't use a real world gun or have something similar on standby just incase. Real world guns are little more than a metallic projectile propelled by the chemical reaction of exploding/expanding gun powder.
    Isn't one of the main reasons Klingons still use swords because of their sacred mythology and culture, mostly "Kahless killed the devil with his badass sword and ours are made to honor him" and the whole "you insulted me, pull your sword and fight like a Klingon!".

    The rest of the species in the galaxy don't really have a mythology or cultural traditions around a type of weapons, except the Vulcans and their logic, and the Mirror Terrans and their daggers.

    And in the various shows, their blades have proven to be hilariously ineffective against human dexterity, fists and edge of hands (when they manage to get in melee range and don't get easily shot by the first non-redshirt and their standard phaser pistol).

    Humans.

    Norse Mythology, such as Thor and Odin.

    Greek Mythology, Spartans come to mind here.

    Asian Mythology.

    Excalibur comes to mind here as well.

    Humans have a lot of history and mythology surrounding melee weapons.

    Also, Kahless killed Molor, a klingon warlord that was working with the fek'lhri. This was during the time when the dominion where still trying to enslave the klingons, as a warrior race working for them.
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  • theraven2378theraven2378 Member Posts: 5,422 Arc User
    edited April 4
    Against the Borg, a team armed with Tommy guns or AKs would have a better chance than a team armed with phasers, firearms and blades still have their places
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  • darkbladejkdarkbladejk Member Posts: 1,593 Community Moderator
    patrickngo wrote: »
    in terms of 'bang for buck' the Phaser is a better over-all tool and device, as well as being a better weapon in 99% of situations that require a weapon, including but not limited to police as well as military situations.

    The effectiveness of the Phaser isn't in question, nor was my post meant to call their effectiveness into question. All of the reasons you've stated for why Starfleet would prefer a Phaser in most cases are indeed valid reasons, and we both agree that in most cases a Phaser will give more bang for your buck than a modern gun will. My post was simply to say that just because a weapon is considered outdated it doesn't necessarily have to be rare. The Bat'leth was just the example I chose. Having a melee weapon like a Bat'leth in addition to their standard weapon(s) guarantees the user will have a weapon that can work no matter what.

    We both agree the Phaser is a better choice in most cases, however for those situations where the Phaser is ineffective or flat out doesn't work, what does the officer do then? The Borg are the primary example here. They typically adapt fairly quickly to energy based weapons, yet we've not seen a single case where they have adapted to projectile based weaponry or melee weaponry. An example being during the First Contact film where Worf took off the arm of that Borg using his Mek'leth. It's also in this same movie we get the infamous Tommy Gun scene. Although modern guns require ammo and are little more than clubs once that ammo runs out, a 24th century variant doesn't have to suffer from those same weaknesses if a few modifications are made to it. The Tr-116 we saw on DS9 had a micro-transporter on the weapon meaning it could hit anyone anywhere on the station. We also know micro-replication technology exists as we see Borg Nanites and other types of machines do it in Trek. A micro-replicator could easily be installed on a 24th century variant of a Tommy Gun or similar thus negating or virtually negating the ammo requirement and extra weight. I would venture to say weapons like that wouldn't be too difficult to whip up in a pinch if needed.

    Since we're already mixing game logic and real world logic, I have a hard time believing someone somewhere in Starfleet or other galactic power wouldn't recognize the value of having weapons similar to a modern gun, even if they're rarely used.
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  • rattler2rattler2 Member Posts: 47,406 Arc User
    trennan wrote: »
    Energy weapons can also be controlled easily. The energy dampers on DS9 for example, prevent energy weapons from being more than stun weapons, without illegal modification. The TR, or any firearm, just ignores that, this is why they were designed in the first place, and used, until they decided to go with the Regenerative Phaser.

    Actually... I believe the reason the TR-116 was being developed was for environments that render Phasers unusable.
    The rifle was developed by Starfleet Security for use in dampening fields or radiogenic environments where conventional energy weapons would be useless.
    https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/TR-116_rifle

    The development of Regenerative Phasers basically axed the TR-116. I'm just wondering why Starfleet didn't consider anti-Borg applications for the TR-116 after Regenerative Phasers were developed. Its kinda like how the Asgard in Stargate couldn't fight the Replicators. They would just focus on more and more advanced tech... only for it to get eaten and adapted by the Replicators. Yet a good old fashioned Earth gun was the most effective weapon against them. Starfleet seemed to do the same thing against the Borg without looking into the possibility that older tech based weapons like the TR might actually have a use against a deadly enemy.

    What was interesting though is farther down in the article on the TR-116, in the Apochrypha section...
    In the Star Trek: Deep Space Nine - Mission Gamma novel Lesser Evil, Lieutenant Sam Bowers tells of his experiences aboard the USS Budapest during the Battle of Sector 001. The Budapest was one of a handful of Starfleet vessels equipped with prototype TR-116s. When the Borg attempted to assimilate the ship and its crew, Bowers led a security team equipped with TR-116 rifles through the ship, with orders to eliminate any and all Borg drones. Because the weapons used projectiles instead of energy beams, the drone's deflector shielding was useless, and the Budapest crew were successful in stopping the Borg.

    Though these events are not mentioned in "Field of Fire", the statement about projectile weapons being effective against the Borg is at least partly supported by the scene in Star Trek: First Contact, during which Jean-Luc Picard uses a holographic Thompson submachine gun to kill two Borg drones.
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  • trennantrennan Member Posts: 2,225 Arc User
    rattler2 wrote: »
    trennan wrote: »
    Energy weapons can also be controlled easily. The energy dampers on DS9 for example, prevent energy weapons from being more than stun weapons, without illegal modification. The TR, or any firearm, just ignores that, this is why they were designed in the first place, and used, until they decided to go with the Regenerative Phaser.

    Actually... I believe the reason the TR-116 was being developed was for environments that render Phasers unusable.
    The rifle was developed by Starfleet Security for use in dampening fields or radiogenic environments where conventional energy weapons would be useless.
    https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/TR-116_rifle

    The development of Regenerative Phasers basically axed the TR-116. I'm just wondering why Starfleet didn't consider anti-Borg applications for the TR-116 after Regenerative Phasers were developed. Its kinda like how the Asgard in Stargate couldn't fight the Replicators. They would just focus on more and more advanced tech... only for it to get eaten and adapted by the Replicators. Yet a good old fashioned Earth gun was the most effective weapon against them. Starfleet seemed to do the same thing against the Borg without looking into the possibility that older tech based weapons like the TR might actually have a use against a deadly enemy.

    What was interesting though is farther down in the article on the TR-116, in the Apochrypha section...
    In the Star Trek: Deep Space Nine - Mission Gamma novel Lesser Evil, Lieutenant Sam Bowers tells of his experiences aboard the USS Budapest during the Battle of Sector 001. The Budapest was one of a handful of Starfleet vessels equipped with prototype TR-116s. When the Borg attempted to assimilate the ship and its crew, Bowers led a security team equipped with TR-116 rifles through the ship, with orders to eliminate any and all Borg drones. Because the weapons used projectiles instead of energy beams, the drone's deflector shielding was useless, and the Budapest crew were successful in stopping the Borg.

    Though these events are not mentioned in "Field of Fire", the statement about projectile weapons being effective against the Borg is at least partly supported by the scene in Star Trek: First Contact, during which Jean-Luc Picard uses a holographic Thompson submachine gun to kill two Borg drones.

    That's the reason why Cryptic brought them back, as anti-borg weaponry. Before R&D revamp to what we have now, the TR-116B use to be a fleet purchase and were bound to character when you purchased them. Now you can craft them or buy themoff the exchange.

    I stated that the TR was made to work in environments that phasers wouldn't in my first post here.
    trennan wrote: »
    Umm... first off glad this isn't a necro thread. We had a discussion like this way back when, I think a year or so ago. Though I think it was more on what skins they could use, more so than actual weapons.

    Not that I'm against this. I have looked up lore on such things. The only thing one can find there is. The TR-116B came out during DS9. There's the non-lethal version, a sticky bomb gun so to speak, the TR-120. However, in lieu of the TR-116B, the Federation opted to go with the Regenerative Phaser. Which fixed the reason the TR was made, to get around problems like dampers and radiogenic particles, the things that made regular phasers not work.

    As to why they pursued the Regenerative Phaser, instead of the TR. My guess is, again, the damper fields. In one episode of DS9 someone got a hold of a TR and was sniping people on DS9. This person was killed by Kira, when she sniped him with another TR. You know, kind of bad when one can get around such things with a TR, without having to illegally modify their weapon.

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  • rattler2rattler2 Member Posts: 47,406 Arc User
    trennan wrote: »
    This person was killed by Kira, when she sniped him with another TR.

    It was Ezri.
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  • saurializardsaurializard Member Posts: 3,046 Arc User
    edited April 5
    trennan wrote: »
    No thanks. This is Star Trek. Real world guns should be extremely rare or non existant. We have enough in game as it is.

    The Klingons still use Bat'leths and several other forms of bladed weaponry which are out of date even by our standards today. The fact that a major power in the quadrant still uses various types of bladed weaponry like that shows that guns wouldn't necessarily have to be rare. I also have a hard time believing that a major galactic power at that time wouldn't use a real world gun type of weapon if they knew it would be effective, such as against the Borg. We saw how easily Picard roflstomped them with that Tommy Gun. If we're going to mix real world logic and game/show logic, then it would take some major major evidence to get me to believe that the federation or some other galactic power wouldn't use a real world gun or have something similar on standby just incase. Real world guns are little more than a metallic projectile propelled by the chemical reaction of exploding/expanding gun powder.
    Isn't one of the main reasons Klingons still use swords because of their sacred mythology and culture, mostly "Kahless killed the devil with his badass sword and ours are made to honor him" and the whole "you insulted me, pull your sword and fight like a Klingon!".

    The rest of the species in the galaxy don't really have a mythology or cultural traditions around a type of weapons, except the Vulcans and their logic, and the Mirror Terrans and their daggers.

    And in the various shows, their blades have proven to be hilariously ineffective against human dexterity, fists and edge of hands (when they manage to get in melee range and don't get easily shot by the first non-redshirt and their standard phaser pistol).

    Humans.

    Norse Mythology, such as Thor and Odin.

    Greek Mythology, Spartans come to mind here.

    Asian Mythology.

    Excalibur comes to mind here as well.

    Humans have a lot of history and mythology surrounding melee weapons.

    Also, Kahless killed Molor, a klingon warlord that was working with the fek'lhri. This was during the time when the dominion where still trying to enslave the klingons, as a warrior race working for them.
    Here's the thing with humans in Star Trek, which is a big point in the franchise and was bashed into viewers' skull at the beginning of TNG:

    They have Outgrown Such Silly Superstitions.

    That's my point. For humans in the 24th century, any religion, mythology, holy book, "mythical" artefact is just that, mythology. Not forgotten but irrelevant and viewed as fiction.

    Contrasted to the Klingons who still use the myth of Kahless to define themselves.

    A good example in the game would be when Worf lit the Beacon of Kahless which "forced" back the empire into the fight for the last battle against the Hur'q.

    For the humans, that'd be the equivalent of someone pulling out Excalibur and shouting an epic speech, appointing themself as the leader of the human forces... except the most common reaction would be something like:

    #TASforSTO
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  • stormturmoilstormturmoil Member Posts: 19 Arc User
    Another thing to consider is that Visually at least, the Borg in STO Have adapted to Kinetic weapons - by creating Tactical Drones and variants that supplement the adaptive shields with more cybernetic implants, including heavier integral armour

    Now, I don't actually know if they benefit from increased Kinetic and Physical resistances in Game to reflect that - it would be appropriate - but there is allegedly an issue there: The shields make energy weapons only operable for a few shots, but most Energy Weapons tend to have no issues with Kinetic resistant Armour, where as the Adaptive shields let most kinetic and Physical threats though, but Borg have no pain response, severely increased thresholds of trauma, Nanite-based Regeneration and integrated armour.

    So, in theory it's all trade offs. The Energy Weapon will usually kill with each of it's few shots, but then you have to remodulate; the Kinetic Weapon goes through the shields, but requires multiple hits to reliably stop the Drone, and has an Ammunition limit (likely solved by Replicator technology, but that's still stuff you have to carry, transporter resupply notwithstanding).
  • mustrumridcully0mustrumridcully0 Member Posts: 12,280 Arc User
    edited April 5
    In the end, what people seem to sometimes forget when discussing the famous Tommy Gun incident on the Holodeck against the Borg: In the smae movies, phasers are repeatedly successfully used to kill multiple Borgs before they adapt. Even after the Borg adapt to them, modifications by the crew allowed additional deadly shots before the Borg adapted again.

    I remember actually going back to the First Contact scenes, and counting how many Borg are killed by that Tommy Gun. It was exactly 2 confirmed Drones that were killed.
    In the first fight against the Borg Drones on the Enterprise, there are actually 5 confirmed Phaser kills (obviously I don't count Worfs Phaser Butt kill, only actual phaser shots where we see drones go down).
    So all we know is that the Borg require time to adapt to new weapons. It does not actually mean that bullets always ignore Borg Shields. It just means that if they don't expect whatever weapon you are using - even if it's bullets - you can get some shots in.

    TNG also had an episode (A Fistful of Datas), where Worf modifies his communicator to create a shield to protect against bullet projectiles from a holodeck program where the safeties were off.
    So we have clear evidence that shields can protect against bullets, at least with some preparation (but even if your shield is jury-rigged from a communicator!).

    It is fanon (and maybe STO canon, but not Star Trek canon) that Borg can't adapt to bullets, or shields cannot protect against bullets. Canon either makes no definite statement, or even clearly contradicts that.

    And that doesn't even go into the question whether the bullets from a holographic Tommy Gun are replicated, or force fields and thus energy weapons in Star Trek terms.
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  • warpangelwarpangel Member Posts: 8,311 Arc User
    In the end, what people seem to sometimes forget when discussing the famous Tommy Gun incident on the Holodeck against the Borg: In the smae movies, phasers are repeatedly successfully used to kill multiple Borgs before they adapt. Even after the Borg adapt to them, modifications by the crew allowed additional deadly shots before the Borg adapted again.

    I remember actually going back to the First Contact scenes, and counting how many Borg are killed by that Tommy Gun. It was exactly 2 confirmed Drones that were killed.
    In the first fight against the Borg Drones on the Enterprise, there are actually 5 confirmed Phaser kills (obviously I don't count Worfs Phaser Butt kill, only actual phaser shots where we see drones go down).
    So all we know is that the Borg require time to adapt to new weapons. It does not actually mean that bullets always ignore Borg Shields. It just means that if they don't expect whatever weapon you are using - even if it's bullets - you can get some shots in.

    TNG also had an episode (A Fistful of Datas), where Worf modifies his communicator to create a shield to protect against bullet projectiles from a holodeck program where the safeties were off.
    So we have clear evidence that shields can protect against bullets, at least with some preparation (but even if your shield is jury-rigged from a communicator!).

    It is fanon (and maybe STO canon, but not Star Trek canon) that Borg can't adapt to bullets, or shields cannot protect against bullets. Canon either makes no definite statement, or even clearly contradicts that.

    And that doesn't even go into the question whether the bullets from a holographic Tommy Gun are replicated, or force fields and thus energy weapons in Star Trek terms.
    That's right. Even in STO, the issue isn't related the borg specifically, but that they've made projectiles penetrate shields in general in ground combat.

    Ironically, the exact opposite effect to the way projectiles are handled in space, where they are relatively weak against shields (also non-canon).
  • darkbladejkdarkbladejk Member Posts: 1,593 Community Moderator
    In the end, what people seem to sometimes forget when discussing the famous Tommy Gun incident on the Holodeck against the Borg: In the smae movies, phasers are repeatedly successfully used to kill multiple Borgs before they adapt. Even after the Borg adapt to them, modifications by the crew allowed additional deadly shots before the Borg adapted again.

    I remember actually going back to the First Contact scenes, and counting how many Borg are killed by that Tommy Gun. It was exactly 2 confirmed Drones that were killed.
    In the first fight against the Borg Drones on the Enterprise, there are actually 5 confirmed Phaser kills (obviously I don't count Worfs Phaser Butt kill, only actual phaser shots where we see drones go down).
    So all we know is that the Borg require time to adapt to new weapons. It does not actually mean that bullets always ignore Borg Shields. It just means that if they don't expect whatever weapon you are using - even if it's bullets - you can get some shots in.

    TNG also had an episode (A Fistful of Datas), where Worf modifies his communicator to create a shield to protect against bullet projectiles from a holodeck program where the safeties were off.
    So we have clear evidence that shields can protect against bullets, at least with some preparation (but even if your shield is jury-rigged from a communicator!).

    It is fanon (and maybe STO canon, but not Star Trek canon) that Borg can't adapt to bullets, or shields cannot protect against bullets. Canon either makes no definite statement, or even clearly contradicts that.

    And that doesn't even go into the question whether the bullets from a holographic Tommy Gun are replicated, or force fields and thus energy weapons in Star Trek terms.

    The effectiveness of the Phaser isn't what's in question, never has been from my understanding of the discussion so far. Phasers and similar energy weapons can indeed kill Borg. In fact we've seen plenty of instances of the Borg being killed by Phasers and energy weapons out of all the movies and series in Trek that have featured them, and plenty more times if we were to count games as well. We know Phasers and energy weapons can kill Borg. The downside is that the Borg will eventually adapt to the weapon requiring remodulation, or flat out making the weapon useless. If the user can manage to remodulate in time then generally they can keep going until the Borg adapt again. If they can't remodulate for whatever reason, what do they do then? Thus enter the discussion of the modern gun type of weapons and their 25th century counterparts.

    From what we've seen on screen Borg can be engaged in melee combat as we've seen Worf go hand to hand with an assimilated Picard. We also see Data quite literally break a Borg's neck. We also see Worf hack the arm off of a Borg drone with a Mek'leth, and of course we also have the Tommy Gun scene. In all of these examples we've never seen the Borg adapt to the weapons. The Borg also typically don't react to something unless they consider it a threat. A big thing to keep in mind with melee weapons like the Mek'leth or something like a Tr is it's not just the kinetic energy the Borg have to contend with, but the actual physical object itself as well. Another example of this is when Species 8472 blew up that planet in Voyager and pieces of debris starting hammering that Borg cube. The cube may have been able to deflect most of the heat energy and such, but couldn't stop the overall rock itself. I know that's not the most perfect analogy but hopefully you see what I'm getting at.

    The TNG episode A Fistful of Datas is a valid example but only to a point. If you recall there was concern about the effectiveness of the shield and even working. I guarantee you if the program was using phasers Worf would've been up the creek. However that's a side argument for a different day. This episode does show that shields capable of blocking out bullets can indeed be created. The big question though is whether the Borg have such a shield that can block them out, and all the evidence we've seen so far of them getting smacked by kinetic based anything says no, they don't have such a shield.

    As to the thing with the Tommy Gun's bullets in that scene, they're the same as a real bullet since the safeties were off. That's why Worf even needed that shield to start with on the Holodeck in A Fistful of Datas. If something in the future shows the Borg being able to block bullets then that would answer that question. As it sits right now though, all evidence we have suggests they either don't have those types of shields, or Starfleet has simply found the great weakness of the Borg. Until something contradicts what we have in the game, personally I wouldn't mind seeing at least one handgun make its way into the game as it makes kinetic/physical damage another viable choice for ground combat.
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  • mustrumridcully0mustrumridcully0 Member Posts: 12,280 Arc User
    As to the thing with the Tommy Gun's bullets in that scene, they're the same as a real bullet since the safeties were off. That's why Worf even needed that shield to start with on the Holodeck in A Fistful of Datas. If something in the future shows the Borg being able to block bullets then that would answer that question. As it sits right now though, all evidence we have suggests they either don't have those types of shields, or Starfleet has simply found the great weakness of the Borg.

    Not even that - what we have shown with the Tommy Gun is that it always takes time for the Borg to adapt to one weapon. It does not show they can't. Or that it would take very long. Because it takes at least 5 dead Borg before the Borg adapt to phasers. Maybe it also needs 5 dead borg to adapt to bullets.

    (I am actually not even sure how many Borg are killed in melee, maybe they can even adapt to that. Though I could see why they don't - melee attacks are slow, and could be confused with mere physical actions to operate devices. The false postiives might be awkward, and with those assimilation tubes, there is a good chance that melee is going to not lose you a Borg, but lose you one martial artist and gain you one martial artist Drone.)


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  • warpangelwarpangel Member Posts: 8,311 Arc User
    edited April 5
    In the end, what people seem to sometimes forget when discussing the famous Tommy Gun incident on the Holodeck against the Borg: In the smae movies, phasers are repeatedly successfully used to kill multiple Borgs before they adapt. Even after the Borg adapt to them, modifications by the crew allowed additional deadly shots before the Borg adapted again.

    I remember actually going back to the First Contact scenes, and counting how many Borg are killed by that Tommy Gun. It was exactly 2 confirmed Drones that were killed.
    In the first fight against the Borg Drones on the Enterprise, there are actually 5 confirmed Phaser kills (obviously I don't count Worfs Phaser Butt kill, only actual phaser shots where we see drones go down).
    So all we know is that the Borg require time to adapt to new weapons. It does not actually mean that bullets always ignore Borg Shields. It just means that if they don't expect whatever weapon you are using - even if it's bullets - you can get some shots in.

    TNG also had an episode (A Fistful of Datas), where Worf modifies his communicator to create a shield to protect against bullet projectiles from a holodeck program where the safeties were off.
    So we have clear evidence that shields can protect against bullets, at least with some preparation (but even if your shield is jury-rigged from a communicator!).

    It is fanon (and maybe STO canon, but not Star Trek canon) that Borg can't adapt to bullets, or shields cannot protect against bullets. Canon either makes no definite statement, or even clearly contradicts that.

    And that doesn't even go into the question whether the bullets from a holographic Tommy Gun are replicated, or force fields and thus energy weapons in Star Trek terms.

    The effectiveness of the Phaser isn't what's in question, never has been from my understanding of the discussion so far. Phasers and similar energy weapons can indeed kill Borg. In fact we've seen plenty of instances of the Borg being killed by Phasers and energy weapons out of all the movies and series in Trek that have featured them, and plenty more times if we were to count games as well. We know Phasers and energy weapons can kill Borg. The downside is that the Borg will eventually adapt to the weapon requiring remodulation, or flat out making the weapon useless. If the user can manage to remodulate in time then generally they can keep going until the Borg adapt again. If they can't remodulate for whatever reason, what do they do then? Thus enter the discussion of the modern gun type of weapons and their 25th century counterparts.

    From what we've seen on screen Borg can be engaged in melee combat as we've seen Worf go hand to hand with an assimilated Picard. We also see Data quite literally break a Borg's neck. We also see Worf hack the arm off of a Borg drone with a Mek'leth, and of course we also have the Tommy Gun scene. In all of these examples we've never seen the Borg adapt to the weapons. The Borg also typically don't react to something unless they consider it a threat. A big thing to keep in mind with melee weapons like the Mek'leth or something like a Tr is it's not just the kinetic energy the Borg have to contend with, but the actual physical object itself as well. Another example of this is when Species 8472 blew up that planet in Voyager and pieces of debris starting hammering that Borg cube. The cube may have been able to deflect most of the heat energy and such, but couldn't stop the overall rock itself. I know that's not the most perfect analogy but hopefully you see what I'm getting at.

    The TNG episode A Fistful of Datas is a valid example but only to a point. If you recall there was concern about the effectiveness of the shield and even working. I guarantee you if the program was using phasers Worf would've been up the creek. However that's a side argument for a different day. This episode does show that shields capable of blocking out bullets can indeed be created. The big question though is whether the Borg have such a shield that can block them out, and all the evidence we've seen so far of them getting smacked by kinetic based anything says no, they don't have such a shield.

    As to the thing with the Tommy Gun's bullets in that scene, they're the same as a real bullet since the safeties were off. That's why Worf even needed that shield to start with on the Holodeck in A Fistful of Datas. If something in the future shows the Borg being able to block bullets then that would answer that question. As it sits right now though, all evidence we have suggests they either don't have those types of shields, or Starfleet has simply found the great weakness of the Borg. Until something contradicts what we have in the game, personally I wouldn't mind seeing at least one handgun make its way into the game as it makes kinetic/physical damage another viable choice for ground combat.
    We don't have any (canon) evidence about borg being unable to adapt to bullets. They have only ever been seen shot with bullets that once. Not even real bullets at that, holographic bullets, which are not the same as real bullets even though turning the safeties off makes them lethal. As already established, they never adapt to anything until after a few deaths. This scene therefore proves absolutely nothing.

    It's simply completely implausible that borg couldn't block bullets. As if nobody before Picard ever thought to use a gun against them? Starfleet had been studying ways to fight them for years, never mind all other cultures they've attacked over centuries. Picard himself appeared very sure the holographic tommygun would work before he trapped himself in a holodeck with two drones. If this were a general condition of them instead of just a new weapon they hadn't yet adapted to, why wasn't his first order before engaging the borg to replicate some guns? Or after seeing it work, if he really didn't know before and was just showing false bravado. That would be a ridiculously stupid plot hole. Or Voyager, most of which took place after FC. Even Seven of Nine never went to Janeway & co and mentioned that "oh, btw, drones are totally helpless against projectile weapons" no matter how bad the situation was.

    Melee attacks are an entirely different subject. In this a good reference is the goa'uld shields in Stargate, which are more or less immune to bullets but allow slower-moving objects to pass. This is intentionally done to allow the user to interact with his enviroment without having to lower his shield. Just because the borg don't adapt to melee doesn't mean they are incapable of it, just that they wouldn't normally want to because then they wouldn't be able to touch anything with their shields up. And absent the Plot Armor of the hero characters or the general invulnerability of species 8472, anyone attempting to melee a drone would almost certainly get assimilated for his troubles.

    And shields in general block physical objects all the time, not just Worf's jury-rigged commbadge. Like torpedoes...in almost every space battle ever. Including borg battles. The borg are also seen specifically adapting to torpedoes. Even jail cells have shields in place instead of bars and they block people just fine.
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