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Star Trek Discovery Season 2, Episode 10: "The Red Angel" (Spoiler Warning)

mustrumridcully0mustrumridcully0 Member Posts: 12,360 Arc User
If you didn't know - the new officer entering the bridge taking over Airiam's position is played by the original Season 1 actress who played Airiam. I am not exactly sure why she stopped playing Airiam, one rumor I heard was that she had allergy problems with the make-up. (Farscape and Andromeda fans might remember other actors having problem with their and having to lower their involvement in the series.)

I actually liked the techno-babble this episode, it seemed to actually make sense within the context of the show. A Time Crystal was also used by Harry Mudd in his Season 1 episode. They are a real thing, but despite the name don't really have anything to do with time travel, but represent a system undergoing a periodic, self-repeating cycle.

Despite that, one thing was missing - the never really explicitly said that if this if the Red Angel is really future Burnham, she'd know of the plan and could prepare herself for it. Now, of course the Red Angel has no choice but to save herself (if you can guarantee that no one can save her but the Red Angel, which only Spock fully acknowledged - but the rest seemed less understanding of that?), but one has to wonder if she can't prepare some counter-measures. So if she falls into the trap, then either because she has limitations that they can't beat, or she needs to want to be captured. If the latter was the case, she could have that easier.

Of course, since the Red Angel turns out to be Burnhams mother, not Burnham herself, she cannot necessarily anticipate counters, but the Disco team had no way of knowing.
That the Red Angel doesn't turn out to be Burnham after all, makes one wonder: Did Culber win his Doctor-grade in the lottery? ;) Of course, there are alternate explanations: 1) The Red Angel will become Burnham. 2) The signature they found isn't really from the Red Angel, and instead was placed by someone for other reasons. It could have been a trap, or it could have been that they found out the Red Angel was looking for that signature. Maybe Burnhams mother was "stuck" in the suite and only went around saving Burnham, and the Red Burst stuff happens when Burnham takes over the suite, for example.

I don't like the idea of Section 31 developing its own time travel tech, but on the other hand, time travel tech in Star Trek is not that hard - Kirk is after all uses it as well. Interestingly at least, the Section 31 tech seems to require a rare material (Time Crystals), so that limits the availability of the tech far more than just warping around the sun.
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Comments

  • reyan01reyan01 Member Posts: 12,422 Arc User
    Have to admit, it was a damned good twist though - entirely unexpected!
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  • stoutesstoutes Member Posts: 4,219 Arc User
    I was .. burning to see... the occupant of the suit.
  • szimszim Member Posts: 2,350 Arc User
    It was almost comical how desperately they tried to make you care about Airiam's death. And had we known anything about her except that she once used to walk on a beach with her husband and then had an accident on her way home, that might have worked. Alas, she was just some extra with less than one line of dialogue per episode on average. All that lost potential.. Imagine they had done some actual character development in season 1.

    Apart from that, the episode was.. ok. Turns out that angel suit, that looked so futuristic so it must be from the future (great writing, sigh), was made in the past. By Burnham's mother. Who was working for section 31. To gain an advantage in a temporal war against the Klingons. And despite the red angel's brain pattern and mambo jumbo waves matching Michael Burnham's, it's actually her mother.

    I'm all for unexpected plot twists, as long as they make sense. Saying one thing in one episode and then contradicting the same thing in the next episode (or even the same episode) is not a plot twist, it's bad writing. Plain and simple.
  • vengefuldjinnvengefuldjinn Member Posts: 1,497 Arc User
    szim wrote: »
    It was almost comical how desperately they tried to make you care about Airiam's death.

    What I though was odd was they made such a big deal with Airiam's funeral, yet when Culber died, NOTHING.
    Culber was a more vested character, Airiam maybe not so much.

    Was it was because the writers knew it was not the end of Culber's story? - dunno
    Is it THE END of Airiam's story? - dunno

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  • thegrandnagus1thegrandnagus1 Member Posts: 3,305 Arc User
    So, the whole "Burnham on the verge of tears" thing is getting old. For once it was actually warranted considering the info she learned. But they've played that card half a dozen times already before this episode. Use someone crying sparingly, not every other episode. She's becoming a parody.

    About the Red Angel being her mother. It's just another plot point about Burnham, which is also getting old. She started the Klingon war, she is the "daughter" of the mirror Emperor, her mother is the Red Angel. Apparently the entire Trek universe revolves around Burnham now, which is ridiculous.

    It's one thing to have a "main character". Plenty of shows do it, and that's fine. But for the love of god, don't make every single thing in the universe about them. It's dumb.

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  • nrobbiecnrobbiec Member Posts: 679 Arc User
    > @thegrandnagus1 said:
    > About the Red Angel being her mother. It's just another plot point about Burnham, which is also getting old. She started the Klingon war, she is the "daughter" of the mirror Emperor, her mother is the Red Angel. Apparently the entire Trek universe revolves around Burnham now, which is ridiculous.
    >
    > It's one thing to have a "main character". Plenty of shows do it, and that's fine. But for the love of god, don't make every single thing in the universe about them. It's dumb.

    This is not a first in Star Trek. The protagonists do tend to be the centre of universe altering events.

    To parallel your comment:
    Sisko was at one of the most historic battles in Starfleet history. And one of very few to survive.
    Sisko started the Dominion War.
    Influential in the Terran Rebellion almost like the father of the revolution over there.
    Is a literal demigod. Omnipotent beings made his existence happen.

    Similar sentiments can be echoed for Picard, Janeway, Archer and especially Kirk who is revered by people centuries later.

    Within their own shows the universe kind of does revolve around the protags. This isnt new and likely the same will be said of future ones.
  • thegrandnagus1thegrandnagus1 Member Posts: 3,305 Arc User
    nrobbiec wrote: »
    > @thegrandnagus1 said:
    > About the Red Angel being her mother. It's just another plot point about Burnham, which is also getting old. She started the Klingon war, she is the "daughter" of the mirror Emperor, her mother is the Red Angel. Apparently the entire Trek universe revolves around Burnham now, which is ridiculous.
    >
    > It's one thing to have a "main character". Plenty of shows do it, and that's fine. But for the love of god, don't make every single thing in the universe about them. It's dumb.

    This is not a first in Star Trek. The protagonists do tend to be the centre of universe altering events.

    To parallel your comment:
    Sisko was at one of the most historic battles in Starfleet history. And one of very few to survive.
    Sisko started the Dominion War.
    Influential in the Terran Rebellion almost like the father of the revolution over there.
    Is a literal demigod. Omnipotent beings made his existence happen.

    Similar sentiments can be echoed for Picard, Janeway, Archer and especially Kirk who is revered by people centuries later.

    Within their own shows the universe kind of does revolve around the protags. This isnt new and likely the same will be said of future ones.

    You aren't wrong that there have been some very important characters in other shows. The difference is Burnham is an "important character" on steroids. They have stuffed what would normally be an entire series worth of "special character coincidences" in just 30 episodes. At some point it gets ridiculous even considering the previous examples you cited.

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  • valoreahvaloreah Member Posts: 9,966 Arc User
    edited March 22
    You aren't wrong that there have been some very important characters in other shows. The difference is Burnham is an "important character" on steroids.

    No more so than Kirk, Spock, McCoy, Picard, Riker, Worf, Data, Janeway, Seven of Nine, Archer et. al. on their respective television shows.

    It is also incorrect that she started the Klingon war. It has been pointed out ad nauseam that the T'Kuvma intended to start the war, no matter what Burnham did.

    She is the star of the show. Burnham is the main character and the story is being told through her. This has been known from the get-go.

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  • thegrandnagus1thegrandnagus1 Member Posts: 3,305 Arc User
    valoreah wrote: »
    You aren't wrong that there have been some very important characters in other shows. The difference is Burnham is an "important character" on steroids.

    No more so than Kirk, Spock, McCoy, Picard, Riker, Worf, Data, Janeway, Seven of Nine, Archer et. al. on their respective television shows.

    Somehow you accidentally left out the part after the sentence you quoted, which addresses your very response.

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  • valoreahvaloreah Member Posts: 9,966 Arc User
    Because it is a misnomer that "everything in the universe revolves around" Burnham.
    Dear Devs: I enjoyed the Legacy of Romulus expansion much more than the Delta Rising expansion. .
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  • nrobbiecnrobbiec Member Posts: 679 Arc User
    I think it's a subjective matter as to whether it is done to a degree that prevents it from being enjoyable.

    But it is most definitely a trope of the franchise so no one can say its isolated to discovery. Our sto protags are even cut from the same cloth.
  • thegrandnagus1thegrandnagus1 Member Posts: 3,305 Arc User
    valoreah wrote: »
    Because it is a misnomer that "everything in the universe revolves around" Burnham.

    I did not say that in the statement I am referring to:

    They have stuffed what would normally be an entire series worth of "special character coincidences" in just 30 episodes. At some point it gets ridiculous even considering the previous examples you cited.

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  • maxtboommaxtboom Member Posts: 8 Arc User
    Very sad to see Spock use the term 'Grandfather paradox' in such a loose, if not incorrect way. Spock of all people...
  • valoreahvaloreah Member Posts: 9,966 Arc User
    I did not say that in the statement I am referring to:

    No, but you did say it here -
    So, the whole "Burnham on the verge of tears" thing is getting old. For once it was actually warranted considering the info she learned. But they've played that card half a dozen times already before this episode. Use someone crying sparingly, not every other episode. She's becoming a parody.

    About the Red Angel being her mother. It's just another plot point about Burnham, which is also getting old. She started the Klingon war, she is the "daughter" of the mirror Emperor, her mother is the Red Angel. Apparently the entire Trek universe revolves around Burnham now, which is ridiculous.

    It's one thing to have a "main character". Plenty of shows do it, and that's fine. But for the love of god, don't make every single thing in the universe about them. It's dumb.


    Dear Devs: I enjoyed the Legacy of Romulus expansion much more than the Delta Rising expansion. .
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  • somtaawkharsomtaawkhar Member Posts: 5,890 Arc User
    edited March 22
    Theory time.

    The reason why the Red Angel saved the people of that Church and took them to Terralysium is because they go on to become Craft's ancestors, and Craft, his wife, and his daughter, are in fact Burnham, and Burnham's parents.

    Jacob is probably Burnham's ancestor.
  • thegrandnagus1thegrandnagus1 Member Posts: 3,305 Arc User
    edited March 22
    valoreah wrote: »
    I did not say that in the statement I am referring to:

    No, but you did say it here -

    We are in agreement.

    Theory time.

    The reason why the Red Angel saved the people of that Church and took them to Terralysium is because they go on to become Craft's ancestors, and Craft, his wife, and his daughter, are in fact Burnham, and Burnham's parents.

    Jacob is probably Burnham's ancestor.

    Sure, why not. It would go well with everything else being about her.

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  • shadowfang240shadowfang240 Member Posts: 31,253 Arc User
    nrobbiec wrote: »
    To parallel your comment:
    Sisko was at one of the most historic battles in Starfleet history. And one of very few to survive.
    Sisko started the Dominion War.
    Influential in the Terran Rebellion almost like the father of the revolution over there.
    Is a literal demigod. Omnipotent beings made his existence happen.

    and let's not forget: Was the father of the Bell Riots​​
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  • valoreahvaloreah Member Posts: 9,966 Arc User
    Theory time.

    The reason why the Red Angel saved the people of that Church and took them to Terralysium is because they go on to become Craft's ancestors, and Craft, his wife, and his daughter, are in fact Burnham, and Burnham's parents.

    Jacob is probably Burnham's ancestor.

    Still on the fence about this. Part of me is still inclined to believe saving that group of folk was random as the RA was attempting to save some of humanity and placing them on a planet far enough from the Federation where future AI was wiping everything out.

    I always felt Burnham being the RA was too obvious the choice, especially since Spock would have instantly known it from his mind-meld. Once Leland said Burnham's mother was a "gifted engineer", I knew RA was going to be her.

    I'm guessing Burnham or her mother are the originators of the AI that's trying to wipe everything out.
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  • shadowfang240shadowfang240 Member Posts: 31,253 Arc User
    edited March 22
    so, something else of interest...apparently in star trek, plasma reactors - at least ones fueled by deuterium - put out SIGNIFICANTLY more energy than M/AM reactors - aka warp cores

    so why are races not using that for warp travel and primary ship power instead?​​
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  • foxman00foxman00 Member Posts: 466 Arc User
    Well, I never believed it when people were making there guesses, but the Red Angel is not an Iconian.

    Thank god we can put that to rest :)
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  • aten66aten66 Member Posts: 650 Arc User
    so, something else of interest...apparently in star trek, plasma reactors - at least ones fueled by deuterium - put out SIGNIFICANTLY more energy than M/AM reactors - aka warp cores

    so why are races not using that for warp travel and primary ship power instead?​​

    Just because their energy output is significant enough to be equal to 12 warp cores, does not necessarily mean it can be utilized as an engine.

    I mean, nuclear reactors harness nuclear fission for energy, but that doesn’t mean that energy can be used by a car as fuel to make it go, unless it was converted to electricity. For one thing the energy output might burn it out if it was a direct connection. The analogy could probably be applicable to a starship and a plasma reactor.

    I’m probably not explainin* that exactly correct, I’m no nuclear physicist or scientist of any kind, but this would be my best approximation.

    As for Burnham’s mother being the RA, I almost thought for half a second that it was her instead of Burnham, but psyched myself out since they reaffirmed how her parent’s had died. As for S31 having time travel technology at their disposal, it’s definitely their MO to be cutting edge, but once the Department of Temporal Investigations got set up, I can imagine they confiscated and blacklisted all information about Project: Daedalus from S31’s archives.

    It makes me curious, though, what happened in the Mirror Universe, did Georgiou commission a similar project in the MU that resulted in her Burnham’s parents deaths? I know more than likely she just TRIBBLE Leeland’s files, but that would be interesting point for a MU novel, or just some fan fiction I guess. Maybe in the MU, Burnham’s Father is the mysterious ‘Emperor’ that showed up one day with ‘Godlike powers’.
  • redvengeredvenge Member Posts: 1,412 Arc User
    so, something else of interest...apparently in star trek, plasma reactors - at least ones fueled by deuterium - put out SIGNIFICANTLY more energy than M/AM reactors - aka warp cores

    so why are races not using that for warp travel and primary ship power instead?​​
    I got a better question. Why does Airiam get a brand new cyborg body after her accident and when Pike has his accident, he gets a busted wheelchair with a blinking light?

    And I thought our Department of Veteran's Affairs was terrible.
  • mirrorchaosmirrorchaos Member Posts: 9,757 Arc User
    redvenge wrote: »
    so, something else of interest...apparently in star trek, plasma reactors - at least ones fueled by deuterium - put out SIGNIFICANTLY more energy than M/AM reactors - aka warp cores

    so why are races not using that for warp travel and primary ship power instead?​​
    I got a better question. Why does Airiam get a brand new cyborg body after her accident and when Pike has his accident, he gets a busted wheelchair with a blinking light?

    And I thought our Department of Veteran's Affairs was terrible.

    trivialising injuries?

    Pike's injuries may have been so bad that only a wheelchair was the only thing going for him to keep at least some form of independence, what happened if the injury so badly damaged his spine in such a way that the wheelchair is more than just a transportation device or he completely lost the lowerhalf of his body and the chair is keeping him alive, who knows with something that bulky.

    Airiam may have been so badly burned but remained alive, putting a cybernetic overlay, in effect a complete replacement for her skin organ and maybe anything underneath so damaged, but she can still function as an individual. it is clear her body was so badly damaged that she required a cybernetic upgrade.

    Then you look at Mark Jameson, he was confined to a wheelchair as his age went on before that whole reverse aging business before Karnas.

    You had Malora wearing a special harness to adjust to different gravity.

    Worf needed a new spine after his original spine was crushed, by way of genotronic research and that replicator he got a replacement, but also had to wear harnesses with special motor controllers so he could stand despite having no way of moving naturally.

    Neelix couldn't survive outside a holographic set of lungs that could only be provided by a medical bed, he was confined there permanently until a viidian transplanted one.

    There is a lot of variance of what could be the right action to take under the circumstances.
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  • mirrorchaosmirrorchaos Member Posts: 9,757 Arc User
    I didn't think much of this episode really. the creators are laying it on a bit thick with Burnham in this episode that i'm starting to wonder if they have lost sight of what they are doing story wise.

    Close enough, i suspected that the red angel was linked to spock and burnham in some manner, so when it was Burnham's mother it wasn't a shock at all, more underwhelming honestly.

    hopefully the next episode is a bit more interesting.
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  • rickvic#6033 rickvic Member Posts: 103 Arc User
    foxman00 wrote: »
    Well, I never believed it when people were making there guesses, but the Red Angel is not an Iconian.

    Thank god we can put that to rest :)

    TBH that would be a lot cooler. I for one welcome our new iconian overlords
  • redvengeredvenge Member Posts: 1,412 Arc User
    trivialising injuries?

    Pike's injuries may have been so bad that only a wheelchair was the only thing going for him to keep at least some form of independence, what happened if the injury so badly damaged his spine in such a way that the wheelchair is more than just a transportation device or he completely lost the lowerhalf of his body and the chair is keeping him alive, who knows with something that bulky.

    Airiam may have been so badly burned but remained alive, putting a cybernetic overlay, in effect a complete replacement for her skin organ and maybe anything underneath so damaged, but she can still function as an individual. it is clear her body was so badly damaged that she required a cybernetic upgrade.
    So her body is so badly damaged it needs replacement... but his body is so badly damaged he needs a wheelchair...

    What? This is the most bizarre moon logic I've heard yet. Why the weird double standard? Why is Pike living in misery when his body can be rebuilt just like Airiam's? This does not make sense.
  • thegrandnagus1thegrandnagus1 Member Posts: 3,305 Arc User
    redvenge wrote: »
    trivialising injuries?

    Pike's injuries may have been so bad that only a wheelchair was the only thing going for him to keep at least some form of independence, what happened if the injury so badly damaged his spine in such a way that the wheelchair is more than just a transportation device or he completely lost the lowerhalf of his body and the chair is keeping him alive, who knows with something that bulky.

    Airiam may have been so badly burned but remained alive, putting a cybernetic overlay, in effect a complete replacement for her skin organ and maybe anything underneath so damaged, but she can still function as an individual. it is clear her body was so badly damaged that she required a cybernetic upgrade.
    So her body is so badly damaged it needs replacement... but his body is so badly damaged he needs a wheelchair...

    What? This is the most bizarre moon logic I've heard yet. Why the weird double standard? Why is Pike living in misery when his body can be rebuilt just like Airiam's? This does not make sense.

    So, obviously neither of these situations are real.

    Because of that fact, no one is "trivializing" anyone's injures. Because they aren't real injuries or real people.

    And because this is fiction, the anyone can come up with any hypothetical reason why one of them could become a cyborg and the other couldn't.

    But I do agree that if Pike's brain works, it seems like they should have been able to do him up like Airiam. Then again, maybe he didn't want it after seeing what happened to Airiam. Maybe he didn't want to be in a body that could be taken control of.

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  • shadowfang240shadowfang240 Member Posts: 31,253 Arc User
    or maybe because of exactly that situation, the federation outright OUTLAWED cybernetics to that degree after getting discovery's report on what happened...you notice they have a very unfortunate habit of outlawing ANYTHING after experiencing one little disaster with it

    see: genetic modification, genesis, sapient AI, etc.​​
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  • mirrorchaosmirrorchaos Member Posts: 9,757 Arc User
    edited March 24
    redvenge wrote: »
    trivialising injuries?

    Pike's injuries may have been so bad that only a wheelchair was the only thing going for him to keep at least some form of independence, what happened if the injury so badly damaged his spine in such a way that the wheelchair is more than just a transportation device or he completely lost the lowerhalf of his body and the chair is keeping him alive, who knows with something that bulky.

    Airiam may have been so badly burned but remained alive, putting a cybernetic overlay, in effect a complete replacement for her skin organ and maybe anything underneath so damaged, but she can still function as an individual. it is clear her body was so badly damaged that she required a cybernetic upgrade.
    So her body is so badly damaged it needs replacement... but his body is so badly damaged he needs a wheelchair...

    What? This is the most bizarre moon logic I've heard yet. Why the weird double standard? Why is Pike living in misery when his body can be rebuilt just like Airiam's? This does not make sense.

    so instead of answering the point you decide to faff about instead? why are you replying for exactly?

    But I do agree that if Pike's brain works, it seems like they should have been able to do him up like Airiam. Then again, maybe he didn't want it after seeing what happened to Airiam. Maybe he didn't want to be in a body that could be taken control of.

    the point is that there are different options and with different technologies, it great depends on the injuries that apparently redvenge can't seem to answer.
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  • theboxisredtheboxisred Member Posts: 243 Arc User
    Was Ariam bombarded by Delta Radiation? No?

    Well, I guess it's a good thing that there are different treatments for different conditions, then...

    How is this even a mystery?
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