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Foundry Sunset, April 11th, 2019

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  • robeasomrobeasom Member Posts: 1,883 Arc User
    On this side of the line a game is represented whose developers will do whatever they can to see it reach its full potential. That's a game I want to see. That is a game I would spend money on. If I am the only person on this side of the line, so be it.

    Goodbye.

    100% agree
    NO TO ARC
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  • markhawkmanmarkhawkman Member Posts: 34,049 Arc User
    starswordc wrote: »
    • Poor documentation. Not enough descriptive variable and function names, not enough in-line comments on the code files, and not enough notes left behind by the programmer(s) who designed the Foundry but left the company, so anybody who comes after them has to basically guess and test to figure out what stuff does.
    • Poor version control. Not enough code versions saved for backup that can be pulled to help deal with unexpected failures.
    • Poor segregation of systems (what people are referring to as "spaghetti code"). You've got things referring to each other that really shouldn't, so changing a seemingly innocuous function causes snafus in weird places.
    That is probably true to some extent, but also there's the fact it's extremely complex.
    Perhaps what they could do is build a program that can do the conversion process for them. We don't need scratch built assets all we need are the assets already in the foundry and most of them are identical to what is already in the main game, every asset you see in the foundry you can find already somewhere in the main game.
    They would have to design and build a script then debug it until it actually works. Also there's the issue of how Foundry assets just aren't put together the same way.
    (And yes, I know Cryptic runs Champions Online too - but with that game in perpetual maintenance mode; I'd say that team has 3 people at most; and they just make the occasional new CO C-Store item.) ;)
    Sorry, I can't hear you over the sound of this Teliosaurus roaring, could you step closer to it's teeth?
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  • somtaawkharsomtaawkhar Member Posts: 6,065 Arc User
    edited March 11
    patrickngo wrote: »
    well, you've hit all the areas the devs are actually qualified to handle, with the exception of the spec loadout/preset and "Other such similar features that would HELP the game overall.."
    Ever since I started playing the game when it went F2P I've seen the devs handle a lot of things.
    -I've seen the skill system go from a vaguely worded nightmare, that barely told you what each skill did, much less how getting higher numbers affected it, to a system that is clear, concise, and actually functional.
    -I've seen the crafting system go from a nonsensical mishmash of "particles traces" and "alien artifacts", that somehow combined into unrelated things, and that forced you to have to fly half way across the galaxy in one of the worst space maps ever(which I will get to in a moment), just to craft anything, into a system that actually uses materials from canon, combines them into actual, realistic sounding, components, which you then use to craft things actually made from those components, and that has given us the ability to do it where we wanted, and when we needed to. Not to mention how expanded the new system is in general.
    -I've seen sector[loading please wait] space go from[loading please wait] a bunch of[loading please wait] small maps where[loading please wait] you had to[loading please wait] cross a load[loading please wait] screen every five[loading please wait] feet just to[loading please wait] get anywhere, to a massive map where you can fly from one end of the Beta Quadrant to the other uninterrupted.
    -I've seen kits go from pre-set loadouts that forced you to take numerous skills you didn't want, just to get the one you did, and forced you to carry around like 4-5 different ones just to get access to all the skills you wanted into a modular system where you can actually pick and chose the thing you want, and the things you need, for the kind of character you want to build.
    -I've seen the early game missions go from nonsensical messes that lacked any real plot within their own mission, much less any sort of connection to any sort of grander idea, whose story points get immediately dropped to never be mentioned again, and whose level and encounter design consisted of just endless waves of baddies, into coherent story arcs, with decent level design, much less enemy spam, cutscenes, voice acting, and other improvements.
    -Likewise I've seen them do the same with most of the game's early TFOs, such as Starbase 24->Defense of Starbase 1, Breaking the Planet->Pahvo Dissension, Slowing the Expeditionary Force-?battle at the Binary Stars, etc. etc.
    -I've seen them make numerous other changes ranging from revamping the lighting system, to the animation system, to changing the way items are stored in the database to reduce the number of unnecessary individual items in the game code, to changing how powers and traits make server calls to reduce lag.

    In the 7.5 years since the game has gone F2P I've seen them revamp, retool, and generally improve on every aspect of the game that existed at the time, as well as adding tons more like fleet holdings, admiralty, endeavors, and so on, and making changes to those systems as well based on player feedback.

    The only thing's I've ever seen them dismiss working on is PVP, and not due to an inability to do so, but rather due to a lack of interest on most player's part. And now the Foundry, because it was a broken mess in the first place, and time just rusted it out.

    And there is nothing about a spec load out/present that is beyond their ability, they have even talked about possibly doing it before.
    patrickngo wrote: »
    -Balancing game mechanics and testing new items. (Demonstrated constantly with every update.)
    -developing an effective reduction in AFK and Leaver Trolling.
    -developing a reward system that emphasizes group play in group play environments
    -developing queues people actually WANT to play and replay to the same level they play and replay the old borg STF material.
    -maintaining content for more than one faction. 'Cross Faction' is a cop-out, and just because everyone is drinking rat poison doesn't make it a good idea.
    -This argument gets leveled against every single MMO developer, and most game developers in general. It's a hallow complaint. Nothing will be perfectly balanced, nor will devs think of every single possible item/power combination that could be used to turn something otherwise mundane into a god item.
    -I'll add Cryptic to the list of developers who haven't developed one, which is to say, all of them. There is no effective way to stop AFKers, or leaver trollings. Every game has it, no matter what system they use. People will always find a way to cheat the system.
    -The Random TFO system, and the Endeavor system, both of which push people towards group content, and rewards them for it. Not to mention things like Fleet Holdings, which encourage fleet members to do content to get the resources needed to upgrade them, and rewards those who upgrade said holdings with useful gear.
    -This will never happened because the old Borg STFs are only played, and replayed, as much as they are because they require zero effort, and zero thought beyond DE-PE-ES BURN!. The only thing people would play as much as that is a TFO where the map just loads, there is one enemy, he dies in one hit since he has only one HP, and you get a million of every kind of marks, and 10 million dil every time you complete it. That being said, I have seen many people praise the Age of Discovery TFOs as being fun and replayable compared to most other TFOs. I know I am certainly enjoying them myself.
    -It isn't a cop out, its a logical and natural progress of narratives. Governments do not exist in totally isolated bubbles from each other, never talking, communicating, or sharing common threats. Not only does this suggestion not make sense from a practical game development standpoint, which is why not even WoW has been able to accomplish it outside of rare occasions, but it makes no sense from a narrative standpoint, and no sense from a realistic standpoint.
    patrickngo wrote: »
    -Fixing Exploration
    It is true, Cryptic doesn't have the means to fix exploration... but then again, nor does anyone else.

    The problem with exploration is a fundamental problem of technology that no one has an answer to. Exploration systems require large amounts of differing content to make it seem like actual exploration, and finding new things. The problem is that procedural content is garbage. It was garbage 23 years ago when Bethesda used it in Daggerfall, and it was garbage 3 years ago when it was used in No Man's Sky. Procedural generated content can only really work on very superficial, surface level things. The algorithms needed to create believable sotrylines of randomly generated content are simply too complex for any system to create.

    At worst, you end up with something like STO's original genesis system, where there was few, if any, satiny checks resulting in nonsense like "The Third Borg Dynasty". At best, you get something similar, but with 1/4 less missions because sanity checks disable so many possible combinations, and locations certain combinations can appear, that each exploration cluster only has a doezen or so possible missions. Even then, those missions would still be more simple and primitive then even those old, one shot, Federation only patrols from the launch era that are still in the game... aka, TRIBBLE content.

    It's true Cryptic can't fix exploration, but unlike the way you presented it, it isn't a failing on their part, as much as it is a failing on the part of the currently available technology available to anyone. Even Minecraft, the most basic you can get with it, has tons of nonsensical geological formations, environs being next to each other when they shouldn't, and eventually breaks if you go out far enough. Heaven forbid they try to make a randomly generated story with it.

    The closest we will ever get to exploration in video games is something like the bit at the beginning of the "Melting Pot" mission, where you are flying around the Dranuur system pressing "click to scan" buttons while hearing LaForge and Kuumaarke squee over scan data. And while that is fine every once and awhile, STO is not, nor should it aspire to be, a Japanese visual novel where such things consist of most of the "game" play.
    Post edited by somtaawkhar on
  • vegeta50024vegeta50024 Member Posts: 2,000 Arc User
    Compared to most MMORPGs, STO releases content at a fairly fast pace. Most MMOs make you wait 4-5 months between new content, Cryptic cut that down to two since Delta Rising, and now they are doing something MONTHLY, be it a new TFO, new missions, or a new gameplay system. If you think Cryptic releases new content at a nsials pace, then most other MMOs much seem to move at a glacial pace.

    Seriously?

    In the last 12 months of ESO we have seen the following:

    Dragon Bones - 2 dungeons
    Wolfhunter - 2 dungeons
    Murkmire - concerns a previously unexplored region of Black Marsh, the story is about a dead clan of Argonians
    Wrathstone is about getting two parts of a mysterious tablet.
    Update 17 - includes a new outfit system, two new battlegrounds, a home storage system, and additional gameplay features such as a new level-up experience, and combat improvements such as refinements to Synergies, the removal of area-of-effect caps, changes to block costs, and more.
    Summerset - a full expansion pack based on Summerset Isle

    That's about 50 hours of content, much of it repeatable. In June they will release Elsweyr, another 30 hours of content.

    STO releases two missions every 3 months, that's about 90 minutes worth of content based on 45 min each playthrough, at that rate you're talking 6 hours a year, or around a tenth of the content from ESO.

    I can't comment on other MMOs because I don't play them. Of course, as has been said before, Cryptic is nowhere near the size of Zenimax and don't have paid for episodes, although most of the above are free for subscribers. That's their choice, they scrapped subbing, they went F2P, and have concentrated on a grind model with microtransactions, they live off ship sales as their employee noted in the Glassdoor review quoted earlier in this thread. The foundry filled the huge gap between content releases because a couple of hours every quarter an interesting experience does not make.

    It's nice that you stick up for all aspects of what Cryptic do, but you are flogging a dead horse here Som. Go back and read the hundreds of comments, no matter how much you try and convince others they did the right thing your arguments are falling on deaf ears because we are almost all annoyed and angry that the game has come to this. A software company who admits they cannot service parts of their own game, a game that collapses under a myriad of bugs on every release, on each platform, a game that is just one huge grind to enable ship and character improvement and yet offers nowhere to fully test and utilize those improved characters and ships. They have never reintroduced previous elite content such as the Borg STFs, so folks can no longer get their elite MACO and OMEGA costumes and besides HSE, which is way too easy nowadays, there are no real challenges left in the game other than foundry missions - and now they are removing that too.

    Let's just look at some of the problems:

    lots of problems snipped

    Then there are the things that are started and never developed further

    New Romulus looks the same today as it did years ago!
    No new Faction specific missions, ie no continuing development of the Romulan story, the Jem'Hadar story, the ToS story, only the DISCO characters are continuing to get updated.

    Then there are the stupid things like level 50 battlezones for the Dyson sphere
    No update to the fleet system, like the much-requested armada mail since it was introduced.
    100,000 fleet admirals running around everywhere mining dilithium
    A totally pointless cooldown on transwarp abilities
    Space effects so out of control you can't even see your ship half the time unless you're in a J
    Insane damage from torpedoes of enemy ships from time to time on any difficulty level
    Patrols that you can only play once unless you drop before handing in effectively removing even more content

    Oh, the list is endless, but you know what made it all worthwhile? Playing the latest adventure from one of your fleet mates in a group, once you'd figured out the workarounds to let you actually play as a team because that is broken too.
    They've removed the most worthwhile aspect to the game, it will now only appeal to people up until they reach end game and realise there is no endgame, the endgame in STO is now space barbie and epeen displays, it's not PvP because that's beyond broken, it's not Elite STFs because they are mostly gone, it's not the elite battlezones because there aren't any. And now it's not the challenging missions written in the foundry because they are removing it.

    So you see why your defence of Cryptic is falling on deaf ears? And believe me, if it wasn't 2:25 am I'd be thinking up a shed load more examples but I'm tired, tired of people defending the indefensible, tired of being taken for a fool and tired of shelling out cash for something that never delivers. Well there's an answer to that, and if others think like I do, and I believe there are many who do, then Cryptic had better wake up and smell the coffee because things are about to get real.

    I snipped out some of your post because I want to once again offer my 2 cents on most of your points that, while Somtaawkhar pointed out, the point needs to be stated from another point of view.

    First off, let's talk about ESO vs. STO and for fun, let's throw Neverwinter in here, since Neverwinter to me is more in line with an example of a fantasy game than STO is (as it is a Sci fi game).

    Unlike you, I have played other MMORPGs besides STO, though I cannot comment about ESO in my own opinion other than what I heard for the most part and what I know about ESO. From what I understand, ESO had a longer development time than STO, which is reflected in the fact that Zenimax is a larger company than Cryptic. ESO launched as a game that not only required to be bought in order to play, but also required a monthly subscription, similar to World of Warcraft. the subscription model to play barely lasted a year before they dropped it to the buy once & play unlimited model with an optional subscription attached, which gained more favorable reviews than when the game was purely subscription based.

    Okay, now for Neverwinter. Neverwinter did not receive as large of a development time as ESO, but compared to STO, Neverwinter had nearly double the time, after being announced in August of 2010, under Atari. As we know, Neverwinter never started as a subscription based game since Cryptic was purchased by Perfect World. Compared to STO's originally subscription based model, the fact that Neverwinter was still in development meant that they could bring the game out free 2 play. The game came out offering many different playable races, as well as classes, and many different areas that people could spend time leveling their characters in while experiencing a narrative in each area. Since release, the game has had 15 major game updates that they call Modules (which is similar to the concept of STO's season updates).

    Like STO, Neverwinter is also having its foundry shut down, which of course you have commented on. However, compared to this thread, there's fewer pages there. What is the same though is how much of an asset that the Foundry was to them as it was to STO, but in a different way. Neverwinter is a game that takes inspiration from Dungeons & Dragons, which is a table top RPG famous for its ability for players to formulate their own campaigns/stories and have friends embark on the adventure they came up with. A game like Neverwinter losing that essentially makes it lose a fundamental identity of what defines it as a D&D game.

    Now, to move on to the other points:

    - New Romulus looking the same as when it was first introduced, it's what Som described. It's meant to be an adventure zone for players whom would just be arriving to it for the first time. Now, I would like to have it have some development myself, but I think any development should probably be saved for when they feel we should revisit the planet.

    - Lack of Faction specific missions: As a whole, I want to point out that it was Cryptic themselves that stated in Priority One Podcast that to offer faction specific content that only a portion of the playerbase could access is something they want to avoid. Yeah, I know you cited that they did it with TOS Feds back in 2016, but that was 3 years ago. As far as the groups:
    • Romulans: To me, the Romulan storyline is more or less done. It started with the Romulan Republic being newly formed, looking for assistance from both the Klingons and the Federation since they were dealing with the Romulan Star Empire as a major antagonist. By the time its resolved, the Empire is all but gone and the Republic emerges fairly strong.
    • TOS Federation: As you may be well aware, the TOS storyline ends with the player's ship being "destroyed" and the character transported into the future by Daniels. There's not really much they can continue for the storyline, other than including some references like they did with the Kelvin Timeline mission in which the TOS character is recognized by the alternate Garrett.
    • Jem'hadar: For me, the fact that they don't have any other development to me makes sense. The Jem'hadar are meant to be soldiers, engineered to fight and not a whole lot of other development. If I had to hazard a guess though, Odo likely gave an order to the Jem'hadar First to assist the Alliance in whatever situation that arises.
    • Disco character: Realistically, the only real update that the Discovery characters have had was the initial launch. Mirror Of Discovery was more geared towards everyone. There is going to be an addtional set of Discovery missions coming for 2257 characters in the near future.

    One thing that I can agree with you though is that endgame in STO is something that cryptic has been struggling with for years, going back as far as I can remember when I started. All we had when I reached Level 50 were the Borg TFOs, Defera, Nukara, Fleet Actions and the Borg/Nukara Red Alerts. They did expand on things prior to Delta Rising by adding 3 new battlezones, new story missions and additional TFOs. Since then, they have moved the endgame goal post by expanding the level cap to 60, and again to level 65, but continued to rely on utilizing story missions, battlezones and TFOs as endgame content, while also introducing new progression systems that are designed to help players continue to feel like they're doing something worthwhile in the game.

    For me personally, my endgame is what I choose to make of it. If I reach a point that I am getting bored of playing one character, I simply move onto another character. I still have my Temporal Recruit and my Jem'hadar unfinished as far as progression and I return to them from time to time usually while doing the new Featured TFOs. I also take breaks from the game when possible so I don't burn out from overplaying.
  • nagoraknagorak Member Posts: 880 Arc User
    edited March 11
    Well, after all this discussion, the reality is still that the Foundry is going down. It's not going to come back, so saving the missions means nothing.

    All I can say is I'm glad I cut my losses and stopped working on the Foundry 6 years ago. I had a lot more ideas, so I could have probably created a couple dozen more missions. Unfortunately, even back then it was clear that Cryptic's commitment to the Foundry was questionable. The editor broke and went down after every update and sometimes was down for months. On top of that, they made it very challenging for missions to get played, simply because no one even knew about them.

    Even today finding missions past the "Top Rated" list is clunky--the search is sort of hidden up there, requiring a button click to make visible. Probably most players don't even realize there is a way to find other missions, thus the missions don't get played. Once upon a time missions showed up in sector space, but then that went away too. So, then we hear that no one played Foundry missions? Well, the poor Foundry mission UI certainly didn't make it easy for players to do so.

    I don't agree that the Foundry couldn't have been monetized, or made a larger part of the game. There were ways it could have been done. The problem is no one at Cryptic had any idea what to do with it. But really that's all water under the bridge at this point, too.

    I will say going forward I will not consider playing any of Cryptic/PWE's other games. There are plenty of games out there for me to devote my time to. I know they probably won't miss me, but it's all I can do.
  • mustrumridcully0mustrumridcully0 Member Posts: 12,461 Arc User
    jonsills wrote: »
    I'm just astonished at how many systems experts we have in this thread.

    And how many of you, exactly, have ever applied to work at Cryptic? They've been seeking systems programmers for years for this game, it's been on their website right along. I'd think all of you who know exactly how to solve the Foundry issues with just one or two dedicated software engineers would have been actually doing it, for pay, rather than just sniping from behind your keyboards.

    Or was my first assessment correct, and all this ignorance is in fact spilling from people who never coded a line in their lives, and wouldn't know a NAND gate from a Nancy strip?

    I find this funny in a outlandish way. A person need not know how to fix something to know what is needed to fix it. If i have a flat tire and need it fixed i either call a tow truck send the car to a shop and know that a grease monkey is needed to fix said tire issue. That or knowing how to fix the flat my self i can see that i need a jack and a tire iron to remove the busted tire and replace it with a new one.
    Analogies are always flaed:
    But imagine due to a construction flaw, the cars tire will always go flat every week. Repairing the construction flaw would cost the same as buying a brand new car. Would you buy a new car, or keep fixing the flat tire every week? What if you don't have the money for a new car. But maybe you could get a used car, and the money you don't spend on repairing flat tires each week, you could use to eventually buy a dishwasher and a freezer.
    Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
  • sirsitsalotsirsitsalot Member Posts: 1,685 Arc User
    Why are we ARGUING about this. The removal of any SYSTEM from an MMO that has a significant following is not a good decision. Especially when said system mitigated a lot of the void left due to what Cryptic is unwilling to do. You can spin it however you want, but those who feel like this was a kick in the gut are not going to feel any other way. And whether you personally never enjoyed or never used the Foundry is irrelevant.

    I said it when they did away with exploration and those who didn't care for it laughed, making snide comments like "Your tears are delicious" And SOME of them were foundry fans who said that Foundry was all we needed for exploration. Ironic, that.

    I said it once already in this thread.

    And I will say it one more time:

    If they can remove a system or feature that one group enjoyed, they can also remove the system or feature that you enjoy..

    PvP has gotten no love from Cryptic. There is no indication that this will change. It would surprise me if it isdn't cut from the game within a year...

    Aside frim fleet holdings, which are just another grind that can be indirectly monetized with RD purchased with Zen, there has been no fleet-specific content added for a long time. So that is a candidate for the chopping block, too.

    Foundry mitigated the void between official content patches that while yes they are happening a little faster now are still not numerous enough or regular enough to give players a reason to log in every day. It gave players a way to experience content that Cryptic refuses to produce... It took a lot of work off their shoulders and put it on the shoulders of those who desired to be creative. And they are removing it.


    You think they are going to fix PvP? You think they are going to create fleet-specific content? You think they are going to suddenly start churning out content? If so you are deluding yourself. They said that their development process will not change.

    So I am calling it. PvP will be gone within a year. The Fleet system within two. I hope I am wrong. But I fear that I'm not.
    I have no further snarky comments to make, at this time...
  • ltminnsltminns Member Posts: 9,352 Arc User
    Actually, Lord of the Rings Online handles two versions of one area in the game, namely Isengard. One is pre destruction and the other post flooding. What you interact with depends on the context of how you get there.

    In a way we sort of have that kind of thing already in-game with Defera and Risa. Here you just beam down into the different context Instances. In a more limited sense we have a different view of part of New Romulus in 'Blood of the Ancients'.
    'But to be logical is not to be right', and 'nothing' on God's earth could ever 'make it' right!
    Judge Dan Haywood
  • eazzieeazzie Member Posts: 1,903 Arc User
    I think it's time this thread is closed. There's too many posts going round in circles. Too many conspiracy theories being dreamt up. It is being suggested that such n such is next. Yes it is a major blow. But the decision was not taken lightly. EVERYTHING was done to try and find a viable solution which has taken over a year. Every avenue was explored. We should be thanking the dev team, Kael etc for doing all they could to try to make things viable. So from me Kael, Al, Thomas, Jeremy, Jesse, Jette EVERYBODY Thank you for all you did,
  • pendra37#5088 pendra37 Member Posts: 29 Arc User
    edited March 11
    Even some of the best foundry content such as the Purity series had the writing and level design quality of “Divide et Impera”

    That is totally wrong. There were great many foundry missions that were way better than any Cryptic content up to date. Better in writing, design, small details and overall Star Trek atmosphere. Not Cryptic's cookie cutter kill five mobs, scan five things (dealing with the fifth Borg dynasty) rinse and repeat boredom.

    We even implemented Voice Overs for a foundry mission. It was pretty neat.

    Sure there were the stupid grinders and the ever present Test Mission Blahs, but those are ever present in every UGC in every game.

    Anyway, as the Foundry sunsets, I will also sunset my STO activities by a glorious spamming of the uninstall button.
  • pendra37#5088 pendra37 Member Posts: 29 Arc User
    How did you implement voice overs?

    It worked like this:
    - Someone made the appropriate sound clips.
    - You assigned a unique ID number to every clip, which was the file name.
    - I made an app that converted this ID number into a barcode of a sort. Something like IiiIIiiIiiII.
    - You copied this barcode into the appropriate textbox as the first line.
    - Finally, the app was monitoring the screen during play. Whenever a properly formed barcode showed up, it loaded (locally or from the internet) and played the sound clip with the ID number from the barcode. There was maybe a 1 sec delay.

    There was one mission like that and it worked pretty well.

  • mustrumridcully0mustrumridcully0 Member Posts: 12,461 Arc User
    eazzie wrote: »
    I think it's time this thread is closed. There's too many posts going round in circles. Too many conspiracy theories being dreamt up. It is being suggested that such n such is next. Yes it is a major blow. But the decision was not taken lightly. EVERYTHING was done to try and find a viable solution which has taken over a year. Every avenue was explored. We should be thanking the dev team, Kael etc for doing all they could to try to make things viable. So from me Kael, Al, Thomas, Jeremy, Jesse, Jette EVERYBODY Thank you for all you did,

    You mean brush it under the carpet and hope it gets buried?

    I vote we keep this thread open, then we can update it with any new developments and it gives a single place for folks to voice their displeasure/agreement. Not everyone has seen the news yet, I have at least two members who are on long term deployment overseas, when they come back to this they will not be happy I can tell you.
    I agree, there should be obviously a place where people can talk about this.

    For a lot of people, removing the Foundry is like sweeping a rug from under them. It was a key part of their game life. And damn, realizing that all the missions you made are going to be lost, probably forever, is really, really difficult.
    The emotional investment in user-generated content will be even higher than it is for characters you played for many years.

    I guess if people get too angry and can't stay within the forum guidelines, their posts will have to be moderated in some way, but that doesn't have to mean the thread needs to go. This is too big of a deal, to hard of a hit, to be hidden away. A dedicated thread for the topic is a good thing.
    Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
  • somtaawkharsomtaawkhar Member Posts: 6,065 Arc User
    edited March 11
    -They should have never have dropped them in the first place, how many years now is it that folks have been unable to finish their AMCO and OMEGA accolades and indeed have a good fight with our traditional arch enemy? This is Cryptic putting everything on the back burner because they don't have the staff, the will, or the budget to sort it out.
    -Have you played any of these so called elite TFOs? With the exception of Dranuur Gauntel they are almost all pretty much identically easy to the advanced version, such is power creep in this game, the only way they make it hard is by throwing in arbitrary time constraints.
    -BS, this has been broken from day 1, you are cloaked sitting in front of an enemy, some NPC decides to talk to you and you decloak. The only reason this is not mentioned any more is because people have given up complaining about it 6 years ago. Probably the person who coded that bit has left the company just after he wrote it and they don't know how to fix it.
    -Again, utter fabricated bollocks. This was discussed on the Live stream a couple of weeks ago, they are trying to sort it out but they are struggling to do it, but it is being worked on.
    -Well he's going to be busy, but at least it's something.
    -All I'm saying here is that for anyone who's seen that stupid scafolding for years and years they could do something about it, instance off the first time experience and ease in the new look, if this game survives another 10 years it will still look the same, yawn!
    -It is not untrue at all. When you mix all factions together because they've been forced to team up to fight overwhelming odds, that does not make them faction specific stories. Name one mission for the Romulans, Klingons, ToS, AoY, or Dominion that has been added that only affects that faction, the answer is none, so my statement is fundamentally true.
    -Ha ha your bollocks knows no bounds does it. When the Dyson battlezone was introduced at level 50 that WAS the max cap of characters, so by your very own argument it was designed for max cap players, when they raised the cap they didn't do it for the battlezone.
    -No, they are just huge dil sinks designed to make the few very loyal people who support Cryptic financially a way of paying over hundreds if not thousands of £ $ whatever currency you like to fill up as they know as well as the rest of us that fleet holdings are filled by the few for the many. Of course they don't care and would love it no doubt as I would if all players paid their fare share, but back in the real world they simply don't.
    -Because it is indicative of a poorly thought out progression system from day one. What they should do, and could still do it, is make the maximum rank Captain and possibly a higher rank for fleet leaders although I care not about the latter point. This is the reason you don't see 10 million Dovakins running around Tamriel.
    -Then I presume you never play on a team and do everything alone or your eyesight is so poor you probably can't see your own monitor. It's BS, again, and you know it, folks have been saying for years that the effects are so over the top, funny when Cryptic make their own trailers they removed 99% of the effects.
    -Hahaha you are such a tease, you and everyone playing know they never fixed that, there are plenty of threads detailing this problem. I notice you didn't mention the gravimetric torp problem either that has been broken since AoY came out.
    -Yes they are mostly poor, but you know what, the reason they are useful when the foundry goes down is unlike most of the Delta quadrant patrols you can actually team up and play them together. If you do that on Argala for example your team is split over different instances, if you're lucky you may get two or three together but never a full team, and don't try to BS your way out of that, we have tried numerous times.
    -Anything that poor in quality should be axed the moment you get the chance. No dev should leave something that embarrassingly bad in their game. Who cares about some worthless accolades?
    -And yet you want the elite Borg TFOs, the easiest of the bunch, to come back citing a lack of difficult content? So there isn't enough challenging content in the game, but the easier challenging content will somehow fix that?
    -Except it isn't broken. You not liking the feature doesn't make it broken.
    -They EXPLICITLY STATED in the livestream that they INTENTIONALLY mixed BOTH warp sound together because the game could only support one warp sound at a time, and they wanted both in the game. They did say they are working on ways to either let people chose their own warp sound, or make it to where only the Disco ships played it. But they did explicitly state the mixing of both was intentional until they did one or the other.
    -He's already done the Klingon War, and Romulan Mystery arcs, as well as the Victory is Life, and Age/Mirror of Discovery stuff. So he's about 1/6 of the way through the game's missions despite starting only a few months ago.
    -The last thing a developer does is instance things like that because all it does is further fragment the playerbase, and make it harder of different people to play the content.
    -And again, faction specific stories are not needed to continue the story of a faction. Just look as Victory is Life, and Age of Discovery, both of which are continuing the Klingon story with the return of the Hur'q, and the the fragmentary nature of the Klingon Empire being put the the test with the return of J'Ula.
    -Nope, by my argument the Dyson Sphere battlezone, which was designed for level 50 players, should stay at level 50, even if the level cap gets raised later, because that is the level is was designed for in the first place.
    -Except filling up Fleet Holdings requires zero investment in real world currency, as dil is easily found in pretty much every aspect of the game.
    -By this same argument ESO is poorly thought out because now there are 100,000 chosen soul shriven which defeated Tharn, reclaimed the Amulet of Kings, and defeated Molag Bal. Literally, this same argument applies to basically every MMO, since basically every MMO plot assumes you are the only one in the actual story.
    -I play with people all the time, you kind of have too in TFOs. I never once lose sight of my character or ships. It's pretty difficult to do so.
    -I have no idea what you are talking about in regards to gravimetric torps. As for the Borg invisa torp, I have never once been affected by it in the last year or two when I do Borg TFOs. Most people I play with have commented on not seeing it for awhile either.
    -Why would you play those patrols in a team? Especially when they offer nothing worth playing?
    That is totally wrong. There were great many foundry missions that were way better than any Cryptic content up to date. Better in writing, design, small details and overall Star Trek atmosphere. Not Cryptic's cookie cutter kill five mobs, scan five things (dealing with the fifth Borg dynasty) rinse and repeat boredom.
    Every time I have seen people try to cite "Star Trek atmosphere" it has been from people who don't understand Star Trek's actual point.

    Star Trek, as series, has always been about the exploration of the human condition. Space exploration, and finding new aliens, was simply a plot vehicle to move the story along, and not the actual focus of the show. Which is why, even TNG, the show that literally has "seek out new life and new civilization" in its intro spend many of its episodes dealing with races already known to the Federation like the Klingons and Romulans. This is why both DS9, the best Trek show, and Voyager, neither of which have anything to do with space exploration, are still Trek shows.
  • pendra37#5088 pendra37 Member Posts: 29 Arc User
    Somtaawkhar, kick back, relax, drink tea, watch TNG, take a chill pill or something. You go on like that and you will end up with an ulcer and multiple heart attacks before you turn 30. Not a nice prospect.

    Your past experience doesn't worth anything in this context because it is experience with other people, not with me. You took an incorrect assumption based on your prejudice. And please spare me of a long winded explanation why you think you are correct. You don't know me, you don't know how I think and any foray into that personal territory will boil down to all sorts of dumb fallacies.

    On the other hand, your generic interpretation of the Star Trek Atmosphere is quite accurate. Yes, the missions that I talked about nailed all those notions you mentioned much better than the "official" content. Like the Star Trek vs Necrons, the Star Trek vs Tyranid.
    In the Grim dark future of STO's 25th century, there is only war!
  • somtaawkharsomtaawkhar Member Posts: 6,065 Arc User
    edited March 11
    In the Grim dark future of STO's 25th century, there is only war!
    A. As per Trek canon, the Federation has been in some war or conflict or another almost since it began.
    B. There are only like 4 wars in STO. Which is why most of the story arcs in STO are ones where it is just you, and maybe two other helped NPCs like Kurn or LaForge, solving everything by yourselves instead of needing massive fleet mobilizations.

    -The ironically named Klingon War arc for Fed characters? Zero actual war in it. It's just you going after B'Vat.
    -The Specters arc with the Devidians? No war there.
    -The Romulan Mystery arc? Still no war.
    -The Cloaked Intentions arc with the Remans? Nope, no war here.
    -The Cardassian Struggle arc? Anti-terror operations, but no war in sight.
    -The 2800 arc? The entire point is to prevent a war by getting the Jem'Hadar to stand down. Which we did.
    -The also ironically named Cold War arc with the Breen? Its just you hunting down one captain and his subordinates.
    -The Borg arc? Still no war here. In fact, the whole point of Task Force Omega was to make surgical strikes against the Borg so the Borg's invasion didn't necessitate an actual war.
    -Tholians on Nukara? Nope
    -New Romulus? still nope
    -The Voth? Nuh uh.
    -The Undine? This is the first arc to feature an actual war in it since the Undine actually make major attacks on worlds and such.
    -The Delta Quadrant? The whole point of Delta Rising's plot was that we were trying to build an Alliance to make a single defeating strike against the Vaadwaur so we didn't have to escalate things into a quadrant wide war, something we successfully avoided.
    -The Iconian War? Second actual war in STO.
    -The Temporal Cold War stuff? Third actual war in STO, but its a future war, not a 2409/2410 war.
    -Tzenkthi arc? Back to no war
    -The Hur'q conflict? Yeah, this is a war
    -Age of Discovey? Back to no war again
    -Mirror of Discovery? Also no war here

    Out of the 19 different story arcs a 2409 Fed plays through, 15 of them have zero war in them. So 3/4s of the game has no war in it at all.

    And this is another thing people misrepresent. Conflict =/= war. Kirk, Picard, Sisko, Janeway, Archer, all of them, and their crews, frequently got kidnapped, held hostage, fired upon, and otherwise attacked, and likewise, they equally fought back to defend themselves, escape the situation, or otherwise stop whatever nefarious thing they were doing. None of them, just like all these things in STO, constitute war. It's like saying that all of Picard's encounters with the Duras family constituted the Picard-Duras "war". Its a nonsense argument.
  • roguealltrekroguealltrek Member Posts: 118 Arc User
    For the most part i did not take part in the foundry only on random playing of it every now and then.

    I am upset it is going to get cut as it was a bonus to this game that kept people playing and providing me more chances for player interaction.

    Likewise I like the missions that have been cut from the game making it in my view all the poorer for the loss.

    Not everyone likes all the missions or quests or exploration or the foundry we will all disagree on these points.

    What i am seeing in this thread is people are upset people wanted the missions and foundry and they are not getting to keep them. For some to have the chutzpah to trash peoples view of a loss and call the cut items garbage and good its gone. Simply is more than i have words to express.

    If you hold the view that it was a cancerous growth and glad its been cut out then congrats you are getting your wish accept that and move on. There is no need to heap insults upon injury to the people that feel a loss.
    To be or not to be: B)
  • starcruiser#3423 starcruiser Member Posts: 519 Arc User
    edited March 11
    Comments - self moderated.​​
  • ltminnsltminns Member Posts: 9,352 Arc User
    So let it be written, so let it be done.
    'But to be logical is not to be right', and 'nothing' on God's earth could ever 'make it' right!
    Judge Dan Haywood
  • djxprimedjxprime Member Posts: 522 Arc User
    How did you implement voice overs?

    It worked like this:
    - Someone made the appropriate sound clips.
    - You assigned a unique ID number to every clip, which was the file name.
    - I made an app that converted this ID number into a barcode of a sort. Something like IiiIIiiIiiII.
    - You copied this barcode into the appropriate textbox as the first line.
    - Finally, the app was monitoring the screen during play. Whenever a properly formed barcode showed up, it loaded (locally or from the internet) and played the sound clip with the ID number from the barcode. There was maybe a 1 sec delay.

    There was one mission like that and it worked pretty well.

    Man, that is quite clever. I would have loved to have had something like that in some of my missions. Now I'm sad I won't get a chance to try that.
    Kkerp5u.jpg?1

    "No matter where you go...there you are."
  • rhazedurilerhazedurile Member Posts: 56 Arc User
    I agree with previous statements that the way to make your voices heard is through monetary means. As a business, Cryptic and PWE will notice a sharp enough drop in profits. If a business does not make a product you want to buy, or a service offering you desire is no longer offered or meeting your need, then the only way a business will take notice of that is if the profit margin takes a hit.

    For a MMO business, a decrease in logins, purchasing ships, etc., will hopefully make said business take notice. That said, perhaps the numbers were crunched, and it was determined that if the less than 40% (or whatever percentage) of Foundry authors/users were not the cash cow of Z-Store purchasers, then perhaps those numbers indicate the loss of those players would not hurt the bottom line. If so...then so be it.

    As for me, with the loss of the Foundry, my revenue stream for this game is closed. I'm sure I'll log in from time to time to check out new content, but the primary attraction of this game for me is gone. The ability to create my stories, and see the stories of others kept me coming back. The new ships kept me interested in creating new adventures with those new ships for me and my friends. Without that, I have no reason to spend money on the game.

    I'd suggest others who feel similarly take the same approach. The bottom line is the only way dissatisfaction with a service will be felt.
    dZWjlSs.jpg
  • sirsitsalotsirsitsalot Member Posts: 1,685 Arc User
    I'd suggest others who feel similarly take the same approach. The bottom line is the only way dissatisfaction with a service will be felt.

    There is one danger here. Yes, just not paying isn't good enough. As I understand it, PWE bases its decisions on total revenue form ALL of their games, and unless their global revenue drops, they won't do any serious reconsideration. What needs to happen is a percentage drop in revenue, punctuated by a parallel and equal percentage drop in player occupancy, localized in STO and NWO to give them solid metrics to track in terms of where the problem areas are.

    The one danger I speak of is the distinct possibility that the loss of profit and player occupancy may result in NWO or STO or BOTH being deemed unprofitable, resulting in further financial support being denied, resulting in the games themselves being sunset.

    But at this point, for a lot of people, I suspect, it wouldn't make much difference if that did happen.

    Those who talk about wanting to engage in this form of financial passive resistancwe need to think very carefully. In an attempt to draw positive attention from those who can direct Cryptic to fix the fallout their bad decisions, could see ther efforts backfire in their face resulting in a lose-lose situation for everyone. We the payers, those of us who do pay, really do hold all the power here. We just need to weigh the potential cost of wielding it. Like I have said, I stopped paying a long time ago. Last thing I bought was the Jupiter uniform.

    Now if Cryptic can pull off some sort of internal miracle and manage to churn out PLAYABLE content on a monthly basis, and if they start charging for it, I would gladly buy it. But I am not holding my breath. At the moment, based on their development direction and decisions, there is absolutely zero incentive for me to play STO, let alone pay for anything. The Jupiter uniform is the only and last piece of fluff I have bought for STO, and I have no plans of changing that any time soon.
    I have no further snarky comments to make, at this time...
  • somtaawkharsomtaawkhar Member Posts: 6,065 Arc User
    edited March 11
    Now if Cryptic can pull off some sort of internal miracle and manage to churn out PLAYABLE content on a monthly basis
    Define playable
    -October 2018: Age of Discovery Part 1
    -November 2018: Battle at the Binary Stars TFO event
    -December 2018: Winter event
    -January 2019: Age of Discovery part 2
    -February 2019: Pahvo Dissension TFO event
    -March 2019: Personal Endeavor system(came early)
    -April 2019: Limited Engagement TFO event
    -May 2019: Age of Discovery Part 3
    I see playable monthly content for 8 months straight here.

    And according to both people like Al, and the new EP himself, Andre Emerson(the EP in question) wants monthly releases like this to be the standard. Instead of Crypitc's old format of nothing for 3 months, then we get all the new missions, TFOs, and systems in one dump when the new season hits, then nothing for another 3 months until the next season or half season hits.
  • sirsitsalotsirsitsalot Member Posts: 1,685 Arc User
    And according to both people like Al, and the new EP himself, Andre Emerson(the EP in question) wants monthly releases like this to be the standard. Instead of Crypitc's old format of nothing for 3 months, then we get all the new missions, TFOs, and systems in one dump when the new season hits, then nothing for another 3 months until the next season or half season hits.

    I know about theur current road map. It still remains to be seen if they will actually hold to this. They still won't be charging for playable content, and to get my money that is what they will have to do. I am done buying fluff, and I don't give a tribble's hairball about lock box ships.
    I have no further snarky comments to make, at this time...
  • somtaawkharsomtaawkhar Member Posts: 6,065 Arc User
    6 story missions in 8 months, assuming there are two in Part 3 of DISCO. The rest are just grinds that you have to do many times to get a lack lustre reward or a reasonable free ship, a ship that nobody flies because they all own something better already. The Bajoran Interceptor was the last really useful ship for it's experimental weapon and it's DOMINO console.
    A. Speak for yourself, I frequently switch between the ships that I have earned. I play the game to have fun, not to min-max MUH DEEPS!
    B. As for the rewards, both the Beacon of Kahless, and the Crystal Prism Module, and quite fun to use.
    C. Welcome to every MMORPG's end-game, which consists of re-running the same dungeons/TFOs over and over again to get items/materials used to craft better gear that will never actually be necessary since Devs know its pointless to create content for the 1% of players who actually min-max to the max when they could instead make content for the 99% of the playerbase who generally doesn't care, and typically have mid-level gear to boot.
This discussion has been closed.