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Foundry Sunset, April 11th, 2019

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  • pendra37#5088 pendra37 Member Posts: 29 Arc User
    It turned out that it would take months of work for each individual mission

    I would call BS on that. A big, major, massive pile of it actually. It took me a couple of weeks to develop an importer for the Foundry. With that, I could recreate any exported custom landscape in 10-20 mins.

    Recreating the text and the switches took some 1-4 hours, depending on the complexity. In any case, you give me a foundry export and you could get your mission recreated by the next day.

    Cryptic used to tell us that their dev tools are more capable and complex. Which means, what you can do with the Foundry, you can do with the dev tools (and much more). This means that such importer could be created with ease. The buttons may be at different positions or tabs or whatever, but they are there somewhere. Train the importer to that different interface and there, you can import missions 50x faster as of now. With better tailored tools, you can do it even faster than that.

    Now, if you have only 1 hour a week to work on that (because you have other tasks), one mission migration would take 2 months.
  • lagunadlagunad Member Posts: 198 Arc User
    edited March 10
    How do you play STO in a way that requires grinding in any significant manner? the game so over-showers you with rewards, be they marks, or dil, that you can get enough to buy almost anything in a matter of a few days.

    LOL. Try reaching T6 reputation with every faction on a new character, or generating 3000 Zen for even a single T6 ship in "a matter of a few days".

    Both take months of playing an average of an hour or two (at least) every day.

    The most recent fleet holding requires over 67 MILLION dilithium to get the ultimate rewards.
  • ltminnsltminns Member Posts: 9,046 Arc User
    Content drought, ha.

    'But to be logical is not to be right', and 'nothing' on God's earth could ever 'make it' right!
    Judge Dan Haywood
  • entnx01entnx01 Member Posts: 534 Arc User
    Maybe one of the programmers at Cryptic could give some input in this thread and explain how difficult the transition would be.
    They already have. The original post wants you to believe:

    It turned out that it would take months of work for each individual mission

    Is the estimate of "months" direct from one of the programmers, or from a Cryptic spokesperson forced to say whatever PWE tells them to say? I'd rather hear from one of the programmers, to be honest. And it doesn't have to be a long, in depth answer from them. Just up front and honest. "This is the current time estimate from the programmers. This is their cost estimate. This is how much Foundry code they think would have to be changed to work with the current STO code. Simplified, this is the kind of STO code that keeps breaking the Foundry every time there's a new expansion." Maybe that's what they've been discussing for a year (probably less). If so, it would've been nice if they could've given us updates, to let us know what was going on. Maybe then some of us could've offered them our help (those of us who know how to program, I mean). It wouldn't be paid work for the playerbase to help out, of course. But then again, creating Foundry missions wasn't paid work either. It was a labor of love. Love that made all the blood, sweat, and tears worthwhile.

    Ambassador Kael (supported by Neverwinter's CM, I forget her name) laid out as much information as he could during that livestream. Among that information blast was the statement about taking "months per mission" due to needing to change the missions over from how the Foundry processes things to how the live server does (best summarization I can do without rewatching it and quoting it).

    I think he stated the devs tried it and came up with that estimation, but don't quote me on that. I may have implied that between him saying they tried it and his statement about "months per mission" to adjust for differences in the Foundry versus Holodeck, the live server.

    If you want more detail, I'd suggest you watch the livestream on Twitch or Youtube. The whole stream was about 30 minutes, give or take.

    But if you don't trust Kael because you feel he's, "...forced to say whatever PWE tells them to say," then find a door and leave because no argument that uses information from Cryptic employees, including information from the devs with whom he works, will mean anything to you because they're paid by Cryptic (and maybe PWE, I don't know) and therefore have a vested interest in painting information in as positive a light as possible.
  • somtaawkharsomtaawkhar Member Posts: 5,913 Arc User
    edited March 10
    LOL. Try reaching T6 reputation with every faction on a new character, or generating 3000 Zen for even a single T6 ship in "a matter of a few days".

    Both take months of playing an average of an hour or two (at least) every day.

    The most recent fleet holding requires over 67 MILLION dilithium to get the ultimate rewards.
    With the random TFO system handing out marks like its going out of style, as well as the automatic sponsorship you get from reaching T5 on any character, I can have enough marks to complete all the reps to T6 in a week. I know, because I did it. This not even counting all the mark packs you get from doing endeavors, or when any sort of event is up.

    Cryptic is making it EVEN EASIER with Age of Discovery, as all the TFOs for AoD are seemingly going to allow you to chose whatever marks you want as a reward, even after it stops being an event. We already have Defense of Starbase One, Battle at the Binary Stars, and now Pahvo. I would presume the upcoming "Limited Engagement" TFO will be the same ways as well. And all of them are some the shortest and easiest TFOs in the game, clocking in, at most, 15 minutes.

    I'm not sure why you brought up the colony either, since that isn't something you do on your own, but with your fleet.
  • lagunadlagunad Member Posts: 198 Arc User
    edited March 10
    It's easy to believe that there would be an up-front investment of labor to convert the *first* foundry mission into a real mission.

    But months for EACH mission is pure BS.

    The foundry missions, by design, consist of nothing more than database entries (there is no custom coding involved, because none is possible beyond the very limited selection of "stock" behaviors available through the foundry UI).

    Thus, you have to make a translator for each type of table, and that could take some amount of labor (although it's hard to believe the very simple options in the foundry aren't already supported by Cryptic's "real" tools - and worst case, there is a prototype implementation of any new code required available in whatever the foundry itself does with the data).

    But once you have that, it should take milliseconds to convert each individual mission, not "months".
  • pomonagrange#3097 pomonagrange Member Posts: 112 Arc User
    edited March 10
    I guess I'd better go watch that video and pay close attention to what is said in it.

    I wasn't blaming Kael. He's obviously doing the best he can. What used to be called "being between a rock and a hard place". Previous CMs didn't have it any easier, being the go-between a vocal forum community and the powers-that-be. I just wanted to know if there was anything that could've been added, that hadn't been said before. More detail that could be shared (if so, that's great; if not, I guess that's how it had to be).

    Because I used to work for a company for 6 1/2 years (1993-2000) where there would be occasional meetings (mostly to deal with rumors), but we kept getting told by the new owners (the final ones that the company had) that everything was okay. We would survive. Until the Monday morning I came to work and discovered that the new owners had deep-sixed 60% of the employees ... without any previous warning. And anyone who wasn't willing to relocate to the new owners' state was basically out of a job (I was offered the chance to train a replacement in the new owners' state, after which I wouldn't be needed any longer; I turned it down).

    Please understand me: I *want* STO to survive. I *want* STO to expand, not shrink. I *want* the Foundry back by whatever means are humanly possible. I *want* Cryptic to be able to have more money coming in, be able to keep hiring more people. I *don't* want to wake up one morning and suddenly find that there isn't any STO to log into anymore.
  • somtaawkharsomtaawkhar Member Posts: 5,913 Arc User
    I can buy the idea that converting Foundry missions would take months.

    My time with the Bethesda modding community has given me an idea of how the Foundry probably works. See, Bethesda's official Creation Kit tools have one rather infamous limitation. This limitation being that you cannot use them to add NEW animations to the game, only replace existing ones. So, if you make a new two handed sword, you either have to use the stock swing, or replace the default one for all two handed swords. The reason for this limitation being that Bethesda's animation software is third party, and thus, they lack the legal rights to give it out, or allow people to modify it.

    However, modders want to add new animations to the game, and want custom animations for certain things, so they had to make a workaround. This work around was FNIS, a framework that basically apes in-game animations in a separate, jury rigged, animation system instead of the game's actual animation system. Mods that use FNIS use a rather complex series of spells, or menus, to allow animations not in the normal in-game animation system to play like they were.

    This being said, the animations FNIS uses are not animations like found in the official game, nor do they actually play like animations in the official game, and even if you had the tools to add animations to the game you couldn't just copy paste the animations for FNIS into the game and have them work because of how they are done differently. You would basically have to remake the entire animation as an actual animation of the kind the game normally uses.

    I suspect the Foundry is basically the same thing for STO. It isn't really a mission creator, not does it really make missions, its a mission creator aper, that creates things that ape missions. Thus, I doubt you can really just make a program to convert one to the other. It isn't like making a Jpeg in MS Paint, and then opening it in GIMP to convert it to a new format that isn't available in paint. Its more like drawing on your computer screen with markers, and then trying to recreate the image you drew in GIMP.
  • lagunadlagunad Member Posts: 198 Arc User
    edited March 11
    (Trolling comments moderated out. - BMR)
    Post edited by baddmoonrizin on
  • whamhammer1whamhammer1 Member Posts: 2,290 Arc User
    Let’s face it, the game architecture is more than ten years old, and the architects/engineers (Atari and Co.) have been long since gone/extinct from the game.

    The big question is what is PWE/Cryptic doing to work on a new engine/architecture, that would be able to move the platform for the future?

    Ten years is an eternity for technology based products.
  • somtaawkharsomtaawkhar Member Posts: 5,913 Arc User
    The big question is what is PWE/Cryptic doing to work on a new engine/architecture, that would be able to move the platform for the future?
    They have already said they aren't going to switch engines, or anything like that. Doing so would require remaking the entire game.

    We have however seen them make several changes over the years to major aspects of the game engine like the lighting system, and the animation system.

    Back during Agents of Yesterday they also did a rather large back end change to how items were stored in the game data. Originally every single different MK version of a weapon was its own separate item in the game's database, now, every item is stored as a base level, and has different MK ranks and modifiers attached to it. So instead of having MK 1, MK2, MK3, etc. etc. phaser rifles each being their own item in the game code, there is now just a stock phaser rifle that gets the MKs and mods added onto it. This cut down a lot of database bloat the game had.

    It was also around this time that they went through and changed most of the powers/skills in the game to alter how they made calls to the server to reduce the rather large lag problems that were common during that time. The skills/powers themselves didn't change, except the "Command" ships, since that was the biggest source of the lag, just the way they made calls to the server was.
  • whamhammer1whamhammer1 Member Posts: 2,290 Arc User
    > @somtaawkhar said:
    > whamhammer1 wrote: »
    >
    > The big question is what is PWE/Cryptic doing to work on a new engine/architecture, that would be able to move the platform for the future?
    >
    >
    >
    > They have already said they aren't going to switch engines, or anything like that. Doing so would require remaking the entire game.
    >
    > We have however seen them make several changes over the years to major aspects of the game engine like the lighting system, and the animation system.
    >
    > Back during Agents of Yesterday they also did a rather large back end change to how items were stored in the game data. Originally every single different MK version of a weapon was its own separate item in the game's database, now, every item is stored as a base level, and has different MK ranks and modifiers attached to it. So instead of having MK 1, MK2, MK3, etc. etc. phaser rifles each being their own item in the game code, there is now just a stock phaser rifle that gets the MKs and mods added onto it. This cut down a lot of database bloat the game had.
    >
    > It was also around this time that they went through and changed most of the powers/skills in the game to alter how they made calls to the server to reduce the rather large lag problems that were common during that time. The skills/powers themselves didn't change, except the "Command" ships, since that was the biggest source of the lag, just the way they made calls to the server was.

    Sooner or later, the engine itself is going to be the bottleneck, its just a question of when, and if the company is either beleiving its worth it, or capable of a new system before they have to turn off the lights on it, having to make an all new game or not.
  • somtaawkharsomtaawkhar Member Posts: 5,913 Arc User
    Sooner or later, the engine itself is going to be the bottleneck, its just a question of when, and if the company is either beleiving its worth it, or capable of a new system before they have to turn off the lights on it, having to make an all new game or not.
    Engines are not set in stone. They can be updated, and upgraded, all the time, over time. It all depends on what you need, or want, to do with it.

    All you have to do is look at things like Source, Unreal, or the Gamebryo/Creation engines, which have been updated for over a decade with new features and such.
  • jonsillsjonsills Member Posts: 8,458 Arc User
    If i have a flat tire and need it fixed i either call a tow truck send the car to a shop and know that a grease monkey is needed to fix said tire issue.
    What I refer to is the repeated insistence that it would be "easy" and "simple" to solve all those pesky issues with the Foundry, meaning that there can only be dark and ominous reasons to remove it.

    Your car won't shift gears. Turns out a previous owner tried to "fix" a leaky transmission with epoxy just before dumping the car in a used-car lot. Problem is, automatic transmission fluid dissolves epoxy, so now you've got clumps of the stuff where it shouldn't be and massive leaks where it should. Are you going to sit there and complain about how much the repairs cost and how long they take because it's such a "simple, easy" fix?

    (Full disclosure: The vehicle involved was a 1986 Mercury Sable station wagon, purchased in 1992 for $300. It cost more than that to fix the transmission. When it failed again, I wound up just abandoning the damned thing. In its way, not unlike what's happening here...)
    Lorna-Wing-sig.png
  • pendra37#5088 pendra37 Member Posts: 29 Arc User
    edited March 10
    Guys, be realistic here. The Foundry was down for months during the last update. Maybe something did break, maybe it was a test to gauge the player base reaction to UGC removal. Regardless, the management checked the player count, the revenue flow and the window for torch and pitchfork mobs. Everything was business as usual.
    After this, they realized that having or not having UGC has no effect on the bottom line.
  • somtaawkharsomtaawkhar Member Posts: 5,913 Arc User
    After this, they realized that having or not having UGC has no effect on the bottom line.
    Or at least one small enough that it wouldn't be a major blow.
  • sirsitsalotsirsitsalot Member Posts: 1,673 Arc User
    After this, they realized that having or not having UGC has no effect on the bottom line.
    Or at least one small enough that it wouldn't be a major blow.

    Perhaps that theory can be put to the test. What would happen if as many people who feel affected by the removal of foundry decided to see how Cryptic would react to ZERO zen spent, Zero keys bought and zero lockboxes opened by them. I don't give them any money because they do not sell what I am willing to spend money on, so it makes no nevermind to me. But for those who are tired of things being removed from this game while the money keeps rolling in in quantities that by all rights should ensure that even more stuff gets added and issues that have been plaguing the game for years get fixed, since words don't seem to catch PWE's attention, perhaps cutting off, or reducing the cash flow might.

    The players, aka the PAYERS have the real power. Oh sure... the ban hammer swings and decenters are silenced. But the whole house of cards comes toppling down without the money coming in. My wallet is closed. Has been for years. I've been here since the game was announced, but at this point, I am done caring. There is now nothing this game has that makes me want to even bother giving it any more of my time.

    22 pages of people voicing their displeasure over this. So I ask them, each and every one, What are you going to do about it? Just say, "too bad so sad" and keep tossing money at a company that will not give the devs the redsources they need to start adding to and stop taking from the game? And if they HAVE given them the money to do so, then why are they not breathing down Cryptic's neck and making sure they do it?

    There is a signigicant number of people who do not give a single rip about Star Trek Discovery, but that is where the attention is being placed. I get it that it's the shiny new official Trek and it needs to be represented. I have no problem with that. It's that the REST of the game is having to take a back seat. There should be enough resources to sustain BOTH. And I remember some wisecrack in a thread about exactly this that went something like "There's still the foundry for prime universe stuff..."


    Like I said, I am done caring. The more I think about the decision to remove Foundry, yet another system that clearly means a lot to a lot of people for a lot of reasons removed because they cannot be bothered to fix it or improve it.


    Hey you jerks who said "We don't need them to make an exploration system. We have the Foundry for that."

    Think about this... What's the next big feature that has been broken for years with no indication it's going to be fixed? PvP. The current narrative of STO is all about the alliance, which I am fine with. But every time a new origin story is introduced ubder the name "Faction" the forum explodes in rage that it is yet another option that will never remain unique unto itself and is just another way to restart the game with a new toon and end up grinding the same old content all over again. The only reason we have "factions" as in the two original ones is related to PvP. And that actually stands in the way of the game truly evolving into being about the alliance, which is where all the PvE content leads. The removal of PvP will allow all races to be rolled into one, with the starting content dependent on the species we choose to play...

    If they are willing to remove foundry which provided a constant stream of content that they didn't have to make between the slow official content drops, then I submit to you that PvP is not immune. That isd why everyone should care about the impact this decision will have. I understanf that there are those who do not care about the Foundry... Fine... But what happens when they decide to remove the thing you care about? What if one day they decide that we're all part of the same community and that having fleets divides us, and so effective on such and such date, the fleet system will be going away. What was the last thing that was done to really give Fleet gameplay attention?

    Think about it. A line needs to be drawn. Cryptic clearly isn't drawing it. So I am. On that side of the line, we have a mediocre game that has just signed the death warrant for the only feature that sets it apart from other MMOs aside from Neverwinter, with no plans to replace it and with a statement that their current development process will not change, meaning official content will continue to roll out at a snails pace. On this side of the line a game is represented whose developers will do whatever they can to see it reach its full potential. That's a game I want to see. That is a game I would spend money on. If I am the only person on this side of the line, so be it.

    Goodbye.
    I have no snarky remarks to make, at this time...
  • somtaawkharsomtaawkhar Member Posts: 5,913 Arc User
    edited March 11
    There is a signigicant number of people who do not give a single rip about Star Trek Discovery, but that is where the attention is being placed. I get it that it's the shiny new official Trek and it needs to be represented. I have no problem with that. It's that the REST of the game is having to take a back seat. There should be enough resources to sustain BOTH. And I remember some wisecrack in a thread about exactly this that went something like "There's still the foundry for prime universe stuff..."
    Well
    A. Discovery is Prime Timeline.
    B. Discovery is no more making the rest of the game take a back seat then Legacy of Romulus, Delta Rising, Agents of Yesterday, or Victory is Life, did.

    The Age of Discovery stuff is just as much the continuation of the game as the Tzenkethi/Hur'q plot was. And just like the Tzenkethi/Hur'q plot had jack all to do with pretty much anything in the game before it, the Age of Discovery plot was pretty much jack all to do with the Tzenkethi/Hur'q plot.

    Cryptic has said, since the Iconian War ended, that there wouldn't be a giant meta-narrative, no "super Iconians" pulling the strings behind everything, and that we would instead see more stories that aren't really connected to the narrative they had spent the last 6 years building, because that narrative was over.

    On a less narrative focus, Age of Discovery has seen
    -The introduction of the random TFO system. Which makes it far easier to play the TFOs you want, and get more rewards for playing TFOs in general.
    -The introduction of T6 reputations. Which included an auto-sponsor for reaching T5, as well as account wide project cost reduction unlocks. Making leveling reputations on alts, and equipping them with rep gear, easier then before.
    -The introduction of the personal endeavor system. Which encourages and rewards people for playing TFOs, battlezones, and other bits of content that they otherwise might not normally play, allowing more people to play them in general.
    -QoL features like the much asked for "fill all" button
    -A revamped character creation menu
    -Weston going back and revamping all the older mission cutscenes to a much higher standard.
    -While it isn't out yet, Andre the EP has talked about how they are going to add "TFO playlists".
    On a systems level, every single major change Age of Discovery has brought has benefited ALL the content in the game, not just the Age of Discovery content.

    Not only on a narrative level is the idea that Age of Discovery is forcing the rest of the game to take a bast seat wrong, its wrong on a systems level as well. In the last 6 months Cryptic has done more to improve all of the game's content then they had in the last few years.
    The removal of PvP will allow all races to be rolled into one, with the starting content dependent on the species we choose to play...
    The removal of PVP would do nothing to make all the races able to be rolled into one, as the division between Fed and KDF goes far deeper then just the PVP system. Likewise, having a big Alliance doesn't negate a PVP system either. Guild wars 2 has every major race come together as part of The Pact, and it still has a PVP system where its all just wargames and battles in The Mists.
    If they are willing to remove foundry which provided a constant stream of content that they didn't have to make between the slow official content drops, then I submit to you that PvP is not immune. That isd why everyone should care about the impact this decision will have. I understanf that there are those who do not care about the Foundry... Fine... But what happens when they decide to remove the thing you care about? What if one day they decide that we're all part of the same community and that having fleets divides us, and so effective on such and such date, the fleet system will be going away. What was the last thing that was done to really give Fleet gameplay attention?
    This isn't really a valid argument. Fleets aren't an underused system, full of old code no one understands, that breaks every time the game updates, like The Foundry was. Cryptic has already said that, while they might not make another fleet holding, if they don't, they will likely create some sort of new fleet thing so fleet members can keep contributing. Its a system they are very obviously keen on updating.

    Likewise, we know one of the devs has had a doff system revamp drawn up for like three years, and the main reason they haven't gone through with it is because of how invested people are in the current system, but they might do it at some point in the future. So even Doffing, probably the least updated feature in the game besides PVP, is still something that is sticking around. Nor is doffing as broken, or constantly breaking, as the Foundry was either.

    PVP might go, but that's something people have been expecting for awhile.
    meaning official content will continue to roll out at a snails pace.
    Compared to most MMORPGs, STO releases content at a fairly fast pace. Most MMOs make you wait 4-5 months between new content, Cryptic cut that down to two since Delta Rising, and now they are doing something MONTHLY, be it a new TFO, new missions, or a new gameplay system. If you think Cryptic releases new content at a nsials pace, then most other MMOs much seem to move at a glacial pace.
    Post edited by somtaawkhar on
  • roguealltrekroguealltrek Member Posts: 105 Arc User
    jonsills wrote: »
    If i have a flat tire and need it fixed i either call a tow truck send the car to a shop and know that a grease monkey is needed to fix said tire issue.
    What I refer to is the repeated insistence that it would be "easy" and "simple" to solve all those pesky issues with the Foundry, meaning that there can only be dark and ominous reasons to remove it.

    Your car won't shift gears. Turns out a previous owner tried to "fix" a leaky transmission with epoxy just before dumping the car in a used-car lot. Problem is, automatic transmission fluid dissolves epoxy, so now you've got clumps of the stuff where it shouldn't be and massive leaks where it should. Are you going to sit there and complain about how much the repairs cost and how long they take because it's such a "simple, easy" fix?

    (Full disclosure: The vehicle involved was a 1986 Mercury Sable station wagon, purchased in 1992 for $300. It cost more than that to fix the transmission. When it failed again, I wound up just abandoning the damned thing. In its way, not unlike what's happening here...)

    In my posts i have not in any way called this easy to do i remember me saying some thing along the lines of a code wizard to wave a wand to fix problems. And that it is not what happens. And in the case of your busted car that was screwed from the start by some underhanded person intent on patching something to pass off a faulty product. The used car you mention in this case is not the best reference possible.

    To translate that over to this game would indicate some one did a sorry patch to jury rig the code to sell it off on some one else knowing it was TRIBBLE. If that is the case now then it is not a good place to be in for the company to say the least on this.

    At least indicating a flat tire something that is a random problem is no indication of some malice plot by any one. To me that is a better outlook of what we face here. TRIBBLE happens, no one likes a repair bill.

    Staff retention of coders, and its not a outlandish ideal to contract employment with a clause of requiring the training of a person upon termination, or mutual parting of the ways i should think may have kept us from landing where we are. How ever i have no insider information to say one way or the other if they have in fact taken this form of staff training and retention. This is just my view on it in any case.

    TLDR Life happens, no one likes everything, the foundry is going, lack of code understanding and how to fix old code brings to question the future as having the ability maintain this game, Time will tell.

    And last but not least i have spent to much time posting in this topic as it is so see every one in game or not depending on there choice.
    To be or not to be: B)
  • somtaawkharsomtaawkhar Member Posts: 5,913 Arc User
    patrickngo wrote: »
    thus, it should definitely be removed
    Sure, why not.

    The time would be better spent on implementing things like
    -A doff revamp
    -A U.I. revamp
    -Item deltas
    -Some sort of specialization loadout/preset feature so you can switch between a "space" and "ground" specialization selection depending on what TFO you get pulled into
    -A dedicated EV suit slot so that you don't have to keep switching out between normal armor and EV suits
    And other such similar features that would help the game overall more.
  • somtaawkharsomtaawkhar Member Posts: 5,913 Arc User
    edited March 11
    Seriously?
    Like I said, MOST, not all. ESO is a game that I highly praise for its frequent releases, even if almost everything they release is behind a pay wall.
    STO releases two missions every 3 months, that's about 90 minutes worth of content based on 45 min each playthrough, at that rate you're talking 6 hours a year, or around a tenth of the content from ESO.
    Odd that you included dungeons in ESO, but not TFOs in STO, despite TFOs being STO's dungeon equivalent.
    They have never reintroduced previous elite content such as the Borg STFs
    Well
    A. They shouldn't reintroduce the elite Borg TFOs since the Borg TFOs are abominable, and need to be revamped. Which is exactly what Cryptic said in a livestream not too long ago about why they haven't done it.
    B. As for elite content in general. I count 31 elite TFOs in the game right now.
    nSvLcIt.jpg
    Let's just look at some of the problems:
    Well
    A. Some of those aren't broken(You de-cloaking for conversation isn't a problem. Not liking it =/= a problem)
    B. Many of those aren't bugs(Cryptic has outright confirmed they intentionally mixed both the normal and Disco warp sounds together)
    C. Cryptic is actively working on several of them(Weston is going back and fixing the cutscenes and other animation problems like people standing on chairs)
    D. Things every MMO has(just look at the massive novel sized buglist of ESO, WoW, Guild Wars 2.)
    New Romulus looks the same today as it did years ago!
    So like every MMORPG where zones are almost always forever time locked into the period of the game's timeline they are first introduced in? Why would they change it when the zone still needs to be that way for new players, or new alts, that need to play through that part of the game's storyline?
    No new Faction specific missions, ie no continuing development of the Romulan story, the Jem'Hadar story, the ToS story, only the DISCO characters are continuing to get updated.
    This is just fundamentally untrue. The idea that the story of the Romulans, Klingons, or whoever, can only be continued via faction specific missions makes no sense. If the Romulans, Klingons, Federation, Dominion, or whoever were having large scale problems, why wouldn't they ask for assistance from their allies? Not to mention things like the Borg Invasion, Undine Infiltration, Iconian War, Temporal Cold War, Hur'q crisis, affect EVERY species, so its EVERY species story and EVERY species problem. All these cross faction story arcs are the continuation of EVERY faction's story, since they all effect every faction.
    Then there are the stupid things like level 50 battlezones for the Dyson sphere
    No update to the fleet system, like the much-requested armada mail since it was introduced.
    100,000 fleet admirals running around everywhere mining dilithium
    A totally pointless cooldown on transwarp abilities
    Space effects so out of control you can't even see your ship half the time unless you're in a J
    Insane damage from torpedoes of enemy ships from time to time on any difficulty level
    Patrols that you can only play once unless you drop before handing in effectively removing even more content
    -Every MMO I have played has kept things like battlezones at the level range they were first introduced in because that is the point of the game you are supposed to play them. Why would something designed for pre-60 players be scaled for level 60 players?
    -Do new fleet holdings not count as updates to you?
    -The 100,00 fleet admirals things is typical MMO separation of gameplay and story. Wow, ESO, GW2, all have this exact same thing. How do you expect a multiplayer game with a story to play out?
    -I agree on the transwarp cooldowns, but that's a minor issue
    -I never lose sight of my Oddy, or most of my ships.
    -The only torpedo damage I have ever had problems with is the Borg invisa-torp. Which they seemingly fixed ages ago.
    -Those one off patrols are content from the game's launch era. They should just be axed for how awful they are. Even Cryptic realized that and made all the Deferi, Romulan, and Delta Quadrant, patrols replayable. And there is like 45 of those.
    Oh, the list is endless, but you know what made it all worthwhile? Playing the latest adventure from one of your fleet mates in a group, once you'd figured out the workarounds to let you actually play as a team because that is broken too.
    I can't really agree. Even some of the best foundry content such as the Purity series had the writing and level design quality of “Divide et Impera”
    it's not Elite STFs because they are mostly gone,
    There are 31 elite TFOs in the game right now, and 6 have been removed. You still have 5 times as much elite TFOs are you did before.
  • somtaawkharsomtaawkhar Member Posts: 5,913 Arc User
    edited March 11
    patrickngo wrote: »
    the Ensign Flatulent bug is a bug, they only fixed it on a few maps, but that doesn't mean it's either a feature, or a good idea. (but then, having more than the Federation as a faction when you can't handle it, or incorporating a mechanic you can't design content to make use of? also not good ideas-at least, for Cryptic.)

    Cloaking is something that was designed into the game, but the game designers haven't a clue how to implement content to make actual use of, hence needing to borrow rom's cousin's second hand cloak when you've got a perfectly functional one on your own ship. they can't wrap their heads around tactical employments for stealth, hence all engagements, no matter how stupid the timing, must be fought uncloaked and in the open as god and Gene Roddenberry intended for Starfleet-even when you're not Starfleet.
    Or, you know, the actual reason for it being that way.

    That being that not everyone has a cloak, so they need to design every encounter in such a way that everyone can do it. And even if they do have one, overriding it with the mission NPCs ensures the mission proceeds as it should.

    Also, both Klingons and Romulans fight uncloaked in the TV shows, since the vast majority of cloaks in the TV shows don't allow you to fire when cloaked. The ones that did, like Chang's, or the one on Shinzon's Scimitar, never made it into mainstream use. Cloaking was only ever used to get close to someone before opening fire. It was never used as something "you stay in it all the time while fighting", outside of the aforementioned two exceptions.
  • angrytargangrytarg Member Posts: 9,768 Arc User
    If you still play, even without spending, you are still supporting the game. You'd have to completely quit for it to have any effect.
    2r2u1s2.jpg
    ^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
    "No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
    "A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
    "That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
  • seaofsorrowsseaofsorrows Member Posts: 7,582 Arc User
    lagunad wrote: »
    It's easy to believe that there would be an up-front investment of labor to convert the *first* foundry mission into a real mission.

    But months for EACH mission is pure BS.

    The foundry missions, by design, consist of nothing more than database entries (there is no custom coding involved, because none is possible beyond the very limited selection of "stock" behaviors available through the foundry UI).

    Thus, you have to make a translator for each type of table, and that could take some amount of labor (although it's hard to believe the very simple options in the foundry aren't already supported by Cryptic's "real" tools - and worst case, there is a prototype implementation of any new code required available in whatever the foundry itself does with the data).

    But once you have that, it should take milliseconds to convert each individual mission, not "months".

    Great.. since you obviously have it all figured out, why don't you just head on over to Cryptic's Careers page and dazzle them with your skills. I'm sure with your vast and in depth knowledge of the coding behind the game, you'll have things fixed in no time!

    We're saved! :lol:
    swjxSvG.jpg

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  • zorky63zorky63 Member Posts: 19 Arc User
    Well this is a bitter-sweet moment .

    It's sweet because a certain number of Foundry authors who through the years thought to tell the more 'mainstream' players what to play and more importantly how to play with the Foundry are getting their due .
    I hope that the extra few dozen or few hundred playthroughs their own missions got thanks to this busybodie type of behavior (that decidedly turned off other segments of the playerbase to the Foundry) , was in the end well worth it .

    Yet like I said, it's also a bitter moment ... , both personally as someone who enjoyed solo & team content in the Foundry , and in terms of the 'piece in the bigger picture' as it were .

    The 'bigger picture' as some posts here have partially eluded to has been a sordid one .
    From the initial & enthusiastic "go make your own stories guys! " , we went to "yeah, we're moving the folks working on the Foundry over to develop the Foundry for Neverwinter ..." , to "yeah, STO's Foundry was a Beta for Neverwinter (to see if we could do it), but don't worry guys, 'cuz things are gonna trickle back to the STO Foundry as we move to the next 'branch' of code" , to "Yes, Maria is a big proponent of the Foundry, and in her spare time she tags new(er) in game assets to be usable in the Foundry" .

    I'll skip the rest, but those are a few examples of STO devs keeping us in the loop as to the ongoing's in Foundry land , through interviews, podcasts and posts on the old forums.
    Now look in contrast to the Q/A that is presented in the OP .
    That Q/A gives us a song & dance about the Foundry sunset that goes back as far as a year .
    Yet not a peep about said 'sunsetting' in that year .
    Not to generate interest in the Foundry .
    Not to let this dedicated part of the community (one that at one time had two dedicated podcasts and several segments in general STO podcasts) get their affairs and missions in order .

    And still in the 'big picture' mode :
    In the past, STO lost devs to the development of Neverwinter .
    Cryptic is now developing a new MMO (Magic the Gathering) , one to which we already lost two devs (afaik) , and one that I expect to see talent move to from the devs of Neverwinter as well .
    In other words, I think / suppose / speculate & conspire theory -- that just like the Champions dev team took a hit for STO (we got Taco from there), and then STO team took a hit for Neverwinter, now STO & Neverwinter will (or have taken) a hit for the ongoing development of Magic the Gathering .
    This is how Cryptic works .

    One way to 'take a hit' is to transfer/move devs .
    Another way is to tighten the belt ... , and this is where the Foundry comes in .
    Considering that it's getting shut down both in STO and in Neverwinter -- that taken together points to an unsuccessful venture ... , despite Neverwinter having gotten a better Foundry user interface (or so I'm told) and in general a better user experience .

    In short, this has less (or equally) to do with "we no longer have 'legacy coders' " and more to do with "yeah, we needed to trim the budget and we knew about it a year ago, so we did what we could" .

    The 'heroic efforts' described in the Q/A could be real, and they could be a "we really don't want to come off as the bad guys here" .
    In this age of 'fake news' from "official sources", both are equally possible ... , and I point to a different era that I described previously, when bad things were happening but we were kept in the loop (somewhat) , unlike the current : 'yeah, the Foundry has been on the chopping block for a year now, but we're just getting around to tell you guys ... so here, have a badge & stuff" .
    (and no, I'm not mocking the awards that are given -- just pointing to the way it comes off in terms of PR)

    And since it's a custom in this thread, I too offer my thanks to the Foundry authors, podcasters, devs & supporters .
    You have all added a layer to STO that will be missed either in short term or in long term .

    And speaking of long term -- if any STO dev happends to read this -- since you guys are saving the missions, I hope you're doing that in a way to re-instate them somehow once STO reaches 'maintenance mode' (see CO for reference) .
    Because the last time you guys tried to roll out one of your past builds (as an April's Fools joke if I remember correctly ) -- well that didn't go too well as I recall .


    ... and if anyone reading this has an affinity to the old Borg STF's , then crank the mission difficulty level up to Elite and give the Foundry mission 'Perfection' a try. I didn't write it, but for me it was the best Borg pew-pew I could find on the Foundry , and I tried nearly all I could find ...
This discussion has been closed.