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Endeavor Perks are too Powerful

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  • colonelmarikcolonelmarik Member Posts: 1,533 Arc User
    The issue I have with the power creep, which this DOES contribute to, is that it forces the devs to make newer content stronger in order to challenge the people with all the bells and whistles. That puts newer players or those who don't HAVE those bells and whistles at a disadvantage. As it is, I can't fight a Tzenkethi ship one on one, and I've been here since launch (I just haven't had time or opportunity to get the magic goodies some other have). If enemies have to become even STRONGER... well, there just won't be any way to play.
    Once, I was simply called Mojo. Now, I'm forced into a new name, but don't be fooled, I'm the original STO Mojo!

    This game needs detailed crafting, exploration and interaction systems.
  • colonelmarikcolonelmarik Member Posts: 1,533 Arc User
    edited February 5
    vendood wrote: »
    (I'm not good at editing the quote system so this may be a bit choppy. )

    Picture a newer player, seeing a Borg Red Alert weekend coming up, thinking "Ah this is cool, this is what Star Trek is all about, me defending the quadrant against the Borg onslaught". He enters his Red Alert (because nothing in the game tells him he shouldn't), looks around for his first Borg spawn, hits Full Impulse... and the 4 guys he's in with are 30% faster than him, know exactly where to go, and have weapons that will decimate the Borg before he even finishes clicking off his Full Impulse.

    So he looks for his next Borg spawn, waits for Full Impulse to be ready again, rockets off... and that one is dead before he is even 1/2 way there. Repeat until Unimatrix, then repeat again. This already happens. It will only get worse with perks.

    Stack +Speed with +Damage, add +Crits/CritSev and +Resists, toss in the advantage veterans always have (experience, knowledge, practice, better builds etc), and you massively magnify take a problem that already exists. This isn't about being on par with veterans... it's about being able to participate at all.

    I'll verify this, it's happened to me twice now.
    Once, I was simply called Mojo. Now, I'm forced into a new name, but don't be fooled, I'm the original STO Mojo!

    This game needs detailed crafting, exploration and interaction systems.
  • cncshadecncshade Member Posts: 19 Arc User
    The issue I have with the power creep, which this DOES contribute to, is that it forces the devs to make newer content stronger in order to challenge the people with all the bells and whistles. That puts newer players or those who don't HAVE those bells and whistles at a disadvantage. As it is, I can't fight a Tzenkethi ship one on one, and I've been here since launch (I just haven't had time or opportunity to get the magic goodies some other have). If enemies have to become even STRONGER... well, there just won't be any way to play.
    Sounds like a personal problem to me. If you are not ready or geared to fight end game enemies then you SHOULDN'T. Like you said end game should be HARDER for people who have all the goodies. What makes you think that you should be able to go into a queue perform poorly and mess the queue up for everybody else who is ready for that queue? If you don't have the time to play, or get the "Bells and whistles" Everybody else playing end content has you shouldn't be in the end game content to begin with.

    Sincerely - A experienced Veteran player
  • darkbladejkdarkbladejk Member Posts: 1,596 Community Moderator
    The issue I have with the power creep, which this DOES contribute to, is that it forces the devs to make newer content stronger in order to challenge the people with all the bells and whistles. That puts newer players or those who don't HAVE those bells and whistles at a disadvantage. As it is, I can't fight a Tzenkethi ship one on one, and I've been here since launch (I just haven't had time or opportunity to get the magic goodies some other have). If enemies have to become even STRONGER... well, there just won't be any way to play.

    Why would you expect a newer player to be able to perform at the same level a veteran player does? As I pointed out to the other guy, veteran players will almost always be able to run circles around the newer players and outperform them simply because they have more experience and typically better equipment. That's not a bad nor does it mean the new guy sucks. It simply means he/she has not been around long enough yet to get to that same level of gear an experience. With proper time and effort, every single player coming into the game today will eventually be able to get to the same level of power and experience that even the highest of DPS players can do, but it won't happen over night.

    If you're having as much difficulty as you're saying, then I have to ask first and foremost, what difficulty are you on? Second, what does your build look like? You don't need to spend a dime on the game to get the "magic goodies" that some of us veterans have. The only thing really you need to spend cash to get is the Lifetime ships, and honestly you don't need them to succeed, they're just nice to have. With a basic cohesive build you should be able to nuke through anything on normal mode no problem. Every foe in game is killable, you just need to have a cohesive build and know how to beat them. Both of those things can be taught and learned. it's absolutely possible to build a ship that will survive in normal and advanced content with little issues, while dealing decent damage, and never touching cash or EC over 2m ec.

    If I were to put together a couple of basic builds using the free ships and free gear and posted them for people to draw ideas from, would you folks find that helpful? Don't mean that to sound snarky if it does, that's a straight forward question. Despite how my tone may sound I actually do want to see people do better.
    "Someone once told me that time was a predator that stalked us all our lives. I rather believe that time is a companion who goes with us on the journey and reminds us to cherish every moment, because it will never come again." - Jean Luc Picard in Star Trek Generations

    Star Trek Online volunteer Community Moderator
  • peterconnorfirstpeterconnorfirst Member Posts: 4,975 Arc User
    edited February 5
    The issue I have with the power creep, which this DOES contribute to, is that it forces the devs to make newer content stronger in order to challenge the people with all the bells and whistles. That puts newer players or those who don't HAVE those bells and whistles at a disadvantage. As it is, I can't fight a Tzenkethi ship one on one, and I've been here since launch (I just haven't had time or opportunity to get the magic goodies some other have). If enemies have to become even STRONGER... well, there just won't be any way to play.

    I am not convinced of that.

    See what they did to PvE difficulty the past years:

    -Delta Rising: Content was made considerably harder b4 players were able to grab the power creep released with it to compensate
    -S13: Massive nerf to meta attributes without touching the content itself making it a bit harder again
    -ViL: Level cap increase with and minor increase in difficulty

    Even though there have been those mentioned setbacks we look at a constant increase of players powers and therefor an increasingly easier to play game. This can be witnessed in form of DPS figures or the overall timeframe it takes to complete maps. Look at ISA speed records:

    -S11.5: 45 seconds
    -S12: 41 seconds
    -S13: 59 seconds
    -S14: 43 seconds
    -ViL: 36 seconds
    - Current: 33 seconds

    Overall you do not need to worry about the difficulty. The Devs seem to be enthusiastic about making the game more and more easy. I would roughly guess they want to reach a certain threshold where the “average team” can play most PvE so relaxed that the “effort/reward” ratio is met for the majority of players in this game.

    What you do however need to worry about is the widening gap between players who are at the bottom or the top of power creep.

    Or in other words you need to invest more and more to keep the game easy for you. New players can catch on (in time). Lazy and/or stupid players however have trouble if they expect to be able to have a good time in PvE.
    Post edited by peterconnorfirst on
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  • seaofsorrowsseaofsorrows Member Posts: 7,271 Arc User
    The issue I have with the power creep, which this DOES contribute to, is that it forces the devs to make newer content stronger in order to challenge the people with all the bells and whistles. That puts newer players or those who don't HAVE those bells and whistles at a disadvantage. As it is, I can't fight a Tzenkethi ship one on one, and I've been here since launch (I just haven't had time or opportunity to get the magic goodies some other have). If enemies have to become even STRONGER... well, there just won't be any way to play.

    I am not convinced of that.

    See what they did to PvE difficulty the past years:

    -Delta Rising: Content was made considerably harder b4 players were able to grab the power creep released with it to compensate
    -S13: Massive nerf to meta attributes without touching the content itself making it a bit harder again
    -ViL: Level cap increase with and minor increase in difficulty

    Even though there have been those mentioned setbacks we look at a constant increase of players powers and therefor an increasingly easier to play game. This can be witnessed in form of DPS figures or the overall timeframe it takes to complete maps. Look at ISA speed records:

    -S11.5: 45 seconds
    -S12: 41 seconds
    -S13: 59 seconds
    -S14: 43 seconds
    -ViL: 36 seconds
    - Current: 33 seconds

    Overall you do not need to worry about the difficulty. The Devs seem to be enthusiastic about making the game more and more easier. I would roughly guess they want to reach a certain threshold where the “average team” can play most PvE so relaxed that the “effort/reward” ratio is met for the majority of players in this game.

    What you do however need to worry about is the widening gap between players who are at the bottom or the top of power creep.

    Or in other words you need to invest more and more to keep the game easy for you. New players can catch on (in time). Lazy and/or stupid players however have trouble if they expect to be able to have a good time in PvE.

    Agreed, the benefits are being applied equally.. the difference is that some will use them effectively and others will not. This is not a result of 'power creep' or anything else.. it's the result of some players inability or unwillingness to evolve and improve.

    For example, we're talking about Endeavors giving a possible 7.5% to Critical Chance. The worry is that this will take top end players and make them even more powerful.. and yes.. it will. The thing is the new player, the lower tier player and everyone in between has the exact same access to that 7.5% Critical Chance. The benefits are being offered to absolutely everyone, the difference is that some will optimize their builds around it and others will not. That's how things are now, and it's how things will always be.

    I propose that these 'power creep' boosts will actually help mid level players far more then higher level players. The 'uber DPS'er' now goes from taking .9 seconds to kill a cube to .7.. who cares? But the player that's somewhere in the middle is actually going to benefit far more from that extra critical chance. Part of the reason that the high DPS'er is killing so much faster is because they're already stacking items and abilities to increase critical chance.. now people are getting it basically built into their builds for nothing. If anything, it helps close the gap. Adding that extra chance to a player that already has a high critical chance doesn't do as much as giving it to a player with a middle of the pack critical chance.

    The ones that refuse to evolve, refuse to accept help or try and improve are still going to be in the exact same position they are now. Those looking to improve will now have an easier time doing so. The Developers do not design content to appeal to the top end of the spectrum.. they never have and there is no reason to believe that they will start doing it now. Endeavor perks are not going to make the game harder, it's going to make it easier.

    The improvement is going to be most prevalent in players doing 'middle of the pack' DPS..they are going to see the biggest gains. Top DPS'ers are going to see a modest improvement.. at best, and the lower tier players are pretty much going to stay exactly where they are now.
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  • peterconnorfirstpeterconnorfirst Member Posts: 4,975 Arc User
    edited February 5
    Like usual @seaofsorrows describes it well @colonelmarik

    It is “easy” power creep if you will this time. It won’t touch your canon ship build philosophies, you do not need to get acquainted with new abilities or learn how to pilot better or whatever. You will just end up being better with whatever you do at whatever level and content you do it.

    Go for it! :)
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    Looking for a fun PvE fleet? Join us at Omega Combat Division today.
    felisean wrote: »
    teamwork to reach a goal is awesome and highly appreciated
  • coldnapalmcoldnapalm Member Posts: 7,158 Arc User
    The issue I have with the power creep, which this DOES contribute to, is that it forces the devs to make newer content stronger in order to challenge the people with all the bells and whistles. That puts newer players or those who don't HAVE those bells and whistles at a disadvantage. As it is, I can't fight a Tzenkethi ship one on one, and I've been here since launch (I just haven't had time or opportunity to get the magic goodies some other have). If enemies have to become even STRONGER... well, there just won't be any way to play.

    Wait they have? Because what I see is they make the same old same old easy as pie enemies with a gimick or two that really doesn't require more than BASIC game mechanics 101 with rather basic gear to do. They have been giving us stupid levels of power creep since DR dropped. I mean that last balance patch was all but undone with a month of power creep releases. At the rate that power creep happens, any difficulty increases they do will be a moot point in a month. And once again, this is beyond the point that all you need is common mark XII gear on your free T5 ship using even store bought boff abilities. Maybe getting CSV III for like 25k EC on the exchange if you are on a cannon boat with a cmdr tact slot or GW III for about the same for sci ships.
  • colonelmarikcolonelmarik Member Posts: 1,533 Arc User
    I simply can't agree. The content in the game may be easy for you all, but it's NOT for me, and I'm pretty decently equipped. A newer player with more basic gear is going to be completely unable to compete with the likes of the Iconians or the Tzenkethi.

    For example, I created a brand new Jem'Hadar back when it was introduced. He started out at max level with a T5U bugship and all the Jem'Hadar gear. With this character, I went into the Dominion story arc against the Hur'q. The first couple of phases were ok, but when I had to engage the larger groups in space, my ship was destroyed over and over and over and over, more or less one shotted a staggering 500 times (approximately). I'd respawn, fly over and blow up as soon as I arrived.

    Players with less formidable gear and flying Tier 5 ships are simply going to get slagged over and over with no real hope of competing. The reason is that you more or less HAVE to have the super expensive fancy gear with all the expensive, rare, fancy consoles and arrange your ship and skills for the absolute maximum efficiency... just to have a chance.

    I understand what you're saying, but I've experienced it firsthand, so I can't agree.

    Older content... the Klingons, the Romulans, the Orions... they're not so bad. By the time you get to the Voth, the Na'Kul and the Tzenkethi, there's no way to fight them unless you're spectacularly equipped... because the newer enemies are all designed to challenge people with massive dps; something newer players or more casual players simply won't be able to produce.
    Once, I was simply called Mojo. Now, I'm forced into a new name, but don't be fooled, I'm the original STO Mojo!

    This game needs detailed crafting, exploration and interaction systems.
  • seaofsorrowsseaofsorrows Member Posts: 7,271 Arc User
    I simply can't agree. The content in the game may be easy for you all, but it's NOT for me, and I'm pretty decently equipped. A newer player with more basic gear is going to be completely unable to compete with the likes of the Iconians or the Tzenkethi.

    I am not trying to be confrontational, but the reason you struggle is because you don't use advice you have been given. The game is only hard because you're making it hard. The increase in power from perks might help players like yourself that only want to do things a certain way no matter what. The game is certainly not going to get harder for you.
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  • casualstocasualsto Member Posts: 516 Arc User
    It's a small bonus and usually cryptic holds the numbers crunched.

    Stop creating problems where there is none. Most of the users would benefit those bonuses a lot without causing "Power creep" (Which is the complaint of these fun-lacking, picky chronically bored people who can't enjoy the game and wish to ruin it for everyone).
  • colonelmarikcolonelmarik Member Posts: 1,533 Arc User
    I simply can't agree. The content in the game may be easy for you all, but it's NOT for me, and I'm pretty decently equipped. A newer player with more basic gear is going to be completely unable to compete with the likes of the Iconians or the Tzenkethi.

    I am not trying to be confrontational, but the reason you struggle is because you don't use advice you have been given. The game is only hard because you're making it hard. The increase in power from perks might help players like yourself that only want to do things a certain way no matter what. The game is certainly not going to get harder for you.

    No worries, I see no confrontation here, just discussion. I hope my comments will be taken the same way.

    But that's the thing. I have taken advice, and my build is far better than it once was... and I still have problems with Iconians, Tzenkethi and others. And that's just my main. My many alts simply don't have access to the gear my main does, and they cannot compete. My Klingon (Marik) is flying a lovely, shiny new Tier 6 QeHpu' cruiser, and he could not do the Iconian story arc. Every space battle amounted to him being destroyed over and over while the NPCs did all the actual work. Even my MAIN has difficulty with that stuff. In fact, my main was in the queue mission against the Tzenkethi once, and got separated from the rest of the group while fighting a lone cruiser. This was in my Tier 6 Pathfinder. She's also fairly decently equipped with much of the fancy gear and skills (as suggested by someone). I fought that cruiser by myself for an HOUR and could not damage it. I hit it with everything I had, and it simply shrugged it off. The mission ended with us circling around uselessly blasting each other (he couldn't kill me either, but at least I had to be on my toes).

    From my perspective, it's just a matter of looking at the earlier content, then at the later content. I can go back and do Stranded in Space, or the Klingon story arc, and simply cruise through it with no difficulty. When I get to the later stuff... forget about it, I'm going to get constantly slagged, because that content was designed to be hard enough to compensate for the power creep.

    Now, I've been around long enough to adapt. Many people have not. My concern with the new endeavours is that it will exacerbate an issue that's already a problem.
    Once, I was simply called Mojo. Now, I'm forced into a new name, but don't be fooled, I'm the original STO Mojo!

    This game needs detailed crafting, exploration and interaction systems.
  • markhawkmanmarkhawkman Member Posts: 33,587 Arc User
    Older content... the Klingons, the Romulans, the Orions... they're not so bad. By the time you get to the Voth, the Na'Kul and the Tzenkethi, there's no way to fight them unless you're spectacularly equipped... because the newer enemies are all designed to challenge people with massive dps; something newer players or more casual players simply won't be able to produce.
    HAHAAHA.... The main whine with the Voth is that their reflective shield ability is literally designed to kill keyboard macro builds. You know, the "press spacebar to activate 12 tactical buffs simultaneously" type builds. Throwing massive DPS at the reflective shield is just going to kill you and makes spike DPS builds a risky proposition since you often won't have time to react before your own DPS rips you apart.

    Thing is... that's not a problem most new players have. Well, unless they got their build from a forum post somewhere... Then again, looking up builds isn't really a newbie thing, now is it? Instead new players will poke at the Voth until the Voth eventually die of boredom.
    -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
    My character Tsin'xing
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  • ihatepwe735ihatepwe735 Member Posts: 337 Arc User
    Older content... the Klingons, the Romulans, the Orions... they're not so bad. By the time you get to the Voth, the Na'Kul and the Tzenkethi, there's no way to fight them unless you're spectacularly equipped... because the newer enemies are all designed to challenge people with massive dps; something newer players or more casual players simply won't be able to produce.
    HAHAAHA.... The main whine with the Voth is that their reflective shield ability is literally designed to kill keyboard macro builds. You know, the "press spacebar to activate 12 tactical buffs simultaneously" type builds. Throwing massive DPS at the reflective shield is just going to kill you and makes spike DPS builds a risky proposition since you often won't have time to react before your own DPS rips you apart.

    I don't know if you noticed, but the profusion of skills, limits of the action bars, means that if you don't use keybinds you are running at a massive disadvantage, and can't clear top end content anyway.

    Or you've magically found a way to have your mouse cursor in 3 places at once. If so, do share.

  • peterconnorfirstpeterconnorfirst Member Posts: 4,975 Arc User
    edited February 5
    Older content... the Klingons, the Romulans, the Orions... they're not so bad. By the time you get to the Voth, the Na'Kul and the Tzenkethi, there's no way to fight them unless you're spectacularly equipped... because the newer enemies are all designed to challenge people with massive dps; something newer players or more casual players simply won't be able to produce.
    HAHAAHA.... The main whine with the Voth is that their reflective shield ability is literally designed to kill keyboard macro builds. You know, the "press spacebar to activate 12 tactical buffs simultaneously" type builds. Throwing massive DPS at the reflective shield is just going to kill you and makes spike DPS builds a risky proposition since you often won't have time to react before your own DPS rips you apart.

    I don't know if you noticed, but the profusion of skills, limits of the action bars, means that if you don't use keybinds you are running at a massive disadvantage, and can't clear top end content anyway.

    Or you've magically found a way to have your mouse cursor in 3 places at once. If so, do share.

    I think we just look at some wishful thinking here that just because some parts of the community min/maxed their builds towards the most effective completion of Borg related content they could not master the rest. :)

    Well yea, different critter not just look different but also use different abilities. And yea, we also look and twisted and not linear difficulty curve fighting different types of critters. But that’s nothing new. We had that in 2012 when playing No Win Scenario already. Some enemies are just easier to fight than others. Thats life in STO.
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    felisean wrote: »
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  • seaofsorrowsseaofsorrows Member Posts: 7,271 Arc User
    edited February 5

    From my perspective, it's just a matter of looking at the earlier content, then at the later content. I can go back and do Stranded in Space, or the Klingon story arc, and simply cruise through it with no difficulty. When I get to the later stuff... forget about it, I'm going to get constantly slagged, because that content was designed to be hard enough to compensate for the power creep.

    I understand where you're coming from.

    But let me ask you this.. don't you think that giving you an extra 7.5% critical chance or a flat 30% damage boost would help you quite a bit? I am just not seeing how the Endeavor Perks are going to make things worse.

    The only argument I have seen for this is that Cryptic will now go back and make everything harder because of the perks, but nothing they have ever done before would support the argument that they are going to do this. Cryptic does not design content with the top of the spectrum in mind, they never have. The reason these old missions are so easy for you is because they were designed a long time ago and never adjusted. The current missions will be the same way.

    Yes, it's going to take a very long time before you're going to max out any of these perks, but as you go they're just going to keep making you stronger and stronger. I would think that you would support a system like this as clearly it's going to end up being nothing but a benefit to you. :smile:
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  • colonelmarikcolonelmarik Member Posts: 1,533 Arc User

    From my perspective, it's just a matter of looking at the earlier content, then at the later content. I can go back and do Stranded in Space, or the Klingon story arc, and simply cruise through it with no difficulty. When I get to the later stuff... forget about it, I'm going to get constantly slagged, because that content was designed to be hard enough to compensate for the power creep.

    I understand where you're coming from.

    But let me ask you this.. don't you think that giving you an extra 7.5% critical chance or a flat 30% damage boost would help you quite a bit? I am just not seeing how the Endeavor Perks are going to make things worse.

    The only argument I have seen for this is that Cryptic will now go back and make everything harder because of the perks, but nothing they have ever done before would support the argument that they are going to do this. Cryptic does not design content with the top of the spectrum in mind, they never have. The reason these old missions are so easy for you is because they were designed a long time ago and never adjusted. The current missions will be the same way.

    Yes, it's going to take a very long time before you're going to max out any of these perks, but as you go they're just going to keep making you stronger and stronger. I would think that you would support a system like this as clearly it's going to end up being nothing but a benefit to you. :smile:

    Oh, the perks would improve things in the short term, but then newer content would need to be made even MORE difficult... and anyone without the perks would find it that much more difficult. My point is, consider what a NEW player will have to endure.
    Once, I was simply called Mojo. Now, I'm forced into a new name, but don't be fooled, I'm the original STO Mojo!

    This game needs detailed crafting, exploration and interaction systems.
  • seaofsorrowsseaofsorrows Member Posts: 7,271 Arc User

    Oh, the perks would improve things in the short term, but then newer content would need to be made even MORE difficult... and anyone without the perks would find it that much more difficult. My point is, consider what a NEW player will have to endure.

    That is where we are seeing things differently. I haven't seen anything from Cryptic that makes me think they are going to design new content with these perks in mind.

    The really powerful perks.. things like the 7.5% Critical Chance or the Damage boost will take a very long time to get. Even if you do the Endeavors every single day, the fact that the bonuses offered are random prevents players from just dumping everything into the most powerful abilities. Cryptic knows this.. it's by design. The intent is to give players a long term goal, one that they chip away at day by day over a long period of time.

    There is absolutely nothing to imply that Cryptic will use the assumption of maxed out perks when designing new content. There is no reason to believe that a mission designed a year from now will be any tougher then a mission designed last month. Cryptic has actually done a pretty good job accounting for new players. The fact that some of the best gear in the game is obtained through mission rewards or from fleet stores shows that. Yes, there are perks that have come from limited time offerings, but they have continued to make 'good loot' available to everyone.

    I personally don't believe that philosophy is going to change anytime soon. The only content in the game that has been designed for maxed out players are Elite TFO's.
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  • coldnapalmcoldnapalm Member Posts: 7,158 Arc User
    I simply can't agree. The content in the game may be easy for you all, but it's NOT for me, and I'm pretty decently equipped. A newer player with more basic gear is going to be completely unable to compete with the likes of the Iconians or the Tzenkethi.

    I am not trying to be confrontational, but the reason you struggle is because you don't use advice you have been given. The game is only hard because you're making it hard. The increase in power from perks might help players like yourself that only want to do things a certain way no matter what. The game is certainly not going to get harder for you.

    No worries, I see no confrontation here, just discussion. I hope my comments will be taken the same way.

    But that's the thing. I have taken advice, and my build is far better than it once was... and I still have problems with Iconians, Tzenkethi and others. And that's just my main. My many alts simply don't have access to the gear my main does, and they cannot compete. My Klingon (Marik) is flying a lovely, shiny new Tier 6 QeHpu' cruiser, and he could not do the Iconian story arc. Every space battle amounted to him being destroyed over and over while the NPCs did all the actual work. Even my MAIN has difficulty with that stuff. In fact, my main was in the queue mission against the Tzenkethi once, and got separated from the rest of the group while fighting a lone cruiser. This was in my Tier 6 Pathfinder. She's also fairly decently equipped with much of the fancy gear and skills (as suggested by someone). I fought that cruiser by myself for an HOUR and could not damage it. I hit it with everything I had, and it simply shrugged it off. The mission ended with us circling around uselessly blasting each other (he couldn't kill me either, but at least I had to be on my toes).

    From my perspective, it's just a matter of looking at the earlier content, then at the later content. I can go back and do Stranded in Space, or the Klingon story arc, and simply cruise through it with no difficulty. When I get to the later stuff... forget about it, I'm going to get constantly slagged, because that content was designed to be hard enough to compensate for the power creep.

    Now, I've been around long enough to adapt. Many people have not. My concern with the new endeavours is that it will exacerbate an issue that's already a problem.

    Okay I'm sorry...but it isn't a matter of new vs old. The romulans are either 2nd or 3rd worst things to fight against if you don't like getting vaped by NPC. The 1st being tzen and the 2nd being terrans...maybe. That means of the top three NPC threat only one is in the new category as terrans and romulans have been in the game for ages. The nakhul are only an issue if you don't take out the distortions like you are suppose to and stay in the red cone of death like a moron. The iconians can wreck timing specific builds like what I run normally...or an A2B build because they have a lot of ways to mess with your cooldowns...but otherwise they are pretty standard enemies to kill. The hurq literally have nothing special or new. Yeah a couple of their ships have the directional shielding of the voth...but really that is old news in pretty much any game at this point. If you don't know how to deal with directional shields...yeah I am sorry, but you just suck at games at that point and the issue is you...not the game. One of the hardest storymode fights in this game is against the romulans. Specifically when you first have to face a DD as a fed captain. For going through first time, that mission was by far the hardest bloody one. And it's not like the fed was my first toon either. I made several rom and KDF before I made a fed toon. So...yeah...no really and issue of new vs old.
  • peterconnorfirstpeterconnorfirst Member Posts: 4,975 Arc User
    edited February 5
    My point is, consider what a NEW player will have to endure.

    New players are too often dragged into a discussion as something to be considered when things begin to get more demanding.

    Tell you what. We have this cool DPSer in town that started to play less than a year ago. A new player if you will. He logged in, played a bit, began to study how builds work at off game sites, grinded his stuff in game, learned how to optimize piloting, began to embrace team play and WOW, he put it all to good use and is now on #1 in the game wide DPS charts.

    The changes do not concern new player’s Marik, at all. They will get there, the same as the rest of us. They will just get there a bit later.

    The key element you seem to be looking for are not new player, it is dedication. Those who bring enough will be good. Those who don’t will not. Sure with the endeavor the amount of required dedication was just set a bit higher again but compared to all that we got already not really by much.

    The very only group of players who are at a disadvantage here are the seasonal ones, the ones who lack dedication as far as constant logging is concerned.

    But hey, that is not your or my problem at all. ;)
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  • casualstocasualsto Member Posts: 516 Arc User
    These endeavors are fine. We should play more, complain less.
  • jozen#9312 jozen Member Posts: 29 Arc User
    I think that the problem that he's trying to get at is from game balance. I've played a few games that added systems like this and the balance became an ever-shifting goal post to try to challenge players in the top-end which left players at the low-end struggling. Enter experiments with different difficulty tiers and performance gates.

    This system is slightly better. I haven't seen any that look broken, but look at it at the top-end in a few months when people may have the equivalent of a few extra consoles equipped. It'l be like a tier 3 or 4 vs a tier 6F. That can be rough on new players if Cryptic shift the balance towards players with 100+ perks, which kind of defeats the point. You need to do the content to get the perks.

    I'm not saying that it'll go this way, but I've seen it in other games end up being ultimately a distraction for long-term players and an impediment for new players. There appear to be a hard cap on the perks right now, so at least there's that, but even then there is no catch-up mechanic, such as increasing requirement per perk, so until I hit cap, I will always be numerically stronger than someone that started today, even with exactly the same build.
  • coldnapalmcoldnapalm Member Posts: 7,158 Arc User
    I think that the problem that he's trying to get at is from game balance. I've played a few games that added systems like this and the balance became an ever-shifting goal post to try to challenge players in the top-end which left players at the low-end struggling. Enter experiments with different difficulty tiers and performance gates.

    This system is slightly better. I haven't seen any that look broken, but look at it at the top-end in a few months when people may have the equivalent of a few extra consoles equipped. It'l be like a tier 3 or 4 vs a tier 6F. That can be rough on new players if Cryptic shift the balance towards players with 100+ perks, which kind of defeats the point. You need to do the content to get the perks.

    I'm not saying that it'll go this way, but I've seen it in other games end up being ultimately a distraction for long-term players and an impediment for new players. There appear to be a hard cap on the perks right now, so at least there's that, but even then there is no catch-up mechanic, such as increasing requirement per perk, so until I hit cap, I will always be numerically stronger than someone that started today, even with exactly the same build.

    I'm sorry...but this game's balance is already to a point where they can't make content for their entire playerbase. The average player does something like 5k DPS on ISA. The average good player does something like 100k DPS on ISA. That is a factor of 20x. The LOW end player does like 1k DPS while the super high end in this game is looking at 600k DPS...with the best being over 800k. Yeah that is a factor of 800 times. There is no way you can balance your game for something like that. And the problem isn't even the game mechanics...or at least entirely since I see people copy these 600k ships and build and manage to not even break 10k with it.
  • jeff#1284 jeff Member Posts: 24 Arc User
    So what makes the difference between 600k dps players and 5k dps players? simple, time and management.

    It is not skill, it is not elitism, it is nothing more than time spent learning how to build, manage skills, and grinding hours and hours to craft the top gear to take on end game content.

    A new player that thinks he is going to take on end game content meant for vets with years of time is just asking for disappointment at best. He has to put in serious time to gather gear and resources to run content at end game level.

    I play on console and it took me 6 months to really get a grip by time spent and I am now comfortably taking on "some" of the higher end content. I'm dishing out a lot of dps and managing what to use and when to use it.

    It all boils down to how bad you want to do well, and how much time you want to invest to catch up to players with years invested, but it can be done, i'm doing it. I'm sorry to all the tryhards and l33tists that think skill has anything to do with it, it is just a matter of time spent, nothing more.

    Anyone who thinks this game is to hard on new players should go try EVE.
  • mustrumridcully0mustrumridcully0 Member Posts: 12,296 Arc User
    jeff wrote: »
    So what makes the difference between 600k dps players and 5k dps players? simple, time and management.

    It is not skill,
    "Management" is definitely skill. Managing skills and time spend learning how to build is growing your skill.

    Skill is not something innate and static. Skill is something you build, from training, learning and experience. You start with a low skill, and eventually get better.



    Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
  • pwstolemynamepwstolemyname Member Posts: 1,407 Arc User
    • I like that endeavor unlocks are account wide.
    • I like that they give people a reason to log in.
    • I like that they are encouraging people to spend their time in game doing things they would not otherwise do.

    BUT they going to make those of us who are already multitudes ahead of the average player far far worse then we have ever been before. Teamwork? What's that? In a years time I am going to wonder why I am playing an MMO as the last bits of group content that I cant currently solo become soloable to me.

    The best fix I can think of, that allows us to keep the positives of this system is to add an 'IF' to the endeavor buffs.

    IF my stats don't already meet or exceed those provided by my endeavor points.
    THAN set those stats to the unlocked endeavor level.
    ELSE IF my stats do exceed those provided by my endeavor points
    THAN ignore the stats provided by my endeavor points.

    This way the endeavor system will raise the low end of player performance without raising the high end and reduce the power disparency instead of worsening it. I believe this would be better for everyone.
  • jeff#1284 jeff Member Posts: 24 Arc User
    jeff wrote: »
    So what makes the difference between 600k dps players and 5k dps players? simple, time and management.

    It is not skill,
    "Management" is definitely skill. Managing skills and time spend learning how to build is growing your skill.

    Skill is not something innate and static. Skill is something you build, from training, learning and experience. You start with a low skill, and eventually get better.



    No, you are increasing your understanding of how the game works. It takes no skill to program keybinds once you have played long enough to understand what everything does. It takes no skill to learn what the current meta is and use it. It takes no skill to run repetitive pve missions until you pre program yourself to to what the AI does cause it is repetition, not reacting to an enemy that thinks.

    Not arguing and I love the game, but at no time do I think I am any better than another player because I am not. I have just put in more time to get better pew pew stuff, that's it. That's it, and it is what it is.
  • cncshadecncshade Member Posts: 19 Arc User
    I simply can't agree. The content in the game may be easy for you all, but it's NOT for me, and I'm pretty decently equipped. A newer player with more basic gear is going to be completely unable to compete with the likes of the Iconians or the Tzenkethi.

    For example, I created a brand new Jem'Hadar back when it was introduced. He started out at max level with a T5U bugship and all the Jem'Hadar gear. With this character, I went into the Dominion story arc against the Hur'q. The first couple of phases were ok, but when I had to engage the larger groups in space, my ship was destroyed over and over and over and over, more or less one shotted a staggering 500 times (approximately). I'd respawn, fly over and blow up as soon as I arrived.

    Players with less formidable gear and flying Tier 5 ships are simply going to get slagged over and over with no real hope of competing. The reason is that you more or less HAVE to have the super expensive fancy gear with all the expensive, rare, fancy consoles and arrange your ship and skills for the absolute maximum efficiency... just to have a chance.

    I understand what you're saying, but I've experienced it firsthand, so I can't agree.

    Older content... the Klingons, the Romulans, the Orions... they're not so bad. By the time you get to the Voth, the Na'Kul and the Tzenkethi, there's no way to fight them unless you're spectacularly equipped... because the newer enemies are all designed to challenge people with massive dps; something newer players or more casual players simply won't be able to produce.

    First of all your experience is an antecdote which proves nothing. And it sounds to me like you want the game to bend to YOUR will just so you yourself can play with whatever gear you want and not have any problems. Well if that happened what the hell would be the point in playing? All the other gear in the game would be useless just because you don't know what you are doing? I'm sorry guy but it really looks like these kind of games are not for you. GET GOOD OR DON'T PLAY.

  • warpangelwarpangel Member Posts: 8,335 Arc User
    jeff wrote: »
    So what makes the difference between 600k dps players and 5k dps players? simple, time and management.

    It is not skill, it is not elitism, it is nothing more than time spent learning how to build, manage skills, and grinding hours and hours to craft the top gear to take on end game content.
    Time spent learning = skill.
This discussion has been closed.