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The Non-aligned people of the galaxy

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  • duncanidaho11duncanidaho11 Member Posts: 7,867 Arc User
    edited January 2019
    Sorry but this just returned a "does not compute" for me. Unless the Bosalics were building this station within a FED controlled star system the fibrous nature of FED space is the explanation for why they were able to do this. Simply draw it out of you don't see it, if I have FED space within a particular region defined by two points and a line running between those stars...where's the point of intersection if I draw in a 3rd point that doesn't fall on that line.
    Let me break it down for you
    -The original plot summary for this stated the station was being built in Federation space
    -The Federation's space isn't a giant mass, but rather, a web
    -Thus, if they were building a station in Federation space, the station(point 3) would have to be somewhere in the web line between points 1 and 2, or else it wouldn't be in Federation space as the original premise stated.

    Sorry, but this is a retcon of your original complaint. Mark stated technically in Federation territory and the conventional definition of Federation territory is a flat 2D plane projected onto a war map. If you had the web in mind then the "technically in Federation territory" and conventionally accepted view places this Boslic station somewhere outside the network but within the extent of Federation space. It's the direct implication of his post. You instead chose to interpret it as either being within a FED controlled system (which "technically FED space" doesn't support) or indeed as simply being within the blue map (with the after-the fact reframing per my explanation which is the atypical view, not often supported in diegetic conversations about FED space, to support the original complaint while simultaneously shielding against the answer to said complaint [as if the question wasn't really intended to seek that information.])

    Either way, you have that answer (it's probably off the network, or at the very least in an area not under significant FED oversight.) Quibbling about it further is not necessary.
    This ignores the fact that Voyager only had problems with this because they were in the middle of unknown space, with tons of hostile powers around them, and thus didn't have the easy access to said materials that they would otherwise have in Federation space. Voyager only had problems because it was cut off from the otherwise abundant supplies, not because the material itself is naturally difficult to get.

    This is explicitly contradicted in most of those episodes describing those resources as rare and painting the difficulty in acquiring them as being that of location as opposed to doing so without giving away their position to enemy raiders. (something that didn't consistently factor in their scientific surveys and meetings with unaffiliated powers which could not have guaranteed military protection should Voyager be discovered by the likes of the Kazon.) They were hunted in some parts of the series but not through a region of space rich in the non-replicatable resources a starship requires (creating dramatic tension for this television show) which we very evidently see through those they frequently encountered being subject to scarcity, particularly around plot critical resources (adding to dramatic tension.) Certainly, with a Starfleet presence they wouldn't have had to worry so much about those limitations but this doesn't support the view that a species like the Boslic wouldn't be materially limited by FED expansion around them. The direct logical implication of what we see in Voyager re. starship critical resources and the fact that the FED is very good at securing them would suggest quite the opposite (that the FED acquisition of critical non-replicatable resources would constrain the use of those resources for those species engulfed by FED expansion.

    This is a very direct, logical extrapolation of known factors, basic to the Star Trek universe, which answers your original question RE. Boslic motivation.) Note that to avoid acknowlodging it, you are actively reinterpreting a major distinguishing element of Voyager to maintain an implicit criticism RE a Foundry mission you haven't played or have no vested interested in beyond maintaining a "oh, WHAT?!" reaction made off hand and wide of the topic of this thread. I suggest refocusing on what you hope to achieve with this discussion.
    And what follows here can just be counted as thoughts on these events. I do like your note of the paradox, lost sight of that one myself (I haven't replayed the AOY missions much) but I don't think it supports a grand unified characterization of the Tholians around the temporal cold war. Probably best for a separate thread, spoiler tagged for that reason.
    To sum all of this up
    -The Tholians are interested in the Iconian technology on Nukara and New Romulus not only because Iconian gateway tech can enter their space, but also because the Iconian War is what causes the Temporal Cold War.

    Iconian tech only relates to the TCW in historical terms, ie. contributing to the Iconian's military advantage over the Alliance. It's not the tech which is principally responsible for the cold war. That's the Krenim's and the Tholians made no effort to understand that technology or the species behind it even though it's what's most directly responsible for the impending temporal blow up.

    Interest in Iconian tech can be explained much more directly: territoriality. It's potentially capable of intersecting with the Tholian's physical domain, same as the Mirror Universe.
    -The Tholian's presence in the Azure Nebula is due to it leading to their space, and because it is the main path they use to get from their space to Nukara and New Romulus.
    -Their attack on The Vault was a distraction to keep Alliance forces away from Nukara and New Romulus.

    Which presupposes that attacks on the Vault and don't fall within an evident territorial impulse (the Vault could just as well be a base to support incursion into the Azure Nebula from the Tholian POV, as opposed to supporting New Romulus) and instead are part of an assumed plan (with territoriality simply being a incidental point of convergence.) It's a much less parsimonious explanation to one which is very descriptive and fairly consistent. Ie. the Tholians will react to potential intersection vectors.
    -The Tholian's actions in "Tangled Webs", "Sunrise", "Stormbound", and "Vorgon Conclusions", are all part of a large bootstrap paradox where the Tholians steal Kal Dano's Tox Uthat so they can get revenge against the Na'Kuhl. This causes the Na'Kuhl to go back in time and attack the Tholians in "Tangled Webs" ensuring the paradox is closed and stable, and thus, non threatening to the timeline.

    Or that the paradox was incidentally created by the initial attack of the Na'Kuhl on the Tholians which was followed with an attempt at genocide in kind. You're assuming Tholian intent (carefully calculated...in spite of what impulse ultimate drove the Tholian's final act in Tangled Webs) when the situation can also be framed as dramatic irony for the Na'Kuhl in trying to avenge historical injustice through temporal incursion (a la Sela).
    -The Tholian's attempts to seize your and your ship in "Vorgon Conclusions", as well as their actions in “Survivor”, are their attempts to stop time travelers, and get rid of timeline disrupting anomalies, in order to maintain the timeline.
    -This sort of attitude is expressed by the Tholian Ambassador during "Time and Tide", confirming the above.

    Except that your actions in Survivor also rectify the temporal anomaly. Ditto Temporal Ambassador and Vorgon Conclusions. If they simply were not involed as antagonists then the player would have been able to resolve the situation without the deaths of many Tholians (not what I said was the minimum for sentient motivations....) If you presume that the Tholian are capable of accurately observing the timeline in planning around historical events sufficiently to create a precisely calibrated temporal loop around incidental conflict...then they should have been able to easily recognize the convergence of interests and what the player would in fact do.

    And yet they didn't suggesting that their interest in preserving the timeline operates according to different terms than the Alliance/Union/Daniels. Ie. that they can have interests beyond preservation and were active participants in the TCW (counterpointed by the ambassador because Tholians, who may represent a Tholian opinion not shared by the parts of the assembly responsible for the other incursions at other points in whatever time they operate by.)
    As for Temporal Ambassador specifically. It was suggested in some lore blog all the way back when Nukara first came out that the Tholians are not only creatures of THIS universe, but that they use their ability to travel outside of normal space-time to meet up with, and join up with, the Tholian Assemblies of other timelines/universes. Making every Tholian Assembly across all of the multiverse the same giant Tholian Assembly. Their actions in Temporal Ambassador are not necessarily an aberration to their normal actions, as every Tholian Assembly in every universe is likely keep each universe on the same timeline track they originally were on to begin with, even if that universe had a timeline different from this one.

    Ergo, one shouldn't ascribe a single unifying set of motivations to a faction which could have innumerable facets and contrasting motivations. We have no way of knowing whether any given Tholian is acting at the behest of the assembly represented by a Tholian encountered elsewhere, as it may be a part of another element of the vast multi-dimensional assembly from a concurrent or disconnected point in time. Because we know so little about their society and its domain, anything more is an assumption.

    Also as for Temporal Ambassador: that timeline was created by the disappearance of the Ent-C which the Tholians held onto (perpetuating the aberration.) The closed loop was created by circumventing them in this case. It's worth pointing out though that taking these losses to play the part of antagonist to guide players through events in the most stable way possible is a possible re-interpretation of Tholians if you ascribe to them motivations not unlike the Tleilaxu in Dune. Ie. willing to play a part for some time, willing to sacrifice whatever drones are necessary, in order to manipulate the perceptions and actions of those around them for a position that ultimately benefits them. But, that's yet to be supported directly in STO. It would be an interesting angle but IMO it might go too far in explaining the Tholians and create a very different kind of character (purposefully at odds with dialog and events.)
    The Tholian's protection of the Crystaline Entity is because they see it as a being like them, and worship it like some sort of god-like being.

    A very dogmatic mindset not shown elsewhere in Tholian behavior. Note that the immediate parallel of the Tholians worshipping a large construct (whose primary activity is simple consumption) because of its size an analogous composition is us worshipping a Blue Whale for size and analogous composition. There's more to appreciation than that. That said, it's an interesting facet but another example of inexplicable behavior floating over undefined character, reflexed as one finds it interesting to do so (often in contradiction and without sufficient context to appreciate it fully.) We don't know for example whether the Tholians ascribe to this belief en masse or what we fight in CCA is the equivalent of an extremist sect within Tholians.
    Post edited by duncanidaho11 on
    Bipedal mammal and senior Foundry author.
    Notable missions: Apex [AEI], Gemini [SSF], Trident [AEI], Evolution's Smile [SSF], Transcendence
    Looking for something new to play? I've started building Foundry missions again in visual novel form!
  • brian334brian334 Member Posts: 2,214 Arc User
    It always comes back to cost. Why mine magnesite? Because mining, refining, and transporting it is cheaper than replicating it. Fuel, time of use of power station systems, the use of the replicator itself, all have associated costs. Replicators aren't free.

    Post scarcity blah money blah utopian society blahblahblah.

    Money is an accounting system. Even absent money there will be accounting systems. On galactic scales, saving 1 gram per day of fuel for each replicator adds up fast. That fuel has to be manufactured, and transported, and burned to create the power the replicators use. So when the raw materials can be had for less fuel, that's the way to go.

    Non-aligned peoples, presumably with smaller trade networks, would use replicators even less than Fed aligned peoples do because for them those dilithium crystals and antimatter pods are harder to come by. Every gram of fuel they can save by growing wheat rather than replicating bread either lessens the burden of their supply chain or increases the productivity of their replicators by not consuming the amount of time they would ordinarily be used to create bread leaving more time for industrial or commercial applications.

    It is practical for starbases and starships to use replicators for their daily meals, but for worlds? Wheat and chickens are cheap and require little more than sunlight and careful husbandry to prosper.

    So, would non-aligned aliens open their space to Federation rivals to build a starport or base? Absolutely, if they are trading for something they need.
  • duncanidaho11duncanidaho11 Member Posts: 7,867 Arc User
    edited January 2019
    .
    Again, they are rare within the context of the show Voyager, where they are in the middle of unknown space, have no knowledge of were these resources are, and even if they did, they are most likely in the territory of another sovereign power of which they have no relations with, and thus, don't have access to. YOU are actively reinterpreting the plot of Voyager by purposefully ignoring the context of the show, and why the statements are what they are.

    Except that Voyager does collect resources detected through long range scans, enter unknown regions when in material need (serving as the dramatic impetus for several episodes as they unknowingly cross territorial bounds and/or discover complicating details regarding target resources), and initiate contact with sovereign powers in the search of specific rare materials (without setting timetables relative to pursuers, IIRC.) The way these aliens treat those materials (see. they won't strike easy bargain in Fair Trade) does not support the view that these are especially plentiful within these regions. Quite the opposite, in fact (an angle used by writers to increase dramatic tension.) This is the basis of several episodes and handled through explicit dialog. However much you personally may want to avoid acknowledging it, there is such a thing as resource scarcity in the star trek universe (and across the IP). Neither replicators or interstellar mining are wholly capable of addressing it in full. It's thus a valid angle to approach interspecies conflicts in STO (either in the main arc or in Foundry missions.)
    I only attempted to point out obvious narrative problems within the scenario of a foundry mission that was offered up as an example as to how to get around a complaint I made about the OP's desire for in-game content. What I don't understand is why you are so bent on defending these problems as if they aren't problems and further derailing what was an otherwise on topic conversation in the process.

    You pointed out those assumed narrative problems and resisted corresponding explanations irrespective of their canonical basis or direct logical implications, calling for further reclarification of basic IP elements to the point where a detailed discussion wasn't possible. Now you're simply backing up on the basis of having a discussion and I don't think that's productive for a reasonable debate. Hence me saying to you: I disagree your arguments and I think the OP is quite justified in their request based on what we can demonstrate from the IP and STO universe (and furthermore that you had insufficient basis to criticize Mark's Foundry plot line and to maintain those complaints as if someone couldn't disagree. See. "as if they aren't problems," these are your words.) The STO developers have on several occasions elevated a minor alien of the week to major dramatic status (see. Vaadwuar, Elachi, Iconians, Hur'Q, Tzenkethi, Voth, Solanae, Fek'Ihri), added factional relationships which were not part of existing canon, made original contributions to the IP (see. Lukari, Kentari, Deferi, Draconians, Ferasans), and demonstrated repeatedly that they can do more than simply play to the simplest possible interpretation of fan expectations.

    It's arguably what they're best at relative to other Star Trek developers. They've done a lot to make 2409/2410 a distinct era through original input, even while it provides players with the opportunity to play around with the most iconic bits of the fractions. Hence why it's not a point to dismiss in an open forum (as among other things players can play off these original elements for their crews and Foundry missions. Cryptic's set a good example for us in our own pursuits. It helps to acknowledge it widely and it's worth standing up for.)
    Post edited by duncanidaho11 on
    Bipedal mammal and senior Foundry author.
    Notable missions: Apex [AEI], Gemini [SSF], Trident [AEI], Evolution's Smile [SSF], Transcendence
    Looking for something new to play? I've started building Foundry missions again in visual novel form!
  • markhawkmanmarkhawkman Member Posts: 35,231 Arc User
    Sorry but this just returned a "does not compute" for me. Unless the Bosalics were building this station within a FED controlled star system the fibrous nature of FED space is the explanation for why they were able to do this. Simply draw it out of you don't see it, if I have FED space within a particular region defined by two points and a line running between those stars...where's the point of intersection if I draw in a 3rd point that doesn't fall on that line.
    Let me break it down for you
    -The original plot summary for this stated the station was being built in Federation space
    -The Federation's space isn't a giant mass, but rather, a web
    -Thus, if they were building a station in Federation space, the station(point 3) would have to be somewhere in the web line between points 1 and 2, or else it wouldn't be in Federation space as the original premise stated.
    Sorry, but this is a retcon of your original complaint. Mark stated technically in Federation territory and the conventional definition of Federation territory is a flat 2D plane projected onto a war map. If you had the web in mind then the "technically in Federation territory" and conventionally accepted view places this Boslic station somewhere outside the network but within the extent of Federation space. It's the direct implication of his post. You instead chose to interpret it as either being within a FED controlled system (which "technically FED space" doesn't support) or indeed as simply being within the blue map (with the after-the fact reframing per my explanation which is the atypical view, not often supported in diegetic conversations about FED space, to support the original complaint while simultaneously shielding against the answer to said complaint [as if the question wasn't really intended to seek that information.])

    Either way, you have that answer (it's probably off the network, or at the very least in an area not under significant FED oversight.) Quibbling about it further is not necessary.
    My intention was actually that Beta-Rana was a system claimed by the feds, but it was Fed territory on paper only. The Feds didn't actually use it for anything at all because it had no natural resources worth exploiting. And it's surrounded by a nebula that obscures things on long range sensors, but the nebula exists because the star is unstable and shedding mass into space. So, it's also somewhat dangerous. Part of the plot is that Admiral Quinn wants you to go look at it because they detected abnormal stellar instability and they don't know WHY because there is nothing to record it close up.
    This ignores the fact that Voyager only had problems with this because they were in the middle of unknown space, with tons of hostile powers around them, and thus didn't have the easy access to said materials that they would otherwise have in Federation space. Voyager only had problems because it was cut off from the otherwise abundant supplies, not because the material itself is naturally difficult to get.
    This is explicitly contradicted in most of those episodes describing those resources as rare and painting the difficulty in acquiring them as being that of location as opposed to doing so without giving away their position to enemy raiders.
    Yeah anything replicated requires energy and the larger the object the more energy is needed.
    but this doesn't support the view that a species like the Boslic wouldn't be materially limited by FED expansion around them. The direct logical implication of what we see in Voyager re. starship critical resources and the fact that the FED is very good at securing them would suggest quite the opposite (that the FED acquisition of critical non-replicatable resources would constrain the use of those resources for those species engulfed by FED expansion.
    I actually didn't write the Boslic government into the mission at all. The Boslics in the mission are not affiliated with the Boslic government and instead mercs.
    This is a very direct, logical extrapolation of known factors, basic to the Star Trek universe, which answers your original question RE. Boslic motivation.)
    Hehe, speaking of extrapolations, AFAIK we've never seen in the TV shows any Boslic who were government officials, politicians, or agents thereof. Instead they've all been either traders or mercs. So we don't actually know what their government IS.
    -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
    My character Tsin'xing
    Costume_marhawkman_Tsin%27xing_CC_Comic_Page_Blue_488916968.jpg
  • warmaker001bwarmaker001b Member Posts: 9,205 Arc User
    Another idea...the player can take part as a smuggler/pirate or someone who for the first part of the story arc, is in opposition to the alliance. Experience what it’s like to work for the Orion Syndicate, but not be an official member of the syndicate. A third party. Smuggle illicit cargo, slave trade, or do work for Section 31 and the Tal Shiar. The story can combine later with the Alliance via some undercover missions.

    That won't happen because what you're asking for is a separate storyline. Kind of what like the KDF, Rom Republic used to have in this game until the Alliance missions came about and now everyone does the same stuff.

    What you're asking for is more dedicated work than any of the current faction (KDF) or subfactions (Roms, Jem'Hadar, TOS Feds, Disco Feds).
    There are no more KDF unique missions.
    There are no more Romulan Republic missions.
    They haven't had any since LOR came out years and years ago.

    The more telling part are the TOS / AOY Feds, Disco Feds, and Jem'Hadar. These are the more recent sub-factions. They get a few unique missions and that was it. Nothing more. They too fold into the Alliance storyline.

    A criminal faction would demand more work because their objectives, story will be counter to the Alliance. I don't see that happening. Not even the KDF gets faction unique stories anymore.
    XzRTofz.gif
  • warpangelwarpangel Member Posts: 9,427 Arc User
    warpangel wrote: »
    If it gives unique rewards, players will play it.
    The old, pre-reputation, Borg queues disagree.
    You couldn't be any more wrong.
  • marty123#3757 marty123 Member Posts: 670 Arc User
    I suppose a neutral faction like the Ferengi Alliance could work.
  • warpangelwarpangel Member Posts: 9,427 Arc User
    I suppose a neutral faction like the Ferengi Alliance could work.
    In so far as it would be just a tutorial and then join normal mission flow like the other "factions," pretty much anything could work.

    Whether it could be profitable to implement is another thing entirely.
  • brian334brian334 Member Posts: 2,214 Arc User
    edited January 2019
    As an example of a non-aligned people, the First Federation has already been mentioned, and they might make excellent fodder for a story. As an example, your character might be tasked with seeking permission to test a Fesarius Class vessel for possible use against Hur'q or Fek'lr.

    The mission would involve:

    Exploration- enter the First Federation and navigate to a naval base.
    Diplomacy - discuss the problem and convince the First Fed rep that there is need.
    Combat - use the Fesarius in combat, (it's a carrier with pod-pets,) to test it against simulated swarms.
    Trade - negotiate a deal with the First Fed for the technology to build your own Fesarius
    Deliver - a mini-version of a T2 Fesarius which can unlock a T6 version in the C-store once unlocked via the mission.

    This wouldn't require the First Federation to be an adversary, and it would offer an opportunity for the players to explore a little piece of FF territory and the culture of the First Federation.

    The point is that a race can be an adversary without being hostile. Trade and technology exchanges can become quite heated without breaking out into war.

    Other options include aiding a non-aligned species against an adversary, seeking the wisdom of an elder species, or protecting a nascent warp species from the hostile galaxy. There's lots you can do with non-aligned people, both including and excluding the hostile alien of the week that you have to shoot for loot.
  • duncanidaho11duncanidaho11 Member Posts: 7,867 Arc User
    edited January 2019
    I actually didn't write the Boslic government into the mission at all. The Boslics in the mission are not affiliated with the Boslic government and instead mercs.

    I was actually thinking more about the Boslics at the species level though this could just as well be said for any background species we see in FED extent but isn't a protectorate or member. They'll collectively be competing with the FED for space and resources but with less to work with on every level. So whether it be individual Boslic or the Boslic government one could write them as having a cultural background (stemming from innocuous FED expansion) to take opportunities like those you had the Tholians offering without much review (they need the resources or the platform and it working against FED interests is no big loss, if they considered the whys.)

    Basically what you had I think is a pretty good angle and I'd like to see STO take these kinds of problems (ie. what happens as a secondary consequence of the FED simply existing) and run with them a little (probably best in the area of optional background dialog, setting, and individual character motivation.)
    Bipedal mammal and senior Foundry author.
    Notable missions: Apex [AEI], Gemini [SSF], Trident [AEI], Evolution's Smile [SSF], Transcendence
    Looking for something new to play? I've started building Foundry missions again in visual novel form!
  • duncanidaho11duncanidaho11 Member Posts: 7,867 Arc User
    edited January 2019
    warpangel wrote: »
    I suppose a neutral faction like the Ferengi Alliance could work.
    In so far as it would be just a tutorial and then join normal mission flow like the other "factions," pretty much anything could work.

    Whether it could be profitable to implement is another thing entirely.

    Yeah and its this reason which is most constraining to new factions. I think Borg cooperative is the most realistic possibility that checks the boxes of a relatively small, unaligned power which can fold into the modern STO story line. Anything more niche effectively has to argue "so why is this better than borg co-op, the most frequently requested remaining faction?" and that's an uphill battle.

    That said though there's more possibility when it comes to writing. Speaking from experience in doing a lot of this stuff in the Foundry, you can do a lot of world building through choosing an atypical location and populating it with characters and optional dialog that flesh out that setting (while still serving to move the mission forward). Ex. like New Kentar. Then on the backend (if you really wanted to give the players more to take home with them, so to speak) Cryptic could include customization options and/or boff(s) themed to this mission/setting and let them headcanon from there.

    Ie. just try to make a point of including mission rewards that players can use to build characters when an episode has made a particularly good effort and building character and corresponding setting (like Dust to Dust during its original run and unlike the Search.) That can help make the most of what's there.
    Bipedal mammal and senior Foundry author.
    Notable missions: Apex [AEI], Gemini [SSF], Trident [AEI], Evolution's Smile [SSF], Transcendence
    Looking for something new to play? I've started building Foundry missions again in visual novel form!
  • markhawkmanmarkhawkman Member Posts: 35,231 Arc User
    I actually didn't write the Boslic government into the mission at all. The Boslics in the mission are not affiliated with the Boslic government and instead mercs.
    I was actually thinking more about the Boslics at the species level though this could just as well be said for any background species we see in FED extent but isn't a protectorate or member. They'll collectively be competing with the FED for space and resources but with less to work with on every level. So whether it be individual Boslic or the Boslic government one could write them as having a cultural background (stemming from innocuous FED expansion) to take opportunities like those you had the Tholians offering without much review (they need the resources or the platform and it working against FED interests is no big loss, if they considered the whys.)

    Basically what you had I think is a pretty good angle and I'd like to see STO take these kinds of problems (ie. what happens as a secondary consequence of the FED simply existing) and run with them a little (probably best in the area of optional background dialog, setting, and individual character motivation.)
    Hehe, there's a lot of nuance you can write into stories like this. The tone of the piece is very different when it's surreptitious and not like an invasion sort of thing.
    -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
    My character Tsin'xing
    Costume_marhawkman_Tsin%27xing_CC_Comic_Page_Blue_488916968.jpg
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