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KDF disinvestment tangent

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  • sirsitsalotsirsitsalot Member Posts: 1,553 Arc User
    Two MMOs I played where player choice and actions made a difference were Ultima Online before they dumbed it down, and Star Wars Galaxies before they turned it into a clone of World of Warcraft, and caused a mass-exodus of players. These games had real communities that could actually leave their mark on the game. We're talking about real involvement, not just pre-scripted stories. Yes, those games had issues as well, but to this date they are the only MMOs I have played that made me really feel connected with the gameworld and the other players I shared it with.

    But we already know this will never be an open world sandbox. But they cannot even pretend to make our choices matter.

    And that is sad
    I have no snarky remarks to make, at this time...
  • somtaawkharsomtaawkhar Member Posts: 5,008 Arc User
    edited December 2018
    Two MMOs I played where player choice and actions made a difference were Ultima Online before they dumbed it down, and Star Wars Galaxies before they turned it into a clone of World of Warcraft, and caused a mass-exodus of players. These games had real communities that could actually leave their mark on the game. We're talking about real involvement, not just pre-scripted stories. Yes, those games had issues as well, but to this date they are the only MMOs I have played that made me really feel connected with the gameworld and the other players I shared it with.

    But we already know this will never be an open world sandbox. But they cannot even pretend to make our choices matter.

    And that is sad
    So your complaints about quest design in STO are based on features from two MMO that have nothing to do with actual questing, and instead community driven actions?
    azrael605 wrote: »
    Quite frankly I've never played any MMO where player choices had any more effect than they do here in STO, non MMOs sure but not MMOs. As for the tabletop RPGs, I've been a player and GM in D&D, Rifts, DC Heroes, Traveller, GURPS, and many others for just as long as you claim and the GM who lets his players take over the narrative is not a good GM. I've played in such games, and even been the player taking over the game (as my Drow Vampire derailed 3 whole sessions buying, remodelling, and fortifying the tavern in town to be a home base and infiltrating the local thieves guild, the campaign was on the far side of the continent). Sure I had fun, no one else did, players or GM.
    This. Actual QUESTING in MMOs always has the player reach the same end via the same events with, at most, a few NPC allies being different based on who you picked in an earlier mission.
  • ichaerus1ichaerus1 Member Posts: 673 Arc User
    I have played MMOs in which player choices and actions meant something, .
    Such as? I'm the last 15 years of MMOs I've played the only game that came even close to this was Elder Scrolls Online, and even that was just throwaway lines of "I remember you helping us before!" if you did the quest in the previous zones or not.

    City of Heroes/City of Villains would say hi to you from the grave. The Going Rogue expansion for sure, where your choices would over time affect your alignment, or which faction you were part of, whether rogue, vigilante, hero, villain, praetorian, or rebel, for example. And your choices affected which missions and contacts opened up to you.

    In the first 6 months, I know that SWTOR for sure(I haven't played it since, so I don't know what has happened since) had choices that mattered, because it would affect you and your companions, more than cosmetically as well.

    Roleplaying has EVERYTHING to do with choices you as a character makes, unless you have a terrible DM/GM who leads you by the nose on a railroad. Because while the DM/GM/Storyteller lays out the world, what you do in it has consequences and ripples throughout the story, whether you're wearing the white hat, or the black hat. A good DM/GM doesn't hand you a premade character with a locked script and world set in place. He/she hands you a blank character sheet, and a world that you can shape, and lets your story unfurl(until you get eaten by a mimic, or you get turned into a bubbling puddle of good from an acid trap detonated by a kobold for example). The freedom to make your choices, but also carries the responsibility from making those choices, for good or ill.
  • somtaawkharsomtaawkhar Member Posts: 5,008 Arc User
    edited December 2018
    ichaerus1 wrote: »
    A good DM/GM doesn't hand you a premade character with a locked script and world set in place..
    This is only valid for tabletop games, and not CRPGs.

    Games like Deus Ex, Baldur's Gate, Witcher, pretty much every major CRPG ever made, gives you a preset background, and an already constructed world, and lets you make choices within a fairly small window of the game world so that the developers can make the game able to actually react to the choices you make in a substantive manner, rather then letting you just go all out, and have little to show for it, because no dev can program everything.

    Hell, most CRPGs don't even let you attack, let alone kill, anyone you want, due to the sheer number of variables and necessarily quest alterations making that impossible for developers to allow without just doing what Morrowind did and slapping a "whoops you broke the game, reload or w/e!" message.
    ichaerus1 wrote: »
    City of Heroes/City of Villains would say hi to you from the grave. The Going Rogue expansion for sure, where your choices would over time affect your alignment, or which faction you were part of, whether rogue, vigilante, hero, villain, praetorian, or rebel, for example. And your choices affected which missions and contacts opened up to you.
    That's not really a major choice though, that's just a more dynamic version of faction choosing, and doesn't actually change how the game ends, just what set of random missions you play to get there.

    That's an entirely different thing then say, using a supermassive genesis bomb to kill the Iconians and then having the next arc be the alliance hunting you for war crimes instead of the game plot continuing as it has.
  • markhawkmanmarkhawkman Member Posts: 33,150 Arc User
    ichaerus1 wrote: »
    I have played MMOs in which player choices and actions meant something, .
    Such as? I'm the last 15 years of MMOs I've played the only game that came even close to this was Elder Scrolls Online, and even that was just throwaway lines of "I remember you helping us before!" if you did the quest in the previous zones or not.
    City of Heroes/City of Villains would say hi to you from the grave. The Going Rogue expansion for sure, where your choices would over time affect your alignment, or which faction you were part of, whether rogue, vigilante, hero, villain, praetorian, or rebel, for example. And your choices affected which missions and contacts opened up to you.

    In the first 6 months, I know that SWTOR for sure(I haven't played it since, so I don't know what has happened since) had choices that mattered, because it would affect you and your companions, more than cosmetically as well.

    Roleplaying has EVERYTHING to do with choices you as a character makes, unless you have a terrible DM/GM who leads you by the nose on a railroad. Because while the DM/GM/Storyteller lays out the world, what you do in it has consequences and ripples throughout the story, whether you're wearing the white hat, or the black hat. A good DM/GM doesn't hand you a premade character with a locked script and world set in place. He/she hands you a blank character sheet, and a world that you can shape, and lets your story unfurl(until you get eaten by a mimic, or you get turned into a bubbling puddle of good from an acid trap detonated by a kobold for example). The freedom to make your choices, but also carries the responsibility from making those choices, for good or ill.
    One game where player choice absolutely mattered was Fallout 4. Obviously that's single player, but in it player choices could result in the destruction of cities. How would you handle that in an MMO? How do you program the game to handle it when you have a group of players go to a location but for one player they see it as a burned ruin, and the other sees it as a social hub where they buy and sell things?
    warpangel wrote: »
    brian334 wrote: »
    The main issue is that outside of one or two instances in the starter quests, you never get a chance to be a Klingon.

    Like them or not, agree with them or not, there is a canon portrayal of Klingons, and outside of the Bat'leth tournament you never get to act that way.

    Example: In the first incarnation of Hakeev's death scene I was given the choice to kill him or not to kill him. My Fed character let him live, my Klingon killed him. That choice was taken away because it was considered inappropriate. But it was a very Klingon thing to do, and there was absolutely no reason for the choice to be removed other than to conform to some Federation ideal about killing, after we've killed dozens of others to get to that point. (And yeah, you can stun with phasers, which we certainly do with our orbital bombardment optionals.)
    It's not about any Federation ideals, but of vengeance. The romulan Player Character has a massive personal score to settle with Hakeev, so they kill him themselves (regardless of faction alignment). Whereas the other origins are not as involved so they leave him to Obisek, who is.
    Yeah Hakeev's story ends with him dying for his many, many crimes. If you don't know HOW many, go play the Romulan Republic story! Seriously... Yeesh...

    Hakeev's crimes were less numerous in the original Romulan mystery arc. Some of that stuff wasn't even clear if Hakeev even knew about it. Heck the revelation of what caused Hobus came in the Romulan Republic story! So in the pre-LoR version there was less reason for the player or Obisek to want Hakeev dead.
    -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
    My character Tsin'xing
    Costume_marhawkman_Tsin%27xing_CC_Comic_Page_Blue_488916968.jpg
  • patrickngopatrickngo Member Posts: 9,518 Arc User
    ichaerus1 wrote: »
    I have played MMOs in which player choices and actions meant something, .
    Such as? I'm the last 15 years of MMOs I've played the only game that came even close to this was Elder Scrolls Online, and even that was just throwaway lines of "I remember you helping us before!" if you did the quest in the previous zones or not.
    City of Heroes/City of Villains would say hi to you from the grave. The Going Rogue expansion for sure, where your choices would over time affect your alignment, or which faction you were part of, whether rogue, vigilante, hero, villain, praetorian, or rebel, for example. And your choices affected which missions and contacts opened up to you.

    In the first 6 months, I know that SWTOR for sure(I haven't played it since, so I don't know what has happened since) had choices that mattered, because it would affect you and your companions, more than cosmetically as well.

    Roleplaying has EVERYTHING to do with choices you as a character makes, unless you have a terrible DM/GM who leads you by the nose on a railroad. Because while the DM/GM/Storyteller lays out the world, what you do in it has consequences and ripples throughout the story, whether you're wearing the white hat, or the black hat. A good DM/GM doesn't hand you a premade character with a locked script and world set in place. He/she hands you a blank character sheet, and a world that you can shape, and lets your story unfurl(until you get eaten by a mimic, or you get turned into a bubbling puddle of good from an acid trap detonated by a kobold for example). The freedom to make your choices, but also carries the responsibility from making those choices, for good or ill.
    One game where player choice absolutely mattered was Fallout 4. Obviously that's single player, but in it player choices could result in the destruction of cities. How would you handle that in an MMO? How do you program the game to handle it when you have a group of players go to a location but for one player they see it as a burned ruin, and the other sees it as a social hub where they buy and sell things?
    warpangel wrote: »
    brian334 wrote: »
    The main issue is that outside of one or two instances in the starter quests, you never get a chance to be a Klingon.

    Like them or not, agree with them or not, there is a canon portrayal of Klingons, and outside of the Bat'leth tournament you never get to act that way.

    Example: In the first incarnation of Hakeev's death scene I was given the choice to kill him or not to kill him. My Fed character let him live, my Klingon killed him. That choice was taken away because it was considered inappropriate. But it was a very Klingon thing to do, and there was absolutely no reason for the choice to be removed other than to conform to some Federation ideal about killing, after we've killed dozens of others to get to that point. (And yeah, you can stun with phasers, which we certainly do with our orbital bombardment optionals.)
    It's not about any Federation ideals, but of vengeance. The romulan Player Character has a massive personal score to settle with Hakeev, so they kill him themselves (regardless of faction alignment). Whereas the other origins are not as involved so they leave him to Obisek, who is.
    Yeah Hakeev's story ends with him dying for his many, many crimes. If you don't know HOW many, go play the Romulan Republic story! Seriously... Yeesh...

    Hakeev's crimes were less numerous in the original Romulan mystery arc. Some of that stuff wasn't even clear if Hakeev even knew about it. Heck the revelation of what caused Hobus came in the Romulan Republic story! So in the pre-LoR version there was less reason for the player or Obisek to want Hakeev dead.

    that ambiguity also made him a better character. Pre-LOR Hakeev was a scumbag, sure, but he was a scumbag who was trying to hold his nation together. with Legacy of Romulus, he turns into a traitor against that nation, responsible in large part for that nation's destruction-and going from "Ruthless Lawful evil" to "Insane chaotic evil".

    Like...every major villain Cryptic's done since.

    KDF: Not supported by Cryptic, because according to them, we're not 'Real' Star Trek fans.

    Well, TRIBBLE them, I'll play KDF anyway.

    "We are the Federation. Resistance is futile, we will add your biological and technological distinctiveness to our own."-Cryptic Studios

    Advocacy
    simple logic process:

    The body is filled with so much blood...It's always more than you think!! -Dr. Dinosaur

  • thevampinatorthevampinator Member Posts: 425 Arc User
    patrickngo wrote: »
    ichaerus1 wrote: »
    I have played MMOs in which player choices and actions meant something, .
    Such as? I'm the last 15 years of MMOs I've played the only game that came even close to this was Elder Scrolls Online, and even that was just throwaway lines of "I remember you helping us before!" if you did the quest in the previous zones or not.
    City of Heroes/City of Villains would say hi to you from the grave. The Going Rogue expansion for sure, where your choices would over time affect your alignment, or which faction you were part of, whether rogue, vigilante, hero, villain, praetorian, or rebel, for example. And your choices affected which missions and contacts opened up to you.

    In the first 6 months, I know that SWTOR for sure(I haven't played it since, so I don't know what has happened since) had choices that mattered, because it would affect you and your companions, more than cosmetically as well.

    Roleplaying has EVERYTHING to do with choices you as a character makes, unless you have a terrible DM/GM who leads you by the nose on a railroad. Because while the DM/GM/Storyteller lays out the world, what you do in it has consequences and ripples throughout the story, whether you're wearing the white hat, or the black hat. A good DM/GM doesn't hand you a premade character with a locked script and world set in place. He/she hands you a blank character sheet, and a world that you can shape, and lets your story unfurl(until you get eaten by a mimic, or you get turned into a bubbling puddle of good from an acid trap detonated by a kobold for example). The freedom to make your choices, but also carries the responsibility from making those choices, for good or ill.
    One game where player choice absolutely mattered was Fallout 4. Obviously that's single player, but in it player choices could result in the destruction of cities. How would you handle that in an MMO? How do you program the game to handle it when you have a group of players go to a location but for one player they see it as a burned ruin, and the other sees it as a social hub where they buy and sell things?
    warpangel wrote: »
    brian334 wrote: »
    The main issue is that outside of one or two instances in the starter quests, you never get a chance to be a Klingon.

    Like them or not, agree with them or not, there is a canon portrayal of Klingons, and outside of the Bat'leth tournament you never get to act that way.

    Example: In the first incarnation of Hakeev's death scene I was given the choice to kill him or not to kill him. My Fed character let him live, my Klingon killed him. That choice was taken away because it was considered inappropriate. But it was a very Klingon thing to do, and there was absolutely no reason for the choice to be removed other than to conform to some Federation ideal about killing, after we've killed dozens of others to get to that point. (And yeah, you can stun with phasers, which we certainly do with our orbital bombardment optionals.)
    It's not about any Federation ideals, but of vengeance. The romulan Player Character has a massive personal score to settle with Hakeev, so they kill him themselves (regardless of faction alignment). Whereas the other origins are not as involved so they leave him to Obisek, who is.
    Yeah Hakeev's story ends with him dying for his many, many crimes. If you don't know HOW many, go play the Romulan Republic story! Seriously... Yeesh...

    Hakeev's crimes were less numerous in the original Romulan mystery arc. Some of that stuff wasn't even clear if Hakeev even knew about it. Heck the revelation of what caused Hobus came in the Romulan Republic story! So in the pre-LoR version there was less reason for the player or Obisek to want Hakeev dead.

    that ambiguity also made him a better character. Pre-LOR Hakeev was a scumbag, sure, but he was a scumbag who was trying to hold his nation together. with Legacy of Romulus, he turns into a traitor against that nation, responsible in large part for that nation's destruction-and going from "Ruthless Lawful evil" to "Insane chaotic evil".

    Like...every major villain Cryptic's done since.

    I would like a mission involving Mirror Havkev I know they have a doff version of him. I'm sure Mirror Hakeev is Lawful Good. Since morality seems to mirror itself between the universes. Would be awesome and they should do it for a mirror storyline.
  • somtaawkharsomtaawkhar Member Posts: 5,008 Arc User
    edited December 2018
    patrickngo wrote: »
    that ambiguity also made him a better character. Pre-LOR Hakeev was a scumbag, sure, but he was a scumbag who was trying to hold his nation together. with Legacy of Romulus, he turns into a traitor against that nation, responsible in large part for that nation's destruction-and going from "Ruthless Lawful evil" to "Insane chaotic evil".

    Like...every major villain Cryptic's done since.
    Except this is entirely untrue.

    Hakeev was originally introduced in the Cloaked Intentions featured series, where all he does is hunt down the Remans because he finds them to be scum worth killing. He was literally committing genocide simply because he could. And that same arc established in the Coliseum mission that he had sold out to the Iconians long before as well.

    LoR didn't make him a traitor, he was one since his first introduction.

    I love the blatant historical revisionism going on.
  • patrickngopatrickngo Member Posts: 9,518 Arc User
    patrickngo wrote: »
    This is a writing psychology problem-the psychology of the writers can't handle the idea of an enemy who is against the chosen hero faction, who isn't absolutely out to lunch insane.
    Lets ignore
    -B'vat, who is heavily suggested to be fulfilling his role in time using knowledge of the future he gained ultimately from the Na'Kuhl. As his past self mentions, hes ashamed of what hes become in the future, but we still know he goes through with it after gaining that knowledge, seemingly because he knows he has to do it.
    -The Devidians, whose need to feed on mental energy is biological, and not their choice.
    -The 2800, who were just confused and didn't know the war was over.
    -The Breen, who just wanted to get some Preserver tech.
    -The Voth, who didn't even want to use the Omega Particles to kill anyone, they were just trying to create a barrier between them and the Borg since their war with the Borg was going badly. And that would be an admittedly useful strategy, if also a very devastating one.
    -The Undine, who were tricked by the Iconians into thinking we broke the pact they made with Janeway first, and who promptly left once this deception was uncovered. Even Undine Cooper, who you reductio ad absurdum as being crazy, was only continuing the war because he had learned of the Iconians and knew just how powerful they were, and was trying to save his species by getting on their good side.
    -The Iconians watched every race they had ever helped not only attack and destroy all of their worlds, but also kill the rest of their species to the point of basically extinction. Even then, they originally just planned to take the World Heart and rebuild elsewhere. It was only after even that was taken from them that they tried to conquer the galaxy, in order to prevent something like that from ever happening again. When given the ability to rebuild, they promptly left.
    -Noye literally had his wife and unborn child erased from existence by the Alliance's poor use of time alteration
    -The Sphere Builders had most of their race destroyed, and the rest forced into a sub-space realm due to the Alliance's poor use of time alteration
    -The Na'Kuhl had their sun snuffed out by an Alliance scientist's god tech that he couldn't keep in his pants.
    -The Tzenkethi, who were going to extremes in an attempt to stop the Hur'q, but were actually trying to save the galaxy as a whole, and only attacked an Alliance world because Odo tricked them into it. They also point out the obvious reasons why none of the other factions would have helped them, and thus, why they didn't seek help.

    You seem to have the bad notion that "anyone who disagrees with me is insane!", when that isn't what insanity is.

    The ones that could be defined as "insane" such as Hakeev, Torg, and Leeta, are all based on how those races/factions acted in the TV shows, and that's just Cryptic sticking to canon. Romulans in general, traitorous Klingons like Chang and Duras, and the Terran Empire are all shown to be like that is canon.
    patrickngo wrote: »
    even the Borg Queen is nuts
    The Borg Queen LITERALLY CANNOT BE INSANE BY ANY DEFINITION.

    All she does is follow a directive that was created by the original Borg, or the Borg's creators. She has no real free will to defy this overall mission of the Borg, all she can do is make alterations to the overall means by which the Borg achieve those goals.

    B'Vat: whose entire character arc is religious-crazy. "You have a destiny" retconned onto the back end after the Na'Kuhl were brought into the game (Years after his initial character arc) and yes, his actions are absolutely nuts. First off, pre-TCW storyline, B'Vat might've had records from his own HOUSE to tell him, but info from enemy aliens that makes you do counterproductive things is not something you follow blindly. he could have more easily used his professionally trained diplomatic mouth to accomplish the same ends without exposing the empire to risk.
    (You do remember his title, right? "Ambassador".)

    Borg Queen: your excuse is she's programmed to be crazy-in which case she's literally incapable of having a choice, so she's also non-sentient. This is an example of turning a major villain faction from the show into a kill-rats-quest line.

    the Na'Kuhl are more or less "An Environmental hazard" rather than a real adversary-and I'll agree, the scientist who could not keep it in his pants is to blame for that. Notably, he had sanction from the time-travel authorities and was positioned to guarantee all the bad things would happen so that the end-of-time-regime could take power on the basis of someone (Kal Dano, it turns out) going out and breaking the pre-existing rules.

    I didn't say "The Iconians" I said "T'Ket". T'ket is Crazy. There are 11 surviving Iconians, obviously they DEFINE "Endangered Species"-and she's more interested in waging wars to make that smaller, than rebuilding.

    The breen? another "Kill Rats quest". Notably Thot-whatever is also nuts, doing counter-productive things in stupid ways until it kills him.

    the Undine as a race aren't insane, but "Doctor Cooper" is delusional and not in control of himself.

    I'll give you the voth;they're not crazy. Stupid maybe, but not crazy. It hinges on whether the Borg have knowledge of an FTL method that doesn't rely on subspace, and whether the voth can maintain their empire without warp drive and subspace communication, because if they can't do that already, their actions are on the stupid side of desperate.



    KDF: Not supported by Cryptic, because according to them, we're not 'Real' Star Trek fans.

    Well, TRIBBLE them, I'll play KDF anyway.

    "We are the Federation. Resistance is futile, we will add your biological and technological distinctiveness to our own."-Cryptic Studios

    Advocacy
    simple logic process:

    The body is filled with so much blood...It's always more than you think!! -Dr. Dinosaur

  • roguealltrekroguealltrek Member Posts: 85 Arc User
    in the end its going to be federation and not a thing besides federation.

    In all the series and movies that in the end is all it is every planet race person or event in the end its federation.

    In the motion picture people die transporter failure even klingon ships poof gone. The end federation views and happy ending.

    The wrath of kahn. Kahn dies spock dies station dies nebula blows up. Federation just fine and happy.

    The search for spock. O look more klingons die, planet dies, ship explodes, and Kirk lost his son but in the end federation just fine.

    The voyage home. Same story different day whip around the sun time travel, and presto federation just fine.

    star trek 5. Again ship gets hijacked klingons attack the great barrier, and alien entity dies. Then ending federation and klingon ship side by side every one is happy.

    star trek 6 ends federation and klingons working together and everyone happy,

    and so on every show reboot or not ends with the federation is just fine regardless of the personal damage to any one its always federation ideals and actions and everyone is happy.

    So besides the limitation of the game being a mmo at the end of the day the story has one possible outcome. I still think that faction missions would be a good thing to place in between the main story and don't see why they can't make these branching personal objectives where your actions for that set of missions matter. but the main story will always be about the federation, and at the end of that day federation wins that is star trek in a nut shell.
    To be or not to be: B)
  • patrickngopatrickngo Member Posts: 9,518 Arc User
    in the end its going to be federation and not a thing besides federation.

    In all the series and movies that in the end is all it is every planet race person or event in the end its federation.

    In the motion picture people die transporter failure even klingon ships poof gone. The end federation views and happy ending.

    The wrath of kahn. Kahn dies spock dies station dies nebula blows up. Federation just fine and happy.

    The search for spock. O look more klingons die, planet dies, ship explodes, and Kirk lost his son but in the end federation just fine.

    The voyage home. Same story different day whip around the sun time travel, and presto federation just fine.

    star trek 5. Again ship gets hijacked klingons attack the great barrier, and alien entity dies. Then ending federation and klingon ship side by side every one is happy.

    star trek 6 ends federation and klingons working together and everyone happy,

    and so on every show reboot or not ends with the federation is just fine regardless of the personal damage to any one its always federation ideals and actions and everyone is happy.

    So besides the limitation of the game being a mmo at the end of the day the story has one possible outcome. I still think that faction missions would be a good thing to place in between the main story and don't see why they can't make these branching personal objectives where your actions for that set of missions matter. but the main story will always be about the federation, and at the end of that day federation wins that is star trek in a nut shell.

    I'm actually not going to disagree with the end=state, but people don't watch WWII movies for the Yalta Peace conference and don't (continually) obsess about the American Civil War because they're curious about which side wins.

    it's 'Getting there from here" that provides the story.

    Cryptic pretty much rushes the ending by telling the point of view characters FIRST.

    Thus everything ends up being "Kill me some rats to move the slider left to right, it is your Destiny."

    The whole 'getting there' is self-sabotaged by Cryptic's 'writing' staff (yes, in quotes. the actual writers don't work there anymore.)

    there is no drama in the "KLingon war" because we all get to see the end before it's over, and all the major action happens off-screen, or only-on-federation-side. *(B'Vat being a prime example.)

    Really, Cryptic should never have done more than the one faction they can actually invest in, but overcommitment is a thing they do-taking on more than they can possible handle or justify.

    we get plot after plot of 'Saving the whole galaxy!!" because the devs can't handle the smaller conflicts.
    KDF: Not supported by Cryptic, because according to them, we're not 'Real' Star Trek fans.

    Well, TRIBBLE them, I'll play KDF anyway.

    "We are the Federation. Resistance is futile, we will add your biological and technological distinctiveness to our own."-Cryptic Studios

    Advocacy
    simple logic process:

    The body is filled with so much blood...It's always more than you think!! -Dr. Dinosaur

  • roguealltrekroguealltrek Member Posts: 85 Arc User
    patrickngo wrote: »
    in the end its going to be federation and not a thing besides federation.
    sniped for brevity.

    I'm actually not going to disagree with the end=state, but people don't watch WWII movies for the Yalta Peace conference and don't (continually) obsess about the American Civil War because they're curious about which side wins.

    it's 'Getting there from here" that provides the story.

    Cryptic pretty much rushes the ending by telling the point of view characters FIRST.

    Thus everything ends up being "Kill me some rats to move the slider left to right, it is your Destiny."

    The whole 'getting there' is self-sabotaged by Cryptic's 'writing' staff (yes, in quotes. the actual writers don't work there anymore.)

    there is no drama in the "KLingon war" because we all get to see the end before it's over, and all the major action happens off-screen, or only-on-federation-side. *(B'Vat being a prime example.)

    Really, Cryptic should never have done more than the one faction they can actually invest in, but overcommitment is a thing they do-taking on more than they can possible handle or justify.

    we get plot after plot of 'Saving the whole galaxy!!" because the devs can't handle the smaller conflicts.

    I don't disagree with you regarding the getting there from hear as in any thing the experience some times counts more than the end. My point was simply you have no choice at the end of it all.

    I do think simple things can be made to matter as a course of player choice. For instance a side set of missions 3 episodes long if i for instance run a dagger thru a person in mission one for insulting me. Then it may only result in a different representative in mission three but at least i can effect the outcome in a small way.
    Or if i let him live a reference to me doing so in mission 3 and the npc shows up for the mission.

    That is a simple branching outcome that should be possible to do even in a mmo but i don't see that happening here in this game. even in the missions we had choices in the outcome don't branch in any way even in the same mission.
    To be or not to be: B)
  • thevampinatorthevampinator Member Posts: 425 Arc User
    edited December 2018
    Well they can do well to fill in the gaps. Also them not doing more then one option was not really a choice by cryptic as they did not always own the game another company did. I think they might have removed kdf if it was not for two reasons its so coded into the game they just can't do it and also their would be players very upset. The way the coding is they could not do even a full Romulan faction or even a full Dominion Because the the Star Fleet and Kdf Factions Systems are so ingrained into the code. In order for them to do it they would have to ingrain another Invite team option. Basically a copy and paste which is something they could do but they would need to program it to where it does not mess with the original. We might one day see them do it but till then it won't happen.
  • somtaawkharsomtaawkhar Member Posts: 5,008 Arc User
    edited December 2018
    patrickngo wrote: »
    B'Vat: whose entire character arc is religious-crazy. "You have a destiny" retconned onto the back end after the Na'Kuhl were brought into the game
    Incorrect. The information about the Na'Kuhl giving a sect of Klingons information about the future during the Temporal Cold War was there long before even the Iconian war happened. It was part of the Klingon War missions as early as the switch to free to play.
    patrickngo wrote: »
    but info from enemy aliens that makes you do counterproductive things is not something you follow blindly. he could have more easily used his professionally trained diplomatic mouth to accomplish the same ends without exposing the empire to risk.
    (You do remember his title, right? "Ambassador".)
    You do remember that his title as "ambassador" was entirely ceremonial and that even other members of the Klingon Empire admit he only ever conducted negotiations at the business end of a disruptor? His actions were also not counter productive as they drew the Federation into the Undine conflict, when previously they had been ignoring it, which led to the galaxy being saved. And his actions also let him kidnap Miral Paris, and take her back to the past so she could cure the Klingon Augment virus, saving the Klingon people from the shame being smooth headed. Something that the Federation would have never allowed peacefully.
    patrickngo wrote: »
    Borg Queen: your excuse is she's programmed to be crazy-in which case she's literally incapable of having a choice, so she's also non-sentient. This is an example of turning a major villain faction from the show into a kill-rats-quest line.
    Except nothing the Borg Queen does in-game is crazy. And everything she does is what the Borg have always done, assimilate everything in their path. Hell, the Borg Queen only shows up TWICE in game. First to defend the Hive during "Into the Hive/Hive Onslaught", and later during "Borg Disconnected" as part of her plan to re-assimilate freed Cooperative ships as a means to rebuild the Collective due to the losses they have suffered. How is EITHER of those things
    A. Crazy?
    B. Something that is any different from how she acted in the TV show?
    patrickngo wrote: »
    the Na'Kuhl are more or less "An Environmental hazard" rather than a real adversary-and I'll agree, the scientist who could not keep it in his pants is to blame for that. Notably, he had sanction from the time-travel authorities and was positioned to guarantee all the bad things would happen so that the end-of-time-regime could take power on the basis of someone (Kal Dano, it turns out) going out and breaking the pre-existing rules.
    The Na'Kuhl are literally the most seen member of the Temporal Liberation Front, making them, by far, the primary adversary during the TWC questline. And your entire rant about Daniels changes nothing about the actual point made about the Na'Kuhl having a reason to do what they did.(in fact it supports it) You're just trying to deflect and more goalposts at this point.
    patrickngo wrote: »
    I didn't say "The Iconians" I said "T'Ket". T'ket is Crazy. There are 11 surviving Iconians, obviously they DEFINE "Endangered Species"-and she's more interested in waging wars to make that smaller, than rebuilding.
    T'Ket also saw literally every race the Iconians had ever helped betray them, murder almost all of their people, and destroy most everything they had ever built. Her actions, and desire to continue her campaign to try to subjugate the galaxy, are based on some pretty damn good personal experience that suggests others can't be trusted. She's basically the same as The Dominion. The Changelings went out into the galaxy, tried to explore and make contact with other races, and were instead hunted down and killed by solids, so, as a response, they began subjugating them as a means of self protection. That isn't being crazy, that's having TRIBBLE personal experiences that give you every reason to believe what you are doing is right.
    patrickngo wrote: »
    The breen? another "Kill Rats quest". Notably Thot-whatever is also nuts, doing counter-productive things in stupid ways until it kills him.
    What did he do that was counter productive again? He took pretty basic steps to capture and extract the information about the Preserver's location from the Deferi, followed up on it, and beat us there. If it hadn't turned out that it wasn't an archive of weapons as he thought, he would have won.
    patrickngo wrote: »
    the Undine as a race aren't insane, but "Doctor Cooper" is delusional and not in control of himself.
    Except he isn't. Undine Cooper was literally RIGHT ABOUT EVERYTHING, and doing what was the most obvious thing to survive the Iconian invasion, which was "do what they want you to do". Its pretty telling that the Undine did nothing against the Iconians during the Iconian war, and instead just hid in fluidic space and hopped the Iconians would ignore them.
    patrickngo wrote: »
    I'll give you the voth;they're not crazy. Stupid maybe, but not crazy. It hinges on whether the Borg have knowledge of an FTL method that doesn't rely on subspace, and whether the voth can maintain their empire without warp drive and subspace communication, because if they can't do that already, their actions are on the stupid side of desperate.
    you seem to be confused. The Voth wouldn't lose warp drive or subspace communication. The omega molecules would be detonated OUTSIDE of their space, to form a shield AROUND it, which would cut off warp warp INTO it, but not INSIDE it. No one suggested they detonate INSIDE their space.
    Post edited by somtaawkhar on
  • patrickngopatrickngo Member Posts: 9,518 Arc User
    Well they can do well to fill in the gaps. Also them not doing more then one option was not really a choice by cryptic as they did not always own the game another company did. I think they might have removed kdf if it was not for two reasons its so coded into the game they just can't do it and also their would be players very upset. The way the coding is they could not do even a full Romulan faction or even a full Dominion Because the the Star Fleet and Kdf Factions Systems are so ingrained into the code. In order for them to do it they would have to ingrain another Invite team option. Basically a copy and paste which is something they could do but they would need to program it to where it does not mess with the original. We might one day see them do it but till then it won't happen.

    They wanted to and were told 'no' by their code guys, so you're right there.

    Thing is, Cryptic doesn't have the manpower or resources to take on the bill of work they had in 2010, much less what's been piled on in nine years since, and the seams show, but beond that, there's a fundamental psychology going on as well; conflict averse people don't write conflicts very well, and when your studio's 'diversity' is limited to skin colors, that monocultural aspect means not being able to deliver on any but the lowest-common-denominator when you start talking about having playable factions.

    There's no diversity of viewpoint, which is fine for delivering the same homogenized pap they've delivered for the last six years, but it's unreasonable to ask for more than what they've already delivered, because even with a massive injection of money they would be unable to do it on a psychological or mental level.

    simply put, it's not reasonable to ask Cryptic for better development of any of the factions, because even if they had the money, they don't have the kind of people who can shift perspective or see value in contrasting moral or political structures. The best they can manage, is a flanderized, one-note portrayal that bounces around negative stereotypes for NPC 'villains' and trying to re-create the Player into season 1 TNG's version of Worf.

    this is LITERALLY the best the team @ Cryptic can do. Even with a massive injection of resources and funds, they really aren't ever going to be able to do better.

    KDF: Not supported by Cryptic, because according to them, we're not 'Real' Star Trek fans.

    Well, TRIBBLE them, I'll play KDF anyway.

    "We are the Federation. Resistance is futile, we will add your biological and technological distinctiveness to our own."-Cryptic Studios

    Advocacy
    simple logic process:

    The body is filled with so much blood...It's always more than you think!! -Dr. Dinosaur

  • thevampinatorthevampinator Member Posts: 425 Arc User
    edited December 2018
    patrickngo wrote: »
    Well they can do well to fill in the gaps. Also them not doing more then one option was not really a choice by cryptic as they did not always own the game another company did. I think they might have removed kdf if it was not for two reasons its so coded into the game they just can't do it and also their would be players very upset. The way the coding is they could not do even a full Romulan faction or even a full Dominion Because the the Star Fleet and Kdf Factions Systems are so ingrained into the code. In order for them to do it they would have to ingrain another Invite team option. Basically a copy and paste which is something they could do but they would need to program it to where it does not mess with the original. We might one day see them do it but till then it won't happen.

    They wanted to and were told 'no' by their code guys, so you're right there.

    Thing is, Cryptic doesn't have the manpower or resources to take on the bill of work they had in 2010, much less what's been piled on in nine years since, and the seams show, but beond that, there's a fundamental psychology going on as well; conflict averse people don't write conflicts very well, and when your studio's 'diversity' is limited to skin colors, that monocultural aspect means not being able to deliver on any but the lowest-common-denominator when you start talking about having playable factions.

    There's no diversity of viewpoint, which is fine for delivering the same homogenized pap they've delivered for the last six years, but it's unreasonable to ask for more than what they've already delivered, because even with a massive injection of money they would be unable to do it on a psychological or mental level.

    simply put, it's not reasonable to ask Cryptic for better development of any of the factions, because even if they had the money, they don't have the kind of people who can shift perspective or see value in contrasting moral or political structures. The best they can manage, is a flanderized, one-note portrayal that bounces around negative stereotypes for NPC 'villains' and trying to re-create the Player into season 1 TNG's version of Worf.

    this is LITERALLY the best the team @ Cryptic can do. Even with a massive injection of resources and funds, they really aren't ever going to be able to do better.

    They could do a total revamp of the Kdf faction redo the doff missions making the klingons more honorable. Add in the Orion Embasy found in discovery maybe as a quest hub for more less then honorable Klingon Characters. Like Orions and other Pirate Races. Revamp First City make it less rusty in design like they did with Earth Space Dock. Or add in a starbase like Earth Space dock to the Kdf side. Buff many of their ships and traits, to be on pare or a little better then their Fed counterparts. Find some way to balance all the ships they have to be more in line with pvp. Add in the Discovery Klingon Models. Intermix them with the Regular Klingons. For Discovery Nastalga. Maybe add in a city that looks kinda like mirror bajor or replace First City with something like that where players can find it appealing. They could in fact revamp kdf alltogether and make them a faction that isn't all honorable warrier murder innocents but a society that has moved more in line to the way it was before the warrior cast took over in the time of Enterprise. Even remove the torture part to the one mission and add in the option not to attack the federation ships when going after drake that choice is very forced upon the klingon player. Not all Klingons are Murderous salvages some will be diplomatic and that should be an option for the Kdf players. My hope is they revamp the Kdf tutorial like they have with the Federation maybe even getting your own ship after completing Klingon Academy. Showing the good parts of Klingon Culture Kahless as you do the Tutorial maybe even have Worf be your sponsor and then maybe working for him from the very beginning. Working as Both House of Martok and with the Klingon Defense Force instead of going out to war against the federation defending kdf areas from Federation Attack. While the others are warring with the Federation.
  • baddmoonrizinbaddmoonrizin Member Posts: 4,832 Community Moderator
    Ok. This has become just a big bash on the devs threads with the same arguments repeated ad nauseam. /Thread
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