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[STAR TREK DiSCOVERY] | SEASON TWO |

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  • starkaosstarkaos Member Posts: 11,556 Arc User
    So Saru comes from a pre-Warp civilization. It does raise the question about how reasonable the Warp Drive requirement is to join the Federation. Not all alien races will develop FTL travel even if they are a highly advanced civilization. Denying a civilization from joining the Federation because they don't create their own FTL ship seems like discrimination.
  • khan5000khan5000 Member Posts: 3,007 Arc User
    Is there an actual rule stating only Warp capable societies can be admitted into the Federation? I look at the TOS episode “Errand of Mercy” and they were ready to admit Organia even though they had no technology.
    Your pain runs deep.
    Let us explore it... together. Each man hides a secret pain. It must be exposed and reckoned with. It must be dragged from the darkness and forced into the light. Share your pain. Share your pain with me... and gain strength from the sharing.
  • starkaosstarkaos Member Posts: 11,556 Arc User
    khan5000 wrote: »
    Is there an actual rule stating only Warp capable societies can be admitted into the Federation? I look at the TOS episode “Errand of Mercy” and they were ready to admit Organia even though they had no technology.

    From the First Contact episode (not movie) in TNG:

    PICARD: We've been monitoring your progress toward warp-drive capability. When a society reaches your level of technology and is clearly about to initiate warp travel, we feel the time is right for first contact. We prefer meeting like this, rather than a random confrontation in deep space.

    So it is possible that there might be exceptions to the FTL rule like a civilization being in a strategic location.
  • markhawkmanmarkhawkman Member Posts: 35,231 Arc User
    starkaos wrote: »
    khan5000 wrote: »
    Is there an actual rule stating only Warp capable societies can be admitted into the Federation? I look at the TOS episode “Errand of Mercy” and they were ready to admit Organia even though they had no technology.
    From the First Contact episode (not movie) in TNG:

    PICARD: We've been monitoring your progress toward warp-drive capability. When a society reaches your level of technology and is clearly about to initiate warp travel, we feel the time is right for first contact. We prefer meeting like this, rather than a random confrontation in deep space.

    So it is possible that there might be exceptions to the FTL rule like a civilization being in a strategic location.
    There's a very explicit exception. If another power is mucking with them.
    -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
    My character Tsin'xing
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  • khan5000khan5000 Member Posts: 3,007 Arc User
    Your pain runs deep.
    Let us explore it... together. Each man hides a secret pain. It must be exposed and reckoned with. It must be dragged from the darkness and forced into the light. Share your pain. Share your pain with me... and gain strength from the sharing.
  • khan5000khan5000 Member Posts: 3,007 Arc User
    > @somtaawkhar said:
    > khan5000 wrote: »
    >
    > New trailer:
    >
    > https://m.youtube.com/watch?feature=youtu.be&v=9o8kFyeOdfY
    >
    >
    >
    >
    > Every time they tease a little bit more about the enemy I get more and more Iconian vibes, even though I know that won't happen.

    I will be surprised if it’s not an Iconian
    Your pain runs deep.
    Let us explore it... together. Each man hides a secret pain. It must be exposed and reckoned with. It must be dragged from the darkness and forced into the light. Share your pain. Share your pain with me... and gain strength from the sharing.
  • redvengeredvenge Member Posts: 1,425 Arc User
    So I sort of skipped over all the pages and pages of back and forth "What would Spock do?" in the thread. I was fairly ambivalent about the whole thing, until I read what Kurtzman actually said about his take on Spock:
    What gets me so excited about the story that we get to tell with Spock this season is that it’s the unwritten chapter of Spock. This is not the Spock that you know from the beginning of TOS, this is pre-TOS. He is not that formed Vulcan yet. His experience with the Red Angel and the signals has fried his logical brain. He cannot make sense of it. And he is emotionally ill-equipped to deal with it. So both logic and emotion are failing him, totally. And he is totally unsure of himself and trying to figure out how to make sense of the mystery and where he fits into the world. And it’s through his complicated relationship with his sister that he’s able to figure out how to become and actualize himself as the Spock that we know from TOS. And that’s really exciting to us because it in no way violates canon, it just builds on what’s been set before.
    https://trekmovie.com/2018/10/15/interview-star-trek-discovery-producers-talk-planets-canon-and-why-season-2-needs-spock/

    So... let me get this straight. Because no one has written about Spock in this time, you can "fill in the blanks" by creating a completely new character, calling him Spock, and no one can say you are "violating canon" because... you said so?

    This sounds like the justification you gave for the new Kling-orks. Kurtzman, you realize one of the biggest draws of the Bad Robot movies (that you worked on) was how accurately the actors cosplayed established characters, right? Karl Urban's portrayal of Doctor McCoy has been lauded by several critics and fans for how good it was. Now, you want to make a "completely new fresh take" on Spock, because you "fried his brain". If you want to make an entirely new character, why name him Spock? Just... make a new character. If this character is going to be nothing like the Spock we have seen, what are you doing?

    It's like they chose to make a prequel because "Well, this happened BEFORE they became who they are, so we can do whatever we want because NO ONE KNOWS what stuff was like BEFORE. The sky is the limit!". If you don't want to write about these characters in this setting, why are you here? Make new characters or write for some other setting. I'm not opposed to new characters. Stop re-writing existing characters because you are hacks who lack faith in your own creative works.
  • garaks31garaks31 Member Posts: 2,845 Arc User
    edited December 2018
    Kobayashi Maru
    we have seen in TOS, that spock do a lot of non Vulcan stuff. tuvok didn't like working with humans when he was in Excelsior. when it comes to rapid personality changes Vulcans are the perfect race...
  • khan5000khan5000 Member Posts: 3,007 Arc User
    I look at it as their attempt to bridge the Spock from The Cage and the Spock from TOS. How do we go from this yelling and smiling Spock to the Mister Spock we know from the series
    Your pain runs deep.
    Let us explore it... together. Each man hides a secret pain. It must be exposed and reckoned with. It must be dragged from the darkness and forced into the light. Share your pain. Share your pain with me... and gain strength from the sharing.
  • starkaosstarkaos Member Posts: 11,556 Arc User
    khan5000 wrote: »
    I look at it as their attempt to bridge the Spock from The Cage and the Spock from TOS. How do we go from this yelling and smiling Spock to the Mister Spock we know from the series

    The easiest way to do it would be to kill Burnham and have Spock blame himself for her death. It also gives a very good excuse for why Spock never mentioned he had a human sister in TOS.
  • khan5000khan5000 Member Posts: 3,007 Arc User
    He also didn’t mention his parents, fiancé and half brother
    Your pain runs deep.
    Let us explore it... together. Each man hides a secret pain. It must be exposed and reckoned with. It must be dragged from the darkness and forced into the light. Share your pain. Share your pain with me... and gain strength from the sharing.
  • starkaosstarkaos Member Posts: 11,556 Arc User
    khan5000 wrote: »
    He also didn’t mention his parents, fiancé and half brother

    Sure he did. It just took decades for him to mention his half-brother and years to mention his parents and fiance. A traumatic experience could make him less likely for him to open up about his family. We will just have to wait and see how much of a difference there is between Discovery Spock and TOS Spock.
  • khan5000khan5000 Member Posts: 3,007 Arc User
    I expect Disco Spock (TM) to be different than TOS Spock
    Your pain runs deep.
    Let us explore it... together. Each man hides a secret pain. It must be exposed and reckoned with. It must be dragged from the darkness and forced into the light. Share your pain. Share your pain with me... and gain strength from the sharing.
  • starkaosstarkaos Member Posts: 11,556 Arc User
    And we will have to see what turns jovial Disco Spock into stoic TOS Spock.
  • angrytargangrytarg Member Posts: 11,001 Arc User
    Which is even more terrible than in-universe 'explanations' of costume differences. It was a unaired pilot, Spock just wasn't written yet. This is not where they should set theor priorities.
    lFC4bt2.gif
    ^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
    "No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
    "A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
    "That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
  • artan42artan42 Member Posts: 10,450 Bug Hunter
    People change at different times in their lives!? Sometimes the change can even be dramatic!?

    Urgh mi gods!?!?!!!! Muh cannnnon.

    It's like some people can't even handle real life never mind fictional people.
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    Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
    JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.

    #TASforSTO


    '...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
    'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
    'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
    '...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
    'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
    '...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek

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  • khan5000khan5000 Member Posts: 3,007 Arc User
    angrytarg wrote: »
    Which is even more terrible than in-universe 'explanations' of costume differences. It was a unaired pilot, Spock just wasn't written yet. This is not where they should set theor priorities.

    An unaired pilot that became canon when it was part of a two part episode.
    Your pain runs deep.
    Let us explore it... together. Each man hides a secret pain. It must be exposed and reckoned with. It must be dragged from the darkness and forced into the light. Share your pain. Share your pain with me... and gain strength from the sharing.
  • angrytargangrytarg Member Posts: 11,001 Arc User
    > @khan5000 said:
    > angrytarg wrote: »
    >
    > Which is even more terrible than in-universe 'explanations' of costume differences. It was a unaired pilot, Spock just wasn't written yet. This is not where they should set theor priorities.
    >
    >
    >
    >
    > An unaired pilot that became canon when it was part of a two part episode.

    They didn't reshoot the material. That still stems from the pilot and we know it looks like it did because of that. It's exactly the same with Klingon looks that were never an issue until someone brought it up decades later and decided it was a huge issue. The result was cringeworthy. This will repeat itself.
    lFC4bt2.gif
    ^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
    "No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
    "A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
    "That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
  • khan5000khan5000 Member Posts: 3,007 Arc User
    It depends on how they handle it. I absolutely 100% love Discovery’s reasoning behind why Sarek and Spock fall out over what TOS presented us.
    Your pain runs deep.
    Let us explore it... together. Each man hides a secret pain. It must be exposed and reckoned with. It must be dragged from the darkness and forced into the light. Share your pain. Share your pain with me... and gain strength from the sharing.
  • mustrumridcully0mustrumridcully0 Member Posts: 12,963 Arc User
    From the trailer it looks like mini-skirts are just coming back in Starfleet Fashion.
    Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
  • lordrezeonlordrezeon Member Posts: 399 Arc User
    edited December 2018
    Kobayashi Maru
    I'm not particularly upset about a slightly more emotional Spock for this time period. The original TOS pilot hadn't pegged down Spock as having suppressed emotions, hence the infamous scene of him with a wide grin. There is also the ST5 tidbit of young Spock wanting to go with his brother when he left (I think that one might have been from one of the deleted/trimmed down scenes).

    However the writer attitude that they have free reign to do anything they please with long established characters in a prequel setting is a bit disturbing. It only reinforces my belief that most modern writers don't respect the work of those who came before them, but are to lazy to make their own settings.

    edit:


    The Saru mini-sode also tends to make Georgiou and Starfleet look like a bunch of idiots. The writers interpretation of the Prime Directive is cringeworthy at best, disgusting at worst. Most other captains would have found some way to help, even if it was merely chasing off the alien cannibals.
  • markhawkmanmarkhawkman Member Posts: 35,231 Arc User
    lordrezeon wrote: »
    The Saru mini-sode also tends to make Georgiou and Starfleet look like a bunch of idiots. The writers interpretation of the Prime Directive is cringeworthy at best, disgusting at worst. Most other captains would have found some way to help, even if it was merely chasing off the alien cannibals.
    Honestly? the Prime Directive often ends up being used that way. In TOS it was a randomly inconvenient law that Kirk found ways to bypass regularly.
    -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
    My character Tsin'xing
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  • khan5000khan5000 Member Posts: 3,007 Arc User
    > @lordrezeon said:
    > I'm not particularly upset about a slightly more emotional Spock for this time period. The original TOS pilot hadn't pegged down Spock as having suppressed emotions, hence the infamous scene of him with a wide grin. There is also the ST5 tidbit of young Spock wanting to go with his brother when he left (I think that one might have been from one of the deleted/trimmed down scenes).
    >
    > However the writer attitude that they have free reign to do anything they please with long established characters in a prequel setting is a bit disturbing. It only reinforces my belief that most modern writers don't respect the work of those who came before them, but are to lazy to make their own settings.
    >
    > edit:
    >
    >
    > The Saru mini-sode also tends to make Georgiou and Starfleet look like a bunch of idiots. The writers interpretation of the Prime Directive is cringeworthy at best, disgusting at worst. Most other captains would have found some way to help, even if it was merely chasing off the alien cannibals.

    But that’s the beauty of prequels. You can do what you want with a character as long as it leads to the end result. Example: if I got tasked with doing a James Bond series before he became an agent, I can really do what I want with the character (with in reason) as long as I know it should lead to him joining the British Navy and ultimately MI-6.

    The Prime Directive is one of the worst things to happen to Star Trek. It’s a drama plot device that is not defined and is never used the same way twice. It prevented Picard from helping a planet of addicts that were being prey upon by another planet.
    Your pain runs deep.
    Let us explore it... together. Each man hides a secret pain. It must be exposed and reckoned with. It must be dragged from the darkness and forced into the light. Share your pain. Share your pain with me... and gain strength from the sharing.
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