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KDF disinvestment tangent

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  • somtaawkharsomtaawkhar Member Posts: 5,045 Arc User
    patrickngo wrote: »
    Kagran's 'grand strategy' was "Run at the enemy in their fortified position wwhere they outnumber you and have a technology advantage, in the open, like lemmings." This is not brilliance, unless you're trying to get your own soldiers killed and score 'own side goals'. every move we see in-game, shows the man is completely incompetent as a commander, more akin to Ambrose Burnside than George Patton, ergo, he's an idiot. That anyone bought off on his 'strategy' shows that the politicians are even less competent.

    further, Kahless being incompetent was shown in the clone episode, but his rank wasn't earned to begin with, and he was only accepted by Gowron (and later Martok) as a symbolic ruler with no real power-for a reason.

    but Kagran? was an idiot. a moron. He might've had the right morality for the Federation to find him acceptable as an interim but his 'tactics' were moronic and stupid and suicidal. we can lay some of that on a writing staff that is totally and completely unfamiliar with tactics or strategy, but it doesn't change the fact only an idiot or someone with godmode plot armor would go with his 'tactics'.

    Simply put, Kagran tried to brute-force in the open, against an enemy with better equipment, more troops in a better position who knew he was coming.

    That'sn ot brilliant, that's fundamentally moronic.

    I stand by my statement; Cryptic has already flanderized teh Klingons into a bunch of idiots.
    This argument entirely ignores that the Iconians had complete technological and numerical superiority in ways far beyond what the Alliance could imagine, and the Alliance could imagine a lot.

    Tactics as we understand them are completely and utterly useless against an enemy that can teleport around any sort of defense, and who can open up portals into suns to shoot supercharged beams of solar energy at you. Not to mention the fact the Iconians spent the better part of 200,000 years making enough cloned Herald soldiers, that are so strong they make the Jem'Hadar look like kittens, to fill an entire Dyson Sphere, as well as another moon sized mini-Dyson Sphere, full of them. It wouldn't have mattered how many Heralds/Herald ships the Alliance destroyed using guerilla tactics, or how many power plants/bases they destroyed in sneak attacks, nothing would have registered as more them the smallest of blips to the Iconian's total forces.

    Literally, the only thing one can do is try to attack them in the hopes you can distract their forces long enough to get a team in to try to kill the Iconian leaders, which is what they tried.

    Kagran attempted the singular traditional option that was available to the Alliance, as he should have, before resulting to the time altering super weapon they couldn't even be sure what the consequences would be of using. That by no means is stupid unless you are deliberately trying to ignore the reality of the situation to find any fault with the narrative possible.
  • patrickngopatrickngo Member Posts: 9,534 Arc User
    patrickngo wrote: »
    Kagran's 'grand strategy' was "Run at the enemy in their fortified position wwhere they outnumber you and have a technology advantage, in the open, like lemmings." This is not brilliance, unless you're trying to get your own soldiers killed and score 'own side goals'. every move we see in-game, shows the man is completely incompetent as a commander, more akin to Ambrose Burnside than George Patton, ergo, he's an idiot. That anyone bought off on his 'strategy' shows that the politicians are even less competent.

    further, Kahless being incompetent was shown in the clone episode, but his rank wasn't earned to begin with, and he was only accepted by Gowron (and later Martok) as a symbolic ruler with no real power-for a reason.

    but Kagran? was an idiot. a moron. He might've had the right morality for the Federation to find him acceptable as an interim but his 'tactics' were moronic and stupid and suicidal. we can lay some of that on a writing staff that is totally and completely unfamiliar with tactics or strategy, but it doesn't change the fact only an idiot or someone with godmode plot armor would go with his 'tactics'.

    Simply put, Kagran tried to brute-force in the open, against an enemy with better equipment, more troops in a better position who knew he was coming.

    That'sn ot brilliant, that's fundamentally moronic.

    I stand by my statement; Cryptic has already flanderized teh Klingons into a bunch of idiots.
    This argument entirely ignores that the Iconians had complete technological and numerical superiority in ways far beyond what the Alliance could imagine, and the Alliance could imagine a lot.

    Tactics as we understand them are completely and utterly useless against an enemy that can teleport around any sort of defense, and who can open up portals into suns to shoot supercharged beams of solar energy at you. Not to mention the fact the Iconians spent the better part of 200,000 years making enough cloned Herald soldiers, that are so strong they make the Jem'Hadar look like kittens, to fill an entire Dyson Sphere, as well as another moon sized mini-Dyson Sphere, full of them. It wouldn't have mattered how many Heralds/Herald ships the Alliance destroyed using guerilla tactics, or how many power plants/bases they destroyed in sneak attacks, nothing would have registered as more them the smallest of blips to the Iconian's total forces.

    Literally, the only thing one can do is try to attack them in the hopes you can distract their forces long enough to get a team in to try to kill the Iconian leaders, which is what they tried.

    Kagran attempted the singular traditional option that was available to the Alliance, as he should have, before resulting to the time altering super weapon they couldn't even be sure what the consequences would be of using. That by no means is stupid unless you are deliberately trying to ignore the reality of the situation to find any fault with the narrative possible.

    Iconians, Heralds and all the rest of their bunch are still organic, and we've got Thalaron tech, their bases are still made of matter, and we've had Genesis bombs since the 2270s.

    Cloaks visibly and demonstrably work.

    Shall I go on? When the enemy can pop behind any defense, you DO go on the offense-but open field charges aren't something that will work. Luckily, the Klingons and the Romulans both have this thing, that works against Iconians, it's called a cloaking device.

    Mix a cloaking device with weapons scaled to the threat, (genesis bombs, Thalaron bombs/torpedoes) and you've got the makings of the ability to actually harm them.

    Charging face-on and uncloaked across open terrain against a fortified target? will not do this. it is both stupid, and wasteful, a single bombing mission could be carried out by a handful of ships, instead of wasting whole fleets on a futile frontal assault, their gateways make a great conduit for both Thalaron, and Genesis radiation, and they're demonstrated to be two way conduits.

    The fundamental flaw, of course, is that it's using weapons and techniques that could win, but happen to be weapons and techniques that violate the sensitive disposition of Federation officials-essentially Kagran sacrificed a generation of warriors because Okeg was squeamish.

    KDF: Not supported by Cryptic, because according to them, we're not 'Real' Star Trek fans.

    Well, TRIBBLE them, I'll play KDF anyway.

    "We are the Federation. Resistance is futile, we will add your biological and technological distinctiveness to our own."-Cryptic Studios

    Advocacy
    simple logic process:

    The body is filled with so much blood...It's always more than you think!! -Dr. Dinosaur

  • ruinthefunruinthefun Member Posts: 2,110 Arc User
    patrickngo wrote: »
    Kagran's 'grand strategy' was "Run at the enemy in their fortified position wwhere they outnumber you and have a technology advantage, in the open, like lemmings." This is not brilliance, unless you're trying to get your own soldiers killed and score 'own side goals'. every move we see in-game, shows the man is completely incompetent as a commander, more akin to Ambrose Burnside than George Patton, ergo, he's an idiot. That anyone bought off on his 'strategy' shows that the politicians are even less competent.
    Kagran's plan was a great plan: Like all great plans, so simple an idiot could have devised it: On his command, all ships will line up and file directly into the alien death cannons, clogging them with wreckage!


  • redvengeredvenge Member Posts: 1,337 Arc User
    edited December 2018
    warpangel wrote: »
    Yes, the iconian war could've been just a single cutscene in which they gated bombs into every military facility and murdered all the faction leaders in their sleep and then roll credits it's game over, the bad guys win.

    But making us fight dark space wizards in their black spiky ships of evil instead makes for a better game. ;)
    No, it does not. Especially since we can respawn. It just highlights how toothless and stupid the Iconians are.

    The Iconians share traits with the Elder Gods of Lovecraftian stories: unstoppable, unknowable cosmic entities that will end all life as we know it. Classically, such entities are defeated not with brute force because, you'll lose) but with guile, cunning, or not waking them up in the first place. Heralds were already a thing. There was no need to actually face Iconians in battle, and was boring and anti-climatic when it happened (to say nothing of the slap fight between Kah'less and T'Ket. set cringe to "kill", indeed).
    Your entire post ignores the fact that the Iconians didn't want to kill everyone in the galaxy, nor did they want to entirely destroy the functionality of all the worlds who stood up to them, they simply wanted to take over everyone in the galaxy for much of the same reasons why The Dominion do. Entirely destroying the infrastructure of world you plan to take over is counter productive to the overall goal.
    For space gods who can teleport anywhere they want to go, and build MULTIPLE DYSON SPHERES, restoring power and communication to a planet would be child's play.

    Surrender, and we make you a productive member of the Iconian Empire. With the intel they gathered over millennia this should be a trival task.
    As for the gateway tech, given that they never do it, we can infer that they can't open gateways inside ships easily. The Iconians needed the Borg to bring some of their tech onto their ship before they could portal the inside out.
    We cannot infer anything because we do not know how it works. To quote the Todd "It Just Works". The Iconians have unlimited resources and technology that far exceeds our own. The fact that the Iconian War lasted more than a few minutes reveals more about the Iconians stupidity than the Alliance's strength.

    Edit: I'm not going to continue derailing a KDF Rant with an Iconian Rant. I'll be happy to comment in another thread.
  • somtaawkharsomtaawkhar Member Posts: 5,045 Arc User
    edited December 2018
    patrickngo wrote: »
    Shall I go on?
    Please do, because all of the options you listed are non-options for obvious reasons.

    1. Thalaron weaponry, while effective against organic tissue, requires creating Thalaron radiation to weaponize it, and that isn't an easy process. Also, Thalaron radiation hasn't been shown to go through non-organic matter(such as the walls of the Romulan senate room, or ship hull, which is why nothing just instantly dies if you are hit by a Thalaron beam). That wouldn't be useful unless you got heralds out in the open, and the sheer number of Herald forces means that, even if you kill a lot of them via Thalaron weapons, there would still be billions more. You would still quite thoroughly lose in that situation. This would also be entirely useless against the Iconians themselves, as they aren't organic, but rather, beings of pure energy wearing metal bikini armor.

    2. Genesis Devices are also another non option, for obvious reasons. The Genesis Device, as we see it used in the movies, is able to create a planet from a nebula. This indicates that the Genesis wave is able take in bits of matter separated by pure vacuum of space. Despite this however, the Genesis Device's wave didn't just endlessly jump from one bit of matter in space to the next, eventually consuming the entire galaxy, indicating there is a rage to how far the wave can travel(likely based on how much protomatter is used). Given that it was made to transform the surface of a planet, we can pretty safely assume that the limit of its wave. By this metric, even if we got into the Iconian Dyson Sphere, and tried to genesis the inside of it, it would take a Genesis Bomb 550 MILLION times larger then the one used in the movies. If you tried to attack from the outside, you would have to triple that, that to not only cover the inside surface area of the sphere, but the outside are of the sphere which is larger. Essentially, you would need to create a Genesis device several times larger then Earth Space Dock, and use more protomatter then the Federation, Lukari, and Tzenkethi, have ever made.... combined... to create an effective bomb for that scenario. There is also the question of if this would work against the Iconians who are being of energy, and not matter, and thus likely unable to be harmed by a genesis wave.

    3. While you didn't mention it personally, I know @starswordc has advocated for using star destroying weapons on the Iconian Sphere, but this also poses obvious impossible problems. Firstly, the inside of the Iconian Dyson Sphere was so filled with Herald ships that they literally blotted out all light from the sun. The possibility of you getting anywhere near the sun to shoot a torpedo at it, or that torpedo actually hitting, is literally zero. Even if you could however, you would run into the problem that the Iconians are such masters of power generation and teleportation that they can literally jump an entire Dyson Sphere from one galaxy to another. At this level of technology, any attempt to mess with the sun would just result in them teleporting it out, and then teleporting a new one in. For additional TRIBBLE and giggles, they could teleport the sun you destabilized somewhere like... say... next to Earth, Qo'nos, or for extra irony, New Romulus, which means you just set yourself up the bomb. This ignoring the difficulty of getting a ship inside the actual Iconian Dyson Sphere, and not one of the smaller Herald Sphere like we break into during the "Broken Circle" mission, to begin with.

    4. Cloaks only works when attempting to attack a remote Iconian power plants that had no expectation of being attacked. There is nothing to suggest the Iconians don't have cloak detection technology when the Federation, Klingons, and Dominion, do. Especially given the fact that if it was possible, it would have been part of some mandatory mission sequences when we attack the Iconian Sphere, and it wasn't. We also know that the "perfect cloak" created by Shizon and his Reman allies isn't in use(presumably lost with the original Scimitar), even by the Romulans, as a standard detection grid was able to detect the ships Sela sent to attack Vulcan in the early Fed missions. So we can't even pull the "perfect cloak!" card against the Iconians.
    Post edited by somtaawkhar on
  • ltminnsltminns Member Posts: 7,956 Arc User
    edited December 2018
    For a Disinvestment strategy sell stocks and bonds and buy Silver. It's in high demand, and supplies are running out. :)
    Post edited by ltminns on
    'But to be logical is not to be right', and 'nothing' on God's earth could ever 'make it' right!
    Judge Dan Haywood
  • thevampinatorthevampinator Member Posts: 425 Arc User
    There is another reason why they could not destroy the Iconian sphere even with all the technology, Omega Particles. Like the other sphere in the game. I can imagine it working off an Omega Particle Engine. It provides enough power to allow the spheres to jump from place to place. The Terrans were able to destory the Iconians but then their future selves did help them out. In fact Starfleets Temporal Police according to one of the articles might even be the ones to make sure Terrans history isn't changed as much as it could be. As they would act like the Temporal Liberation Front in their universe. Changing the timeline to suit their own wants and desires. As such I think in one of the blogs it hints at Starfleet Temporal Police also policing the Mirror Universe.
    https://www.arcgames.com/en/games/star-trek-online/news/detail/10058533-my-own-worst-enemy
    Terrans seems do the way they operate seem to be able to do a lot more and maybe because of this don't lose as much as the Federation and the alliance has. But yeah with future technology or the Spore Drive Starfleet and the alliance might have been more successful in such a mission. But I do think it was good the way The Alliance Handled it in the end. Even though it inadvertently caused the destruction of Romulus.
  • warpangelwarpangel Member Posts: 8,003 Arc User
    It doesn't matter one bit what Kagran's plan was or what tech the iconians or the alliance had. This is a videogame and that means the war was always going to be won by the Player Character doing his/her thing. Any NPC attempt to resolve the conflict, whether allied or iconian, no matter what the outcome, was obviously going to fail because the point of a videogame is for the player to resolve the plot. Anything else would've made the player and therefore the game pointless.
  • thevampinatorthevampinator Member Posts: 425 Arc User
    edited December 2018
    Well Some might think Kagran was not a very good battle strategist, but then they were desperate Iconians would have overran everything. Which was the reason why they had to go back in time. But Kagran had true honor, instead of murdering them he helped them and by doing so, led the way to the end of the iconian war and the happy ending. Like him or Hate him without him the Iconian's would have all been wiped out and history would have been changed so much. So much the Federation and everything else might not have existed. So in the end he made the right choice even if people felt he made some very bad choices.
  • patrickngopatrickngo Member Posts: 9,534 Arc User
    edited December 2018
    Well Some might think Kagran was not a very good battle strategist, but then they were desperate Iconians would have overran everything. Which was the reason why they had to go back in time. But Kagran had true honor, instead of murdering them he helped them and by doing so, led the way to the end of the iconian war and the happy ending. Like him or Hate him without him the Iconian's would have all been wiped out and history would have been changed so much. So much the Federation and everything else might not have existed. So in the end he made the right choice even if people felt he made some very bad choices.

    I disagree that the change would have even been significant. The only difference, is that the Iconians wouldn't have incited the undine or murdered billions of Romulans, because they would have been properly dead instead of hiding off-stage, the Annorax would not have been built and whatsisface's wife's species wouldn't have become the sphere builders, so no temporal cold war, no TLF, no fate, no destiny of Federation-uber-alles.

    alright, so maybe some changes as it destabilizes the End-of-Time-Regime.
    KDF: Not supported by Cryptic, because according to them, we're not 'Real' Star Trek fans.

    Well, TRIBBLE them, I'll play KDF anyway.

    "We are the Federation. Resistance is futile, we will add your biological and technological distinctiveness to our own."-Cryptic Studios

    Advocacy
    simple logic process:

    The body is filled with so much blood...It's always more than you think!! -Dr. Dinosaur

  • brian334brian334 Member Posts: 2,096 Arc User
    The main issue is that outside of one or two instances in the starter quests, you never get a chance to be a Klingon.

    Like them or not, agree with them or not, there is a canon portrayal of Klingons, and outside of the Bat'leth tournament you never get to act that way.

    Example: In the first incarnation of Hakeev's death scene I was given the choice to kill him or not to kill him. My Fed character let him live, my Klingon killed him. That choice was taken away because it was considered inappropriate. But it was a very Klingon thing to do, and there was absolutely no reason for the choice to be removed other than to conform to some Federation ideal about killing, after we've killed dozens of others to get to that point. (And yeah, you can stun with phasers, which we certainly do with our orbital bombardment optionals.)

    Throughout the game there are no opportunities to choose Klingon dialogue options even if my character must end up doing the exact same thing Fed characters must do. At most it would require an extra line of dialogue here and there. All that would take is for the developers to think about things from a Klingon PoV every once in a while.

    Why is that too much to ask?
  • somtaawkharsomtaawkhar Member Posts: 5,045 Arc User
    edited December 2018
    patrickngo wrote: »
    I disagree that the change would have even been significant. The only difference, is that the Iconians wouldn't have incited the undine or murdered billions of Romulans, because they would have been properly dead instead of hiding off-stage, the Annorax would not have been built and whatsisface's wife's species wouldn't have become the sphere builders, so no temporal cold war, no TLF, no fate, no destiny of Federation-uber-alles.

    alright, so maybe some changes as it destabilizes the End-of-Time-Regime.
    This ignores the fact that, without the Xindi/Sphere builders/TCW affecting the Enterprise Era, the Federation would have likely never came into being. So reaching the point that they could go back in time and stop the Iconians would be impossible, creating a paradox.

    Not to mention what Nog said about removing the Iconians meaning the Hur'q never get warp drive, thus never attack the Klingons, thus, the Klingon never become a warrior species, and instead get conquered by the Vulcan Empire that's trapped in a life/death struggle with the Dominion. While we don't know exactly when the Iconians gave the Hur'q warp drive, it was likely post fall, meaning doing so would TRIBBLE over the Klingons hard.

    Also, had the Iconians not destroyed Romulus, they would have been assimilated by the Borg by 2410, as seen in "Butterfly". They are still dead either way.
  • potasssiumpotasssium Member Posts: 1,222 Arc User
    ...Battlecruisers. High agility Cruisers with the ability to slot DHCs as an option. That was what differentiated KDF Cruisers from Fed Cruisers. Fed Cruisers by tradition did not do DC / DHCs. Battlecruisers did not necessarily mean a LtCmdr TAC Station. We were spanking Feds with Lt TAC Negh'Vars and Lt + Ens TAC Vor'Chas. Fed Cruisers had the same Tactical Station layouts as KDF. It was the agility of KDF Battlecruisers and DC / DHC capability that Feds wanted.

    And they got it, in the form of the Fed Avenger Battlecruiser.

    Carriers. The KDF were the original faction with Carriers in STO. The Vo'Quv was the only Carrier and then the KDF get the C-Store Kar'Fi. If a Fed wanted a Carrier, they needed to fork out for the JHDC. Then the Atrox came out, and the Jupiter in Tier 6 years later. Hell, the KDF still doesn't have a Tier 6 Carrier unless it forks out big. The Vo'Quv and Kar'Fi still have not transitioned into Tier 6.

    Oh, speaking of Kar'Fi, the console it comes with? It doesn't even form a Set Bonus with the new event ship, another Fek'Ihri ship. The new ship is ONLY the 2nd ever ship from this race ever put into the game, and it doesn't even make a set bonus with the first ever. But this isn't the first time. The T6 Multi-Mission SCI Vessels / "Vesta" cross faction releases? The new Gorn ships don't even have a set bonus with the T5 Varanus Repair Platform.

    There's also been an interesting trend with many of these newer "KDF Battlecruisers" that don't behave like KDF Battlecruisers and can't even use DC / DHC weapons. They are all in effect, Fed Cruisers.

    There's all kinds more of oversights (evidence nobody understands the KDF in Cryptic), loss of uniqueness to the faction over the years.

    Federation Battlecruisers, the lack of a T6 Vo'Quv. The are probably the two things that bother me the most about KDF content or the lack there of. While I especially feel this was about the Avenger, this disdain also kept me away from the Federation CBC, while I did purchase the KDF CBC 3pk, as well as the Gorkon. Sadly I like the look of the Geneva, but not it's class. I'll put the Europa in this list too. The only Fed Battle Cruisers I forgive is the Eclipse (which is in my mind covert ops Section 31) and the Temporal ones.

    Battlecruisers without DC access are BC in name only, and just cruisers otherwise, 'meh'

    I will point out the T6 Ambassador/Vor'cha pack as an improvement, The Ambassador certainly isn't sporting DC. Even if the T6 is a Vor'cha/Kamarag hybrid in ways, it is a better execution than some. The Vor'cha has quite a bit of customization parts in contrast to other ships, so that is a big win.

    I never liked the Vesta that much, my go to fed sci ship is the Nebula, but I love the Gorn MMSV, so not too burned on that front. I'm used to the lack of set bonuses on KDF ships, and as such the t5 and t6 vesta sets are seperate sets I believe.

    If there was a 2 pc set for the Catian ships and not the Fek'Ihri, or Nausican, or Orion, etc... then I would be annoyed.

    KDF have gotten some great stuff too, the Mat'ha (my love and joy), the QeHpu' which I quite like, and the Kor come to mind. Only complaint on the Kor is the stupid t5 shipyard requirement.
    Thanks for the Advanced Light Cruiser, Allied Escort Bundles, Jem-Hadar Light Battlecruiser, and Mek'leth
    New Content Wishlist
    T6 updates for the Kamarag & Vor'Cha
    Heavy Cruiser & a Movie Era Style AoY Utility Cruiser
    Dahar Master Jacket

  • thevampinatorthevampinator Member Posts: 425 Arc User
    edited December 2018
    brian334 wrote: »
    The main issue is that outside of one or two instances in the starter quests, you never get a chance to be a Klingon.

    Like them or not, agree with them or not, there is a canon portrayal of Klingons, and outside of the Bat'leth tournament you never get to act that way.

    Example: In the first incarnation of Hakeev's death scene I was given the choice to kill him or not to kill him. My Fed character let him live, my Klingon killed him. That choice was taken away because it was considered inappropriate. But it was a very Klingon thing to do, and there was absolutely no reason for the choice to be removed other than to conform to some Federation ideal about killing, after we've killed dozens of others to get to that point. (And yeah, you can stun with phasers, which we certainly do with our orbital bombardment optionals.)

    Throughout the game there are no opportunities to choose Klingon dialogue options even if my character must end up doing the exact same thing Fed characters must do. At most it would require an extra line of dialogue here and there. All that would take is for the developers to think about things from a Klingon PoV every once in a while.

    Why is that too much to ask?

    Did they say that was the reason why they removed the option? They are currently revamping several federation missions and they took out nimbus as a main storyline for every faction except Romulan Republic and we won't know what they are doing with them they might be removing some more choices with them. I believe they revamped a lot of the romulan missions to account for the romulan republic from what I know. might have changed it so the romulan republic would be the one to kill him and no one else. It could even be for the reasons you described. As it is you do have an option to kill the orion or capture him with Nimbus.So at least there is that. Hopefully they don't move to remove that option. But who knows they might.
  • roguealltrekroguealltrek Member Posts: 85 Arc User
    edited December 2018
    brian334 wrote: »
    The main issue is that outside of one or two instances in the starter quests, you never get a chance to be a Klingon.

    Like them or not, agree with them or not, there is a canon portrayal of Klingons, and outside of the Bat'leth tournament you never get to act that way.

    Example: In the first incarnation of Hakeev's death scene I was given the choice to kill him or not to kill him. My Fed character let him live, my Klingon killed him. That choice was taken away because it was considered inappropriate. But it was a very Klingon thing to do, and there was absolutely no reason for the choice to be removed other than to conform to some Federation ideal about killing, after we've killed dozens of others to get to that point. (And yeah, you can stun with phasers, which we certainly do with our orbital bombardment optionals.)

    Throughout the game there are no opportunities to choose Klingon dialogue options even if my character must end up doing the exact same thing Fed characters must do. At most it would require an extra line of dialogue here and there. All that would take is for the developers to think about things from a Klingon PoV every once in a while.

    Why is that too much to ask?

    The short answer is yes.

    Long Answer....

    In this game you are on a single narrative that don’t care about your choices in any way.
    Romulan, Klingon, Human, Liberated Borg, Jem’Hadar, and any other race makes no difference, Your choice of profession Engineer, Tactical, or Science likewise makes no difference. Regardless of skills, ship, Equipment, the only outcome you change is how fast you kill something.

    Even the last few missions why trying something new and a change of pace is nice you as the character Are not even part of the story it’s a group of Ferengi. Why I am not saying I am upset by that the point is its even less of your story and more along the lines of you have became a side kick to the story at best.
    And the fiction blogs nice as they may be are not even tied in to the game it’s just what amounts to fan fiction. The developers are not going to spend one hour of time to make any changes in the script based on your choices or anyone else. They are going to do what CBS and PWI direct man hours in to regardless of what we the player base may want. Why some dev’s put in there own time on special projects the foundry for instance it’s not going to bring about the changes you are speaking of.

    I see no reason why they can’t turn out content for the different factions or even given the width and breadth of the IP one off missions with small rewards. Even as simple as say investigation where the TOS left off and have the player check up on what has developed in the present time of sto. For instance what happened after “The Gamesters of Triskelion” Did the brains hold to there word and teach did they decide not to what happened to them?

    When you look under the hood of any game they are just a system of data access and a graphic user interface.

    Missions the dev team uses a better set of tools then they provide for foundry authors it should not be that hard to make missions. Why i understand Good missions and great missions don't happen over night i would think having the writing Staff or single individual as the case may be concentrate on mission story in place of fiction blogs might help improve the speed of getting the missions.

    In any case I could go on for quite a bit but saying any more is pointless on my part and time spent. Part of why PWI wanted cryptic in the first place was this games framework to rapidly produce games with. So some where there has been a issue and i don't know where PWI CBS or Cryptic but at some point there is a bottleneck preventing this.
    Post edited by roguealltrek on
    To be or not to be: B)
  • jtoney3448jtoney3448 Member Posts: 603 Arc User
    When it comes down to it Ill go with the old 'Field of Dreams' quote. "If you build it they will come." If you invest little to nothing you get little to nothing back. You want KDF etc faction to be worth investing in well you have to build into it first.
  • somtaawkharsomtaawkhar Member Posts: 5,045 Arc User
    edited December 2018
    I see no reason why they can’t turn out content for the different factions or even given the width and breadth of the IP one off missions with small rewards. Even as simple as say investigation where the TOS left off and have the player check up on what has developed in the present time of sto. For instance what happened after “The Gamesters of Triskelion” Did the brains hold to there word and teach did they decide not to what happened to them?
    It can take nearly three months to make a single mission, so every mission you make for one faction means every other faction has to go even more months without anything. Also, most STO plots are based around picking up old plotlines from the TV shows, and all of those can be done cross-faction.

    As for your specific example
    -The "Triskelion Orbital Station" was mentioned in the remastered version of the TNG episode "Inheritance"
    - Lieutenant Commander Steve Tucker, a crew member on the ENT-D, was from Triskelion Prime
    -The DS9 episodes "Necessary Evil", and "Resurrection", mention that the Cardassians traded with Triskelion during the Bajoran Occupation, and that the Bajorans traded with the planet after they took control of DS9

    So yes, the brains seemingly kept their word, and the planet has become a place of trade with an orbital station, and the people there are free to leave, and even join Starfleet.
  • potasssiumpotasssium Member Posts: 1,222 Arc User
    jtoney3448 wrote: »
    When it comes down to it Ill go with the old 'Field of Dreams' quote. "If you build it they will come." If you invest little to nothing you get little to nothing back. You want KDF etc faction to be worth investing in well you have to build into it first.

    Quality over Quantity, most ships they only release Fed Side results in money I didn't spent. My KDF Allied Romulans actually have the most Admiralty card strangely, but I get the impression I am an outlier in that regard.
    Thanks for the Advanced Light Cruiser, Allied Escort Bundles, Jem-Hadar Light Battlecruiser, and Mek'leth
    New Content Wishlist
    T6 updates for the Kamarag & Vor'Cha
    Heavy Cruiser & a Movie Era Style AoY Utility Cruiser
    Dahar Master Jacket

  • warpangelwarpangel Member Posts: 8,003 Arc User
    brian334 wrote: »
    The main issue is that outside of one or two instances in the starter quests, you never get a chance to be a Klingon.

    Like them or not, agree with them or not, there is a canon portrayal of Klingons, and outside of the Bat'leth tournament you never get to act that way.

    Example: In the first incarnation of Hakeev's death scene I was given the choice to kill him or not to kill him. My Fed character let him live, my Klingon killed him. That choice was taken away because it was considered inappropriate. But it was a very Klingon thing to do, and there was absolutely no reason for the choice to be removed other than to conform to some Federation ideal about killing, after we've killed dozens of others to get to that point. (And yeah, you can stun with phasers, which we certainly do with our orbital bombardment optionals.)
    It's not about any Federation ideals, but of vengeance. The romulan Player Character has a massive personal score to settle with Hakeev, so they kill him themselves (regardless of faction alignment). Whereas the other origins are not as involved so they leave him to Obisek, who is.
  • patrickngopatrickngo Member Posts: 9,534 Arc User
    I see no reason why they can’t turn out content for the different factions or even given the width and breadth of the IP one off missions with small rewards. Even as simple as say investigation where the TOS left off and have the player check up on what has developed in the present time of sto. For instance what happened after “The Gamesters of Triskelion” Did the brains hold to there word and teach did they decide not to what happened to them?
    It can take nearly three months to make a single mission, so every mission you make for one faction means every other faction has to go even more months without anything. Also, most STO plots are based around picking up old plotlines from the TV shows, and all of those can be done cross-faction.

    As for your specific example
    -The "Triskelion Orbital Station" was mentioned in the remastered version of the TNG episode "Inheritance"
    - Lieutenant Commander Steve Tucker, a crew member on the ENT-D, was from Triskelion Prime
    -The DS9 episodes "Necessary Evil", and "Resurrection", mention that the Cardassians traded with Triskelion during the Bajoran Occupation, and that the Bajorans traded with the planet after they took control of DS9

    So yes, the brains seemingly kept their word, and the planet has become a place of trade with an orbital station, and the people there are free to leave, and even join Starfleet.

    hm, up to three months. reasonable limit. Let's see now, Legacy of Romulus had how many missions, covering both the Romulan-exclusive material, and the KDF tutorial that released two weeks later.

    If we go with 3 months per mission for the KDF tutorial, you've got just over 30 months from the point hte official 'stop work' was posted, and Legacy of Romulus.

    LoR allegedly began work eight months after Cryptic did the poll that was the official 'green light'.

    Now correct me if I'm wrong here, but the game went live in 2010, and Legacy of Romulus was mid-2013?

    so 36 months, assuming Cryptic worked on no other mission content but LoR, using your numbers.

    so let's compromise and call 3 months a 'Maximum' number-the longest it can take, likely requiring cut-scenes, voice work, new mechanics or special, non-standard features.

    Because the math doesn't add up otherwise-they'd have needed to start work on LoR with its mission count, added mechanics, new factional abilities etc. sometime in 2009, and worked on it exclusively for a big chunk of that (more than 3 years)-and they didn't do that.

    so 3 months is your upper limit. (Consistent with, for example, Agents of Yesterday's six missions, with their new mechanics, reworked visual style, and 'ghost' recording using Leonard Nimoy's voice saying lines Leonard Nimoy was dead before they were written).

    alright.

    consider we get ONE mission per quarter now, which is significantly less than Cryptic was dropping as late as 2013 (pre-Legacy even.)

    You know, this really does support the idea that Cryptic's fired (Separated Amicably, we swear!) too many people. the production rate we saw with LoR (which DID include Factional specific material, and not just for a single faction, they did it for TWO), suggests they could do what the person you're replying to suggests, but at a cost that Cryptic is unwilling to bear.

    which in turn supports MY thesis over yours.

    KDF: Not supported by Cryptic, because according to them, we're not 'Real' Star Trek fans.

    Well, TRIBBLE them, I'll play KDF anyway.

    "We are the Federation. Resistance is futile, we will add your biological and technological distinctiveness to our own."-Cryptic Studios

    Advocacy
    simple logic process:

    The body is filled with so much blood...It's always more than you think!! -Dr. Dinosaur

  • sirsitsalotsirsitsalot Member Posts: 1,553 Arc User
    In this game you are on a single narrative that don’t care about your choices in any way.

    This... Right... Here...

    This identifies why I have very little enthusiasm for this game in its current form, and why I feel like it has so much untapped potential. This is not a Massively Multiplayer Online ROLEPLAYING Game. It's really hard to roleplay a character when there is no branching in the narrative and whatever choices we can make either have zero meaning at the outset, or are rendered meaningless after a point.

    Yes. I know that Cryptic does not have the time nor the manpower to focus on a truly branching storyline that takes ones faction choice into account let alone give us a unique storyline for each faction. I lay the blame at PWE's feet. They are the ones not allocating enough fund to Cryptic to be able to do these things. And with the money they rake in, they can AFFORD to allocate those fund, but it would eat into their profits too much... Nevermind that a richer game experience would likely bring in even more players who would become payers.

    I brought this up once before, and I still have not changed my mind about it:

    The only way we will ever have "faction"-specific episodic content is if it is directly profitable. So I think that the only way that can happen is if they charge for that content. The core game's storyline would remain free and would continue to be faction-agnostic. Any new factions introduced would still have their free starter missions. But additional faction-specific content would require purchase at a decreasing Zen cost with every subsequent mission in the series with a seasonal bundle being the most cost effective.

    The real questions is whether we, who wish our factional choices were more than just glorified origin stories about how we all end up together in the current narrative, would be willing to pay for it to be so. If not, then we need to just shut up and accept the game as it is. because I do not see how to make it in PWE's best interest any other way than to make it directly profitable. And if they see no profit in it, they will not fund it. And so it will not be done. Like it or not, that is the honest truth from my point of view.
    I have no snarky remarks to make, at this time...
  • patrickngopatrickngo Member Posts: 9,534 Arc User
    In this game you are on a single narrative that don’t care about your choices in any way.

    This... Right... Here...

    This identifies why I have very little enthusiasm for this game in its current form, and why I feel like it has so much untapped potential. This is not a Massively Multiplayer Online ROLEPLAYING Game. It's really hard to roleplay a character when there is no branching in the narrative and whatever choices we can make either have zero meaning at the outset, or are rendered meaningless after a point.

    Yes. I know that Cryptic does not have the time nor the manpower to focus on a truly branching storyline that takes ones faction choice into account let alone give us a unique storyline for each faction. I lay the blame at PWE's feet. They are the ones not allocating enough fund to Cryptic to be able to do these things. And with the money they rake in, they can AFFORD to allocate those fund, but it would eat into their profits too much... Nevermind that a richer game experience would likely bring in even more players who would become payers.

    I brought this up once before, and I still have not changed my mind about it:

    The only way we will ever have "faction"-specific episodic content is if it is directly profitable. So I think that the only way that can happen is if they charge for that content. The core game's storyline would remain free and would continue to be faction-agnostic. Any new factions introduced would still have their free starter missions. But additional faction-specific content would require purchase at a decreasing Zen cost with every subsequent mission in the series with a seasonal bundle being the most cost effective.

    The real questions is whether we, who wish our factional choices were more than just glorified origin stories about how we all end up together in the current narrative, would be willing to pay for it to be so. If not, then we need to just shut up and accept the game as it is. because I do not see how to make it in PWE's best interest any other way than to make it directly profitable. And if they see no profit in it, they will not fund it. And so it will not be done. Like it or not, that is the honest truth from my point of view.

    Resources (Money) is certainly a large part of it, but there's another resource they're equally short of, and it's a sh*t-ton more difficult to procure than just 'money'. a big segment of the problem can be identified just by listening to the devs when they interview.

    There isn't a lot of adaptable creativity on the team. whoever it was, is probably one of the "Left on Amicable Terms" people-particularly not a lot of adaptive or actual creativity in the writing and story departments, which is why we have so many interchangeable baddies when it comes to the story, that they all kind of run together into a gray mush.

    Torg: is crazy and traitor.
    Hakeev: Is crazy, and a traitor.
    Doctor whatsizface; is an Undine, and he's crazy too.
    Gaul: was crazy, but rest his soul he's dead.
    Noye: was blitz-raging nuts.

    get the picture? the closest we got to sane villains were Sela (who's occasionally crazy), Obisek (Who flips sides and joins the 'good guys') and....well that's it, really. even the Borg Queen is nuts.

    they might've come closest to sane with the Voth, but with the Voth, they're just not all that bright.

    OH, right, T'ket: Crazier than a sack of crazy, and now, with the blog post, guess what? J'ula: Crazy and all mystical.

    ah, and there's "Mirror Leeta" who's both Crazy (Narcissistic personality disorder with a side order of delusion), and looks good in booty shorts.

    notice a pattern here? NONE of Cryptic's bad-guys are playing with a full deck, most of them, once you strip away the magical tech, aren't even particularly bright, much less brilliant.

    This is a writing psychology problem-the psychology of the writers can't handle the idea of an enemy who is against the chosen hero faction, who isn't absolutely out to lunch insane.

    This is a problem that happens a lot in environments where everyone shares the same bunker mentality-if you look at the propaganda from, say, Christian Conservatives they also tend to think that anyone who is opposed to them isn't 'wrong' but crazy and evil instead, a bit like how Democrats view Republicans (and all those midwesterners who voted for the new york billionaire.)

    When writers honestly can't grasp the thinking of their 'villains' they generally resort to "Self-destructively crazy" as a fallback to drive the plot, much as ideologues fall back on self-destructively-crazy to outright evil as a fallback for how they characterize their opponents in real life.

    Cryptic Studios is a monoculture of conflict-averse people-they all happen to be Star Trek fans, but you're more likely to find a diversity of opinions at an NRA event, than you are in the offices of Cryptic Studios.

    It's a demographics problem. These are people who absolutely can't comprehend how someone can be reasonable, and rational, and even likeable, while holding views opposite their own.

    This extends to the failed experiment of having multiple factions, because Cryptic's development team has only one, and it's homogenous.

    KDF: Not supported by Cryptic, because according to them, we're not 'Real' Star Trek fans.

    Well, TRIBBLE them, I'll play KDF anyway.

    "We are the Federation. Resistance is futile, we will add your biological and technological distinctiveness to our own."-Cryptic Studios

    Advocacy
    simple logic process:

    The body is filled with so much blood...It's always more than you think!! -Dr. Dinosaur

  • somtaawkharsomtaawkhar Member Posts: 5,045 Arc User
    edited December 2018
    This identifies why I have very little enthusiasm for this game in its current form, and why I feel like it has so much untapped potential. This is not a Massively Multiplayer Online ROLEPLAYING Game. It's really hard to roleplay a character when there is no branching in the narrative and whatever choices we can make either have zero meaning at the outset, or are rendered meaningless after a point.
    Roleplaying has nothing to do with making choices, especially in MMORPGs, which have always been defined by having few if any choices in the main narrative. Roleplaying, by definition, is about taking a character through a scenario given to you by a DM, or a GM.
    patrickngo wrote: »
    so 36 months, assuming Cryptic worked on no other mission content but LoR, using your numbers.
    This ignores the fact that its easier to produce a lot of similar missions, using similar texture sets, and characters, in a short amount of time then it is to make more missions one at a time.
    patrickngo wrote: »
    consider we get ONE mission per quarter now, which is significantly less than Cryptic was dropping as late as 2013 (pre-Legacy even.)
    This is entirely false.

    The year before LoR was infamous for being one of the biggest content droughts in the game, as was the timespan between LoR and Delta Rising.

    To compare
    For the year before Legacy of Romulus hit, we got
    -Nukara adventure zone
    -New Romulus adventure zone
    -Fleet Starbases
    A whole bunch of grindy time wasters

    Between LoR and DR we got
    -The Dyson Sphere battlezone
    -Three new story missions for the Solanae Dyson Sphere
    Again mostly grindy time waster

    By compare, between Delta Rising and Agents of Yesterday we got
    -Two missions to conclude the Delta Rising stroyline "What's Left Behind" and "Dust to Dust"
    -The eight mission Iconian War
    -Four missions in Future Proof
    For a total of 14 new missions, this on top of the typical waves of new ships, TFOs, and other things the previous releases got

    And between Agents of Yesterday and Victory is Life we got
    -The 8 missions in the New Frontiers arc
    -The Survivor mission
    For a total of nine new missions, this also on top of the typical waves of new ships, TFOs, and other things the previous releases got

    Cryptic objectively puts out more content, and faster, then they did in the year leading up to LoR, and between LoR and Delta Rising.
    Post edited by somtaawkhar on
  • somtaawkharsomtaawkhar Member Posts: 5,045 Arc User
    edited December 2018
    patrickngo wrote: »
    This is a writing psychology problem-the psychology of the writers can't handle the idea of an enemy who is against the chosen hero faction, who isn't absolutely out to lunch insane.
    Lets ignore
    -B'vat, who is heavily suggested to be fulfilling his role in time using knowledge of the future he gained ultimately from the Na'Kuhl. As his past self mentions, hes ashamed of what hes become in the future, but we still know he goes through with it after gaining that knowledge, seemingly because he knows he has to do it.
    -The Devidians, whose need to feed on mental energy is biological, and not their choice.
    -The 2800, who were just confused and didn't know the war was over.
    -The Breen, who just wanted to get some Preserver tech.
    -The Voth, who didn't even want to use the Omega Particles to kill anyone, they were just trying to create a barrier between them and the Borg since their war with the Borg was going badly. And that would be an admittedly useful strategy, if also a very devastating one.
    -The Undine, who were tricked by the Iconians into thinking we broke the pact they made with Janeway first, and who promptly left once this deception was uncovered. Even Undine Cooper, who you reductio ad absurdum as being crazy, was only continuing the war because he had learned of the Iconians and knew just how powerful they were, and was trying to save his species by getting on their good side.
    -The Iconians watched every race they had ever helped not only attack and destroy all of their worlds, but also kill the rest of their species to the point of basically extinction. Even then, they originally just planned to take the World Heart and rebuild elsewhere. It was only after even that was taken from them that they tried to conquer the galaxy, in order to prevent something like that from ever happening again. When given the ability to rebuild, they promptly left.
    -Noye literally had his wife and unborn child erased from existence by the Alliance's poor use of time alteration
    -The Sphere Builders had most of their race destroyed, and the rest forced into a sub-space realm due to the Alliance's poor use of time alteration
    -The Na'Kuhl had their sun snuffed out by an Alliance scientist's god tech that he couldn't keep in his pants.
    -The Tzenkethi, who were going to extremes in an attempt to stop the Hur'q, but were actually trying to save the galaxy as a whole, and only attacked an Alliance world because Odo tricked them into it. They also point out the obvious reasons why none of the other factions would have helped them, and thus, why they didn't seek help.

    You seem to have the bad notion that "anyone who disagrees with me is insane!", when that isn't what insanity is.

    The ones that could be defined as "insane" such as Hakeev, Torg, and Leeta, are all based on how those races/factions acted in the TV shows, and that's just Cryptic sticking to canon. Romulans in general, traitorous Klingons like Chang and Duras, and the Terran Empire are all shown to be like that is canon.
    patrickngo wrote: »
    even the Borg Queen is nuts
    The Borg Queen LITERALLY CANNOT BE INSANE BY ANY DEFINITION.

    All she does is follow a directive that was created by the original Borg, or the Borg's creators. She has no real free will to defy this overall mission of the Borg, all she can do is make alterations to the overall means by which the Borg achieve those goals.
    Post edited by somtaawkhar on
  • mustrumridcully0mustrumridcully0 Member Posts: 12,030 Arc User
    brian334 wrote: »
    Poor implementation of factions is not diversity.

    The factions should be rock-paper-scissors. (Or rock-paper-scissors-lizard-Spock.)
    That only makes sense in PvP, basically. In PvE, it wouldn't make much sense to base rock-paper-scissors in factions, because you would normally expect that a PvE mission is more likely to be undertake by members of the same faction.
    Rock-Paper-Scissor is usually something reserved for classes and builds.

    Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
  • mustrumridcully0mustrumridcully0 Member Posts: 12,030 Arc User
    jtoney3448 wrote: »
    When it comes down to it Ill go with the old 'Field of Dreams' quote. "If you build it they will come." If you invest little to nothing you get little to nothing back. You want KDF etc faction to be worth investing in well you have to build into it first.
    However, Cryptic actually has invested into the Klingons. There was a time where the KLingons had only PvP (and maybe Enemy signal Contacts and those Empire Defense missions?). Then they got access to STFs and, more importantly perhaps, go their own take on the Exploration System (except it wasn'T exploration, but similar principle). Then they got access to Featured episodes. Then they got a fully fledged starting storyline.
    But apparently, it was never enough to justify the investment, or they would have kept doing it. If you build, but not enough come, then at some point you have to admit defeat.

    Sure, fundamentally, maybe the KDF would have been btter off if Federation and KDF had the same stuff from the start. But it's too late for that. And even then it's not guaranteed, since we're talking about an IP where pretty much every show or movie focused on the Starfleet/Federation viewpoint. Cryptic didn't "build" that, but people might come for that, anyway.
    Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
  • somtaawkharsomtaawkhar Member Posts: 5,045 Arc User
    edited December 2018
    Sure, fundamentally, maybe the KDF would have been btter off if Federation and KDF had the same stuff from the start. But it's too late for that. And even then it's not guaranteed, since we're talking about an IP where pretty much every show or movie focused on the Starfleet/Federation viewpoint. Cryptic didn't "build" that, but people might come for that, anyway.
    Not to mention Romulans got
    -Almost an entire expansion dedicated to them
    -More faction specific story missions then either 2409 Feds, or KDF, which are generally considered some of the best story content in the game
    -An adventure zone and reputation focused around them
    -Equivalents for all but the last like two ship packs
    And still very few people play them.

    This isn't even particularly unique to STO. In pretty much every RPG, or MMORPG, human characters(or in this case Fed) dominate the landscape by a landslide because people play what they relate to, and people relate more to humans then aliens/other species since that is what they are.

    In Guild Wars 2 human characters make up 40% of the characters made, beating any other race by over twice over, and human characters are played nearly 3 times longer then other race.
    TdBFujL.png
  • sirsitsalotsirsitsalot Member Posts: 1,553 Arc User
    This identifies why I have very little enthusiasm for this game in its current form, and why I feel like it has so much untapped potential. This is not a Massively Multiplayer Online ROLEPLAYING Game. It's really hard to roleplay a character when there is no branching in the narrative and whatever choices we can make either have zero meaning at the outset, or are rendered meaningless after a point.
    Roleplaying has nothing to do with making choices, especially in MMORPGs, which have always been defined by having few if any choices in the main narrative. Roleplaying, by definition, is about taking a character through a scenario given to you by a DM, or a GM.

    I have played MMOs in which player choices and actions meant something, and could have an impact on more than just the player who made them. And while your definition of roleplaying is mostly accurate, a goond GM/DM, will take his/her players choices and actions into account, and adjusts the narrative of the scenario to reflect them. A bad DM/GM just goes, "You can't do that," and forces his/her players down a path not of their choosing. In STO's case, Cryptic is the DM/GM, and I am sorry, but they fall under the category of Bad GM/DM in my more than 30 years of roleplaying experience.

    Now you go ahead and say something clever that begins with "Ah yes, the bla bla bla statement."

    We'll wait...
    I have no snarky remarks to make, at this time...
  • somtaawkharsomtaawkhar Member Posts: 5,045 Arc User
    edited December 2018
    I have played MMOs in which player choices and actions meant something, .
    Such as? I'm the last 15 years of MMOs I've played the only game that came even close to this was Elder Scrolls Online, and even that was just throwaway lines of "I remember you helping us before!" if you did the quest in the previous zones or not.
  • azrael605azrael605 Member Posts: 8,677 Arc User
    > @sirsitsalot said:
    > somtaawkhar wrote: »
    >
    > sirsitsalot wrote: »
    >
    > This identifies why I have very little enthusiasm for this game in its current form, and why I feel like it has so much untapped potential. This is not a Massively Multiplayer Online ROLEPLAYING Game. It's really hard to roleplay a character when there is no branching in the narrative and whatever choices we can make either have zero meaning at the outset, or are rendered meaningless after a point.
    >
    >
    >
    > Roleplaying has nothing to do with making choices, especially in MMORPGs, which have always been defined by having few if any choices in the main narrative. Roleplaying, by definition, is about taking a character through a scenario given to you by a DM, or a GM.
    >
    >
    >
    >
    > I have played MMOs in which player choices and actions meant something, and could have an impact on more than just the player who made them. And while your definition of roleplaying is mostly accurate, a goond GM/DM, will take his/her players choices and actions into account, and adjusts the narrative of the scenario to reflect them. A bad DM/GM just goes, "You can't do that," and forces his/her players down a path not of their choosing. In STO's case, Cryptic is the DM/GM, and I am sorry, but they fall under the category of Bad GM/DM in my more than 30 years of roleplaying experience.
    >
    > Now you go ahead and say something clever that begins with "Ah yes, the bla bla bla statement."
    >
    > We'll wait...

    Quite frankly I've never played any MMO where player choices had any more effect than they do here in STO, non MMOs sure but not MMOs. As for the tabletop RPGs, I've been a player and GM in D&D, Rifts, DC Heroes, Traveller, GURPS, and many others for just as long as you claim and the GM who lets his players take over the narrative is not a good GM. I've played in such games, and even been the player taking over the game (as my Drow Vampire derailed 3 whole sessions buying, remodelling, and fortifying the tavern in town to be a home base and infiltrating the local thieves guild, the campaign was on the far side of the continent). Sure I had fun, no one else did, players or GM.
    #TASinSTO
    #IStandWithCBS
    Bring on Discovery season 2 and Age of Discovery.
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