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KDF disinvestment tangent

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  • where2r1where2r1 Member Posts: 5,866 Arc User
    Well, they are not Border Patrol, or Minute Men Militia. They are not Neighborhood Watch volunteers. They are not National Guard, where they work TDY.

    It must mean they are like The Salvation Army.
    "Spend your life doing strange things with weird people." -- UNK

    “Tell me and I forget. Teach me and I remember. Involve me and I learn.” -- Benjamin Franklin
  • sirsitsalotsirsitsalot Member Posts: 1,594 Arc User
    edited December 2018
    I think you know that I meant that the faction-CENTRIC stories be continued. I refuse to play stupid with you.
    That would require that there be something that would logically only be available to those factions to continue. And there isn't.

    With the defeat of the Romulan Star Empire, Tal Shiar, and Elachi, as well as finding ad establishing a new homeworld, there is little the Romulan Republic has to do that they couldn't, or wouldn't, ask for assistance from their Klingon and Federation allies. The same applies for the Klingons as well. The Klingons already defeated the Fek'Ihri, took down Torg, and uncovered the Romulan connection to Torg. What exactly do you think these factions would be doing that would exclude the others, who are their allies, from assisting?

    Oh, I don't know.... Maybe like ANYTHING that would make sense for an officer of the NRR, the KDF, the J'H, or the 23cUFP to be doing in their respective organizations? I am sure that anyone with half an imagination could come up with an entire series of stories, for each of these "fractions." When we start our Romulan character, there is a solid storyline running. it could have continued. but due to every Cryptic employee being needed for whatever was in the pipeline next, there was nobody to carry on the plot. But what does it matter? After all when you get done with the Romulan stuff, you can still play your Romulan doing UFP stuff or KDF stuff...

    It gets worse when you are Romulan who chose to join the KDF, because it ain't much longer before you end up doing the UFP stuff right there with the rest of the KDF players. See where this is going? PvP is not even supported anymore. When was the last time we had a single bit of new PvP content? That is why the UFP and KDF were unique factions to begin with. So there is no ongoing Klingon story content and no new PvP content. So what is the POINT of even having a KDF faction? If we are ALL going to end up doing the same stuff, no matter what faction, or origin story we choose, then why not just merge the fctions into the Galactic Alliance, let us simply pick the race we want to play, and then let the game gate us to the origin story based on that choice.

    Oh wait... I know... Because if the whirlwind of fecal matter it would stir up because it would mean the end of PvP… Can you imagine how social media would explode with all the "Cryptic slaps their players in the face" reactions. So PvP will never go away, but there is no indication that anything meaningful will be done with it, either. So the game will be stuck with a now meaningless faction system just to maintain the status quo.
    TFOs are playable content, so that is fine. New textures and models are not made by the mission content team, and there are enough assets in the game to create many years worth of mission content. This idea that every new mission MUST have all new assets is stupid. The shows this game are based on typically ran for years with the same exact sets. TNG got Ten Forward and DS9 got the wardroom, and VOY got astrometrics. Sure there were some other additions, but we are talking about sets that got added in a single season and were reused for every episode after that. And we were fine with it... Now of course, the art team should knock themselves out and release as many new assets as they can, but if the Foundry demonstrates anything well, it is that a little creativity goes a long way when it comes to reusing existing assets. So that is not a good enough excuse for the long delays between mission content releases. VA recording? You do know that the average length of time for recording a VA is maybe a couple of days, depending on how much dialogue they have. And they can go to a local recording studio to do it, with the producer having received the specific details on what is needed. It's not like they have the same sort of workload as they did when they were filming the shows. And that other stuff that goes into game development? It's called programming, which the mission content creators do not do...
    1. Needing to make new assets for a few new things isn't the same as saying they need new assets for everything every missions.

    So it's only a few things that need new assets. In the hands of competent artists, we're looking at a few hours per item. Maybe a few days for really complex stuff. I've watched YouTube videos of real time art development, and there are people who manage to turn out solid work within an hour's time. They have the tools, and the talent. But to be fair, in a corporate game development environment, It isn't just about creating the art. It's got to be approved. That means submitting what took a few hours to do and waiting days or weeks for someone to get back to you and tell you how many ways you got it wrong, with only vague suggestions of how to correct it, but you've already moved on to the fifth project, and the second, third and fourth ones haven't been rejected yet, and they want the corrected first project by the end of the day. So project 5 gets shelved while you rework the first one, while waiting for the go/no go on projects 2, 3 and 4. So you fix project 1 and submit it. Next day you get feedback on 2 and 3. 2's fine but 3 needs more vague improvements. 4 still hasn't been reviewed. You fix 3 and get back to work on 5. Then you are told that they changed their mind, and that the way you did 1 was better, but needs this this and this added, which actually requires reworking the model. So project 5 gets shelved again. You redo 1 and get told that 4 needs to be completely reworked because they decided to go a different direction. Before you get done with 5, the executives cancel the game and move you to another team and the process begins again...

    Sound about right?
    2. You seem to have a misplaced idea on how game development works. Generally speaking the people who make mission content are the programmers. There isn't an entire team of idea guys who just do nothing but sit around all day going "what about X!" writing and element design staff are also programmers in pretty much every game I have ever seen.

    And yet, we are told that the systems team is not the same as the content team. If you have to have a programmer to create new missions, then you're doing it wrong. For crying out loud, we have the foundry, which allows the "unwashed masses" to create mission content. What does CRYPTIC have? If their tools are not at least on par with the Foundry, then someone, somewhere, totally botched the whole approach. I can see needing a programmer to lay out new FEATURES and MECHANICS introduced by a season or expansion, as well as integrating support for them into the tools that the content devs use. But even without those modifications to the tools, nothing stops the content dev from using pre-existing tools and resources to create additional mission content.

    I do know that the best foundry missions are not just thrown together on the fly. I know that days, if not weeks, goes into their development. However, the authors in question are individuals who likely do not have a minimum of 8 hours per day to work on their "labor of love" projects. But Cryptic has a team environment with at a minimum 40 hours per week each. If you give ONE of them 8 paid hours per day to churn out new content in the vast pre-existing game universe, and that's all they do, I daresay that we could probably get at least 2 30+ minute missions per month. Stick the entry points for those missions in typically low-player-traffic areas of the game, and you potentially keep the entire game world relevant.
    Back when I played GW2, I seem to remember that their story arcs were more than just a few missions and done. I seem to remember them running for a while, with multiple events tied in and rolled out in measured, but regular intervals. Players will always consume content faster than it can be developed. A season of a star trek show typically ran 22-24 episodes, and they were released in staggered fashion over the course of 9 months, with roughly 3 months in between seasons. There is absolutely nothing that prevents an MMO from being able to do the same thing, except for executive decisions to the contrary.
    There is everything that prevents MMOs from doing that, which is way no MMO releases content that fast. Now even WoW is that quick on content. There is no means by which you will get a new mission or episode every week for 26 weeks straight simply due to the time it takes to make content for video games.

    As mentioned before, Guild Wars 2 has three teams working all the time on new releases, and new releases still only come out every 3 months, and take about 6-8 hours to beat. Generally speaking, it can take one of their teams 8 months to make 8 hours of player content, even for much larger game studios.

    So technically, a one-hour story could be produced in one month even when it involves new environments, art assets and voice acting. Is that what you are saying? A one-hour episode per month actually isn't that bad. It beats going several months with nothing new and a content release that can be blown through in a single day... And like I said, if you cut out everything but the creation of missions using only pre-existing features and assets, and you hire a person to handle one of each of the factions the game has, then there could be a new episode every month for every one of them, thus giving more of a reason to play one of those factions than just another origin story that leads into the Alliance content. That would still be there, but it would add value to the different faction characters.

    See, Cryptic has tunnel vision. They develop and release this or that, and then move forward to the next thing and NEVER really revisit what came before, unless what they are releasing now requires something to be retconned. But everything they release becomes part of the game as a whole, but as they move forward, all these different things might as well not even exist to them. They do to US, but not to them.

    That is sad...
    I have no snarky remarks to make, at this time...
  • patrickngopatrickngo Member Posts: 9,757 Arc User
    I think you know that I meant that the faction-CENTRIC stories be continued. I refuse to play stupid with you.
    That would require that there be something that would logically only be available to those factions to continue. And there isn't.

    With the defeat of the Romulan Star Empire, Tal Shiar, and Elachi, as well as finding ad establishing a new homeworld, there is little the Romulan Republic has to do that they couldn't, or wouldn't, ask for assistance from their Klingon and Federation allies. The same applies for the Klingons as well. The Klingons already defeated the Fek'Ihri, took down Torg, and uncovered the Romulan connection to Torg. What exactly do you think these factions would be doing that would exclude the others, who are their allies, from assisting?

    Oh, I don't know.... Maybe like ANYTHING that would make sense for an officer of the NRR, the KDF, the J'H, or the 23cUFP to be doing in their respective organizations? I am sure that anyone with half an imagination could come up with an entire series of stories, for each of these "fractions." When we start our Romulan character, there is a solid storyline running. it could have continued. but due to every Cryptic employee being needed for whatever was in the pipeline next, there was nobody to carry on the plot. But what does it matter? After all when you get done with the Romulan stuff, you can still play your Romulan doing UFP stuff or KDF stuff...

    It gets worse when you are Romulan who chose to join the KDF, because it ain't much longer before you end up doing the UFP stuff right there with the rest of the KDF players. See where this is going? PvP is not even supported anymore. When was the last time we had a single bit of new PvP content? That is why the UFP and KDF were unique factions to begin with. So there is no ongoing Klingon story content and no new PvP content. So what is the POINT of even having a KDF faction? If we are ALL going to end up doing the same stuff, no matter what faction, or origin story we choose, then why not just merge the fctions into the Galactic Alliance, let us simply pick the race we want to play, and then let the game gate us to the origin story based on that choice.

    Oh wait... I know... Because if the whirlwind of fecal matter it would stir up because it would mean the end of PvP… Can you imagine how social media would explode with all the "Cryptic slaps their players in the face" reactions. So PvP will never go away, but there is no indication that anything meaningful will be done with it, either. So the game will be stuck with a now meaningless faction system just to maintain the status quo.
    TFOs are playable content, so that is fine. New textures and models are not made by the mission content team, and there are enough assets in the game to create many years worth of mission content. This idea that every new mission MUST have all new assets is stupid. The shows this game are based on typically ran for years with the same exact sets. TNG got Ten Forward and DS9 got the wardroom, and VOY got astrometrics. Sure there were some other additions, but we are talking about sets that got added in a single season and were reused for every episode after that. And we were fine with it... Now of course, the art team should knock themselves out and release as many new assets as they can, but if the Foundry demonstrates anything well, it is that a little creativity goes a long way when it comes to reusing existing assets. So that is not a good enough excuse for the long delays between mission content releases. VA recording? You do know that the average length of time for recording a VA is maybe a couple of days, depending on how much dialogue they have. And they can go to a local recording studio to do it, with the producer having received the specific details on what is needed. It's not like they have the same sort of workload as they did when they were filming the shows. And that other stuff that goes into game development? It's called programming, which the mission content creators do not do...
    1. Needing to make new assets for a few new things isn't the same as saying they need new assets for everything every missions.

    So it's only a few things that need new assets. In the hands of competent artists, we're looking at a few hours per item. Maybe a few days for really complex stuff. I've watched YouTube videos of real time art development, and there are people who manage to turn out solid work within an hour's time. They have the tools, and the talent. But to be fair, in a corporate game development environment, It isn't just about creating the art. It's got to be approved. That means submitting what took a few hours to do and waiting days or weeks for someone to get back to you and tell you how many ways you got it wrong, with only vague suggestions of how to correct it, but you've already moved on to the fifth project, and the second, third and fourth ones haven't been rejected yet, and they want the corrected first project by the end of the day. So project 5 gets shelved while you rework the first one, while waiting for the go/no go on projects 2, 3 and 4. So you fix project 1 and submit it. Next day you get feedback on 2 and 3. 2's fine but 3 needs more vague improvements. 4 still hasn't been reviewed. You fix 3 and get back to work on 5. Then you are told that they changed their mind, and that the way you did 1 was better, but needs this this and this added, which actually requires reworking the model. So project 5 gets shelved again. You redo 1 and get told that 4 needs to be completely reworked because they decided to go a different direction. Before you get done with 5, the executives cancel the game and move you to another team and the process begins again...

    Sound about right?
    2. You seem to have a misplaced idea on how game development works. Generally speaking the people who make mission content are the programmers. There isn't an entire team of idea guys who just do nothing but sit around all day going "what about X!" writing and element design staff are also programmers in pretty much every game I have ever seen.

    And yet, we are told that the systems team is not the same as the content team. If you have to have a programmer to create new missions, then you're doing it wrong. For crying out loud, we have the foundry, which allows the "unwashed masses" to create mission content. What does CRYPTIC have? If their tools are not at least on par with the Foundry, then someone, somewhere, totally botched the whole approach. I can see needing a programmer to lay out new FEATURES and MECHANICS introduced by a season or expansion, as well as integrating support for them into the tools that the content devs use. But even without those modifications to the tools, nothing stops the content dev from using pre-existing tools and resources to create additional mission content.

    I do know that the best foundry missions are not just thrown together on the fly. I know that days, if not weeks, goes into their development. However, the authors in question are individuals who likely do not have a minimum of 8 hours per day to work on their "labor of love" projects. But Cryptic has a team environment with at a minimum 40 hours per week each. If you give ONE of them 8 paid hours per day to churn out new content in the vast pre-existing game universe, and that's all they do, I daresay that we could probably get at least 2 30+ minute missions per month. Stick the entry points for those missions in typically low-player-traffic areas of the game, and you potentially keep the entire game world relevant.
    Back when I played GW2, I seem to remember that their story arcs were more than just a few missions and done. I seem to remember them running for a while, with multiple events tied in and rolled out in measured, but regular intervals. Players will always consume content faster than it can be developed. A season of a star trek show typically ran 22-24 episodes, and they were released in staggered fashion over the course of 9 months, with roughly 3 months in between seasons. There is absolutely nothing that prevents an MMO from being able to do the same thing, except for executive decisions to the contrary.
    There is everything that prevents MMOs from doing that, which is way no MMO releases content that fast. Now even WoW is that quick on content. There is no means by which you will get a new mission or episode every week for 26 weeks straight simply due to the time it takes to make content for video games.

    As mentioned before, Guild Wars 2 has three teams working all the time on new releases, and new releases still only come out every 3 months, and take about 6-8 hours to beat. Generally speaking, it can take one of their teams 8 months to make 8 hours of player content, even for much larger game studios.

    So technically, a one-hour story could be produced in one month even when it involves new environments, art assets and voice acting. Is that what you are saying? A one-hour episode per month actually isn't that bad. It beats going several months with nothing new and a content release that can be blown through in a single day... And like I said, if you cut out everything but the creation of missions using only pre-existing features and assets, and you hire a person to handle one of each of the factions the game has, then there could be a new episode every month for every one of them, thus giving more of a reason to play one of those factions than just another origin story that leads into the Alliance content. That would still be there, but it would add value to the different faction characters.

    See, Cryptic has tunnel vision. They develop and release this or that, and then move forward to the next thing and NEVER really revisit what came before, unless what they are releasing now requires something to be retconned. But everything they release becomes part of the game as a whole, but as they move forward, all these different things might as well not even exist to them. They do to US, but not to them.

    That is sad...

    Something that's been mentioned before; Cryptic is a small studio.

    They have a very minimal number of bodies to put on anything, and everything has to be accepted by CBS or it doesn't get in.

    Further, everything has to be acceptable to PWE from a 'return on man-hours' position, or it doesn't get in.

    That means they probably spend a lot of time in meetings.

    Further complicating things, is that some of that non-meeting time has to be spent adapting content from PC to Consoles. (multiple consoles).

  • somtaawkharsomtaawkhar Member Posts: 5,321 Arc User
    edited December 2018
    Oh, I don't know.... Maybe like ANYTHING that would make sense for an officer of the NRR, the KDF, the J'H, or the 23cUFP to be doing in their respective organizations? I am sure that anyone with half an imagination could come up with an entire series of stories, for each of these "fractions." When we start our Romulan character, there is a solid storyline running. it could have continued. but due to every Cryptic employee being needed for whatever was in the pipeline next, there was nobody to carry on the plot. But what does it matter? After all when you get done with the Romulan stuff, you can still play your Romulan doing UFP stuff or KDF stuff...
    Ahh yes, the ever classic "I can't think of anything to support my point, but someone else probably could!" non-argument. If you are going to suggest something you should be able to provide examples of situations that would make that argument viable. If anyone with half an imagination could do it, why can't you when asked?

    This ignoring that you ARE doing things that a RR, KDF, J'H, officer would be doing in their respective organizations as it stands. These things just so happen to be things OTHER organizations would be doing as well, thus, the cross-faction content. So, as originally pointed out, your faction story IS being progressed with cross-faction content.
    So what is the POINT of even having a KDF faction? If we are ALL going to end up doing the same stuff, no matter what faction, or origin story we choose, then why not just merge the fctions into the Galactic Alliance, let us simply pick the race we want to play, and then let the game gate us to the origin story based on that choice.
    Same reason most games like Guild Wars 2 let you pick unique races, which have unique starting quests, but later all merge down into the same content. At game start it makes very little sense that all the factions/races are untied against a common enemy(this being something that happens over the course of the narrative), so having a singular start for everyone doesn't make sense. This is true of even STO where the KDF and Federation don't even begin limit cease fire agreements until the Borg arc, and don't become full allies until the end of the Dyson Sphere arc.
    In the hands of competent artists, we're looking at a few hours per item.
    So you have never payed attention to video game development were final art lock for games can happen as soon as just a month or two before release while most of the rest of the game is already done?
    For crying out loud, we have the foundry, which allows the "unwashed masses" to create mission content. What does CRYPTIC have?
    Foundry missions that are, at their very best, only slightly better then “Divide et Impera”. Creating quality content is exceedingly more difficult then anything a foundry author has put out.

    I am reminded of the "New California" mod for Fallout New Vegas, which took 3 times longer then the actual game took to make, despite the fact they already had all the textures, scripting, models and animations from the base game to work with, and the mod is generally considered to be pretty terrible, has about 1/20th the content the original game did, and is more buggy then sin. Modders, and Foundry authors, aren't very good at these things, even when given massive amounts of time.
    So technically, a one-hour story could be produced in one month even when it involves new environments, art assets and voice acting. Is that what you are saying?
    Sure, if they never had people working on new ships, TFOs, new fleet holdings, reputations, admiralty tracts, or anything else. Which is why things like a release for Guild Wars 2 takes so long, despite being able to be blown through in a few hours.
    and like I said, if you cut out everything but the creation of missions using only pre-existing features and assets, and you hire a person to handle one of each of the factions the game has, then there could be a new episode every month for every one of them
    And those missions would generally be pretty terrible, about on par with an old, pre-revamp, Cardassian arc missions, or the Fed only patrols. Flooding the game with cheap, easy to make, content is not something people want.
    See, Cryptic has tunnel vision. They develop and release this or that, and then move forward to the next thing and NEVER really revisit what came before
    That is generally how narratives work. You don't see the Fellowship of the Ring go back to the Shire constantly throughout the trilogy because they are constantly moving forward to reach the damn volcano so they can destroy the Ring.

    Star Trek Online itself is pretty good about wrapping up its narratives so that there isn't anything to do back to, even if it takes them awhile to reach that point like with Taris, Sela, and Torg.
  • patrickngopatrickngo Member Posts: 9,757 Arc User
    Oh, I don't know.... Maybe like ANYTHING that would make sense for an officer of the NRR, the KDF, the J'H, or the 23cUFP to be doing in their respective organizations? I am sure that anyone with half an imagination could come up with an entire series of stories, for each of these "fractions." When we start our Romulan character, there is a solid storyline running. it could have continued. but due to every Cryptic employee being needed for whatever was in the pipeline next, there was nobody to carry on the plot. But what does it matter? After all when you get done with the Romulan stuff, you can still play your Romulan doing UFP stuff or KDF stuff...
    Ahh yes, the ever classic "I can't think of anything to support my point, but someone else probably could!" non-argument. If you are going to suggest something you should be able to provide examples of situations that would make that argument viable. If anyone with half an imagination could do it, why can't you when asked?

    This ignoring that you ARE doing things that a RR, KDF, J'H, officer would be doing in their respective organizations as it stands. These things just so happen to be things OTHER organizations would be doing as well, thus, the cross-faction content. So, as originally pointed out, your faction story IS being progressed with cross-faction content.
    So what is the POINT of even having a KDF faction? If we are ALL going to end up doing the same stuff, no matter what faction, or origin story we choose, then why not just merge the fctions into the Galactic Alliance, let us simply pick the race we want to play, and then let the game gate us to the origin story based on that choice.
    Same reason most games like Guild Wars 2 let you pick unique races, which have unique starting quests, but later all merge down into the same content. At game start it makes very little sense that all the factions/races are untied against a common enemy(this being something that happens over the course of the narrative), so having a singular start for everyone doesn't make sense. This is true of even STO where the KDF and Federation don't even begin limit cease fire agreements until the Borg arc, and don't become full allies until the end of the Dyson Sphere arc.
    In the hands of competent artists, we're looking at a few hours per item.
    So you have never payed attention to video game development were final art lock for games can happen as soon as just a month or two before release while most of the rest of the game is already done?
    For crying out loud, we have the foundry, which allows the "unwashed masses" to create mission content. What does CRYPTIC have?
    Foundry missions that are, at their very best, only slightly better then “Divide et Impera”. Creating quality content is exceedingly more difficult then anything a foundry author has put out.

    I am reminded of the "New California" mod for Fallout New Vegas, which took 3 times longer then the actual game took to make, despite the fact they already had all the textures, scripting, models and animations from the base game to work with, and the mod is generally considered to be pretty terrible, has about 1/20th the content the original game did, and is more buggy then sin. Modders, and Foundry authors, aren't very good at these things, even when given massive amounts of time.
    So technically, a one-hour story could be produced in one month even when it involves new environments, art assets and voice acting. Is that what you are saying?
    Sure, if they never had people working on new ships, TFOs, new fleet holdings, reputations, admiralty tracts, or anything else. Which is why things like a release for Guild Wars 2 takes so long, despite being able to be blown through in a few hours.
    and like I said, if you cut out everything but the creation of missions using only pre-existing features and assets, and you hire a person to handle one of each of the factions the game has, then there could be a new episode every month for every one of them
    And those missions would generally be pretty terrible, about on par with an old, pre-revamp, Cardassian arc missions, or the Fed only patrols. Flooding the game with cheap, easy to make, content is not something people want.
    See, Cryptic has tunnel vision. They develop and release this or that, and then move forward to the next thing and NEVER really revisit what came before
    That is generally how narratives work. You don't see the Fellowship of the Ring go back to the Shire constantly throughout the trilogy because they are constantly moving forward to reach the damn volcano so they can destroy the Ring.

    Star Trek Online itself is pretty good about wrapping up its narratives so that there isn't anything to do back to, even if it takes them awhile to reach that point like with Taris, Sela, and Torg.

    Okay, Som, we get that you're completely and totally satisified with everything Cryptic does, and that you feel it's all perfect, and must be defended from the deplorables who dare to criticize the state of the game, the condition of gameplay, the story (such as it is), etc. etc.

    all of which really just shows that you don't get what people are saying here, likely because of that in-built bias that comes from being a fan of the developer and the IP, as opposed to playing the game as a gamer.

    When we're talking about the quality of the game, you keep bringing up other games, as if imitating what someone else is doing to cut costs, is a sign of quality and wholly satisfactory.

    the homogenizing of content you are so enamoured with wrt Guild Wars 2 was done specifically to cut costs for the developer. When you bring up other IP's and their strategies as examples of 'good' development, those, too, are more about reducing overhead and exploiting an established audience base, not about delivering a better player experience, nor a more varied and engaging experience, but instead creating something that is one step removed from maintenance mode, so the developer can focus on something they're actually interested in, or believe will make them more money.

    notably, all those games you trot out? they're so interchangeable as to be boring. They don't have anything to offer, beyond what is already familiar, and their player populations are there by habit, not real enthusiasm.

    Kinda like here, where the carefully cultivated audience is here by habituation, only it's habituation to being a fan of Star Trek.

    all of your arguments boil down to mediocrity=good, Som, that following the apparent industry trend in the least-risky-way-possible is a formula for success...

    and maybe it is. STO has survived a long, long time in the gaming marketplace by imitating the trends of better, more popular, wider-played properties by other studios who produce a tighter, less buggy and more varied experience while following those same formulas.

    it doesn't mean you're right.

    Here's the counter-argument: judge the game as if you never ever Heard of Star Trek, were never a fan, and want something engaging, interesting, and exciting.

    Because that's the cut-down between a shovelware game that exploits an existing fanbase, and something that becomes special of it's own account and has loyal, as opposed to habituated, fans.

    There aer ways this game could have broken the mold. There's potential in the mechanics, it's got a deep and broad IP to draw from, and a guaranteed fanbase. it Began with a really good foundation for producing something that could've been an iconic experience all its own.

    But they chose to imitate the cost-cutting and social-experiments-in-habituation instead, focusing on Metrics and an ever shrinking circle of "majority" players, until you've got a population that is for want of a better term, hyperspecialized and getting bored, while at the same time being habituated to what we used to call in pen&paper gaming "Monty Haul" DM'ing.

    It all goes back to Geko's statement in 2012: "KDF is unprofitable"-and when you consider how many outfits found the opposite, including outfits that don't sell 'toys' normally, that's a pretty good condemnation of the guy in marketing making the statement. Poor quality goods made for the wrong market don't sell. 'kay? Geko made that statement after the fifty-dollar Bortasque bundle flopped hard.

    It was, incidentally, also the first bundle of ships to be a stat-clone released at the same time as a bundle of Fed ships-of course it's going to flop hard. especially when it released with bugged consoles, borderline unplayable stats, and at a high price-point. the only plus it had, was a bridge map that must've taken weeks to finish detailing.

    Do you remember what happened next? KDF didn't get another C-store release until the Dyson, and all factional development on them stopped until two weeks after Legacy of Romulus dropped.

    and that content was, per Cryptic's own statements, done off the clock, in people's free time, by specific people on staff, for no money.

    nOw, I suppose you could argue and claim that the people who work on the game are a bunch of liars, but why? why would they lie about this? (I bring that up because you've made that exact claim in the past-aka that they were lying about how long it took to develop Legacy of Romulus when AOY dropped.)

    In a sense, you remind me of Baghdad Bob, only I would hope that any astroturfers Cryptic or PWE might hire, would have more familiarity with the reality the rest of us are seeing.







  • sirsitsalotsirsitsalot Member Posts: 1,594 Arc User
    The real point I am trying to make here is that it doesn't really matter. IF PWE cared more about building a long-term virtual world with their MMOs than they do about nickeling and diming everything, then Cryptic would have a large enough staff to do what I am suggesting. I've said it from the beginning: Star Trek is too large scale of an IP for a small-scale development team to be able to achieve full potential with. Atari/Ifogrames was bankrupt and couldn't afford to properly fund Cryptic. PWE can afford it, but won't. So we are stuck with THIS game.

    A game with so much potential, that it will never achieve because the people in charge only care about maximum short term gain. This thread is about the disinvestment of the KDF. But the KDF is only one part that Cryptic is disinvested in. Like I said. Because of their limited human resources, they have tunnel vision, and once done with something, that's it. It is what it is. Forever. Even though it sits there with potential to be more than it is. I am not faulting them for it. They have to play the hand they were dealt just like we do, while the house, PWE, always wins.

    Look. I already know that it is how it's going to be. I don't really expect it to be different. I HOPE, and WISH, it would, but I KNOW it won't.
    I have no snarky remarks to make, at this time...
  • warpangelwarpangel Member Posts: 8,042 Arc User
    edited December 2018
    patrickngo wrote: »
    warpangel wrote: »
    patrickngo wrote: »
    patrickngo wrote: »
    Every mission, every situation, every storyline, you're doing things exactly the way a Starfleet officer has to do them. Borrowing a used, second-hand cloaking device? Having to run uncloaked on a covert operation? none of this is a "Klingon" storyline, it's a FEDERATION story where KDF players are 'permitted to cosplay being Starfleet officers'.

    TRIBBLE, even in ground situations, you really expect a KDF General Officer to accept being lectured on the Prime Directive by a mouthy, junior, foreign, officer (Kobali ground)? without offering so much as a rebuke? This is akin to expecting a Hordie to stand there and accept being lectured about the wonders of the Alliance and the superiority of humans, in that Blizzard property.
    This argument only works if you stereotype all Klingons into acting exactly the same way, and their all idiotically headstrong warriors who can't even take someone saying something they disagree with without getting snippy. Which is entirely untrue.

    Your entire argument of "it isn't Klingon" is "its not my one dimensional and utterly wrong view of how Klingons should act!"

    Actually, Som, you're wrong-even in real life, a junior officer mouthing off their political opinions at a General Officer in a disrespectful tone (as happens in the Kobali mission) would face consequences to their career, and that includes "Relief for cause".

    It's called "Conduct Unbecoming", particularly as said mouthing off wasn't invited by said General Officer.

    so no, it's not stereotyping, it's a matter of professionalism in a joint operations environment, but the player isn't even given the option of rebuking verbally, in spite of being an officer from a service that employs, per canon, "Corporeal Correction" being addressed (Uninvited) in a tone (Disrespectful) by a significantly lower ranking officer in a combat zone.
    Actually, the only thing Captain Prime Directive says to the Player Character is "I see" after you tell her of the stasis pods. Her lectures are addressed to Captain Kim.

    Of course, it still would've been most appropriate to allow us a chance to tell her off anyway. Regardless of your origin. She is, after all, badly misapplying the Prime Directive so even a Starfleet Admiral should be correcting her.

    Point being, her conduct was unprofessional, but it's even MORE inappropriate with a Klingon general rather than a Starfleet Admiral, as the KDF isn't a "Civilian" organization (whatever that's supposed to mean), and it's representative of a society that is not even rooted in 'classical' liberal ideals (Like free speech or the Prime Directive). But the lack of an option to tell her to shut up, or to 'dress her down' is particularly glaring here, and reflects on the whole situation as being formulated from the perspective that everyone's character is either a starfleet officer, or wants to be one so badly they'd be uninterested and unwilling to address what is a blatant violation of disciplined conduct. See, it's a conversation between your character, and Harry Kim, the interjection was not invited, the officer was not consulted, their opinion was not solicited, and was neither appropriate, nor invited.
    The conversation The Annoying One interrupts is between the kobali general and Harry Kim. The player character speaks their only line responding to her question about the situation, to which she responds "I see," and proceeds to berate Kim for his opinions. Kim suggests they continue the discussion in private.

    I saw it as everyone's character being a typically bland and featureless Standard Videogame Protagonist. It's not formulated from the perspective of a Starfleet officer, whom I would expect to have some opinion on the matter (just like every time the PD comes up in canon) even if they didn't recognize the abuse of the Prime Directive for what it is, but rather of someone who's just there to shoot the red dots and couldn't care less about the politics.

    In fact, of all the origins that exist in the game, the only one I believe the scene would be appropriate for is the jem'hadar, for whom "shut up and shoot what the 'gods' tell you to" is a natural behavior. Ironically, they can only do the old missions as simulations.
  • somtaawkharsomtaawkhar Member Posts: 5,321 Arc User
    edited December 2018
    patrickngo wrote: »
    Okay, Som, we get that you're completely and totally satisified with everything Cryptic does, and that you feel it's all perfect, and must be defended from the deplorables who dare to criticize the state of the game, the condition of gameplay, the story (such as it is), etc. etc.
    Ahh yes the "I don't actually have any sort of rebuttal to the points made so I am just going to string a series of straw mans and ad hominems together" response.
    patrickngo wrote: »
    When we're talking about the quality of the game, you keep bringing up other games, as if imitating what someone else is doing to cut costs, is a sign of quality and wholly satisfactory.
    And this is where your argument is fundamentally wrong. Developers don't do it to cut costs, they do it because it isn't sustainable no matter the team size or money thrown into a game.

    Not even World of Warcraft, the largest and most successful MMORPG ever made, has been able to make a game with totally separate faction storylines from beginning to end, with most expansions having the content/quests shared between Alliance and Horde. The most recent expansion, one that did try to give each side their own content, is generally seen as one of the worst the game has had. Neither side got particularly great content, and each side instead got more grind then normal to account for the fact each one of them basically got half an expansion in this expansion, since the other half of the expansion was a half an expansion for the other team.

    You can whine, kick, scream, stomp, and spout any of the typical arguments you make
    -The developers don't care
    -The developers are lazy
    -The developers are incompetent
    -The team is too small
    -PWE isn't giving them enough money
    -They are "adverse" to that kind of gameplay
    But that wont change the fundamental fact that even if they had the development team size and budget of WoW, they still wouldn't be able to do it, because it simply isn't doable in the first place.

    It has nothing to do with accepting "mediocre" content. In fact, what you suggest, that teams try to keep faction/racial storylines separate, has always resulted in more mediocre content in games then if the devs just poured into one better storyline since each separate storyline gets less work/polish compared to the singular storyline. So, if anything, YOU are the one asking for mediocre content. But rather, it has to do with an understanding of fundamental limitations of game development that have been true since CRPGs were first made.

    You may not like it, but reality wont just rewrite itself because of it.
    patrickngo wrote: »
    not about delivering a better player experience, nor a more varied and engaging experience,
    This is also fundamentally wrong. Player experience and variable gameplay always goes down when you try to keep races/factions separate because, instead of being able to put more time into the making the singular, cross-faction, missions more engaging, with various things to do, now the teams are only able to put the bare minimum effort into the missions since they are having to make basically three different missions entirely, and thus, don't have to time to make more extra things into those missions to make them anything more then something like pre-revamp Romulan or Cardassian arc missions.

    You don't get MORE out of something when you create a system where LESS people can work on any one thing. That is just basic math.
  • markhawkmanmarkhawkman Member Posts: 33,327 Arc User
    tigeraries wrote: »
    warpangel wrote: »
    Kind of a self-fulfilling prophecy: Convince everyone that Klingon is a bad choice, because there's not enough players and not enough dev support; People then don't choose Klingon and it goes round and round.
    But it's not a prophecy at all, it's the current state of the game. There are significantly less players and less dev support on KDF. What else are we supposed to say, lie to new players about it?
    Lie? playing KDF IS FUN! Telling newbies otherwise IS lying!!!!
    Fun is subjective. Game is written from a Fed point of view. You have a KDF faction with a bunch of races that would never act like a Klingon or Fed but they mouth off all these lines due to storyline... it sucks so much.
    Klingon or KDF? Because the "rawr! Honor! Glory! Kahless!" sort of thing only applies to Klingons, and not other members of the KDF.
    dcu98st-a75dadb4-8205-45c0-bead-c5d8a75a398e.png
    slarggallery_by_marhawkman_dchtyd1-fullview.jpg
    patrickngo wrote: »
    So no, don't try to claim that whitewash is "The Klingon Story". it's not. It's garbage.
    It's the story of how the Klingons grow as a society and become better people. :D
    -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
    My character Tsin'xing
    Costume_marhawkman_Tsin%27xing_CC_Comic_Page_Blue_488916968.jpg
  • somtaawkharsomtaawkhar Member Posts: 5,321 Arc User
    edited December 2018
    It's the story of how the Klingons grow as a society and become better people. :D
    This is something even the Trek shows bring up as well.

    The Klingon lawyer Kolos mentions to Archer in the episode "Judgement" that Klingon culture used to not be dominated by the warrior caste, and that Klingons used to have an appreciation for things like scientists, lawyers, artists, etc., and that it was only in his lifetime that this warrior caste took over and started pushing the idea that honor could only be achieved in bloody combat. We see the end result of this in Discovery where the Klingon's have let their culture dip so far they are bordering on self destruction, and its only because of T'Kuvma, and L'rell, that this is avoided.

    Now, L'rell couldn't just undo over 100 years of cultural decay, and this seemingly leads into TOS where we see the Klingons as some sort of military police state where every Klingon is watched at all times by the state. Which makes sense if your leader is in power because they are holding everyone hostage with a bomb. the Klingons remain this way until the Praxis incident, which forces their hand in accepting aid from the Federation, and forces them to accept the idea that they don't HAVE to kill everything to gain glory.

    This leads to the TNG/DS9/VOY era Klingons who are much more like the ENT era Klingons, with a bit more focus on honor then the ENT era Klingons were. However, this is still a Klingon Empire ruled by an overzealous warrior caste who sees only glory and honor in combat, and many TNG/DS9 episodes have Klingons realize this really just isn't working out long term for them.

    While there has been no post VOY series yet to show how the Klingons continue to develop, the planned "Star Trek: Federation" series had the Klingons developing into a less warlike, and more mystical society. while they don't go much further into detail then that, I would presume they become something like warrior monks, with more focus on the monk part then the warrior part.

    Star Trek has made it clear that this warrior nation was not only not how Klingon culture originally was, but also, is something that can't sustain them. That doesn't mean they give up seeking honor or glory, but that it wont come in the form of bloody conquest as they are used too.
  • sirsitsalotsirsitsalot Member Posts: 1,594 Arc User
    It's the story of how the Klingons grow as a society and become better people. :D
    This is something even the Trek shows bring up as well.

    The Klingon lawyer Kolos mentions to Archer in the episode "Judgement" that Klingon culture used to not be dominated by the warrior caste, and that Klingons used to have an appreciation for things like scientists, lawyers, artists, etc., and that it was only in his lifetime that this warrior caste took over and started pushing the idea that honor could only be achieved in bloody combat. We see the end result of this in Discovery where the Klingon's have let their culture dip so far they are bordering on self destruction, and its only because of T'Kuvma, and L'rell, that this is avoided.

    Now, L'rell couldn't just undo over 100 years of cultural decay, and this seemingly leads into TOS where we see the Klingons as some sort of military police state where every Klingon is watched at all times by the state. Which makes sense if your leader is in power because they are holding everyone hostage with a bomb. the Klingons remain this way until the Praxis incident, which forces their hand in accepting aid from the Federation, and forces them to accept the idea that they don't HAVE to kill everything to gain glory.

    This leads to the TNG/DS9/VOY era Klingons who are much more like the ENT era Klingons, with a bit more focus on honor then the ENT era Klingons were. However, this is still a Klingon Empire ruled by an overzealous warrior caste who sees only glory and honor in combat, and many TNG/DS9 episodes have Klingons realize this really just isn't working out long term for them.

    While there has been no post VOY series yet to show how the Klingons continue to develop, the planned "Star Trek: Federation" series had the Klingons developing into a less warlike, and more mystical society. while they don't go much further into detail then that, I would presume they become something like warrior monks, with more focus on the monk part then the warrior part.

    Star Trek has made it clear that this warrior nation was not only not how Klingon culture originally was, but also, is something that can't sustain them. That doesn't mean they give up seeking honor or glory, but that it wont come in the form of bloody conquest as they are used too.

    That right there is a solid Klingon-centric story that I would love to experience, playing a Klingon as part of the Klingon Empire, with a unique Klingon point of view, independent of Federation involvement.
    I have no snarky remarks to make, at this time...
  • somtaawkharsomtaawkhar Member Posts: 5,321 Arc User
    edited December 2018
    That right there is a solid Klingon-centric story that I would love to experience, playing a Klingon as part of the Klingon Empire, with a unique Klingon point of view, independent of Federation involvement.
    We are already seeing it in-game with the Klingons partaking in more cooperative assignments with the Alliance, generally not being as mindlessly bloodthristy with war, and accepting more diplomatic options. Things that they wouldn't have normally even considered in the past.

    Change within the Klingon Empire will not come solely by Klingon involvement alone, but by their interaction with other species, and needing to alter their current behavior to better suit interaction with people beyond themselves. Klingons trying to deal with things by themselves is what led to the near destruction of the Empire in T'Kuvma's time to begin with. Doing that again will not fix anything for the better.

    I suspect the current Discovery arc, with J'Ula coming to 2410, and possibly rallying other hostile elements within the Empire to start a civil war scenario, will be the big tipping point for the Klingons to move in that direction in STO's timeline. With the most hostile and bloodthirsty elements being on J'Ula's side and getting destroyed to pushed down. And the Federation will be there to stand by their Klingon allies just like they were back in the Klingon Civil War seen in TNG, as will the Klingon's Romulan Republic allies.
  • redvengeredvenge Member Posts: 1,369 Arc User
    We are already seeing it in-game with the Klingons partaking in more cooperative assignments with the Alliance, generally not being as mindlessly bloodthristy with war, and accepting more diplomatic options. Things that they wouldn't have normally even considered in the past.
    No, there is no evidence of this "cultural shift" at all. At best, Klingon leaders are explaining their reasons to the player (and possibly to the Empire) as "joining forces to fight a superior foe". The leaders seemed reluctant at first, now they just "go along" with whatever the story needs to be done next.

    We have no idea what the Klingon populace, or the member species of the KDF, think about any of the events in the game, because the Klingon populace has no voice. It's even worse for KDF member species; they don't even get representation in story missions, let alone self-governance. Everyone just "goes along" with whatever the leaders say, because "someone out thar needs a killin", I guess.
    Change within the Klingon Empire will not come solely by Klingon involvement alone, but by their interaction with other species, and needing to alter their current behavior to better suit interaction with people beyond themselves.
    As far as STO is concerned, change comes because "the script writer says so". We do not actually witness any changes among the Klingon populace; just pretty speeches from a handful of leaders. We have no idea what is going on within the Empire itself. This lack of development is far more damaging to the KDF identity than losing "exclusive gameplay features". The KDF is a half-baked version of Starfleet and the Empire is a poor man's United Federation of Planets, lacking the UFP's heart and soul.
    I suspect the current Discovery arc, with J'Ula coming to 2410, and possibly rallying other hostile elements within the Empire to start a civil war scenario, will be the big tipping point for the Klingons to move in that direction in STO's timeline. With the most hostile and bloodthirsty elements being on J'Ula's side and getting destroyed to pushed down.
    ... and no one will care, because nothing of value is at stake.

    The current KDF is an empty shell, a mockery of Starfleet. Why anyone should care about it being "threatened"? "Oh, the galaxy is at stake" is lazy hack writing. Make us CARE about the KDF before you go threatening to break it.
  • somtaawkharsomtaawkhar Member Posts: 5,321 Arc User
    edited December 2018
    redvenge wrote: »
    No, there is no evidence of this "cultural shift" at all. At best, Klingon leaders are explaining their reasons to the player (and possibly to the Empire) as "joining forces to fight a superior foe". The leaders seemed reluctant at first, now they just "go along" with whatever the story needs to be done next.

    We have no idea what the Klingon populace, or the member species of the KDF, think about any of the events in the game, because the Klingon populace has no voice. It's even worse for KDF member species; they don't even get representation in story missions, let alone self-governance. Everyone just "goes along" with whatever the leaders say, because "someone out thar needs a killin", I guess.

    As far as STO is concerned, change comes because "the script writer says so". We do not actually witness any changes among the Klingon populace; just pretty speeches from a handful of leaders. We have no idea what is going on within the Empire itself. This lack of development is far more damaging to the KDF identity than losing "exclusive gameplay features". The KDF is a half-baked version of Starfleet and the Empire is a poor man's United Federation of Planets, lacking the UFP's heart and soul.
    This argument totally ignores that in writing for something like Star Trek one always selects a handful of characters from a species or faction to represent that species/faction's general attitudes, and that as those character's ideas change, it meant to reflect a change in the culture as a whole. We really only see and get development on a handful of Ferengi in DS9, but by the end of the series we can tell from that handful of Ferengi that Ferengi society is beginning to head in a new direction based on how they have changed. This same applies to STO.

    I also find it ironic that you claim that the other species of the Klingon Empire get no representation when the Empire's primary ambassador is a Gorn, and he has appeared in a number of missions. Not to mention the fact that, by this logic, most Federation member species get no representation, since we almost always see humans and Vulcans above all else. The people of the Federation have no voice! /sarcasm.
    redvenge wrote: »
    "Oh, the galaxy is at stake"
    Which isn't the plot they are using in this scenario.
    redvenge wrote: »
    Why anyone should care about it being "threatened"?
    Because they actually like the Klingons.
  • brian334brian334 Member Posts: 2,180 Arc User
    The Organians did say, when we met them the first, (second,) time that the Klingons and the humans would become fast friends. We just didn't realize how fast!
  • sirsitsalotsirsitsalot Member Posts: 1,594 Arc User
    brian334 wrote: »
    The Organians did say, when we met them the first, (second,) time that the Klingons and the humans would become fast friends. We just didn't realize how fast!

    Well, Chronologically speaking, we are a century after that declaration. And a lot has happened. The recent war with the Klingons and the Federation happened only because the Federation wasn't taking the Klingon Empire's concerns regarding the Undine threat seriously, and they felt that it was on them to step up and be ready to oppose an invasion even if it meant getting the Federation out of their way due to their perceived complacency.

    Fast forward to the conclusion of the Iconian war, with a formal apology to the Klingon leadership for not taking them seriously, the conflict between the Federation and the Klingon empire was declared to be at an end. It was on that day that the Alliance was formed. Its first members had started off as the bitterest of enemies, but now there is no denying that both are stronger together. And it was the joint venture of helping the Romulan Republic establish itself and in so doing, a once common enemy to both had become an ally to both, and now an equal partner in that Alliance. At the same time, while being part of a larger institution, the members of the Galactic Alliance maintain their sovereignty. But after recent events, there can be no denying that unity between civilizations yields productive results
    I have no snarky remarks to make, at this time...
  • redvengeredvenge Member Posts: 1,369 Arc User
    This argument totally ignores that in writing for something like Star Trek one always selects a handful of characters from a species or faction to represent that species/faction's general attitudes, and that as those character's ideas change, it meant to reflect a change in the culture as a whole.
    Except we have seen whole story arcs in Star Trek about how the Empire has diverse attitudes regarding it's leadership and what the "common Klingon" thinks. From The Final Frontier (where we see a Klingon apologize to Kirk and admit his actions do not represent his government) to several Klingon-centric stories in The Next Generation and Deep Space Nine. The plot of Undiscovered Country would not exist if your statement regarding the Empire was true.
    We really only see and get development on a handful of Ferengi in DS9, but by the end of the series we can tell from that handful of Ferengi that Ferengi society is beginning to head in a new direction based on how they have changed. This same applies to STO.
    Rom becomes the Grand Nagus and institutes "sweeping" changes. J'mpok can't even get off his throne to fight the Hurq'. You know, one of the "greatest threats the Empire ever faced"? So far, the only "sweeping changes" J'mpok has introduced was to shame diplomats... before becoming a diplomat. He is shown to be weak and hypocritical. If he is the stand in for the average Klingon, no wonder the KDF is unpopular.
    I also find it ironic that you claim that the other species of the Klingon Empire get no representation when the Empire's primary ambassador is a Gorn, and he has appeared in a number of missions.
    So, during a time that J'mpok is sneering down his nose at diplomats, he makes S'taass a diplomat. Gornar was conquered in 2403; it's only been 7 years since the Gorn were subjugated by the Empire. They have limited self governance and no representation on the High Council...

    ... and all of these things happened offscreen. S'taass does not represent anything. Does he represent "joe Gorn", or is he a "propaganda puppet" that advertises the "merciful and wise Klingon Empire and it's strong and wise Chancellor J'mpok"? I don't know, and you don't either. There is no "average joe" Gorn, or Orion or even the discount K'zinti. There is no representative of any of the "Empire affiliate races" in any of the story missions.
    Not to mention the fact that, by this logic, most Federation member species get no representation, since we almost always see humans and Vulcans above all else. The people of the Federation have no voice! /sarcasm.
    The Federation has been established (more or less) by 50+ years of television shows, books, and games. The current KDF was established in the "Path to 2409" and that's it. It completely the product of Cryptic. Virtually NOTHING in the actual game itself talks about the state of the "affiliate races" and there are certainly no NPCs you can talk to about it.
    Which isn't the plot they are using in this scenario.
    Irrelevant. The issue is not plot; it's stakes. Why should the audience care about the fate of the KDF when Cryptic has made no effort to develop the KDF beyond a handful of text in "The Path to 2409"?
    Because they actually like the Klingons.
    This is not about the Klingons. This is about "picking a side". The Klingons survived J'mpok, they'll survive J'Ula. Why should we care that she threatens the current political regime? The Republic and the Federation would act only in their self interest; a J'Ula who was not interested in the current "galactic hugfest" would run counter to their needs. They could care less about the KDF or the state of the Empire. The "affiliate races"? Who knows what they think; we don't know what they think of things now.

    So finally, we have the KDF players. Why should the players care who gives them mission briefings? J'mpok. J'Ula. Just a different name on the "High Chancellor" desk. There is no development of the current KDF; there is no investment. No reason to pick a side or care who wins. The only reason KDF players "pick a side" is because the developers say "This person is bad cuz we say so! They are gonna mess up ALL THE THINGS! You gotta save ALL THE THINGS!!!". The KDF players do not have a reason to care about the current state of the KDF. It is shallow and empty.
  • somtaawkharsomtaawkhar Member Posts: 5,321 Arc User
    edited December 2018
    redvenge wrote: »
    Rom becomes the Grand Nagus and institutes "sweeping" changes. J'mpok can't even get off his throne to fight the Hurq'. You know, one of the "greatest threats the Empire ever faced"? So far, the only "sweeping changes" J'mpok has introduced was to shame diplomats... before becoming a diplomat. He is shown to be weak and hypocritical. If he is the stand in for the average Klingon, no wonder the KDF is unpopular.
    I always find it funny how people who support these positions seemingly either don't know the lore of the game they are playing, or simply don't have the desire to be honest about it.

    J'mpok only "shamed" Martok's diplomacy because Martok was allowing the Federation to dissuade him from taking the fight to the Undine, a force that threatened them all. It was only after J'mpok's war with the Federation managed to drag the Federation into the Undine conflict that he stopped pissing on them because the thing that was threatening them both was finally over. Not hating someone after they stopped doing the thing you hated them for in the first place isn't hypocritical.

    Not only that, but the reason why he didn't take the full Klingon army into the Gamma Quadrant to fight the Hur'q was because the KDF had spent the better part of two years doing nothing but fighting conflicts, and needed time to rebuild. Something the other factions admit is a state they have been in since the Iconian War themselves. Even then, he let Martok and Kurn take all the Klingon ship captains who wanted to go fight into the GQ to do so. That's a pretty good political move to not only ensure the continued stability of the Empire, by not letting what little forces you have left get destroyed in a conflict that ultimately had nothing to do with you, but also keep problems with dissidents down by letting them go off and do what they want.

    STO has CONSTANTLY shown that everything J'mpok has done was right. Even when it came to the Hur'q, he was ultimately right about the Hur'q being the Dominion's problem since we found out it was The Dominion who made that that way in the first place.

    Also, it was Zek who started the changes to Ferengi society after first being mind warped by the Prophets(though he as later put back to normal) and then by Ishka, Rom just continued them.
    redvenge wrote: »
    So, during a time that J'mpok is sneering down his nose at diplomats, he makes S'taass a diplomat. Gornar was conquered in 2403; it's only been 7 years since the Gorn were subjugated by the Empire. They have limited self governance and no representation on the High Council...
    This is also entirely incorrect. When Gornar was conquered J'mpok allowed them to keep their own king, and all their old laws and traditions, they just had to swear fealty to the empire. The Gorn were also given a non voting seat on the High Council. The Gorn have basically complete self rule, and some representation on the Council.
    redvenge wrote: »
    ... and all of these things happened offscreen. S'taass does not represent anything. Does he represent "joe Gorn", or is he a "propaganda puppet" that advertises the "merciful and wise Klingon Empire and it's strong and wise Chancellor J'mpok"? I don't know, and you don't either. There is no "average joe" Gorn, or Orion or even the discount K'zinti. There is no representative of any of the "Empire affiliate races" in any of the story missions.
    One could levy this same argument against Federation citizens. When was the last time we saw a Fed civie in a story mission? All we see are Starfleet officers, or high level diplomats, who aren't representative of the common Federation civie by your argument.
    redvenge wrote: »
    The Federation has been established (more or less) by 50+ years of television shows, books, and games. The current KDF was established in the "Path to 2409" and that's it. It completely the product of Cryptic. Virtually NOTHING in the actual game itself talks about the state of the "affiliate races" and there are certainly no NPCs you can talk to about it.
    Except this is also entirely wrong as well, as Klingons, and Klingon lore, have been around since TOS, and have been the focus of numerous books, comics, and games, since then, just like the Federation has. Everything about how the Empire and Klingons act in-game is based off of the TV shows and movies. The only thing Cryptic invented for STO was the Gorn, Orions, Ferasans, Nausicaans, and Lethians, joining it. And we have known from the TV shows for ages that the Klingons had other races in their empire as well, we just never saw them, so this isn't even new either.
    redvenge wrote: »
    Irrelevant. The issue is not plot; it's stakes. Why should the audience care about the fate of the KDF when Cryptic has made no effort to develop the KDF beyond a handful of text in "The Path to 2409"?
    Because they have developed the KDF beyond the Path to 2409, which is why there is a Klingon playable faction, Klingon specific missions, and why Klingon characters have made frequent major appearances throughout the game's storyline.
    redvenge wrote: »
    This is not about the Klingons. This is about "picking a side". The Klingons survived J'mpok, they'll survive J'Ula. Why should we care that she threatens the current political regime? The Republic and the Federation would act only in their self interest; a J'Ula who was not interested in the current "galactic hugfest" would run counter to their needs. They could care less about the KDF or the state of the Empire. The "affiliate races"? Who knows what they think; we don't know what they think of things now.

    So finally, we have the KDF players. Why should the players care who gives them mission briefings? J'mpok. J'Ula. Just a different name on the "High Chancellor" desk. There is no development of the current KDF; there is no investment. No reason to pick a side or care who wins. The only reason KDF players "pick a side" is because the developers say "This person is bad cuz we say so! They are gonna mess up ALL THE THINGS! You gotta save ALL THE THINGS!!!". The KDF players do not have a reason to care about the current state of the KDF. It is shallow and empty.
    Hmm I don't know, maybe because all the history of Star Trek throughout the TV shows and movies has shown that the mindset of people like J'Ula is incredibly self destructive and damaging to the empire and always ends up getting it nearly destroyed. I also like this entirely baseless claim that the Feds and Romulan Republic don't care about the KDF or the state of the Empire when everything has shown the opposite.

    Again, because the players actually like the Klingon faction, and don't want to see it fall into the same problems we have seen it fall into in the TV shows and movies.
  • sarvour0sarvour0 Member Posts: 377 Arc User
    "QISmaS botIvjaj 'ej DIS botIvjaj!"
    w2EvX.jpg

    I have made, a QISmaS Warrior, Santar N'Klaus of the House of N'Klaus!
    KDF Engineer! And he is already building Birds of Prey by the dozen...
    Sworn enemy of Fek'Ihri & Kramp'lhri alike!
    Qapla! Ho-ho-ho!
    4073703.jpg
    [SIGPIC]Sarvour Shipyards[/SIGPIC]Sarvour Shipyards
    =A=Commodore Joshua Daniel Sarvour, S.C.E.
    U.S.S. AKAGI NX-93347, Enterprise-class Battle Cruiser =A= U.S.S. T'KORA'S WRATH NX-110047, Odyssey-class Battle Cruiser

    "There Ain't No Grave, Can Hold My Body Down..."

    PS - I fully support a T6 Nova, fixing the Nova skins. I am also rooting for a T6 Science Cruiser, that can use Nova/Rhode Island skins.
    T6 Nova/Rhode Island, T6 Oberth & T6 Constellation are needed. Also needed a T6 Science Cruiser, that can wear any Science or Cruiser skin.
  • patrickngopatrickngo Member Posts: 9,757 Arc User
    edited December 2018
    redvenge wrote: »
    Rom becomes the Grand Nagus and institutes "sweeping" changes. J'mpok can't even get off his throne to fight the Hurq'. You know, one of the "greatest threats the Empire ever faced"? So far, the only "sweeping changes" J'mpok has introduced was to shame diplomats... before becoming a diplomat. He is shown to be weak and hypocritical. If he is the stand in for the average Klingon, no wonder the KDF is unpopular.
    I always find it funny how people who support these positions seemingly either don't know the lore of the game they are playing, or simply don't have the desire to be honest about it.

    J'mpok only "shamed" Martok's diplomacy because Martok was allowing the Federation to dissuade him from taking the fight to the Undine, a force that threatened them all. It was only after J'mpok's war with the Federation managed to drag the Federation into the Undine conflict that he stopped pissing on them because the thing that was threatening them both was finally over. Not hating someone after they stopped doing the thing you hated them for in the first place isn't hypocritical.

    Not only that, but the reason why he didn't take the full Klingon army into the Gamma Quadrant to fight the Hur'q was because the KDF had spent the better part of two years doing nothing but fighting conflicts, and needed time to rebuild. Something the other factions admit is a state they have been in since the Iconian War themselves. Even then, he let Martok and Kurn take all the Klingon ship captains who wanted to go fight into the GQ to do so. That's a pretty good political move to not only ensure the continued stability of the Empire, by not letting what little forces you have left get destroyed in a conflict that ultimately had nothing to do with you, but also keep problems with dissidents down by letting them go off and do what they want.

    STO has CONSTANTLY shown that everything J'mpok has done was right. Even when it came to the Hur'q, he was ultimately right about the Hur'q being the Dominion's problem since we found out it was The Dominion who made that that way in the first place.

    Also, it was Zek who started the changes to Ferengi society after first being mind warped by the Prophets(though he as later put back to normal) and then by Ishka, Rom just continued them.
    redvenge wrote: »
    So, during a time that J'mpok is sneering down his nose at diplomats, he makes S'taass a diplomat. Gornar was conquered in 2403; it's only been 7 years since the Gorn were subjugated by the Empire. They have limited self governance and no representation on the High Council...
    This is also entirely incorrect. When Gornar was conquered J'mpok allowed them to keep their own king, and all their old laws and traditions, they just had to swear fealty to the empire. The Gorn were also given a non voting seat on the High Council. The Gorn have basically complete self rule, and some representation on the Council.
    redvenge wrote: »
    ... and all of these things happened offscreen. S'taass does not represent anything. Does he represent "joe Gorn", or is he a "propaganda puppet" that advertises the "merciful and wise Klingon Empire and it's strong and wise Chancellor J'mpok"? I don't know, and you don't either. There is no "average joe" Gorn, or Orion or even the discount K'zinti. There is no representative of any of the "Empire affiliate races" in any of the story missions.
    One could levy this same argument against Federation citizens. When was the last time we saw a Fed civie in a story mission? All we see are Starfleet officers, or high level diplomats, who aren't representative of the common Federation civie by your argument.
    redvenge wrote: »
    The Federation has been established (more or less) by 50+ years of television shows, books, and games. The current KDF was established in the "Path to 2409" and that's it. It completely the product of Cryptic. Virtually NOTHING in the actual game itself talks about the state of the "affiliate races" and there are certainly no NPCs you can talk to about it.
    Except this is also entirely wrong as well, as Klingons, and Klingon lore, have been around since TOS, and have been the focus of numerous books, comics, and games, since then, just like the Federation has. Everything about how the Empire and Klingons act in-game is based off of the TV shows and movies. The only thing Cryptic invented for STO was the Gorn, Orions, Ferasans, Nausicaans, and Lethians, joining it. And we have known from the TV shows for ages that the Klingons had other races in their empire as well, we just never saw them, so this isn't even new either.
    redvenge wrote: »
    Irrelevant. The issue is not plot; it's stakes. Why should the audience care about the fate of the KDF when Cryptic has made no effort to develop the KDF beyond a handful of text in "The Path to 2409"?
    Because they have developed the KDF beyond the Path to 2409, which is why there is a Klingon playable faction, Klingon specific missions, and why Klingon characters have made frequent major appearances throughout the game's storyline.
    redvenge wrote: »
    This is not about the Klingons. This is about "picking a side". The Klingons survived J'mpok, they'll survive J'Ula. Why should we care that she threatens the current political regime? The Republic and the Federation would act only in their self interest; a J'Ula who was not interested in the current "galactic hugfest" would run counter to their needs. They could care less about the KDF or the state of the Empire. The "affiliate races"? Who knows what they think; we don't know what they think of things now.

    So finally, we have the KDF players. Why should the players care who gives them mission briefings? J'mpok. J'Ula. Just a different name on the "High Chancellor" desk. There is no development of the current KDF; there is no investment. No reason to pick a side or care who wins. The only reason KDF players "pick a side" is because the developers say "This person is bad cuz we say so! They are gonna mess up ALL THE THINGS! You gotta save ALL THE THINGS!!!". The KDF players do not have a reason to care about the current state of the KDF. It is shallow and empty.
    Hmm I don't know, maybe because all the history of Star Trek throughout the TV shows and movies has shown that the mindset of people like J'Ula is incredibly self destructive and damaging to the empire and always ends up getting it nearly destroyed. I also like this entirely baseless claim that the Feds and Romulan Republic don't care about the KDF or the state of the Empire when everything has shown the opposite.

    Again, because the players actually like the Klingon faction, and don't want to see it fall into the same problems we have seen it fall into in the TV shows and movies.

    I wanna live in your universe, Som, because it's a lot better done than the one we're actually getting.

    See, heres' the thing; J'ula's just another villain-of-the-week. Hakeev with mammary glands, boring, nothing we've been presented with shows any reason anyone would follow her.

    so in that sense, you're right; she's a collection of bad stereotypes, like every other designated bad-guy in the game.

    But what you don't get, is that this is what makes this whole situation with the KDF a problem for the fans (who aren't fans to your level, willing to accept everything they're fed with no complaints.)

    The fundamental problem you're not getting, is that Jula is weaksauce, as was Torg before her, a designated evul that has no qualities that would attract the followers she's got.

    and that boils down to the faction being effectively undeveloped-even after path to 2409.

    it doesn't feel like a choice, can you dig that? there's the "Obviously badguy" and there's "The guy who's rushing to surrender their sovereignty to the Federation".

    in a sense, a very anvilicious situation over-all. Jimmy Pok's basically ruling as an autocrat with the demise of the Klingon High Councillors, and there's nothing of the politics suggested in TNG/DS9 here, just Jimmy-pok and a cameo by Martok, and then the arrival of someone so obviously one-dimensional villain she should have a top hat, moustache, and some railroad trax to tie puppies to.

    see, J'ula's formulated to be a four-color villain for Feds to stomp on, and what could be, and ought to be, a complex, interesting story for KDF? is nothign but a blog=sideshow to a simple, one-and-done stomping of yet-another-nutjob by Starfleet.

    You imagine depth where none is provided, you go and cite external sources and that's fine-if your audience solely consists of Star Trek Superfans craving the same ham&Cheeze they just ate.

    but all you just posted? shows how little actual depth is in the KDF story, because you have to add all the details that make it make sense off a few bare-bones excuses, because the real action, and the real story, is all done Fedside, and it's not much depth there either.

    All anyone coming to this without spending hours poring over the comic book from eclipse has on J'ula, is your basic, b-feature fantasy villain, but without the depth of a b-feature fantasy villain. She's got zero traits that would inspire admiration, much less loyalty, except for some magic book and a blood relation to a failed prophet.

    I mean, hell, she didn't even do as well as Hillary. Her 'amazing reputation' isn't in evidence and doesn't even stack up to the deeds of the player characters, and they're not in line to be chancellor either.

    so she's a generic baddie that we're supposed to care about? why? she's obviously not fit to lead, and wont' be written as someone who IS fit to lead, so it's a non-starter there too.

    There was a fundamental wisdom in the original devs making KDF a faction where PvP was important, because it's natural to the faction-and a pretty epic story could have been built around it-but cryptic doesn't have the time, manpower, or chops to carry it off, and once they abandoned that, they really didn't have anything except "Let's rush to homogenize everybody into funny-looking Starfleet officers! yeah that's the ticket!"

    and it led to what we've got; a self-reinforcing situation where the faction is devoid of anything that might attract interest in someone who wasn't already (before registering with the game) interested.

    the whole purpose in having factions, is for players to have different flavours in the game, to tell variations of the story that have real variation, and to provide something other than the bland, homogenized 'Trying to satisfy everyone so it compromises everything" approach.

    as I said, you argue constantly for why Mediocrity is Good, but you're obviously not playing the same game the rest of us are.

    Post edited by patrickngo on
  • patrickngopatrickngo Member Posts: 9,757 Arc User
    Okay, let's try this a different way;

    KDF has half a story.

    that's it. half a story, Somtawwahkhar (or whatever. if your handle's too long expect it to be misspelled), because yeah, every point you've made, could be extrapolated off of flat statements. (this is termed "telling not showing")

    and there's the problem; more of the story Som's defending is 'told" not "Shown", and there are a chock load of hooks in every storyline that's 'cross faction' that could have (and with a better financed studio, could have) been more than a tell done off-screen.

    and that's kinda the core problem here; there's half a story-Starfleet's half, and your KDF character? they could vanish entirely and it would still be that half a story.

    Doesn't have to be that way, it could have been a lot better than what Cryptic turned out, but then, that would require resources beyond what a couple of staffers could sneak during lunch breaks and after closing on their own dime.

    I stand on my prediction with J'ula by the way; she's going to be at BEST Hakeev with a bikini line, a construct equal parts negative stereotypes and ham&cheeze, with nothing that actually suggests she'd be ABLE to gain, and hold, the loyalty of competent followers beyond some magic book mentioned in the blog-post.

    Because the whole thing is written, produced and directed from a Starfleet/Federation point of view, with all mission content being to support how centrally important to EVERYONE the Federation is (more important than the Empire, even to Klingons).

    the problem is that Cryptic can't do a competent villain. T'Ket is crazy, (The rest of the Iconians were also crazy, and unfortunately, crazy villains are only dangerous if they're also intelligent, and as-written, the Iconians aren't.)

    More "Joke" than "Joker" to use a comics reference.

    and this is an ongoing problem-we don't get to have a choice, we're going to be good little Starfleet officers even if we're supposed to be borderline-criminal Orions, or mind-walking Letheans, or bargain-Kzinti-clone Ferasans, or grudgingly Patriotic Gorn, or even Klingon.

    Thing is, Klingons are inherently political, not in the passive-aggressive mold of Romulans, but more in the sense that you see with properties like Game of Thrones, Vikings, or Kurosawa movies. The system of "Houses" means there's more jockeying for power, resources, and position, there are feuds and enmities going back centuries, there are so many chances to bring story to the players it's almost spoiled for material to draw on, yet Cryptic insists there isn't enough material.

    It's because a Klingon Empire storyline doesn't fit the moral focus of a Starfleet focused game, and if it were taken seriously, it would have to be a lot of positioning, jockeying, fighting and deal making just to keep the Alliance stable...because these are NOT inherently nice, conflict-averse people.

    Which is a big chunk of the interest-draw that brought a lot of our long-term KDF players in; those negative personal traits that don't play well with Starfleet or the Utopian vision of the Federation, that combination of "God is dead" but having an active spiritual life, while the Federation is at best agnostic but most often atheist. A culture that enshrines vengeance as a moral imperative rather than a vice to be trampled out, that has replaced "Hello" and "goodbye" with "Success!" because winning is so central to their morality, where being unwilling to back your position with violence *(or stand in courage when your violence isn't sufficient) is enshrined, as opposed to the Utopian ideal of order and conformity that is the Federation.

    What attracts people to Klingons isn't their eagerness to embrace for want of a better term, niceness and inoffensiveness, but their willing embrace of being offensive, of taking a stand or position, and being willing to put life on the line and kill for your views, to go to war because the peaceful kingdom of the FEderation is willing to let invaders break them from within.

    Stupid barbarians don't build starships, much less star empires, but Empires aren't built by nice guys either, and Klingons are not supposed to be 'nice' people.







  • somtaawkharsomtaawkhar Member Posts: 5,321 Arc User
    edited December 2018
    patrickngo wrote: »
    Okay, let's try this a different way;

    KDF has half a story.

    that's it. half a story, Somtawwahkhar (or whatever. if your handle's too long expect it to be misspelled), because yeah, every point you've made, could be extrapolated off of flat statements. (this is termed "telling not showing")

    and there's the problem; more of the story Som's defending is 'told" not "Shown", and there are a chock load of hooks in every storyline that's 'cross faction' that could have (and with a better financed studio, could have) been more than a tell done off-screen.

    and that's kinda the core problem here; there's half a story-Starfleet's half, and your KDF character? they could vanish entirely and it would still be that half a story.

    Doesn't have to be that way, it could have been a lot better than what Cryptic turned out, but then, that would require resources beyond what a couple of staffers could sneak during lunch breaks and after closing on their own dime.
    By this logic none of the characters matter because the Fed player character doesn't need to exist for the Romulan player character to go from zero to Iconian War savior.

    And I want you to do what you have never done before and actually detail some of there scenarios because I bet you I could find numerous reasons why they wouldn't work out as you think they would.
    patrickngo wrote: »
    Because the whole thing is written, produced and directed from a Starfleet/Federation point of view, with all mission content being to support how centrally important to EVERYONE the Federation is (more important than the Empire, even to Klingons).
    Except the Federation has had jack to do with it, or pretty much any of the previous arcs. In fact, the Undine, Iconians, and Dominion, all point out in-game that the Klingons are the greater threat compared to the Federation due to their heavy focus on war and combat making them the stronger fighting force. Even in the most recent Hur'q storyline it was hammered into the players head that the Klingons were key to winning the war, more so then any other species. Klingons have always been positioned as being the more important of the two.
    patrickngo wrote: »
    the problem is that Cryptic can't do a competent villain. T'Ket is crazy, (The rest of the Iconians were also crazy, and unfortunately, crazy villains are only dangerous if they're also intelligent, and as-written, the Iconians aren't.)
    The Iconians were by no means crazy, or unintelligent, and actually used fairly good infiltration, diversion, and divide and conquer, strategies in order to weaken he forces of the galaxy before their arrival. Had it not been for the fact that we are the "player character" they would have won.
    patrickngo wrote: »
    and this is an ongoing problem-we don't get to have a choice, we're going to be good little Starfleet officers even if we're supposed to be borderline-criminal Orions, or mind-walking Letheans, or bargain-Kzinti-clone Ferasans, or grudgingly Patriotic Gorn, or even Klingon.

    Thing is, Klingons are inherently political, not in the passive-aggressive mold of Romulans, but more in the sense that you see with properties like Game of Thrones, Vikings, or Kurosawa movies. The system of "Houses" means there's more jockeying for power, resources, and position, there are feuds and enmities going back centuries, there are so many chances to bring story to the players it's almost spoiled for material to draw on, yet Cryptic insists there isn't enough material.

    It's because a Klingon Empire storyline doesn't fit the moral focus of a Starfleet focused game, and if it were taken seriously, it would have to be a lot of positioning, jockeying, fighting and deal making just to keep the Alliance stable...because these are NOT inherently nice, conflict-averse people.

    Which is a big chunk of the interest-draw that brought a lot of our long-term KDF players in; those negative personal traits that don't play well with Starfleet or the Utopian vision of the Federation, that combination of "God is dead" but having an active spiritual life, while the Federation is at best agnostic but most often atheist. A culture that enshrines vengeance as a moral imperative rather than a vice to be trampled out, that has replaced "Hello" and "goodbye" with "Success!" because winning is so central to their morality, where being unwilling to back your position with violence *(or stand in courage when your violence isn't sufficient) is enshrined, as opposed to the Utopian ideal of order and conformity that is the Federation.

    What attracts people to Klingons isn't their eagerness to embrace for want of a better term, niceness and inoffensiveness, but their willing embrace of being offensive, of taking a stand or position, and being willing to put life on the line and kill for your views, to go to war because the peaceful kingdom of the FEderation is willing to let invaders break them from within.

    Stupid barbarians don't build starships, much less star empires, but Empires aren't built by nice guys either, and Klingons are not supposed to be 'nice' people.
    The problem with this argument, and indeed your entire post, is that its based around completely flanderizing the Klingon species into yet another "planet of hats" mono-culture, where all Klingons act and think exactly the same(that being a people focused entirely on war and fighting), when the Trek shows have not only proven that untrue, but have also shown Klingons gradually turning AWAY from that kind of thinking as they realize that itself destructive and unsustainable.

    You are asking that Klingons remain exactly as they are, forever, just to maintain some "ideal" of what it means to be Klingon. Even when Star Trek: Enterprise brought up the fact that this violent warrior culture was not TRUE Klingon culture, but instead a corruption of true Klingon culture as Kahless originally intended it to be. As well as ignoring that we have seen a slow but steady reversal of this culture since the Khitomer Accords were signed in Undiscovered Country.

    Klingons in STO should be far less violent, and far more willing to just get get over differences in culture or ideals with other species then they were in the TV shows. Not only because its several decades more into the future, and they were already slowly undoing this culture since the Khitomer Accords to begin with, but further factors like the Klingon Civil War seen in TNG, and the need to ally not only with the Federation, but also the Klingons other long standing enemy the Romulans, as well as the Cardassian Resistance, to defeat the Dominion, would have accelerated this process even more. Not to mention the assimilation of the Gorn, Orions, Nausicaans, Ferasans, and Letheans, in order to stand up to the expanding Federation, and the greater cultural and ideological tolerance that would have brought.

    What you are suggesting is that Klingons should have learned literally nothing from all of their experiences in the last 100+ years, and basically TRIBBLE away all of the character development Klingon characters went through in TNG and DS9. Simply to retain your personal idealization of what Klingons are, and should be. And that is simply bad writing.

    Its like saying that a post DS9 Trek show needs to have Cardassians be the same military police state they were in TNG and the beginning of DS9 because "that's what Cardassians are!" totally ignoring everything Cardassians went through in DS9 that made them realize that was a terrible state to be in.
    Post edited by somtaawkhar on
  • redvengeredvenge Member Posts: 1,369 Arc User
    I always find it funny how people who support these positions seemingly either don't know the lore of the game they are playing, or simply don't have the desire to be honest about it.
    Ah, the typical @somtaawkhar start to a response; the dismissive insult. It is such a joy to converse with you, som. Don't ever change, 'k?
    only "shamed" Martok's diplomacy because Martok was allowing the Federation to dissuade him from taking the fight to the Undine, a force that threatened them all. It was only after J'mpok's war with the Federation managed to drag the Federation into the Undine conflict that he stopped pissing on them because the thing that was threatening them both was finally over. Not hating someone after they stopped doing the thing you hated them for in the first place isn't hypocritical.
    He lobbied for war. His political stance was to put the "war" back in "warrior". During the Iconian Disappointment, sure, it makes sense to ally against a common foe. After that? Not so much. He represented a faction within the High Council that wants to fight. Now, he's one of those diplomats he sneered at. For a politician, that is hypocritical.
    Not only that, but the reason why he didn't take the full Klingon army into the Gamma Quadrant to fight the Hur'q was because the KDF had spent the better part of two years doing nothing but fighting conflicts, and needed time to rebuild. Something the other factions admit is a state they have been in since the Iconian War themselves. Even then, he let Martok and Kurn take all the Klingon ship captains who wanted to go fight into the GQ to do so. That's a pretty good political move to not only ensure the continued stability of the Empire, by not letting what little forces you have left get destroyed in a conflict that ultimately had nothing to do with you, but also keep problems with dissidents down by letting them go off and do what they want.
    So Klingons are backing down from a huge, historical threat... because the Klingons are weak. Weaker than the Federation. Weakness is why they won't fight their traditional enemy? You are defending this... why? I have a hard time believing the Klingons would back down in the face of total annihilation, let alone against this particular foe.
    STO has CONSTANTLY shown that everything J'mpok has done was right. Even when it came to the Hur'q, he was ultimately right about the Hur'q being the Dominion's problem since we found out it was The Dominion who made that that way in the first place.
    What? No he hasn't. The Klingons were right about the Undine, but they handled it poorly, plunging the quadrant into a war that the Undine (and the Iconians) wanted. Other than that, all he has done is sit on Qo'nos and hand out mission briefings. The only other time he has actually done something personally, was to say "Hurq'? We cannot face them. We are too weak. Let the FEDERATION AND THE DOMINION FIGHT OUR TRADITIONAL ENEMY". He's a spineless politician, weaseling words while playing pretend as a warrior.
    Also, it was Zek who started the changes to Ferengi society after first being mind warped by the Prophets(though he as later put back to normal) and then by Ishka, Rom just continued them.
    Ok. Again, this was shown. J'mpok has not done anything to change Klingon culture, something you don't seem to dispute.
    This is also entirely incorrect. When Gornar was conquered J'mpok allowed them to keep their own king, and all their old laws and traditions, they just had to swear fealty to the empire. The Gorn were also given a non voting seat on the High Council. The Gorn have basically complete self rule, and some representation on the Council.
    Yes, that is what i said. They retained self governance, but had no say in anything. They have no representation on the council. A non-voting seat is useless, since they still have no say in policy.
    One could levy this same argument against Federation citizens. When was the last time we saw a Fed civie in a story mission? All we see are Starfleet officers, or high level diplomats, who aren't representative of the common Federation civie by your argument.
    This is a pointless statement. As I said:
    redvenge wrote: »
    The Federation has been established (more or less) by 50+ years of television shows, books, and games. The current KDF was established in the "Path to 2409" and that's it. It completely the product of Cryptic. Virtually NOTHING in the actual game itself talks about the state of the "affiliate races" and there are certainly no NPCs you can talk to about it.
    Except this is also entirely wrong as well, as Klingons, and Klingon lore, have been around since TOS, and have been the focus of numerous books, comics, and games, since then, just like the Federation has. Everything about how the Empire and Klingons act in-game is based off of the TV shows and movies. The only thing Cryptic invented for STO was the Gorn, Orions, Ferasans, Nausicaans, and Lethians, joining it. And we have known from the TV shows for ages that the Klingons had other races in their empire as well, we just never saw them, so this isn't even new either.
    This statement is the point. We are talking about Cryptic's KDF. Glad you are caught up. The issue is: Why should players care about Cryptic's KDF when Cryptic has done nothing to develop what they created?
    Because they have developed the KDF beyond the Path to 2409, which is why there is a Klingon playable faction, Klingon specific missions, and why Klingon characters have made frequent major appearances throughout the game's storyline.
    Being able to create a KDF character is not developing a faction. It's an aesthetic choice. The KDF specific missions are aimed towards Klingon-only characters and there are only a handful of them. The events in those arcs have no impact on the game once you finish them; outside of Worf and J'mpok, there are no reoccurring characters and they do not establish any places outside of Qo'nos.

    "Why should we care?" is established by creating places and characters that you could conceivably have an attachment to. Reoccurring characters, establishing more locations within the Empire; these story-telling techniques help build Cryptic's version of the KDF. It shows you who and what you are protecting and should establish why the current KDF is something you should protect and care about. None of this happens during the KDF missions. Those missions explore bits of Klingon-centric lore and set up the political structure, but don't really give you a reason to defend that structure.
    Hmm I don't know, maybe because all the history of Star Trek throughout the TV shows and movies has shown that the mindset of people like J'Ula is incredibly self destructive and damaging to the empire and always ends up getting it nearly destroyed. I also like this entirely baseless claim that the Feds and Romulan Republic don't care about the KDF or the state of the Empire when everything has shown the opposite.
    None of this makes any sense. The only reason the Empire agreed to the Khitomer Accords is because of an industrial accident that would have resulted in the collapse of the Empire. The Empire seemed to be doing just fine up until that point. An alternate timeline even showed they would have crushed the Federation, if the Enterprise-C had not been destroyed defending a colony from Romulans. I think your position is not so clear cut as you make it out to be.

    As for the Federation, it has been reluctant to engage in "internal matters" with the Klingon Empire. The only reason it does get involved, is for selfish reasons. The Romulans, under Datan, "don't take sides". So, if there is an "internal matter", it seems logical they would not get involved unless it was for selfish reasons.
    Again, because the players actually like the Klingon faction, and don't want to see it fall into the same problems we have seen it fall into in the TV shows and movies.
    Why do players like the KDF? It's current form is significantly different from what we have seen on the shows. This is even a common complaint ABOUT the current KDF faction! Cryptic went to some trouble to create a word doc describing the set-up and history resulting in the current playable faction, but that's it. Everything on the KDF side is "Klingon RAWR!", which does line up with what we see on many shows. However, it is also two dimensional, limiting the Klingons to a stereotype and leaves out all the other affiliate races. Why should any player care which politician is sitting on the High Council?

    If J'Ula becomes a personal enemy of the KDF player (which, will happen) your motivation will probably not be "save the KDF" (because no one cares about Cryptic's KDF). It will be "J'Ula wants your character dead", at that point it becomes a personal investment to not be dead. No one will be fighting J'Ula to "save" anything, because there is no reason to care.
  • patrickngopatrickngo Member Posts: 9,757 Arc User
    patrickngo wrote: »
    Okay, let's try this a different way;

    KDF has half a story.

    that's it. half a story, Somtawwahkhar (or whatever. if your handle's too long expect it to be misspelled), because yeah, every point you've made, could be extrapolated off of flat statements. (this is termed "telling not showing")

    and there's the problem; more of the story Som's defending is 'told" not "Shown", and there are a chock load of hooks in every storyline that's 'cross faction' that could have (and with a better financed studio, could have) been more than a tell done off-screen.

    and that's kinda the core problem here; there's half a story-Starfleet's half, and your KDF character? they could vanish entirely and it would still be that half a story.

    Doesn't have to be that way, it could have been a lot better than what Cryptic turned out, but then, that would require resources beyond what a couple of staffers could sneak during lunch breaks and after closing on their own dime.
    By this logic none of the characters matter because the Fed player character doesn't need to exist for the Romulan player character to go from zero to Iconian War savior.

    And I want you to do what you have never done before and actually detail some of there scenarios because I bet you I could find numerous reasons why they wouldn't work out as you think they would.
    patrickngo wrote: »
    Because the whole thing is written, produced and directed from a Starfleet/Federation point of view, with all mission content being to support how centrally important to EVERYONE the Federation is (more important than the Empire, even to Klingons).
    Except the Federation has had jack to do with it, or pretty much any of the previous arcs. In fact, the Undine, Iconians, and Dominion, all point out in-game that the Klingons are the greater threat compared to the Federation due to their heavy focus on war and combat making them the stronger fighting force. Even in the most recent Hur'q storyline it was hammered into the players head that the Klingons were key to winning the war, more so then any other species. Klingons have always been positioned as being the more important of the two.
    patrickngo wrote: »
    the problem is that Cryptic can't do a competent villain. T'Ket is crazy, (The rest of the Iconians were also crazy, and unfortunately, crazy villains are only dangerous if they're also intelligent, and as-written, the Iconians aren't.)
    The Iconians were by no means crazy, or unintelligent, and actually used fairly good infiltration, diversion, and divide and conquer, strategies in order to weaken he forces of the galaxy before their arrival. Had it not been for the fact that we are the "player character" they would have won.
    patrickngo wrote: »
    and this is an ongoing problem-we don't get to have a choice, we're going to be good little Starfleet officers even if we're supposed to be borderline-criminal Orions, or mind-walking Letheans, or bargain-Kzinti-clone Ferasans, or grudgingly Patriotic Gorn, or even Klingon.

    Thing is, Klingons are inherently political, not in the passive-aggressive mold of Romulans, but more in the sense that you see with properties like Game of Thrones, Vikings, or Kurosawa movies. The system of "Houses" means there's more jockeying for power, resources, and position, there are feuds and enmities going back centuries, there are so many chances to bring story to the players it's almost spoiled for material to draw on, yet Cryptic insists there isn't enough material.

    It's because a Klingon Empire storyline doesn't fit the moral focus of a Starfleet focused game, and if it were taken seriously, it would have to be a lot of positioning, jockeying, fighting and deal making just to keep the Alliance stable...because these are NOT inherently nice, conflict-averse people.

    Which is a big chunk of the interest-draw that brought a lot of our long-term KDF players in; those negative personal traits that don't play well with Starfleet or the Utopian vision of the Federation, that combination of "God is dead" but having an active spiritual life, while the Federation is at best agnostic but most often atheist. A culture that enshrines vengeance as a moral imperative rather than a vice to be trampled out, that has replaced "Hello" and "goodbye" with "Success!" because winning is so central to their morality, where being unwilling to back your position with violence *(or stand in courage when your violence isn't sufficient) is enshrined, as opposed to the Utopian ideal of order and conformity that is the Federation.

    What attracts people to Klingons isn't their eagerness to embrace for want of a better term, niceness and inoffensiveness, but their willing embrace of being offensive, of taking a stand or position, and being willing to put life on the line and kill for your views, to go to war because the peaceful kingdom of the FEderation is willing to let invaders break them from within.

    Stupid barbarians don't build starships, much less star empires, but Empires aren't built by nice guys either, and Klingons are not supposed to be 'nice' people.
    The problem with this argument, and indeed your entire post, is that its based around completely flanderizing the Klingon species into yet another "planet of hats" mono-culture, where all Klingons act and think exactly the same(that being a people focused entirely on war and fighting), when the Trek shows have not only proven that untrue, but have also shown Klingons gradually turning AWAY from that kind of thinking as they realize that itself destructive and unsustainable.

    You are asking that Klingons remain exactly as they are, forever, just to maintain some "ideal" of what it means to be Klingon. Even when Star Trek: Enterprise brought up the fact that this violent warrior culture was not TRUE Klingon culture, but instead a corruption of true Klingon culture as Kahless originally intended it to be. As well as ignoring that we have seen a slow but steady reversal of this culture since the Khitomer Accords were signed in Undiscovered Country.

    Klingons in STO should be far less violent, and far more willing to just get get over differences in culture or ideals with other species then they were in the TV shows. Not only because its several decades more into the future, and they were already slowly undoing this culture since the Khitomer Accords to begin with, but further factors like the Klingon Civil War seen in TNG, and the need to ally not only with the Federation, but also the Klingons other long standing enemy the Romulans, as well as the Cardassian Resistance, to defeat the Dominion, would have accelerated this process even more. Not to mention the assimilation of the Gorn, Orions, Nausicaans, Ferasans, and Letheans, in order to stand up to the expanding Federation, and the greater cultural and ideological tolerance that would have brought.

    What you are suggesting is that Klingons should have learned literally nothing from all of their experiences in the last 100+ years, and basically TRIBBLE away all of the character development Klingon characters went through in TNG and DS9. Simply to retain your personal idealization of what Klingons are, and should be. And that is simply bad writing.

    Its like saying that a post DS9 Trek show needs to have Cardassians be the same military police state they were in TNG and the beginning of DS9 because "that's what Cardassians are!" totally ignoring everything Cardassians went through in DS9 that made them realize that was a terrible state to be in.

    YOU, using 'Flanderizing' in a sentence?

    while missing the obvious point; that 'Growth" does NOT require "become just another Federation/Starfleet Utopianist shill".

    You want everyone to admire Picard, to imitate Data, to listen to jazz and not eat meat unless it's replicated-because that's what we're really discussing here-it's clear you don't like any of the parts that make Klingons distinctive and different as a culture, their divisiveness shows they're not a monoculture, especially not a 'let's all get along' monoculture.

    In modern terms, they could do everything I describe without 'flanderizing' them if you just understand something basic about what makes Klingons different.

    In a galaxy of Hamiltonian idealists, they're a bunch of Jacksonian individualists, it's the difference between Woodrow Wilson (Starfleet) and Teddy Roosevelt (The Klingons), one sits placidly and talks about his fourteen points and the other answers hostage taking by saying, "release them unharmed or we'll declare them heroes and kill you."

    This is the fundamental difference in the character of the two cultures-the Klingon-being-different really does make extortion difficult by killing the extortionist, they cooperate with others-but only on their own terms.

    And that's not 'flanderizing' that's having enough of a difference to justify having it as a player, rather than NPC, faction.

    Growth is fine, if it follows a logical progression. Cryptic has a logical progression in the off-game materials, but what we get?

    Let's look at this;

    1. Kagran is an Idiot.
    2. "Glory! Honor! I've shat my pants!!"

    do you get it yet? Cryptic's work on the GAME END shows NO growth or progress, they've flanderized the Klingons into a planet-of-hats already, if anything, following suggestions like some of the ones here that aren't yours would alleviate the one-dimensionalist portrayal significantly-because Klingons could have different opinions in the GAME. as opposed to what they are now, which is Starfleet's Drunken long haired buddy with an impulse control problem.

    The faction needs it's own priorities, not just "Glory, Honor! Bloodwine!!!" but some real priorities, internal debates, even internal fighting over where the Empire is going, and with leaders on both (or all) sides who are actually worth following because they think past their own personal advancement as leaders should to be worth following.

    We need to SEE the Gorn's internal struggle as clients as well-not just "rebel gorn encounter" in sector space, but some stories focusing on where the Gorn fit into the Empire, where their internal struggles come from, why Slaathis is not working night-and-day to throw the Klingons out, hell, we don't know, maybe the gorn people are getting somethign from being in the Empire, maybe the unregulated Klingon economy has given them a sudden surge of prosperity, new directions of advancement, even solved long-standing problems with the removal of a corrupt government.

    See, you don't really understand the benefits of a culture that isn't highly-centralized with bureaus that invade every aspect of people's lives 'for their own good'. All you appear to believe in is the utopian ideal of putting everyoen under the same blue-suited boot, mouthing the same platitudes.

    But the Klingon way can be different, it presents the possibility of individual action, of individualist ideals and a contrast to the collectivist Utopia of the Federation that gives both more depth-more 'gray' to the morality of the game, and that could broaden the appeal of the setting beyond 'safe spaces' college students who imagine attacks and hyperventilate over a lost election or blue-noses who get offended and imagine the objects of their moral panic around every corner.

    But you're satisfied with mediocrity and sameness, so it's kind of pointless to bring any of this up.




  • redvengeredvenge Member Posts: 1,369 Arc User
    The Iconians were by no means crazy, or unintelligent, and actually used fairly good infiltration, diversion, and divide and conquer, strategies in order to weaken he forces of the galaxy before their arrival. Had it not been for the fact that we are the "player character" they would have won.
    The Iconians are morons of the highest caliber. They are the dumbest enemies we have ever faced.

    They wasted significant amounts of time and resources faffing about when they could have crushed the defenders of the Alpha and Beta quadrants any time they wanted. All that nonsense about "infiltration" about "subterfuge" and they just show up with an entire Dyson sphere jam-packed with Heralds. The Alliance was losing not because of sneaky infiltrators but because the Iconians had overwhelming numbers, and had those numbers for who knows how long. They even had a "back-up" Dyson Sphere of Solenae, but we stopped that thanks to the leadership of Tom Paris. Even, then, one Dyson sphere was still more than enough to overwhelm our defenses.

    Then you have the actual implementation of that "gateway tech". Let's look at that "solar flare gateway" :This gateway fires a focused devastating beam of solar energy at a single target. So, why are they so inefficient with how they use it? Why open it outside a ship, where it has to burn through the hull and decks, when they can clearly open it inside the ship, maybe pointing at the warp core/singularity core? Why build hundreds of thousands of conventional munitions, when this weapon is all you need? In the first few seconds of any engagement, every single Allied ship goes "boom". A day later, you use the same weapon to disable power generation and communications across whole worlds; isolating your enemies and making a mockery of their "Grand Alliance". Inside a month, your enemies are living in the Dark Ages and you have not even introduced ground forces. In this scenario, you actually put that infiltration information to good use; identifying targets for destruction, then demanding surrender of your enemies. Within a year, the Iconians would have conquered everything, all because of one weapon that no one can defend against. It really says something when a Ferengi accidentally uses your technology more efficiently than YOU do. And you've had Gateway Tech for eons! Even the Pakleds would have used the tech more efficiently!

    You cannot take the Iconians seriously because they want to lose. They are "throwing the match". They are not scary, or intimidating. They are stupid.
  • warpangelwarpangel Member Posts: 8,042 Arc User
    redvenge wrote: »
    The Iconians were by no means crazy, or unintelligent, and actually used fairly good infiltration, diversion, and divide and conquer, strategies in order to weaken he forces of the galaxy before their arrival. Had it not been for the fact that we are the "player character" they would have won.
    The Iconians are morons of the highest caliber. They are the dumbest enemies we have ever faced.

    They wasted significant amounts of time and resources faffing about when they could have crushed the defenders of the Alpha and Beta quadrants any time they wanted. All that nonsense about "infiltration" about "subterfuge" and they just show up with an entire Dyson sphere jam-packed with Heralds. The Alliance was losing not because of sneaky infiltrators but because the Iconians had overwhelming numbers, and had those numbers for who knows how long. They even had a "back-up" Dyson Sphere of Solenae, but we stopped that thanks to the leadership of Tom Paris. Even, then, one Dyson sphere was still more than enough to overwhelm our defenses.

    Then you have the actual implementation of that "gateway tech". Let's look at that "solar flare gateway" :This gateway fires a focused devastating beam of solar energy at a single target. So, why are they so inefficient with how they use it? Why open it outside a ship, where it has to burn through the hull and decks, when they can clearly open it inside the ship, maybe pointing at the warp core/singularity core? Why build hundreds of thousands of conventional munitions, when this weapon is all you need? In the first few seconds of any engagement, every single Allied ship goes "boom". A day later, you use the same weapon to disable power generation and communications across whole worlds; isolating your enemies and making a mockery of their "Grand Alliance". Inside a month, your enemies are living in the Dark Ages and you have not even introduced ground forces. In this scenario, you actually put that infiltration information to good use; identifying targets for destruction, then demanding surrender of your enemies. Within a year, the Iconians would have conquered everything, all because of one weapon that no one can defend against. It really says something when a Ferengi accidentally uses your technology more efficiently than YOU do. And you've had Gateway Tech for eons! Even the Pakleds would have used the tech more efficiently!

    You cannot take the Iconians seriously because they want to lose. They are "throwing the match". They are not scary, or intimidating. They are stupid.
    Yes, the iconian war could've been just a single cutscene in which they gated bombs into every military facility and murdered all the faction leaders in their sleep and then roll credits it's game over, the bad guys win.

    But making us fight dark space wizards in their black spiky ships of evil instead makes for a better game. ;)
  • somtaawkharsomtaawkhar Member Posts: 5,321 Arc User
    edited December 2018
    redvenge wrote: »
    You cannot take the Iconians seriously because they want to lose. They are "throwing the match". They are not scary, or intimidating. They are stupid.
    Your entire post ignores the fact that the Iconians didn't want to kill everyone in the galaxy, nor did they want to entirely destroy the functionality of all the worlds who stood up to them, they simply wanted to take over everyone in the galaxy for much of the same reasons why The Dominion do. Entirely destroying the infrastructure of world you plan to take over is counter productive to the overall goal.

    As for the gateway tech, given that they never do it, we can infer that they can't open gateways inside ships easily. The Iconians needed the Borg to bring some of their tech onto their ship before they could portal the inside out.
    Post edited by somtaawkhar on
  • somtaawkharsomtaawkhar Member Posts: 5,321 Arc User
    edited December 2018
    patrickngo wrote: »
    YOU, using 'Flanderizing' in a sentence?

    while missing the obvious point; that 'Growth" does NOT require "become just another Federation/Starfleet Utopianist shill".

    You want everyone to admire Picard, to imitate Data, to listen to jazz and not eat meat unless it's replicated-because that's what we're really discussing here-it's clear you don't like any of the parts that make Klingons distinctive and different as a culture, their divisiveness shows they're not a monoculture, especially not a 'let's all get along' monoculture.

    In modern terms, they could do everything I describe without 'flanderizing' them if you just understand something basic about what makes Klingons different.

    In a galaxy of Hamiltonian idealists, they're a bunch of Jacksonian individualists, it's the difference between Woodrow Wilson (Starfleet) and Teddy Roosevelt (The Klingons), one sits placidly and talks about his fourteen points and the other answers hostage taking by saying, "release them unharmed or we'll declare them heroes and kill you."

    This is the fundamental difference in the character of the two cultures-the Klingon-being-different really does make extortion difficult by killing the extortionist, they cooperate with others-but only on their own terms.

    And that's not 'flanderizing' that's having enough of a difference to justify having it as a player, rather than NPC, faction.
    This entire argument is based on the straw man that anyone suggested Klingons have to become exactly like the Federation, when no one has suggested that.

    The growth of Klingon culture will likely lead them to becoming what they were going to be in the undeveloped "Star Trek: Federation" was going to have them become. More mystical warrior-monk like people rather then the more bloodthristy viking-samurai they are now. They still retain their warrior nature(indeed the Klingon Ambassador in "Time and Tide" is pretty much the only one kicking TRIBBLE when the Krenim attack, while all the others are cowering), but without the constant need for bloody combat to feel like they accomplished anything. They would be as culturally similar to the other Federation species as Humans are to Vulcans(aka not at all) but their culture would also not be in any way contrary to that of the other Federation species.

    I also hate Picard and think hes, by far, the worst of the main series captains because he cares more about moralizing then actually doing whats right and necessary to ensure everyone doesn't die.
    patrickngo wrote: »
    Let's look at this;

    1. Kagran is an Idiot.
    2. "Glory! Honor! I've shat my pants!!"

    do you get it yet? Cryptic's work on the GAME END shows NO growth or progress, they've flanderized the Klingons into a planet-of-hats already, if anything, following suggestions like some of the ones here that aren't yours would alleviate the one-dimensionalist portrayal significantly-because Klingons could have different opinions in the GAME. as opposed to what they are now, which is Starfleet's Drunken long haired buddy with an impulse control problem.
    None of these things are true

    Kagran was actually the most morally correct person in the whole damn Iconian arc. Not willing to violate everything all of the combined races stand for without first at least trying to see if they could beat the Iconians the normal way(as basic moral dictate), and then making that same decision after learning the truth of the Iconians, makes him the most morally right person in the WHOLE GAME THUS FAR. It's actually rather pathetic on the Federation's part to get upstaged in their own department, by a Klingon no less.

    Out of the three major factions, Klingons have generally been the most restrained.
    patrickngo wrote: »
    The faction needs it's own priorities, not just "Glory, Honor! Bloodwine!!!" but some real priorities, internal debates, even internal fighting over where the Empire is going, and with leaders on both (or all) sides who are actually worth following because they think past their own personal advancement as leaders should to be worth following.
    We already got that with the whole Torg thing, and we are getting it again with J'Ula. The traditionalist "BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD!" Klingons vs the more progressive Klingons willing to partake in diplomacy and make friends under people like Martok and J'mpok.

    Literally clashes of self destructive traditionalism vs sustainable progressiveness.
    patrickngo wrote: »
    We need to SEE the Gorn's internal struggle as clients as well-not just "rebel gorn encounter" in sector space, but some stories focusing on where the Gorn fit into the Empire, where their internal struggles come from, why Slaathis is not working night-and-day to throw the Klingons out, hell, we don't know, maybe the gorn people are getting somethign from being in the Empire, maybe the unregulated Klingon economy has given them a sudden surge of prosperity, new directions of advancement, even solved long-standing problems with the removal of a corrupt government.
    No, they don't need to show this. The Klingons gave the Gorn self rule, a seat on the High Council, and being part of the Empire has given the Gorn access to the Klingon's trade network, and now, as part of the Alliance get access to the entire Alliance's trade network, and all the super cool tech the Alliance has developed via all the reputation systems from the Borg arc onward. You ask why Slaathis isn't working to kick the Klingons out when the real question is, given the situation, why would he?

    There is a reason why a "Gorn Rebellion" plot has been as openly mocked as a "whale probe" plot by even Cryptic. Because it doesn't make sense. The Gorn Rebel DSEs exist because there would logically be some group of people angry that they were "taken over" no matter how much it benefits their society, and would fight against it, and those DSEs represent that.
    patrickngo wrote: »
    See, you don't really understand the benefits of a culture that isn't highly-centralized with bureaus that invade every aspect of people's lives 'for their own good'. All you appear to believe in is the utopian ideal of putting everyoen under the same blue-suited boot, mouthing the same platitudes.
    I have never advocated for this, and this is a complete straw man.
    patrickngo wrote: »
    But the Klingon way can be different, it presents the possibility of individual action, of individualist ideals and a contrast to the collectivist Utopia of the Federation that gives both more depth-more 'gray' to the morality of the game, and that could broaden the appeal of the setting beyond 'safe spaces' college students who imagine attacks and hyperventilate over a lost election or blue-noses who get offended and imagine the objects of their moral panic around every corner.
    I'm not going to try to delve too far into this, but this seems like you are letting real world political peeves get in the way of talking about a totally unrelated video game. You need to stop, back up, and reevaluate.
  • thevampinatorthevampinator Member Posts: 425 Arc User
    edited December 2018
    Well there is bias some against the Klingon faction . Heck they don't even get their own Discovery Faction. Something they should have done maybe they will but for now focusing on the federation side of it. When they go more into the Klingon Side of Thing on Discovery as we know they have been doing. Cryptic might just add more content for the Klingons. We know they said they are going to add in the discovery Klingon models I'm hoping it will be in January. My feeling is this they are building up to the Galactic Union they are doing this because well its easier. Basically how I see it is this, Federation and Klingon Empire alliance are being held together with the Romulan Republic as Glue. They are building up alliances and found they are stronger together. With the Ds9 Update they decided to bring back Martok. Since they had him killed off they used Torg as a plotline to say he never died. Jmpak was left in a bit of a bind, after the destruction of the High Council. The High Council would have to be rebuilt. Not to mention the Klingon's relied heavily on the Federation for Supplies, ever since the praxis disaster. The way the federation operates give it a lot of strength lots and lots of resources. Compared to the Klingon Empire. The Undine War and the Iconian assault on Kronos, and all the other wars and resources spent. Has left the Empire in Dire Straights. Then you have J'Ula who like her brother really hates the Federation hates what the Empire has become and there is many that feel the same way she does. But all three factions have reason to worry about her as well. She has the secrets to the Federation tech including the Spore Drive itself. It wouldn't take her too long to figure it out I think being in the twenty fifth century. It would explain why the Three factions are so Worried. They know the damage she could do if she was to figure it all out. It might even be the major factor in why it was so classified to begin with. The Klingon's knew about it and had reason to fear it. With J'Ula's return this technology is once more becoming out of storage. Then the Dire straights the Klingon empire is in cannot handle a Civil war. Which is why they are having us do the simulation and showed us what she stole.
  • patrickngopatrickngo Member Posts: 9,757 Arc User
    patrickngo wrote: »
    YOU, using 'Flanderizing' in a sentence?

    while missing the obvious point; that 'Growth" does NOT require "become just another Federation/Starfleet Utopianist shill".

    You want everyone to admire Picard, to imitate Data, to listen to jazz and not eat meat unless it's replicated-because that's what we're really discussing here-it's clear you don't like any of the parts that make Klingons distinctive and different as a culture, their divisiveness shows they're not a monoculture, especially not a 'let's all get along' monoculture.

    In modern terms, they could do everything I describe without 'flanderizing' them if you just understand something basic about what makes Klingons different.

    In a galaxy of Hamiltonian idealists, they're a bunch of Jacksonian individualists, it's the difference between Woodrow Wilson (Starfleet) and Teddy Roosevelt (The Klingons), one sits placidly and talks about his fourteen points and the other answers hostage taking by saying, "release them unharmed or we'll declare them heroes and kill you."

    This is the fundamental difference in the character of the two cultures-the Klingon-being-different really does make extortion difficult by killing the extortionist, they cooperate with others-but only on their own terms.

    And that's not 'flanderizing' that's having enough of a difference to justify having it as a player, rather than NPC, faction.
    This entire argument is based on the straw man that anyone suggested Klingons have to become exactly like the Federation, when no one has suggested that.

    The growth of Klingon culture will likely lead them to becoming what they were going to be in the undeveloped "Star Trek: Federation" was going to have them become. More mystical warrior-monk like people rather then the more bloodthristy viking-samurai they are now. They still retain their warrior nature(indeed the Klingon Ambassador in "Time and Tide" is pretty much the only one kicking TRIBBLE when the Krenim attack, while all the others are cowering), but without the constant need for bloody combat to feel like they accomplished anything. They would be as culturally similar to the other Federation species as Humans are to Vulcans(aka not at all) but their culture would also not be in any way contrary to that of the other Federation species.

    I also hate Picard and think hes, by far, the worst of the main series captains because he cares more about moralizing then actually doing whats right and necessary to ensure everyone doesn't die.
    patrickngo wrote: »
    Let's look at this;

    1. Kagran is an Idiot.
    2. "Glory! Honor! I've shat my pants!!"

    do you get it yet? Cryptic's work on the GAME END shows NO growth or progress, they've flanderized the Klingons into a planet-of-hats already, if anything, following suggestions like some of the ones here that aren't yours would alleviate the one-dimensionalist portrayal significantly-because Klingons could have different opinions in the GAME. as opposed to what they are now, which is Starfleet's Drunken long haired buddy with an impulse control problem.
    None of these things are true

    Kagran was actually the most morally correct person in the whole damn Iconian arc. Not willing to violate everything all of the combined races stand for without first at least trying to see if they could beat the Iconians the normal way(as basic moral dictate), and then making that same decision after learning the truth of the Iconians, makes him the most morally right person in the WHOLE GAME THUS FAR. It's actually rather pathetic on the Federation's part to get upstaged in their own department, by a Klingon no less.

    Out of the three major factions, Klingons have generally been the most restrained.
    patrickngo wrote: »
    The faction needs it's own priorities, not just "Glory, Honor! Bloodwine!!!" but some real priorities, internal debates, even internal fighting over where the Empire is going, and with leaders on both (or all) sides who are actually worth following because they think past their own personal advancement as leaders should to be worth following.
    We already got that with the whole Torg thing, and we are getting it again with J'Ula. The traditionalist "BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD!" Klingons vs the more progressive Klingons willing to partake in diplomacy and make friends under people like Martok and J'mpok.

    Literally clashes of self destructive traditionalism vs sustainable progressiveness.
    patrickngo wrote: »
    We need to SEE the Gorn's internal struggle as clients as well-not just "rebel gorn encounter" in sector space, but some stories focusing on where the Gorn fit into the Empire, where their internal struggles come from, why Slaathis is not working night-and-day to throw the Klingons out, hell, we don't know, maybe the gorn people are getting somethign from being in the Empire, maybe the unregulated Klingon economy has given them a sudden surge of prosperity, new directions of advancement, even solved long-standing problems with the removal of a corrupt government.
    No, they don't need to show this. The Klingons gave the Gorn self rule, a seat on the High Council, and being part of the Empire has given the Gorn access to the Klingon's trade network, and now, as part of the Alliance get access to the entire Alliance's trade network, and all the super cool tech the Alliance has developed via all the reputation systems from the Borg arc onward. You ask why Slaathis isn't working to kick the Klingons out when the real question is, given the situation, why would he?

    There is a reason why a "Gorn Rebellion" plot has been as openly mocked as a "whale probe" plot by even Cryptic. Because it doesn't make sense. The Gorn Rebel DSEs exist because there would logically be some group of people angry that they were "taken over" no matter how much it benefits their society, and would fight against it, and those DSEs represent that.
    patrickngo wrote: »
    See, you don't really understand the benefits of a culture that isn't highly-centralized with bureaus that invade every aspect of people's lives 'for their own good'. All you appear to believe in is the utopian ideal of putting everyoen under the same blue-suited boot, mouthing the same platitudes.
    I have never advocated for this, and this is a complete straw man.
    patrickngo wrote: »
    But the Klingon way can be different, it presents the possibility of individual action, of individualist ideals and a contrast to the collectivist Utopia of the Federation that gives both more depth-more 'gray' to the morality of the game, and that could broaden the appeal of the setting beyond 'safe spaces' college students who imagine attacks and hyperventilate over a lost election or blue-noses who get offended and imagine the objects of their moral panic around every corner.
    I'm not going to try to delve too far into this, but this seems like you are letting real world political peeves get in the way of talking about a totally unrelated video game. You need to stop, back up, and reevaluate.

    Kagran's 'grand strategy' was "Run at the enemy in their fortified position wwhere they outnumber you and have a technology advantage, in the open, like lemmings." This is not brilliance, unless you're trying to get your own soldiers killed and score 'own side goals'. every move we see in-game, shows the man is completely incompetent as a commander, more akin to Ambrose Burnside than George Patton, ergo, he's an idiot. That anyone bought off on his 'strategy' shows that the politicians are even less competent.

    further, Kahless being incompetent was shown in the clone episode, but his rank wasn't earned to begin with, and he was only accepted by Gowron (and later Martok) as a symbolic ruler with no real power-for a reason.

    but Kagran? was an idiot. a moron. He might've had the right morality for the Federation to find him acceptable as an interim but his 'tactics' were moronic and stupid and suicidal. we can lay some of that on a writing staff that is totally and completely unfamiliar with tactics or strategy, but it doesn't change the fact only an idiot or someone with godmode plot armor would go with his 'tactics'.

    Simply put, Kagran tried to brute-force in the open, against an enemy with better equipment, more troops in a better position who knew he was coming.

    That'sn ot brilliant, that's fundamentally moronic.

    I stand by my statement; Cryptic has already flanderized teh Klingons into a bunch of idiots.
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