I dunno.. I am casual.. ultra casual.. and my gear is super bad.. but I have 2 max levels characters and I am working on several more while I level up and enjoy the story line. The other players are generally helpful and nice.. this is such a better alternative then those other MMO games.
The Elder Scrolls Online, that has rather great possibility to build a character, introduced at some point the suggested builds per each class. We could easily have 1-3 types of builds per career for example. It could actually help new players.
Having said that - I've never been a min-max kind of a player. I simply go with the flow, try things, and see what works for me. It's never about the optimal performance, but the most fun performance for me.
It is hard enough getting new players to join STO, nevermind like it and stick around long enough to buy and spend Zen.
This game has the most complicated "Build" mechanic of all the MMOs I've tried. And even then the really simple ones usually have some kind of 'default build' function to allow players to just 'get' the right skills for a build.
Between the captains skills, traits, ship selection, weapon layout, consoles, DOFFs and BOFFs I can't see this game retaining the casual players that, even if they don't spend, add to the social atmosphere that keeps the game alive enough to keep the whales playing. Good grief the default equipment on a ship is so bloody far off anything even remotely optimal you can't even use it to clear normal difficulty episode content without respawning over and over.
This game needs something to help the new players master all this out.
An accessible database of ship builds pulled from other players?
Some standardized build templates a player can choose?
A sensible default loadout on newly purchased ships?
Even just a tooltip that computes and shows the effective dps, survivability and regeneration numbers a piece of equipment should grant.
This is going to be a bit long winded so bear with me. Respectfully, I don't think you understand and have all the information as to why some of the changes were made to WoW and SWTOR to start with. I've played WoW for years though have taken a bit of a break for the last little bit. I also played very briefly in the closed beta of SWTOR and I am also a founder in that game. I say that not to toot my own horn but to give you an idea of how long I've been around games like that, and possibly how little of a life I sometimes have as well lols. Joking aside and such, there are actually some very big reasons that alot of those changes were made to give people their core skills up front and so on.
In the earlier days of WoW such as Wrath of the Lich King it used to be that you were given roughly 80 skill points to invest into your toon and you had access to each of the 3 specs your class could perform. It took about 71 skill points to max out a spec leaving you 9 to play with and invest in an "off spec" or sorts. In my case as a Death Knight tank I would invest most of my points into blood spec tanking and then take the other 9 points and invest 5 into frost spec, and the other 4 into unholy. Ordinarily that's what you were supposed to do is they let you pick up a few little tid bits from the other specs. However they quickly ran into a problem. Because it let you split your points among the 3 specs like that, the blizzard devs quickly ran into issues where folks weren't maxing out their specs like they were intended to do, leading to things like the creation of what we called Proly Paladins. These were characters that had invested half their points into the Protection tank tree, and the other half in the Holy healing tree. This meant they had virtually all of the damage reduction and survival of a dedicated tank and all of the healing ability of a dedicated healer. They were literally unkillable no matter what you did. In fact I was part of a group of 20 that jumped one of those Proly Paladins in a pvp situation and even though we all had equal gear to him, he was literally unkillable because he had access to abilities that were never meant to be used together.
Because people would mix and match their specs like that, this made it impossible for the blizzard devs to balance the game out in any sort of reasonable fashion. If they nerfed some of the abilities on the Holy tree they would also be hitting dedicated healers who depend on some of those powers. If they hit the Protection abilities, they would also be hitting the dedicated tanks as well. In cataclysm they changed it so that you had to max out your spec and take the last talent of your chosen spec before you could even touch another tree. This killed the Proly Paladins and things like them, but it didn't completely remove the issues they were seeing. Now they had an issue to where again folks were missing certain core powers they were meant to have and the game was balanced around them having, because they would just hurry to get that last talent and not care what they were putting points into. It was the next expac in Pandaria that specs were changed forever and the traditional trees were done away with. Now folks were given all the powers and abilities their class was meant to have, and were given several optional powers to pick from in the new spec trees. Each choice was a viable option and there was no cookie cutter option you had to follow. Thus now folks had everything in their toolkits they were meant to have and the game could actually be balanced. SWTOR had a few similar issues though in their case since folks didn't originally pick their class until level 10, they ran into issues where folks would get to max level having never picked their class, thus they were just the baseline Warrior, Knight, etc and again making it impossible to balance around that stuff. It also put those players at a disadvantage because they were missing about half their toolkit.
That's much more of a history lesson than I wanted to give but I think it was warranted. The post by our own Ambassador Kael asking what could be taught better, was one of Cryptic's ways at possibly addressing this issue. When they know what folks are having difficulty with, then they can produce more tailored guides and tutorials to those needs. The starter builds you get on most ships I agree aren't the greatest. From what I've always been told is that those builds are simply to show people what kinds of weapons they can use on that particular ship and are purely place holders.
A key thing to consider with STO is that the ships in this game are simply empty shells with varying base properties. What you load them with and how you fly them determines how effective they will be. For me I enjoy tanking with my Cardassian Keldon. However another person who prefers more sci based stuff may not like it. Not everyone is going to like every ship out there and not everyone is going to prefer to fly the same way. Also not everyone is going to want to use the same energy type either. Where as I prefer polaron and tetryon because I'm weird like that, other folks may not. So "default builds" in this instance aren't going to be as practical as you might think. The best anyone could really do is say "here's a basic idea for a cannon build, and here's one for a beam build." Beyond that there's not much else you could do as there's so much variety in STO.
In terms of the tooltips, you already have a portion of the tooltips that show on weapons how much damage on paper they should be doing. you also see how much healing and resistances that those items can grant as well. The big problem you're going to have though is that what's on paper isn't always going to match what happens in the field under live fire. What's on paper assumes the most ideal and best case scenario and you won't always have that in the field. On paper numbers also don't take into account the skill of the pilot, the mission etc. It simply assumes, what could we end up with in the most ideal scenario.
Finally to the biggest thing here. I have no issues helping people that legitimately want the help and are willing to learn. In fact I have given build advise to some folks on this very forum before, and quite often give that same help in my teamspeak server as well as in game to fleetmates and folks that ask for it. At the end of the day though, I'm not a mind reader. I can't help folks if I don't know they need it and if they're not willing to accept it. Most folks I'm sure would rather take a few extra minutes to explain something to someone than have a bad time in a run or so on. It ultimately requires a little give and take. Guides, videos, and so on can be pumped out into the airwaves all day long, but if folks aren't willing to use them then it won't help them. Most folks I would dare say are willing to help folks that need it, but eventually I expect the folks I help to be able to stand on their own 2 feet as well as I'm not always going to be there to help them.
"Someone once told me that time was a predator that stalked us all our lives. I rather believe that time is a companion who goes with us on the journey and reminds us to cherish every moment, because it will never come again." - Jean Luc Picard in Star Trek Generations
Diablo III is not a MMO. But the leaderboards show literally every characters build. Other sites harvest this to filter out the current meta.
Wow likewise has an online armory that players can visit to see each others builds.
RIFT is the original WoW killer - it doesn't show other players builds, but it DOES have a selection of community submitted preset builds builds that, while not meta level stuff, provide newbies in a hurry with a baseline to build off of an extend.
Diablo III is not a MMO. But the leaderboards show literally every characters build. Other sites harvest this to filter out the current meta.
Wow likewise has an online armory that players can visit to see each others builds.
RIFT is the original WoW killer - it doesn't show other players builds, but it DOES have a selection of community submitted preset builds builds that, while not meta level stuff, provide newbies in a hurry with a baseline to build off of an extend.
Ok.... we have an entire section of the official forum for that stuff though...
Irrespective of whether the game should depend on player initiative to learn game mechanics, seek out sources (like message boards, youtube videos, and such), and in game community resources like fleets, what we ought to have is a testing area where a player can go and try out different builds.
Right now, there's no place a new player can really go to try out different gear - ground or space. I'm not suggesting a tribble server inside the main game, but maybe something like a quickly replayable holodeck where you can run different setups quickly and easily. New players aren't going to know to quit Japoori or Argala before finishing the final wave to avoid the cooldown. The ground battlezones, like Kobali, are confounded by the arrival of other players.
Part of the welcome to ESD and tutorial should be introduction to a replayable holo simulation for ground and space that provides an opportunity to test builds.
Part of the welcome to ESD and tutorial should be introduction to a replayable holo simulation for ground and space that provides an opportunity to test builds.
You know....there are things like that in the Foundry....if they ever get the dang thing fixed.
If it ever comes back up....check the Foundry search for missions labeled with Test or Fleet. Some Fleets build these missions for their members to use for test purposes. But there is no restrictions on who can use them once they are published.
"Spend your life doing strange things with weird people." -- UNK
“Tell me and I forget. Teach me and I remember. Involve me and I learn.” -- Benjamin Franklin
Part of the welcome to ESD and tutorial should be introduction to a replayable holo simulation for ground and space that provides an opportunity to test builds.
You know....there are things like that in the Foundry....if they ever get the dang thing fixed.
If it ever comes back up....check the Foundry search for missions labeled with Test or Fleet. Some Fleets build these missions for their members to use for test purposes. But there is no restrictions on who can use them once they are published.
The problem with the Foundry missions is that newer players are not going to be able to find appropriate ones to conduct tests. They are also more for grinding or accolades, than testing equipment. You'd want a more systematic assortment of enemies - shielded, unshielded, mobs, large single target, as well as enemies firing different weapons at you.
You need to be able to enter the test area, mess around for a bit with various weapons and gear, then exit, then immediately re-enter to test a different piece of equipment or setup. More like shooting range (that fires back), than mission or grinding.
Funny...I distinctly remember running Foundry missions that were specifically for testing before. ??? Did they all disappear?? Maybe if it comes back up, again....I can take a looksy for those types of missions, again. I can't believe Cryptic bothered to remove anything, mission wise, from the Foundry. It would be a lot of work.
And why wouldn't new players be able to find Foundry missions? I was a new player I found them.
If you want a foundry mission built to your specs.....you can try to learn to use the Foundry and make it yourself. It is hard though, I tried a couple of times. My Fleet leader did one for me...because I wanted something to practice ground stuff. Build a Foundry mission that works the way you like...and anyone can access it, you know.
The Foundry was sooo widely used at one time..... and is integrated all over this game because people used it. That is why the doors with starting points in the social and sector space zones. I can't believe players and devs have allowed this thing to languish....to the point people complain "This Isn't In the Game".
"Spend your life doing strange things with weird people." -- UNK
“Tell me and I forget. Teach me and I remember. Involve me and I learn.” -- Benjamin Franklin
Funny...I distinctly remember running Foundry missions that were specifically for testing before. ??? Did they all disappear?? Maybe if it comes back up, again....I can take a looksy for those types of missions, again. I can't believe Cryptic bothered to remove anything, mission wise, from the Foundry. It would be a lot of work.
And why wouldn't new players be able to find Foundry missions? I was a new player I found them.
If you want a foundry mission built to your specs.....you can try to learn to use the Foundry and make it yourself. It is hard though, I tried a couple of times. My Fleet leader did one for me...because I wanted something to practice ground stuff. Build a Foundry mission that works the way you like...and anyone can access it, you know.
The Foundry was sooo widely used at one time..... and is integrated all over this game because people used it. That is why the doors with starting points in the social and sector space zones. I can't believe players and devs have allowed this thing to languish....to the point people complain "This Isn't In the Game".
Personally, I don't need any such thing, but thanks for the suggestion.
I was merely commenting on the broader topic of new players and builds. As I noted, the debate about how much support new players need is incomplete if they don't have a convenient and easily usable way to test out the builds they put together.
Why wouldn't a new player be able to find them - apart from the relatively frequent inaccessibility of foundry missions? The earlier portions of this thread seemed to argue more broadly that there is a level of complexity associated with many aspects of the game that newer players would be overwhelmed. A "holodeck" tutorial that gave immediate and direct access to such a build testing area could reduce much of that information overload and provide a suitable area for "practicing" more broadly - a simple message that says "come back whenever you want to test new equipment."
I never claimed there wasn't something similar in the game. I said that it was difficult to locate appropriate missions that allow for a wide range of testing. Now, we can differ on opinions about whether missions are easy to find and offer a sufficient range of testing, that is a wholly separate issue. But, the search function in the foundry is not particularly robust - unless you know what you're looking for in the first place. And there is lot more content and game complexity that has been added in the last few years, making it a bit more complicated if you're coming at it from scratch today than when many of us probably started.
it would be nice if you could click on another captain's avatar and "inspect" how they are built.
We had such a thing a while back via the functionality of the STO gateway. Was interesting to see why players got me in PvP often until I disabled that.
Looking for a fun PvE fleet? Join us at Omega Combat Division today.
...what we ought to have is a testing area where a player can go and try out different builds...
Grab a buddy and enter a 1v1 PvP map. Infinitely replayable, controllable as to the gear and tactics of both ships, and you can stop in the middle and switch out stuff to see before and after results.
I don't disagree that a training tutorial is a good idea. I advocate in favor of these 'training holograms.' I mean, put the holodecks to use somewhere other than Hathlon!
It is hard enough getting new players to join STO, nevermind like it and stick around long enough to buy and spend Zen.
This game has the most complicated "Build" mechanic of all the MMOs I've tried. And even then the really simple ones usually have some kind of 'default build' function to allow players to just 'get' the right skills for a build.
Between the captains skills, traits, ship selection, weapon layout, consoles, DOFFs and BOFFs I can't see this game retaining the casual players that, even if they don't spend, add to the social atmosphere that keeps the game alive enough to keep the whales playing. Good grief the default equipment on a ship is so bloody far off anything even remotely optimal you can't even use it to clear normal difficulty episode content without respawning over and over.
This game needs something to help the new players master all this out.
An accessible database of ship builds pulled from other players?
Some standardized build templates a player can choose?
A sensible default loadout on newly purchased ships?
Even just a tooltip that computes and shows the effective dps, survivability and regeneration numbers a piece of equipment should grant.
I dont want to sound rude I think your name obviously saying "I hate PWE" has to do with that post. I mean you may rightfully have things you hate on PWE(we all do) but you are pointing the wrong reasons. STO has a lot to be desiredbut its more visible advantage its fast to get max level(playing casually 2 months tops), have a decent setup and dive into queues with max level players as a max level player. In short the very start of the "endgame" section is fast and easy to get to(though it can be a bit difficult to master but if it wasnt you would leave the game in few months due to no challenges). On contrary most mmo games tend to take half a year or more to get to that point. Generally because I play other 2 mmos too, STO is my "easy going" game.
If you mentioned:
1. Lag Spikes appear fairly often for a game that wants to label itself AAA
2. Ship variety especially in C-store is lacking. Its mostly focused on raptors/escorts and cruisers/battlecruisers
3. There is a lack of balance between classes and between ship types viability
4. All set gears except the most recent(gamma) cant be re-engineered. Same for mission sets
5. Every patch corrects 2-3 bugs and brings 1-2 new ones
6. There is a lot of Bias towards one single faction creating imbalance and even unrest to the rest to the point they lose players-clients
7. The only fun battleground(Dyson) is one of the oldest and the most rich, being better designed and having more things to do - even doffing. Rest range from mediocre to junk - instead learn from the success of a good battleground they tried to (unsuccessfully) reinvent the wheel
8. There is a lack of balance between items, ships, doffs of same tier or quality that got introduced in the past with those that are newer and still no effort is being done to renew
and of them and even more that havent thought of in the short time I wrote this responce and I would agree. I cant agree its difficulty for new players to get into. I will say however the bugs and rubberbanding can easily drive lots off if they come as first impression
> @ihatepwe735 said: > It is hard enough getting new players to join STO, nevermind like it and stick around long enough to buy and spend Zen. > > This game has the most complicated "Build" mechanic of all the MMOs I've tried. And even then the really simple ones usually have some kind of 'default build' function to allow players to just 'get' the right skills for a build. > > Between the captains skills, traits, ship selection, weapon layout, consoles, DOFFs and BOFFs I can't see this game retaining the casual players that, even if they don't spend, add to the social atmosphere that keeps the game alive enough to keep the whales playing. Good grief the default equipment on a ship is so bloody far off anything even remotely optimal you can't even use it to clear normal difficulty episode content without respawning over and over. > > This game needs something to help the new players master all this out. > An accessible database of ship builds pulled from other players? > Some standardized build templates a player can choose? > A sensible default loadout on newly purchased ships? > Even just a tooltip that computes and shows the effective dps, survivability and regeneration numbers a piece of equipment should grant.
I disagree this is an MMO it's meant to be a social experience 99% of the game has tooltips that do an ok job people get stuck it's expected that they will be social and ask for help.
If your someone who wants to min max then you are someone who will Google or ask for help.
I personally stopped min maxing as it's not fun... So I tend to do fun or thrmrs builds.
Also I play eve online and this game has a steaper learning curve and less hold handing and has no default builds...you get your ship and it's blank of you go.
TL;DR Read the quote, don't worry about skills and such until you know what you're doing, and if all else fails roll the dice and ask the dumb questions. The worst that could happen is people think you an idiot. Not the end of the world. Lol
People like you make STO worth playing. Thanks for the helpful response.
I agree with the Original Poster, I think you forum boys 'n girls have strange emotional responses when you're unable to articulate yourselves properly.
The point brought up here IS Valid, actually. (Sorry all of you who attack with snide attitude are in the wrong.)
BUT... it's tough. The reason the game is so complex is age. It's an old game now and so with that comes layers, like the layers of paint & wall paper in a century home. Do we gut the whole thing and renovate it to have a simpler clean UI and Tier system?
Ultimately I think not.
I was very intimidated by the tier and upgrade systems but I decided to sit down one day and really figure it out.
When I discovered I could upgrade weapons and consoles to Epic, it became a mini game in and of itself for me to select my favorite weapons and devices and make them shine golden. The sense of accomplishment was great, and knowing not everyone in game has my build in epic mode made it feel that much more unique.
While you forumers were attacking the OP, you all missed his POINT, to spite your Vulcan ears... instead of insinuating he is stupid, why don't you Pakleds address his concern?
Let me spell it out for you (do you like my tone? I'm just feeding back your tone to you, see how ugly it is?)
His point is: He cares about STO, like the rest of us and he wants to make sure it attracts as many new players as possible to keep it alive... And he believes that the complexity and learning curve of the game's evolved Scaling system is too complex for a broad audience. That's a perfectly valid concern and perhaps there's some room for minimization....
I considered his points and weighed them and ultimately I think the complexity adds to the game and gives a layer of depth.
For instance, you can get through the game with out really learning skills and upgrades especially well. (thats what I did initially)
Then at End Game I was enticed to come back and learn about skill tree's and upgrading etc. It kept me coming back and learning.
Be nicer in your attitudes. It's a sign of an evolved mind to have some level of decorum even online.
...what we ought to have is a testing area where a player can go and try out different builds...
Grab a buddy and enter a 1v1 PvP map. Infinitely replayable, controllable as to the gear and tactics of both ships, and you can stop in the middle and switch out stuff to see before and after results.
I don't disagree that a training tutorial is a good idea. I advocate in favor of these 'training holograms.' I mean, put the holodecks to use somewhere other than Hathlon!
The two biggest issues with grabbing a buddy to pvp are:
First, a new player may not have a buddy who has the time or patience to spend an hour testing various builds. Once again, it places the onus, not only on the original player to do a lot of the legwork, but also now puts it on a second player to assist. I agree that a pvp duel might provide some information, but it wouldn't allow for testing offense/defense AoE mechanics against mobs.
The second problem goes to the issue of in-game complexity for new players. In order to run a pvp match, you'd have to train people how to do pvp. While obviously not that complicated, it's just one more bit of complexity that a new player has to learn.
The premise of the OP was essentially: 1)The game is very complex; 2) the game doesn't do enough to train people how to master that complexity. The subsequent debate and comparisons to other MMOs is a bit off target in that it hinges on whether the majority of new players play MMOs. I'd bet it's more ST fans, than MMO fans who play this game (I mean, c'mon would true MMO fans find the mechanics of this game "robust").
The addition of more new player training doesn't do any harm to other players unless lowering the learning curve somehow impedes other players. It's not like any new player training would become mandatory to the existing players. The biggest objection I can think of is that it could potentially draw developer resources away from the main game for some period of time - a very valid point given current issues in the game. But, beyond that, the question of whether the mechanics are so off-putting that new players quit is a factual question whose answer is unknown.
Be nicer in your attitudes. It's a sign of an evolved mind to have some level of decorum even online.
That goes for people asking questions too. Barfing rage onto the forum invites people to tell you where to stick your "problem". Is the OP worded that way? not really, the thread title though...
The addition of more new player training doesn't do any harm to other players unless lowering the learning curve somehow impedes other players. It's not like any new player training would become mandatory to the existing players. The biggest objection I can think of is that it could potentially draw developer resources away from the main game for some period of time - a very valid point given current issues in the game. But, beyond that, the question of whether the mechanics are so off-putting that new players quit is a factual question whose answer is unknown.
The actual problem with "more new player training" is that there isn't really that much more the game could teach. The information is already there, and all the game could do more is shove it at the players' faces more forcefully.
Like, explicitly telling players tac consoles and boff abilities matching weapons is a thing. Personally, I think it's kind of obvious when you find items and abilities that boost a specific kind of weapon that you use the boosts and the weapons together. But I suppose someone might need stuff like that spelled out for them.
What the game CAN'T do is teach the metagame. That tutorial would be obsolete already before it's even released.
I was merely commenting on the broader topic of new players and builds. As I noted, the debate about how much support new players need is incomplete if they don't have a convenient and easily usable way to test out the builds they put together.
I don't feel it is a problem with "Build" help at all. Because it is there, if they look.
The problem is before a player can even get into "builds", they have to understand how things work at the core level. And I don't mean the motion, the UI, keyboard short cuts...etc..
+++++++++++++
Builds has always been handled by players talking to players.
In the forums, in the game, in Fleets and play testing on their own and with their teams and friends.
I don't ever think the Devs ever did well with teaching "builds" (or making them). Builds are a player creation and the players are the authority. And Devs, definitely, can not keep up with players on that subject. Players just spend more time playing the game and experimenting.
"Spend your life doing strange things with weird people." -- UNK
“Tell me and I forget. Teach me and I remember. Involve me and I learn.” -- Benjamin Franklin
The premise of the OP was essentially: 1)The game is very complex; 2) the game doesn't do enough to train people how to master that complexity.
What this sounds like to me is: He was given the wrong information for what he was looking for. And someone went talking over his head about builds.
This goes back to: not being shown the core basics of the game....but being thrown "build" help. Sometimes people are given complex builds to attain......when they are looking for is "how all this stuff works together".
"Spend your life doing strange things with weird people." -- UNK
“Tell me and I forget. Teach me and I remember. Involve me and I learn.” -- Benjamin Franklin
I think the vast majority of players don't actually know how it all works together. We learn from others what works, and if it doesn't or if it stops being effective in a given situation we go find out what does work there and use that.
There is a small core of players who actually grind the numbers and work out how everything integrates, and they lead the DPS leagues or (formerly) the PvP leagues. Then they pass down their hard won knowledge and the rest of us copy them.
So when someone asks how everything works together and gets build advice, that's probably the best the answerer can do. I know if I tried to answer the theory of how it all works my answer would be less than satisfactory, and I've been around for a while now.
About those Lag Spikes, they've Tweeted out not to use the Beacon of Kahless because it is causing them.
'But to be logical is not to be right', and 'nothing' on God's earth could ever 'make it' right!'
Judge Dan Haywood
'As l speak now, the words are forming in my head.
l don't know.
l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
I know if I tried to answer the theory of how it all works my answer would be less than satisfactory, and I've been around for a while now.
Quit being a cop out.
You CAN bring clarity. Pass along what works for you. But then tell them WHY it works. HOW it works. And, instead of getting rants on how horribly difficult things are....they get an idea of what to ask.
You know how things go together on a more advanced level than a new player. You know how the core mechanics work. New players need THAT explained to them. So, they can figure out how they can use it. What to look for.
Don't pawn it all off to players who "know more than me" and have "done all the math".
It is not really fair to heap all this at the feet of the "worthy" and shovel it on top of the Devs.
Especially, the basics. That is on everyone.
Even if it is just passing along the pertinent Wiki page, or article written in STO Builds, or a You Tube video. No one is expecting you to have it memorized and recite it off the top of your head.
IOW...it is something we can all do to make things better.
"Spend your life doing strange things with weird people." -- UNK
“Tell me and I forget. Teach me and I remember. Involve me and I learn.” -- Benjamin Franklin
The premise of the OP was essentially: 1)The game is very complex; 2) the game doesn't do enough to train people how to master that complexity.
What this sounds like to me is: He was given the wrong information for what he was looking for. And someone went talking over his head about builds.
This goes back to: not being shown the core basics of the game....but being thrown "build" help. Sometimes people are given complex builds to attain......when they are looking for is "how all this stuff works together".
You can learn 90% of the game mechanics by reading the tutorial and, more importantly, reading the tooltips of all the items/skills/passives.
Comments
Having said that - I've never been a min-max kind of a player. I simply go with the flow, try things, and see what works for me. It's never about the optimal performance, but the most fun performance for me.
This is going to be a bit long winded so bear with me. Respectfully, I don't think you understand and have all the information as to why some of the changes were made to WoW and SWTOR to start with. I've played WoW for years though have taken a bit of a break for the last little bit. I also played very briefly in the closed beta of SWTOR and I am also a founder in that game. I say that not to toot my own horn but to give you an idea of how long I've been around games like that, and possibly how little of a life I sometimes have as well lols. Joking aside and such, there are actually some very big reasons that alot of those changes were made to give people their core skills up front and so on.
In the earlier days of WoW such as Wrath of the Lich King it used to be that you were given roughly 80 skill points to invest into your toon and you had access to each of the 3 specs your class could perform. It took about 71 skill points to max out a spec leaving you 9 to play with and invest in an "off spec" or sorts. In my case as a Death Knight tank I would invest most of my points into blood spec tanking and then take the other 9 points and invest 5 into frost spec, and the other 4 into unholy. Ordinarily that's what you were supposed to do is they let you pick up a few little tid bits from the other specs. However they quickly ran into a problem. Because it let you split your points among the 3 specs like that, the blizzard devs quickly ran into issues where folks weren't maxing out their specs like they were intended to do, leading to things like the creation of what we called Proly Paladins. These were characters that had invested half their points into the Protection tank tree, and the other half in the Holy healing tree. This meant they had virtually all of the damage reduction and survival of a dedicated tank and all of the healing ability of a dedicated healer. They were literally unkillable no matter what you did. In fact I was part of a group of 20 that jumped one of those Proly Paladins in a pvp situation and even though we all had equal gear to him, he was literally unkillable because he had access to abilities that were never meant to be used together.
Because people would mix and match their specs like that, this made it impossible for the blizzard devs to balance the game out in any sort of reasonable fashion. If they nerfed some of the abilities on the Holy tree they would also be hitting dedicated healers who depend on some of those powers. If they hit the Protection abilities, they would also be hitting the dedicated tanks as well. In cataclysm they changed it so that you had to max out your spec and take the last talent of your chosen spec before you could even touch another tree. This killed the Proly Paladins and things like them, but it didn't completely remove the issues they were seeing. Now they had an issue to where again folks were missing certain core powers they were meant to have and the game was balanced around them having, because they would just hurry to get that last talent and not care what they were putting points into. It was the next expac in Pandaria that specs were changed forever and the traditional trees were done away with. Now folks were given all the powers and abilities their class was meant to have, and were given several optional powers to pick from in the new spec trees. Each choice was a viable option and there was no cookie cutter option you had to follow. Thus now folks had everything in their toolkits they were meant to have and the game could actually be balanced. SWTOR had a few similar issues though in their case since folks didn't originally pick their class until level 10, they ran into issues where folks would get to max level having never picked their class, thus they were just the baseline Warrior, Knight, etc and again making it impossible to balance around that stuff. It also put those players at a disadvantage because they were missing about half their toolkit.
That's much more of a history lesson than I wanted to give but I think it was warranted. The post by our own Ambassador Kael asking what could be taught better, was one of Cryptic's ways at possibly addressing this issue. When they know what folks are having difficulty with, then they can produce more tailored guides and tutorials to those needs. The starter builds you get on most ships I agree aren't the greatest. From what I've always been told is that those builds are simply to show people what kinds of weapons they can use on that particular ship and are purely place holders.
A key thing to consider with STO is that the ships in this game are simply empty shells with varying base properties. What you load them with and how you fly them determines how effective they will be. For me I enjoy tanking with my Cardassian Keldon. However another person who prefers more sci based stuff may not like it. Not everyone is going to like every ship out there and not everyone is going to prefer to fly the same way. Also not everyone is going to want to use the same energy type either. Where as I prefer polaron and tetryon because I'm weird like that, other folks may not. So "default builds" in this instance aren't going to be as practical as you might think. The best anyone could really do is say "here's a basic idea for a cannon build, and here's one for a beam build." Beyond that there's not much else you could do as there's so much variety in STO.
In terms of the tooltips, you already have a portion of the tooltips that show on weapons how much damage on paper they should be doing. you also see how much healing and resistances that those items can grant as well. The big problem you're going to have though is that what's on paper isn't always going to match what happens in the field under live fire. What's on paper assumes the most ideal and best case scenario and you won't always have that in the field. On paper numbers also don't take into account the skill of the pilot, the mission etc. It simply assumes, what could we end up with in the most ideal scenario.
Finally to the biggest thing here. I have no issues helping people that legitimately want the help and are willing to learn. In fact I have given build advise to some folks on this very forum before, and quite often give that same help in my teamspeak server as well as in game to fleetmates and folks that ask for it. At the end of the day though, I'm not a mind reader. I can't help folks if I don't know they need it and if they're not willing to accept it. Most folks I'm sure would rather take a few extra minutes to explain something to someone than have a bad time in a run or so on. It ultimately requires a little give and take. Guides, videos, and so on can be pumped out into the airwaves all day long, but if folks aren't willing to use them then it won't help them. Most folks I would dare say are willing to help folks that need it, but eventually I expect the folks I help to be able to stand on their own 2 feet as well as I'm not always going to be there to help them.
Star Trek Online volunteer Community Moderator
Wow likewise has an online armory that players can visit to see each others builds.
RIFT is the original WoW killer - it doesn't show other players builds, but it DOES have a selection of community submitted preset builds builds that, while not meta level stuff, provide newbies in a hurry with a baseline to build off of an extend.
My character Tsin'xing
Right now, there's no place a new player can really go to try out different gear - ground or space. I'm not suggesting a tribble server inside the main game, but maybe something like a quickly replayable holodeck where you can run different setups quickly and easily. New players aren't going to know to quit Japoori or Argala before finishing the final wave to avoid the cooldown. The ground battlezones, like Kobali, are confounded by the arrival of other players.
Part of the welcome to ESD and tutorial should be introduction to a replayable holo simulation for ground and space that provides an opportunity to test builds.
You know....there are things like that in the Foundry....if they ever get the dang thing fixed.
If it ever comes back up....check the Foundry search for missions labeled with Test or Fleet. Some Fleets build these missions for their members to use for test purposes. But there is no restrictions on who can use them once they are published.
“Tell me and I forget. Teach me and I remember. Involve me and I learn.” -- Benjamin Franklin
The problem with the Foundry missions is that newer players are not going to be able to find appropriate ones to conduct tests. They are also more for grinding or accolades, than testing equipment. You'd want a more systematic assortment of enemies - shielded, unshielded, mobs, large single target, as well as enemies firing different weapons at you.
You need to be able to enter the test area, mess around for a bit with various weapons and gear, then exit, then immediately re-enter to test a different piece of equipment or setup. More like shooting range (that fires back), than mission or grinding.
And why wouldn't new players be able to find Foundry missions? I was a new player I found them.
If you want a foundry mission built to your specs.....you can try to learn to use the Foundry and make it yourself. It is hard though, I tried a couple of times. My Fleet leader did one for me...because I wanted something to practice ground stuff. Build a Foundry mission that works the way you like...and anyone can access it, you know.
The Foundry was sooo widely used at one time..... and is integrated all over this game because people used it. That is why the doors with starting points in the social and sector space zones. I can't believe players and devs have allowed this thing to languish....to the point people complain "This Isn't In the Game".
“Tell me and I forget. Teach me and I remember. Involve me and I learn.” -- Benjamin Franklin
My character Tsin'xing
Personally, I don't need any such thing, but thanks for the suggestion.
I was merely commenting on the broader topic of new players and builds. As I noted, the debate about how much support new players need is incomplete if they don't have a convenient and easily usable way to test out the builds they put together.
Why wouldn't a new player be able to find them - apart from the relatively frequent inaccessibility of foundry missions? The earlier portions of this thread seemed to argue more broadly that there is a level of complexity associated with many aspects of the game that newer players would be overwhelmed. A "holodeck" tutorial that gave immediate and direct access to such a build testing area could reduce much of that information overload and provide a suitable area for "practicing" more broadly - a simple message that says "come back whenever you want to test new equipment."
I never claimed there wasn't something similar in the game. I said that it was difficult to locate appropriate missions that allow for a wide range of testing. Now, we can differ on opinions about whether missions are easy to find and offer a sufficient range of testing, that is a wholly separate issue. But, the search function in the foundry is not particularly robust - unless you know what you're looking for in the first place. And there is lot more content and game complexity that has been added in the last few years, making it a bit more complicated if you're coming at it from scratch today than when many of us probably started.
We had such a thing a while back via the functionality of the STO gateway. Was interesting to see why players got me in PvP often until I disabled that.
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Grab a buddy and enter a 1v1 PvP map. Infinitely replayable, controllable as to the gear and tactics of both ships, and you can stop in the middle and switch out stuff to see before and after results.
I don't disagree that a training tutorial is a good idea. I advocate in favor of these 'training holograms.' I mean, put the holodecks to use somewhere other than Hathlon!
I dont want to sound rude I think your name obviously saying "I hate PWE" has to do with that post. I mean you may rightfully have things you hate on PWE(we all do) but you are pointing the wrong reasons. STO has a lot to be desiredbut its more visible advantage its fast to get max level(playing casually 2 months tops), have a decent setup and dive into queues with max level players as a max level player. In short the very start of the "endgame" section is fast and easy to get to(though it can be a bit difficult to master but if it wasnt you would leave the game in few months due to no challenges). On contrary most mmo games tend to take half a year or more to get to that point. Generally because I play other 2 mmos too, STO is my "easy going" game.
If you mentioned:
1. Lag Spikes appear fairly often for a game that wants to label itself AAA
2. Ship variety especially in C-store is lacking. Its mostly focused on raptors/escorts and cruisers/battlecruisers
3. There is a lack of balance between classes and between ship types viability
4. All set gears except the most recent(gamma) cant be re-engineered. Same for mission sets
5. Every patch corrects 2-3 bugs and brings 1-2 new ones
6. There is a lot of Bias towards one single faction creating imbalance and even unrest to the rest to the point they lose players-clients
7. The only fun battleground(Dyson) is one of the oldest and the most rich, being better designed and having more things to do - even doffing. Rest range from mediocre to junk - instead learn from the success of a good battleground they tried to (unsuccessfully) reinvent the wheel
8. There is a lack of balance between items, ships, doffs of same tier or quality that got introduced in the past with those that are newer and still no effort is being done to renew
and of them and even more that havent thought of in the short time I wrote this responce and I would agree. I cant agree its difficulty for new players to get into. I will say however the bugs and rubberbanding can easily drive lots off if they come as first impression
> It is hard enough getting new players to join STO, nevermind like it and stick around long enough to buy and spend Zen.
>
> This game has the most complicated "Build" mechanic of all the MMOs I've tried. And even then the really simple ones usually have some kind of 'default build' function to allow players to just 'get' the right skills for a build.
>
> Between the captains skills, traits, ship selection, weapon layout, consoles, DOFFs and BOFFs I can't see this game retaining the casual players that, even if they don't spend, add to the social atmosphere that keeps the game alive enough to keep the whales playing. Good grief the default equipment on a ship is so bloody far off anything even remotely optimal you can't even use it to clear normal difficulty episode content without respawning over and over.
>
> This game needs something to help the new players master all this out.
> An accessible database of ship builds pulled from other players?
> Some standardized build templates a player can choose?
> A sensible default loadout on newly purchased ships?
> Even just a tooltip that computes and shows the effective dps, survivability and regeneration numbers a piece of equipment should grant.
I disagree this is an MMO it's meant to be a social experience 99% of the game has tooltips that do an ok job people get stuck it's expected that they will be social and ask for help.
If your someone who wants to min max then you are someone who will Google or ask for help.
I personally stopped min maxing as it's not fun... So I tend to do fun or thrmrs builds.
Also I play eve online and this game has a steaper learning curve and less hold handing and has no default builds...you get your ship and it's blank of you go.
I agree with the Original Poster, I think you forum boys 'n girls have strange emotional responses when you're unable to articulate yourselves properly.
The point brought up here IS Valid, actually. (Sorry all of you who attack with snide attitude are in the wrong.)
BUT... it's tough. The reason the game is so complex is age. It's an old game now and so with that comes layers, like the layers of paint & wall paper in a century home. Do we gut the whole thing and renovate it to have a simpler clean UI and Tier system?
Ultimately I think not.
I was very intimidated by the tier and upgrade systems but I decided to sit down one day and really figure it out.
When I discovered I could upgrade weapons and consoles to Epic, it became a mini game in and of itself for me to select my favorite weapons and devices and make them shine golden. The sense of accomplishment was great, and knowing not everyone in game has my build in epic mode made it feel that much more unique.
While you forumers were attacking the OP, you all missed his POINT, to spite your Vulcan ears... instead of insinuating he is stupid, why don't you Pakleds address his concern?
Let me spell it out for you (do you like my tone? I'm just feeding back your tone to you, see how ugly it is?)
His point is: He cares about STO, like the rest of us and he wants to make sure it attracts as many new players as possible to keep it alive... And he believes that the complexity and learning curve of the game's evolved Scaling system is too complex for a broad audience. That's a perfectly valid concern and perhaps there's some room for minimization....
I considered his points and weighed them and ultimately I think the complexity adds to the game and gives a layer of depth.
For instance, you can get through the game with out really learning skills and upgrades especially well. (thats what I did initially)
Then at End Game I was enticed to come back and learn about skill tree's and upgrading etc. It kept me coming back and learning.
Be nicer in your attitudes. It's a sign of an evolved mind to have some level of decorum even online.
The two biggest issues with grabbing a buddy to pvp are:
First, a new player may not have a buddy who has the time or patience to spend an hour testing various builds. Once again, it places the onus, not only on the original player to do a lot of the legwork, but also now puts it on a second player to assist. I agree that a pvp duel might provide some information, but it wouldn't allow for testing offense/defense AoE mechanics against mobs.
The second problem goes to the issue of in-game complexity for new players. In order to run a pvp match, you'd have to train people how to do pvp. While obviously not that complicated, it's just one more bit of complexity that a new player has to learn.
The premise of the OP was essentially: 1)The game is very complex; 2) the game doesn't do enough to train people how to master that complexity. The subsequent debate and comparisons to other MMOs is a bit off target in that it hinges on whether the majority of new players play MMOs. I'd bet it's more ST fans, than MMO fans who play this game (I mean, c'mon would true MMO fans find the mechanics of this game "robust").
The addition of more new player training doesn't do any harm to other players unless lowering the learning curve somehow impedes other players. It's not like any new player training would become mandatory to the existing players. The biggest objection I can think of is that it could potentially draw developer resources away from the main game for some period of time - a very valid point given current issues in the game. But, beyond that, the question of whether the mechanics are so off-putting that new players quit is a factual question whose answer is unknown.
My character Tsin'xing
Like, explicitly telling players tac consoles and boff abilities matching weapons is a thing. Personally, I think it's kind of obvious when you find items and abilities that boost a specific kind of weapon that you use the boosts and the weapons together. But I suppose someone might need stuff like that spelled out for them.
What the game CAN'T do is teach the metagame. That tutorial would be obsolete already before it's even released.
I don't feel it is a problem with "Build" help at all. Because it is there, if they look.
The problem is before a player can even get into "builds", they have to understand how things work at the core level. And I don't mean the motion, the UI, keyboard short cuts...etc..
+++++++++++++
Builds has always been handled by players talking to players.
In the forums, in the game, in Fleets and play testing on their own and with their teams and friends.
I don't ever think the Devs ever did well with teaching "builds" (or making them). Builds are a player creation and the players are the authority. And Devs, definitely, can not keep up with players on that subject. Players just spend more time playing the game and experimenting.
“Tell me and I forget. Teach me and I remember. Involve me and I learn.” -- Benjamin Franklin
What this sounds like to me is: He was given the wrong information for what he was looking for. And someone went talking over his head about builds.
This goes back to: not being shown the core basics of the game....but being thrown "build" help. Sometimes people are given complex builds to attain......when they are looking for is "how all this stuff works together".
“Tell me and I forget. Teach me and I remember. Involve me and I learn.” -- Benjamin Franklin
There is a small core of players who actually grind the numbers and work out how everything integrates, and they lead the DPS leagues or (formerly) the PvP leagues. Then they pass down their hard won knowledge and the rest of us copy them.
So when someone asks how everything works together and gets build advice, that's probably the best the answerer can do. I know if I tried to answer the theory of how it all works my answer would be less than satisfactory, and I've been around for a while now.
l don't know.
l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
Quit being a cop out.
You CAN bring clarity. Pass along what works for you. But then tell them WHY it works. HOW it works. And, instead of getting rants on how horribly difficult things are....they get an idea of what to ask.
You know how things go together on a more advanced level than a new player. You know how the core mechanics work. New players need THAT explained to them. So, they can figure out how they can use it. What to look for.
Don't pawn it all off to players who "know more than me" and have "done all the math".
It is not really fair to heap all this at the feet of the "worthy" and shovel it on top of the Devs.
Especially, the basics. That is on everyone.
Even if it is just passing along the pertinent Wiki page, or article written in STO Builds, or a You Tube video. No one is expecting you to have it memorized and recite it off the top of your head.
IOW...it is something we can all do to make things better.
“Tell me and I forget. Teach me and I remember. Involve me and I learn.” -- Benjamin Franklin
My character Tsin'xing
Thank you!
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