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Yet another artan42 "Starfleet is/isn't a military" tangent

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  • angrytargangrytarg Member Posts: 11,001 Arc User
    I personally go with a version of UN peacekeepers which are a permanent service and not affiliated with a specific country (while not having national militaries).

    But I really don't know what the problem is. Why does a fictional concept in a fictional show that shows semi-hopeful visions of a "what if" future fry people's brains so much? There is no RL equivalent to Starfleet. It makes no sense to try and headcanon them to be the US Navy because they aren't. It's fiction.

    Maybe it is because I grew up in a society that doesn't glorify military service. Quite the contrary, from a young age on we were always cautious about militarism and my own father did serve, but it never came up. It was just a thing he did (had to because of the draft) and aside from a funny anecdote now and then it never left a mark on our lives. But I feel comfortable with the concept of Starfleet as it's portrayed. Not offended for whatever reason. I do recognize wonky writing from time to time and even I have said that "Beyond" has a plot that I can see being somewhat offensive to servicepeople because there is a strong slant to paint soldiers as indoctrinated killers which I don't subscribe to. But none of that changes the fact that SF is not supposed to be a 'military organization' in Star Trek. I admit it doesn't help that 99% of all Trek games are about weapons and war.
    lFC4bt2.gif
    ^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
    "No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
    "A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
    "That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
  • brian334brian334 Member Posts: 2,214 Arc User
    If it waddles and quacks and has a funny beak, it's probably not an eagle.

    Starfleet:

    Has guns. Hoo boy, howdy do they have guns! Little guns, big guns, great big guns, and planet-killing guns.
    Has people trained to wield those guns when ordered to do so.
    Has a hierarchical command and control structure which answers to a government.
    Has rules which govern the conduct of their members, said rules having the force of law.

    Now, my question is, what non-military organization has all those things? Is there any?

    Saying Starfleet is not a military is similar to saying the US Coast Guard is not a military. Their roles may not be primarily military, but when push comes to shove and the president calls on them they break out the guns and go to work.
  • starkaosstarkaos Member Posts: 11,556 Arc User
    Starfleet is a military when it needs to be.
  • luminaire#0745 luminaire Member Posts: 77 Arc User
    edited October 2018
    Starfleet is a military in every way that matters, it's just that social and political conditions in the Federation mean much more emphasis is placed on its exploration and diplomatic roles...but it's still the professionally trained (mostly)disciplined strict hierarchically organized group with the big ships with big guns that are explicitly charged with going out and violently exploding threats to the Federation or its interests when necessary.

    It shouldn't really be a big deal, except that Gene's occasionally overreaching idealism equated "military" with bad wrong evil primitive, so therefore even if his super enlightened future humans had a Starfleet that acted as the Federation military in every meaningful way, as long as they constantly and loudly told anyone who would listen that they were PEACEFUL EXPLORERS it was totally different!
  • legendarylycan#5411 legendarylycan Member Posts: 37,275 Arc User
    brian334 wrote: »
    If it waddles and quacks and has a funny beak, it's probably not an eagle.

    Starfleet:

    Has guns. Hoo boy, howdy do they have guns! Little guns, big guns, great big guns, and planet-killing guns.
    Has people trained to wield those guns when ordered to do so.
    Has a hierarchical command and control structure which answers to a government.
    Has rules which govern the conduct of their members, said rules having the force of law.

    Now, my question is, what non-military organization has all those things? Is there any?

    Saying Starfleet is not a military is similar to saying the US Coast Guard is not a military. Their roles may not be primarily military, but when push comes to shove and the president calls on them they break out the guns and go to work.

    the police...maybe not planet-killing, but they certainly have big guns - bigger, really, than is actually NEEDED for law enforcement
    the police
    the police - i don't know if they answer directly to the government (in any country) but they certainly do have a hierarchical C&C structure
    the police - force of law is a given here...they are LITERALLY law enforcers

    a lot of country's coast guard (or equivalent organizations) are in fact NOT military - the US is one of the few (and possibly only) countries that does have it as part of their military​​
    Like special weapons from other Star Trek games? Wondering if they can be replicated in STO even a little bit? Check this out: https://forum.arcgames.com/startrekonline/discussion/1262277/a-mostly-comprehensive-guide-to-star-trek-videogame-special-weapons-and-their-sto-equivalents

    #LegalizeAwoo

    A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
    An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
    A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
    A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"


    "It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch."
    "We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
    Passion and Serenity are one.
    I gain power by understanding both.
    In the chaos of their battle, I bring order.
    I am a shadow, darkness born from light.
    The Force is united within me.
  • brian334brian334 Member Posts: 2,214 Arc User
    I would argue that in every meaningful way the police are a military force.
  • legendarylycan#5411 legendarylycan Member Posts: 37,275 Arc User
    maybe in dictatorships and other equally TRIBBLE countries, but in civilized ones, police are civilians​​
    Like special weapons from other Star Trek games? Wondering if they can be replicated in STO even a little bit? Check this out: https://forum.arcgames.com/startrekonline/discussion/1262277/a-mostly-comprehensive-guide-to-star-trek-videogame-special-weapons-and-their-sto-equivalents

    #LegalizeAwoo

    A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
    An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
    A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
    A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"


    "It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch."
    "We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
    Passion and Serenity are one.
    I gain power by understanding both.
    In the chaos of their battle, I bring order.
    I am a shadow, darkness born from light.
    The Force is united within me.
  • angrytargangrytarg Member Posts: 11,001 Arc User
    > @brian334 said:
    > I would argue that in every meaningful way the police are a military force.

    Are you confusing 'military' and 'combatant'? Police forces *can* be combatants (they usually aren't but some countries like France have laws that officially integrate them into the armed forces under dire circumstances) but they can never be military by definition (in any society that has separation of powers at least)
    lFC4bt2.gif
    ^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
    "No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
    "A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
    "That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
  • brian334brian334 Member Posts: 2,214 Arc User
    edited October 2018
    maybe in dictatorships and other equally **** countries, but in civilized ones, police are civilians​​

    During the aftermath of Hurricane Katrina, the Sheriff of my parish declared a state of Martial Law. He enforced this status through use of uniformed police officers. When the National Guard came in, they worked under his command and authority, effectively being deputized to act as police officers.

    During that same time there were Sheriff's Deputies and local police officers who left their duty station and evacuated, even though their orders were to bunker in assigned places to ride out the storm so they could be on hand afterward to perform their duties. They were later charged with the crime of desertion.

    Police are a military organization which answers to a regional or local government. Call them civilian if you wish, but they meet all the criteria of being military.

    As Shakespeare said, a rose by any other name still gets infested with aphids.

    ***
  • ryan218ryan218 Member Posts: 36,106 Arc User
    @brian334 that may be the case where you live, but that is certainly not indicative of all police forces. No police officer has that kind of authority in Britain (and police forces are largely independent of local government here). If it were necessary to impose military measures in Britain, those measures would be imposed by London (using the Army nominally but also possibly using the police if necessary).
  • markhawkmanmarkhawkman Member Posts: 35,231 Arc User
    ryan218 wrote: »
    @brian334 that may be the case where you live, but that is certainly not indicative of all police forces. No police officer has that kind of authority in Britain (and police forces are largely independent of local government here). If it were necessary to impose military measures in Britain, those measures would be imposed by London (using the Army nominally but also possibly using the police if necessary).
    A sheriff is essentially the local police chief, also I'm pretty sure that the Mayor is the one who okayed it.
    -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
    My character Tsin'xing
    Costume_marhawkman_Tsin%27xing_CC_Comic_Page_Blue_488916968.jpg
  • brian334brian334 Member Posts: 2,214 Arc User
    ryan218 wrote: »
    @brian334 that may be the case where you live, but that is certainly not indicative of all police forces. No police officer has that kind of authority in Britain (and police forces are largely independent of local government here). If it were necessary to impose military measures in Britain, those measures would be imposed by London (using the Army nominally but also possibly using the police if necessary).

    If police are susceptible to being conscripted by the military in a time of need, how are they not effectively an arm of the military? Police forces everywhere originated as a branch of the military which specialized in law enforcement. They changed the name, but retained that down home flavor.
    ryan218 wrote: »
    @brian334 that may be the case where you live, but that is certainly not indicative of all police forces. No police officer has that kind of authority in Britain (and police forces are largely independent of local government here). If it were necessary to impose military measures in Britain, those measures would be imposed by London (using the Army nominally but also possibly using the police if necessary).
    A sheriff is essentially the local police chief, also I'm pretty sure that the Mayor is the one who okayed it.

    Actually, a Parish government is run by a Parish President, and yes, the Parish President issued the order which the Sheriff then imposed. A Parish is Louisiana's version of a County. It usually includes several cities, towns, villages, townships, and other local jurisdictions which generally have Mayors or some other form of executive authority and a Police Force.

    Police forces are armed and organized power with an hierarchical command structure which answers to a government. Even if their only armament is the legal authority to detain other citizens, police are effectively a military.

    Disagree if you like. But so far the use of police as a refutation of my assertion that Starfleet, no matter what it calls itself, is a military organization, has only demonstrated that the only difference between Police and Military in your views is that Police deal with civilian issues and Military deals with military issues. That distinction evaporates under certain circumstances, and when that happens, the truth is that there is no effective difference other than the name.

    The same applies to Starfleet. Their mission is to boldly go, but their other job is to be the police and the navy in space. They can't do those things if they are not a military because those things are military things.

    As a counter example, there are corporate security forces. These forces are often armed, trained, and organized by an hierarchical command structure. They are called paramilitary organizations because, while they wear the trappings of a military, they do not answer to a government. They are also not granted a separate set of rules which have the force of law to govern their conduct. If a person belonging to such a unit were to desert his post, the worst which could legally happen, (barring any other side issues,) is that the deserter could be fired.

    Courts Martial and Boards of Inquiry are unique to military service, and we see both in Star Trek. Picard's reaction to a Starfleet Officer who defected to Romulus is also quite telling. They, more than anything, demonstrate that Starflet is indeed a military.
  • markhawkmanmarkhawkman Member Posts: 35,231 Arc User
    My point was that, under US law, declaration of martial law is a CIVILIAN action not a military one. Nothing more, nothing less.
    -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
    My character Tsin'xing
    Costume_marhawkman_Tsin%27xing_CC_Comic_Page_Blue_488916968.jpg
  • brian334brian334 Member Posts: 2,214 Arc User
    My point was that, under US law, declaration of martial law is a CIVILIAN action not a military one. Nothing more, nothing less.

    This is true, but in every case in the US, civilian authorities have the ultimate command of the military. This is not true everywhere in the world, but everywhere in the world militaries meet the points laid out in my earlier post.
  • oldravenman3025oldravenman3025 Member Posts: 1,892 Arc User
    brian334 wrote: »
    ryan218 wrote: »
    @brian334 that may be the case where you live, but that is certainly not indicative of all police forces. No police officer has that kind of authority in Britain (and police forces are largely independent of local government here). If it were necessary to impose military measures in Britain, those measures would be imposed by London (using the Army nominally but also possibly using the police if necessary).

    If police are susceptible to being conscripted by the military in a time of need, how are they not effectively an arm of the military? Police forces everywhere originated as a branch of the military which specialized in law enforcement. They changed the name, but retained that down home flavor.
    ryan218 wrote: »
    @brian334 that may be the case where you live, but that is certainly not indicative of all police forces. No police officer has that kind of authority in Britain (and police forces are largely independent of local government here). If it were necessary to impose military measures in Britain, those measures would be imposed by London (using the Army nominally but also possibly using the police if necessary).
    A sheriff is essentially the local police chief, also I'm pretty sure that the Mayor is the one who okayed it.

    Actually, a Parish government is run by a Parish President, and yes, the Parish President issued the order which the Sheriff then imposed. A Parish is Louisiana's version of a County. It usually includes several cities, towns, villages, townships, and other local jurisdictions which generally have Mayors or some other form of executive authority and a Police Force.

    Police forces are armed and organized power with an hierarchical command structure which answers to a government. Even if their only armament is the legal authority to detain other citizens, police are effectively a military.

    Disagree if you like. But so far the use of police as a refutation of my assertion that Starfleet, no matter what it calls itself, is a military organization, has only demonstrated that the only difference between Police and Military in your views is that Police deal with civilian issues and Military deals with military issues. That distinction evaporates under certain circumstances, and when that happens, the truth is that there is no effective difference other than the name.

    The same applies to Starfleet. Their mission is to boldly go, but their other job is to be the police and the navy in space. They can't do those things if they are not a military because those things are military things.

    As a counter example, there are corporate security forces. These forces are often armed, trained, and organized by an hierarchical command structure. They are called paramilitary organizations because, while they wear the trappings of a military, they do not answer to a government. They are also not granted a separate set of rules which have the force of law to govern their conduct. If a person belonging to such a unit were to desert his post, the worst which could legally happen, (barring any other side issues,) is that the deserter could be fired.

    Courts Martial and Boards of Inquiry are unique to military service, and we see both in Star Trek. Picard's reaction to a Starfleet Officer who defected to Romulus is also quite telling. They, more than anything, demonstrate that Starflet is indeed a military.



    Actually, in the United States, local and State police forces are considered to be paramilitary, because of the military style hierarchy but focus on civilian law enforcement. It's a similar situation with modern counter terrorism agencies. They are also considered part of the emergency services (i.e. "first responders") in most (if not all) jurisdictions.

    Here in North Carolina, the local chief LEO can declare a curfew with the blessings of the County/city government, but an actual "state of emergency",and relaxation of deadly force policies/laws against looters and other property-related offenders during such emergency, can only be declared by the Governor of the State. And the North Carolina National Guard only operates closely with the local law enforcement/emergency services in that manner (i.e. going where the local police/EMS need them) in the interests of an efficient, combined response. But ultimate authority rests with the Governor, as per DoD regulations and Federal laws concerning the Guard (the National Guard is a quasi-Federal "militia" created by Congress, under State control during peacetime for domestic emergencies. They are NOT a State militia force). I seriously doubt that the Louisiana Guard were under complete control of local law enforcement cited in your example, since the State governors and U.S. Department of Defense are the primary authorities over the National Guard during peacetime, or when Guard units are not deployed overseas.

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