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DSC shouldn't have been a TOS prequel

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  • shadowfang240shadowfang240 Member Posts: 31,588 Arc User
    plus, science vessels are generally supposed to be big to fit all the science TRIBBLE the eggheads need, plus room for experimental tech, isolation rooms for studying infectious diseases or quarantining infected persons, containment cells for aggressive non-sapient lifeforms, etc.​​
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  • starswordcstarswordc Member Posts: 10,673 Arc User
    I've always been curious as to why Starfleet was making massive ships like the Discovery.. Then going back to making very small and fragile ships like the tiny little Constitution Class Kirk was in command of.. Oh wait, now I know.. Because Star Trek Discovery makes zero sense being in the prime universe.......

    cWGDJAi.jpg

    Because they didn't. The Constitution-class predates the Crossfield-class by at least a decade (it had already been in service for at least 20 years at the time of TOS). As for the Walker-class, it's mentioned onscreen to be very old, so maybe it was built originally to fill a battleship or equivalent design role (the Connie is a heavy cruiser) but is obsolete in that role due to technological advancement.
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  • talonxvtalonxv Member Posts: 4,241 Arc User
    > @starswordc said:
    > snowwolf#0563 wrote: »
    >
    > I've always been curious as to why Starfleet was making massive ships like the Discovery.. Then going back to making very small and fragile ships like the tiny little Constitution Class Kirk was in command of.. Oh wait, now I know.. Because Star Trek Discovery makes zero sense being in the prime universe.......
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    > Because they didn't. The Constitution-class predates the Crossfield-class by at least a decade (it had already been in service for at least 20 years at the time of TOS). As for the Walker-class, it's mentioned onscreen to be very old, so maybe it was built originally to fill a battleship or equivalent design role (the Connie is a heavy cruiser) but is obsolete in that role due to technological advancement.

    Personally the Crossfield I'd of simply downsized it by 40%. Because DSC Enterprise was actually upscaled to not be completely dwarfed on screen by Discovery.
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  • khan5000khan5000 Member Posts: 2,600 Arc User
    almost like insisting that the Nolan Batman films adhere to the 1966 Batman tv aesthetics.

    jonsills wrote: »
    That being said, however, this is now more of a failure to learn from mistakes than poor prior education.

    Back to the topic, however...

    You really should watch all the TOS episodes. You'll find a couple where ship's phasers shoot out blips, much like the depiction of photon torpedoes when they're used.

    And once again, aesthetics are not the show. What you see in TOS is the most futuristic stuff they could get - in the 1960s. (Did you know that most of McCoy's medical instruments are salt shakers? They tried to find the most "futuristic" salt shakers they could for the dinner scene in "The Man Trap", but wound up with a collection of things that someone would have had to hold up and say, "This is a salt shaker!", so instead they swiped a shaker from the NBC commissary and repurposed all their new ones as protoplasers and medical scanners and whatnot.)

    Star Trek was also tremendously expensive to produce - the average cost of an episode was $190,635 according to Memory Alpha, which converts to $1,381,260 in inflation-adjusted dollars. ("The City On the Edge of Forever" went tremendously over budget, costing over $250,000 in 1968 dollars, or just shy of two million adjusted for inflation!) So what you're seeing on screen, fuzzy and small as it is, represents the cutting edge of television technology in the late '60s. Claiming that the technological improvements seen "violate canon" is like complaining that the 1980s Twilight Zone revival "violated the canon" of the show because it was filmed in color.
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  • talonxvtalonxv Member Posts: 4,241 Arc User
    > @khan5000 said:
    > almost like insisting that the Nolan Batman films adhere to the 1966 Batman tv aesthetics.

    And where did I say that? I merely said based on what was presented to me did not fit the era of time specified and would of been better suited 20 years later.

    That's all.
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  • rattler2rattler2 Member Posts: 48,115 Arc User
    But that time period does not fit the narrative they wanted to tell in season 1, which was for the most part the Fed-Klingon War. The Organian Treaty would have been in FULL EFFECT between TMP and WoK.
    Also Discovery uniforms look MUCH BETTER than TMP uniforms. And they translate pretty well into TOS colors too.
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  • brian334brian334 Member Posts: 2,186 Arc User
    edited October 2018
    The aesthetics don't bother me, other than as a matter of personal taste. For example, I much prefer the look of a cotton peasant smock to a dacron/polyester pant suit. The first is simply more elegant, in my opinion. Lots of women wore, and wear, pant suits, and wouldn't put on a peasant smock unless they weren't planning on leaving the house. So it's a matter of taste.

    My dislike of the neo-Gothic aesthetic has been stated before, but it isn't why I don't watch Discovery. I don't watch it because I don't buy a streaming service for one show, and CBS has literally nothing else that remotely interests me.

    If Discovery had a great story it wouldn't matter if Klingons looked like LotR orcs or Land Before Time baby T-Rexes, as far as I'm concerned. If the story sucked, it wouldn't matter if they looked like DS9 or TOS Klingons. It's the story, the new insights into the characters and setting, the new insights into, as Picard said, the human condition, that interest me.

    I saw the pilot, and wasn't really disappointed. When Discovery comes out from behind its paywall I'll watch it. Until then, I'll just look at the art, sigh, and wonder what the next generation will produce. It probably won't be the girl from Hair who sings Age Of Aquarius in New York's Central Park, but that's okay. Each generation makes its own way.

    ***
  • mustrumridcully0mustrumridcully0 Member Posts: 12,412 Arc User
    I am not convinced the Discovery story is a great fit for the post-DS9/VOY era.

    1) The Quadrant is just coming out of a violent war already, the biggest yet in the Star Trek universe, that brought the Federation close to a potential collapse. Do we really want to say that our optimsitic, hopeful future of Star Trek, only consists of brutal wars?

    2) The Federation is established as "kinda a big deal". They aren't new kids on the block anymore, that have to still prove themselves against elder races. They have been tested by the Borg, the Dominion, and the Q, and have proven themselves repeatedly already. Should we really return it to the place of an underdog again?

    3) Even if the DSC Klingons are not 1:1 TNG Klingons, they are still a decadent warrior race. If DSC was set post VOY, I am sure people would have called them "Carbon Copy Klingons" or "High Budget Klingons" or whatever. And people complain about Spock's adopted sister coming out of nowhere, but an ancient warrior race that ignored the Federation for 100 years that was never mentioned on screen seems even more awkward.


    I don't know what the post VOY era should look like, but I think the whole Federation and the entirety of Starfleet playing underdog again doesn't seem to fit. Maybe that is also the reason why the TV/movie writers prefer making prequels instead of continuing the Star Trek story, because they think it works better when the heroes are the underdogs.

    There are ways to make the heroes underdogs again and stay in the future, but I think it would not involve threats to the entire Federation. It might be something like a ship far away from home. But that would be kinda a repeat of VOY. And it would mean that you might not get to use the Star Trek iconic elements as much - stuff like Klingons, Vulcans, Romulans, Borg (and maybe Ferengi and Cardassians, though I am not sure how iconic these really became compared to the aforementioned ones). If you use a franchise, but not use the elements that defined the franchise in the past, you have to answer why you're still using the franchise.
    but on the flipside, we did improve several words by removing those idiotic superfluous extra letters...*cogh*honor*cogh*armor*cogh*color*cogh*​​
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  • shadowfang240shadowfang240 Member Posts: 31,588 Arc User
    Do we really want to say that our optimsitic, hopeful future of Star Trek, only consists of brutal wars?

    well yes, because that's exactly what STO did, and does, because in the future, there is only war - and war...war never changes​​
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  • starswordcstarswordc Member Posts: 10,673 Arc User
    edited October 2018
    brian334 wrote: »
    I saw the pilot, and wasn't really disappointed. When Discovery comes out from behind its paywall I'll watch it. Until then, I'll just look at the art, sigh, and wonder what the next generation will produce. It probably won't be the girl from Hair who sings Age Of Aquarius in New York's Central Park, but that's okay. Each generation makes its own way.

    ***

    In point of fact, season one is already out on DVD/Blu-ray. So, paywall gone.

    Personally, my opinion of the first season is mixed to negative (they had a lot of good ideas but they also did a ton of dumb things), but I sure prefer DSC fans to DSC haters: they tend to be nicer to be around.
    I am not convinced the Discovery story is a great fit for the post-DS9/VOY era.

    1) The Quadrant is just coming out of a violent war already, the biggest yet in the Star Trek universe, that brought the Federation close to a potential collapse. Do we really want to say that our optimsitic, hopeful future of Star Trek, only consists of brutal wars?

    2) The Federation is established as "kinda a big deal". They aren't new kids on the block anymore, that have to still prove themselves against elder races. They have been tested by the Borg, the Dominion, and the Q, and have proven themselves repeatedly already. Should we really return it to the place of an underdog again?

    3) Even if the DSC Klingons are not 1:1 TNG Klingons, they are still a decadent warrior race. If DSC was set post VOY, I am sure people would have called them "Carbon Copy Klingons" or "High Budget Klingons" or whatever. And people complain about Spock's adopted sister coming out of nowhere, but an ancient warrior race that ignored the Federation for 100 years that was never mentioned on screen seems even more awkward.


    I don't know what the post VOY era should look like, but I think the whole Federation and the entirety of Starfleet playing underdog again doesn't seem to fit. Maybe that is also the reason why the TV/movie writers prefer making prequels instead of continuing the Star Trek story, because they think it works better when the heroes are the underdogs.

    There are ways to make the heroes underdogs again and stay in the future, but I think it would not involve threats to the entire Federation. It might be something like a ship far away from home. But that would be kinda a repeat of VOY. And it would mean that you might not get to use the Star Trek iconic elements as much - stuff like Klingons, Vulcans, Romulans, Borg (and maybe Ferengi and Cardassians, though I am not sure how iconic these really became compared to the aforementioned ones). If you use a franchise, but not use the elements that defined the franchise in the past, you have to answer why you're still using the franchise.
    but on the flipside, we did improve several words by removing those idiotic superfluous extra letters...*cogh*honor*cogh*armor*cogh*color*cogh*​​
    Improved your post further! The future of the English Language is in your grasp!

    I think a post-DS9-VOY story, especially one that would've just jossed most of STO and the novels, could've been really good.

    Here's my pitch: Go back to a ship-based story for mobility's sake, set it in the aftermath of the most destructive war on record. The Good Guys(tm) won, but what happens next? Cardassia is in ruins, billions are dead and homeless (the Dominion made it as far into the Federation as Betazed after all), the Klingons will need a decade to recover their strength and the Great Houses are in chaos from the deaths of patriarchs and heirs, and the Romulans have if anything strengthened their position, having come in late and suffered little to no damage to their homefront (at least publicly, the fact the head of the secret police is a double agent for the Federation is another issue). And Section 31 is trying to claim a bigger role, with their ultranationalist "Federation über Alles" ideology and all.

    What world is that going to be like? Between the Borg, the Klingon border conflict, the Maquis revolt, and the Dominion, the Federation's just suffered through eight years of war. And DS9 showed how humanity really isn't as perfect as it claimed to be: I can see a resurgence of isolationism and nationalism like we've seen recently in real life, it would be a fine time to shed light on the Federation's internal political structure and bring back Terra Prime from ENT times.

    So, the ship. Our captain served in the Dominion War, saw horror on a scale we can barely imagine (one of the things that made "The Siege of AR-558" so effective was that Robert Hewitt Wolfe based the setting and framing on his experience serving at Khe Sanh). And now the war's over, only it's really not: all the necessary evil that was built to win the war can be turned to the unnecessary evil. Starfleet's facing an identity crisis: are we the soldiers who defeated the Dominion, or are we explorers and diplomats who did what we had to do? And the dogmatic view of the Prime Directive would seem to support the isolationists who are surging in popularity.

    But no, the Federation is not this: the myth arc is about "climbing out of darkness". So instead of having another alien invasion, we take advantage of the high-level corruption that was seen in DS9 and late TNG and use that as the core of the story, a la where J. Michael Stracynski wanted to take Crusade's myth arc (the Drakh were supposed to just be the Disc One Final Boss). Or check out the Foundry collaborative series Purity from a few years ago. Essentially, Adm. Pressman, Adm. Leyton, and Adm. Dougherty weren't acting alone: more militant factions of Starfleet and the Federation's military-industrial-intelligence complex, Section 31 included, are trying to take advantage of the chaos and gain in power, many of them with the best of intentions (keeping the Federation safe from the next threat from nowhere like the Dominion or the Borg, and put the alien empires on the borders into further disarray because realpolitik), but with great and dark consequences. Our captain and his/her crew and allies, which grow to include independent thinkers in the other governments whom they befriend in encounters over the course of the story (let's have another Fed-Kling-Rom team-up like in the Debt of Honor comic book), oppose this, and start rooting out the corruption. Section 31 and its network are ultimately exposed and taken down and the Federation emerges stronger and happier, with more stable alliances and a safer Alpha Quadrant.

    (Yes, obviously I'm basing this partly on what's happened in the United States in my lifetime since the fall of the Soviet Union: without the big Russian bear roaring in the background, we're eating ourselves.)
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  • khan5000khan5000 Member Posts: 2,600 Arc User
    Wouldn’t the Romulans be in disarray following the actions of Nemesis or would it be before the movie?
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  • artan42artan42 Member Posts: 10,201 Bug Hunter
    I've always been curious as to why Starfleet was making massive ships like the Discovery.. Then going back to making very small and fragile ships like the tiny little Constitution Class Kirk was in command of.. Oh wait, now I know.. Because Star Trek Discovery makes zero sense being in the prime universe.......

    cWGDJAi.jpg

    This chart has two glaring errors. Firstly it places the Conni(s) after the Crossfield (and arguably the Walker) and secondly it ignores the upscaling done in In a Mirror Darkly and Will You Take My Hand?. And obviously if the TOS Conni is upscaled then so is the TMP version. In addition the Excelsior is much upscaled in TNG already (along with the Obreth).

    So that 'massive ship' thing? Yeah, since TNG.

    Oh, and not to mention the Defiant being change from about 90m all the way up to 170m.

    I guess TNG makes no sense as being in the prime timeline (it's timeline by the way, not universe). I guess DS9 also makes no sense in the prime timeline. Hell TNG took the tiny little BoP and turned it into a battlecruiser. Bloody TNG and it's bloody lack of respect for the prime timeline.

    No ship's size is ever consistent. TOS has been retconned ever since TMP came out. Get over it.​​
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  • starswordcstarswordc Member Posts: 10,673 Arc User
    edited October 2018
    khan5000 wrote: »
    Wouldn’t the Romulans be in disarray following the actions of Nemesis or would it be before the movie?

    Well, this idea originally came out of a forum thread that postulated it was 2000, before Nemesis and the Kelvin Timeline were made. But that can be worked around: perhaps there's a story arc of the protagonists helping to stabilize the Empire after the coup, which is how they gain the friendship of a Romulan captain (e.g. Donatra) as mentioned later in the post.
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  • brian334brian334 Member Posts: 2,186 Arc User
    Science Ships come in a variety of styles, depending on their exact purpose. The one thing they have in common is their range and their ability to remain on station for a while.

    To use modern ships as examples, most research vessels are tiny by warship or merchant ship standards. Even going back to the age of sail, ships of exploration were very small compared to other vessels of their era.

    The only time ships designed for the exploration role got big was when they were used as naval scouts. That was HMS Hood's role. They had to be big enough to survive an accidental engagement with enemy skirmish forces.

    As a science ship, the Nova is superior to the Crossfield. As a naval scout, the Cossfield is superior to the Nova.

    Note that the USN in WW2 used its excellent long-range destroyers in the role of naval scout, and only built two of its proposed naval scouts, the Alaska and the Guam, before cancelling the program entirely. They could crank out an ever improving line of small, fast DD's for picket and scouting roles, but the Alaskas were too expensive to build in numbers, and by the end of the war were obsolete, along with the battleship fleet.

    Bigger is not better, especially in a science ship. It's only better in the role of a naval scout when survivability is an issue.
  • talonxvtalonxv Member Posts: 4,241 Arc User
    > @artan42 said:
    > snowwolf#0563 wrote: »
    >
    > I've always been curious as to why Starfleet was making massive ships like the Discovery.. Then going back to making very small and fragile ships like the tiny little Constitution Class Kirk was in command of.. Oh wait, now I know.. Because Star Trek Discovery makes zero sense being in the prime universe.......
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    > This chart has two glaring errors. Firstly it places the Conni(s) after the Crossfield (and arguably the Walker) and secondly it ignores the upscaling done in In a Mirror Darkly and Will You Take My Hand?. And obviously if the TOS Conni is upscaled then so is the TMP version. In addition the Excelsior is much upscaled in TNG already (along with the Obreth).
    >
    > So that 'massive ship' thing? Yeah, since TNG.
    >
    > Oh, and not to mention the Defiant being change from about 90m all the way up to 170m.
    >
    > I guess TNG makes no sense as being in the prime timeline (it's timeline by the way, not universe). I guess DS9 also makes no sense in the prime timeline. Hell TNG took the tiny little BoP and turned it into a battlecruiser. Bloody TNG and it's bloody lack of respect for the prime timeline.
    >
    > No ship's size is ever consistent. TOS has been retconned ever since TMP came out. Get over it.​​

    Well the Connie in DSC wasn't just upscaled, she was almost completely redesigned. TOS Connie NEVER had swept pylons(didn't come till TMP), the neck is more squat and the hull is more rounded like TMP over TOS.

    I'm not saying it's a bad redesign. But the Enterprise looks way more like her Refit model over the original. And that's 20 years too soon.

    Which to me is a bit of a problem.
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  • jonsillsjonsills Member Posts: 8,461 Arc User
    You're confusing aesthetics and canon again...
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  • khan5000khan5000 Member Posts: 2,600 Arc User
    I fully believe that Discovery is a visual reboot. I think if the show gets more seasons you’ll never see them move into the The full TOS aesthetics. The Connie and Pike uniform will be how they do it. Take the TOS aesthetic and update it. If we continue this line of thinking everything that happened in TOS happened they way it did but with the updated visuals.
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  • tobywitczaktobywitczak Member Posts: 179 Arc User
    If you haven’t seen or heard of it, I would recommend watching Midnight's Edge: Star Trek Discovery and the Return of Picard: The Controversies Behind The Scenes
    The discovery we got has more to do with licensing between CBS and Paramount and merchandising then caring about what the fans wanted. DISCO is set in the Prime timeline because CBS “owns’ the Prime timeline, where as Paramount “owns” the Kelvin timeline.

    I know it has been said before, but may after the dust has settled in a decade, Paramount probably filing for bankruptcy and being bought by CBS, DISCO will eventually be pushed into the Kelvin as a prequel of sorts. That is unless CBS does something dumb like trying to wipe out the Prime and Kelvin timelines in favor of the DISCO timeline, which I would not put it past them…
  • khan5000khan5000 Member Posts: 2,600 Arc User
    There is no Disco time line. It’s the Prime time line
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  • starkaosstarkaos Member Posts: 10,798 Arc User
    I know it has been said before, but may after the dust has settled in a decade, Paramount probably filing for bankruptcy and being bought by CBS, DISCO will eventually be pushed into the Kelvin as a prequel of sorts. That is unless CBS does something dumb like trying to wipe out the Prime and Kelvin timelines in favor of the DISCO timeline, which I would not put it past them…

    Not difficult due to all the time travel in Enterprise. Changing the past changes the present. It always seemed weird that destroying one ship created a completely new timeline while killing millions of people had little effect on the timeline.
  • tobywitczaktobywitczak Member Posts: 179 Arc User
    starkaos wrote: »
    I know it has been said before, but may after the dust has settled in a decade, Paramount probably filing for bankruptcy and being bought by CBS, DISCO will eventually be pushed into the Kelvin as a prequel of sorts. That is unless CBS does something dumb like trying to wipe out the Prime and Kelvin timelines in favor of the DISCO timeline, which I would not put it past them…

    Not difficult due to all the time travel in Enterprise. Changing the past changes the present. It always seemed weird that destroying one ship created a completely new timeline while killing millions of people had little effect on the timeline.

    That’s where the Midnight's Edge speculation come in; where in the “DISCO timeline” Vulcan disappeared AND Romulus will still be destroyed, making all the event of the current prime playout differently, and potentially wiping out most of the existing TOS, TMP, TNG DS9, VOY if not completely re-imagination of the prime. With the upcoming Picard spin off, we will all get a better understanding what CBS has in store.

    This all comes down to licensing and merchandising. CBS can’t place DISCO in the Kelvin timeline as they don’t own the rights Paramount does. As a side note. Apparently a lot of the design decisions for the JJ Films for the look, feel, mandated by CBS as not to infringe on CBS look and feel.

    Again this is all speculation, however Midnight's Edge has been pretty good a predicting the upcoming movies/films direction.

    You know, I have always been a fan of contiguous, consistent universes, After seeing what’s happened with the Star Wars Universe, I can honestly say even with all the shenanigans going on behind the seen, Star Trek is still in a better position.


  • starswordcstarswordc Member Posts: 10,673 Arc User
    > @tobywitczak said:
    > If you haven’t seen or heard of it, I would recommend watching Midnight's Edge: Star Trek Discovery and the Return of Picard: The Controversies Behind The Scenes
    > The discovery we got has more to do with licensing between CBS and Paramount and merchandising then caring about what the fans wanted. DISCO is set in the Prime timeline because CBS “owns’ the Prime timeline, where as Paramount “owns” the Kelvin timeline.
    >
    > I know it has been said before, but may after the dust has settled in a decade, Paramount probably filing for bankruptcy and being bought by CBS, DISCO will eventually be pushed into the Kelvin as a prequel of sorts. That is unless CBS does something dumb like trying to wipe out the Prime and Kelvin timelines in favor of the DISCO timeline, which I would not put it past them…

    Oh, give me a break. Midnight's Edge is the Alex Jones of Star Trek fandom. He and Doomcock both hate the show and tell whatever half-truths or whole-cloth lies pop into their microscopic little brains to make it look bad. And anytime the show contradicts their "predictions" and "rumors" they try to twist their own words around to try to claim they were right "from a certain point of view".

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  • valoreahvaloreah Member Posts: 10,097 Arc User
    If you haven’t seen or heard of it, I would recommend watching Midnight's Edge: Star Trek Discovery and the Return of Picard: The Controversies Behind The Scenes
    The discovery we got has more to do with licensing between CBS and Paramount and merchandising then caring about what the fans wanted. DISCO is set in the Prime timeline because CBS “owns’ the Prime timeline, where as Paramount “owns” the Kelvin timeline.

    I know it has been said before, but may after the dust has settled in a decade, Paramount probably filing for bankruptcy and being bought by CBS, DISCO will eventually be pushed into the Kelvin as a prequel of sorts. That is unless CBS does something dumb like trying to wipe out the Prime and Kelvin timelines in favor of the DISCO timeline, which I would not put it past them…

    I find it both truly amazing and incredibly sad that people actually believe anything in those videos.
    Dear Devs: I enjoyed the Legacy of Romulus expansion much more than the Delta Rising expansion. .
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  • angrytargangrytarg Member Posts: 9,773 Arc User
    valoreah wrote: »
    I find it both truly amazing and incredibly sad that people actually believe anything in those videos.

    People will believe anything that happens to fit their point of view much more easily. Due to bias they might apply completely different standards to two different sources depending on what those sources say.​​
    2r2u1s2.jpg
    ^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
    "No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
    "A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
    "That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
  • valoreahvaloreah Member Posts: 10,097 Arc User
    angrytarg wrote: »
    People will believe anything that happens to fit their point of view much more easily. Due to bias they might apply completely different standards to two different sources depending on what those sources say.​​

    Of course. That isn't the scary part though - scary part is people will believe anything without facts/evidence to back it up.

    Dear Devs: I enjoyed the Legacy of Romulus expansion much more than the Delta Rising expansion. .
    thecosmic1 wrote:
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  • mustrumridcully0mustrumridcully0 Member Posts: 12,412 Arc User
    angrytarg wrote: »
    valoreah wrote: »
    I find it both truly amazing and incredibly sad that people actually believe anything in those videos.

    People will believe anything that happens to fit their point of view much more easily. Due to bias they might apply completely different standards to two different sources depending on what those sources say.​​

    This is obviously false. That would never happen to me or people that I agree with.

    :p

    @starswordc
    Also an interesting idea. Personally, I am not sure I want Star Trek to be so much about its inner politics.

    On the other hand, I really would like to see some dealing with the aftermath of the Dominion War. Not just some random new crisis out of nowhere,or just business as usual, but actually dealing with all the death and destruction it brought to the Quadrant.

    I haven't really read any Star Trek novels in the last 2 decades or so, except A Stitch in Time and Neverending Sacrifice. The latter deals also with the aftermath of the war, and I found that very intriguing. (Far more interesting on what I read about the Destiny novels story arc.) The idea of people being displaced after the war and trying to find a new home would also fit contemporary politics. And your idea of dealing with the Federation system risking corruption destroying the ideals it was founded would fit contemporary politics as well.


    But I also really could use a more escapist Star Trek story than that. :) But I don't expect that from Discovery or the Picard show.
    Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
  • angrytargangrytarg Member Posts: 9,773 Arc User
    starswordc wrote: »
    In point of fact, season one is already out on DVD/Blu-ray. So, paywall gone.

    Personally, my opinion of the first season is mixed to negative (they had a lot of good ideas but they also did a ton of dumb things), but I sure prefer DSC fans to DSC haters: they tend to be nicer to be around.
    I am not convinced the Discovery story is a great fit for the post-DS9/VOY era.

    1) The Quadrant is just coming out of a violent war already, the biggest yet in the Star Trek universe, that brought the Federation close to a potential collapse. Do we really want to say that our optimsitic, hopeful future of Star Trek, only consists of brutal wars?

    2) The Federation is established as "kinda a big deal". They aren't new kids on the block anymore, that have to still prove themselves against elder races. They have been tested by the Borg, the Dominion, and the Q, and have proven themselves repeatedly already. Should we really return it to the place of an underdog again?

    3) Even if the DSC Klingons are not 1:1 TNG Klingons, they are still a decadent warrior race. If DSC was set post VOY, I am sure people would have called them "Carbon Copy Klingons" or "High Budget Klingons" or whatever. And people complain about Spock's adopted sister coming out of nowhere, but an ancient warrior race that ignored the Federation for 100 years that was never mentioned on screen seems even more awkward.


    I don't know what the post VOY era should look like, but I think the whole Federation and the entirety of Starfleet playing underdog again doesn't seem to fit. Maybe that is also the reason why the TV/movie writers prefer making prequels instead of continuing the Star Trek story, because they think it works better when the heroes are the underdogs.

    There are ways to make the heroes underdogs again and stay in the future, but I think it would not involve threats to the entire Federation. It might be something like a ship far away from home. But that would be kinda a repeat of VOY. And it would mean that you might not get to use the Star Trek iconic elements as much - stuff like Klingons, Vulcans, Romulans, Borg (and maybe Ferengi and Cardassians, though I am not sure how iconic these really became compared to the aforementioned ones). If you use a franchise, but not use the elements that defined the franchise in the past, you have to answer why you're still using the franchise.
    but on the flipside, we did improve several words by removing those idiotic superfluous extra letters...*cogh*honor*cogh*armor*cogh*color*cogh*
    Improved your post further! The future of the English Language is in your grasp!

    I think a post-DS9-VOY story, especially one that would've just jossed most of STO and the novels, could've been really good.

    Here's my pitch: Go back to a ship-based story for mobility's sake, set it in the aftermath of the most destructive war on record. The Good Guys(tm) won, but what happens next? Cardassia is in ruins, billions are dead and homeless (the Dominion made it as far into the Federation as Betazed after all), the Klingons will need a decade to recover their strength and the Great Houses are in chaos from the deaths of patriarchs and heirs, and the Romulans have if anything strengthened their position, having come in late and suffered little to no damage to their homefront (at least publicly, the fact the head of the secret police is a double agent for the Federation is another issue). And Section 31 is trying to claim a bigger role, with their ultranationalist "Federation über Alles" ideology and all.

    What world is that going to be like? Between the Borg, the Klingon border conflict, the Maquis revolt, and the Dominion, the Federation's just suffered through eight years of war. And DS9 showed how humanity really isn't as perfect as it claimed to be: I can see a resurgence of isolationism and nationalism like we've seen recently in real life, it would be a fine time to shed light on the Federation's internal political structure and bring back Terra Prime from ENT times.

    So, the ship. Our captain served in the Dominion War, saw horror on a scale we can barely imagine (one of the things that made "The Siege of AR-558" so effective was that Robert Hewitt Wolfe based the setting and framing on his experience serving at Khe Sanh). And now the war's over, only it's really not: all the necessary evil that was built to win the war can be turned to the unnecessary evil. Starfleet's facing an identity crisis: are we the soldiers who defeated the Dominion, or are we explorers and diplomats who did what we had to do? And the dogmatic view of the Prime Directive would seem to support the isolationists who are surging in popularity.

    But no, the Federation is not this: the myth arc is about "climbing out of darkness". So instead of having another alien invasion, we take advantage of the high-level corruption that was seen in DS9 and late TNG and use that as the core of the story, a la where J. Michael Stracynski wanted to take Crusade's myth arc (the Drakh were supposed to just be the Disc One Final Boss). Or check out the Foundry collaborative series Purity from a few years ago. Essentially, Adm. Pressman, Adm. Leyton, and Adm. Dougherty weren't acting alone: more militant factions of Starfleet and the Federation's military-industrial-intelligence complex, Section 31 included, are trying to take advantage of the chaos and gain in power, many of them with the best of intentions (keeping the Federation safe from the next threat from nowhere like the Dominion or the Borg, and put the alien empires on the borders into further disarray because realpolitik), but with great and dark consequences. Our captain and his/her crew and allies, which grow to include independent thinkers in the other governments whom they befriend in encounters over the course of the story (let's have another Fed-Kling-Rom team-up like in the Debt of Honor comic book), oppose this, and start rooting out the corruption. Section 31 and its network are ultimately exposed and taken down and the Federation emerges stronger and happier, with more stable alliances and a safer Alpha Quadrant.

    (Yes, obviously I'm basing this partly on what's happened in the United States in my lifetime since the fall of the Soviet Union: without the big Russian bear roaring in the background, we're eating ourselves.)

    I really like that idea pig-1.gif I'm not sure how it would work in every detail, but for a pitch this is really interesting.​​
    2r2u1s2.jpg
    ^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
    "No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
    "A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
    "That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
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