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  • rattler2rattler2 Member Posts: 57,973 Community Moderator
    basically what we got now.
    so all you are lobbying for is a name change on vote down but not to remove it?

    Actually... I think we want the Insightful, Awesome, and LOL buttons back. Off Topic can basically be viewed as the counter to Insightful. Especially since the icon for Off Topic is an eye with a slash, whereas Insightful was just an eye.
    db80k0m-89201ed8-eadb-45d3-830f-bb2f0d4c0fe7.png?token=eyJ0eXAiOiJKV1QiLCJhbGciOiJIUzI1NiJ9.eyJzdWIiOiJ1cm46YXBwOjdlMGQxODg5ODIyNjQzNzNhNWYwZDQxNWVhMGQyNmUwIiwiaXNzIjoidXJuOmFwcDo3ZTBkMTg4OTgyMjY0MzczYTVmMGQ0MTVlYTBkMjZlMCIsIm9iaiI6W1t7InBhdGgiOiJcL2ZcL2ExOGQ4ZWM2LTUyZjQtNDdiMS05YTI1LTVlYmZkYmJkOGM3N1wvZGI4MGswbS04OTIwMWVkOC1lYWRiLTQ1ZDMtODMwZi1iYjJmMGQ0YzBmZTcucG5nIn1dXSwiYXVkIjpbInVybjpzZXJ2aWNlOmZpbGUuZG93bmxvYWQiXX0.8G-Pg35Qi8qxiKLjAofaKRH6fmNH3qAAEI628gW0eXc
    I can't take it anymore! Could everyone just chill out for two seconds before something CRAZY happens again?!
    The nut who actually ground out many packs. The resident forum voice of reason (I HAZ FORUM REP! YAY!)
  • mirrorchaosmirrorchaos Member Posts: 9,844 Arc User
    Well lookie here. 20 down votes over night, someone really has it out for me already, figures.
    T6 Miranda Hero Ship FTW.
    Been around since Dec 2010 on STO and bought LTS in Apr 2013 for STO.
  • jcswwjcsww Member Posts: 6,789 Arc User
    Well lookie here. 20 down votes over night, someone really has it out for me already, figures.

    Maybe return the favor until this mess gets fixed? If it ever gets fixed... Potentially consider downvoting the person who removed the wrong options as well to help deliver the message of how silly having a downvote option really is, especially when it is clearly being abused and impacting people with absolutely no sign of a system to deal with cases of abuse in place.
  • mirrorchaosmirrorchaos Member Posts: 9,844 Arc User
    edited September 2018
    jcsww wrote: »
    Well lookie here. 20 down votes over night, someone really has it out for me already, figures.

    Maybe return the favor until this mess gets fixed? If it ever gets fixed... Potentially consider downvoting the person who removed the wrong options as well to help deliver the message of how silly having a downvote option really is, especially when it is clearly being abused and impacting people with absolutely no sign of a system to deal with cases of abuse in place.

    1. i don't know of this person.
    2. the implication is that this could of a fake account setup by someone on this forum from one of the regular forumnites who is looking to vent without fear it will get back to them, but that type of accusation is exactly the toxicity i warned about a week ago when this started up. we don't need any more than what is already here and if this is a fake account they are doing a poor job at unity.
    3. i'm not the type to follow through on silly, stupid and petty vindictiveness or such childish behavior. sure i've had my ups and downs like anyone else on this forum, but all i care about is sticking to the point without the usual silliness or destructive crud that goes on.
    4. even if this is an actual user who isn't hiding behind a fake account, i never seen this userpost here before and they have jumped to a conclusion before they even get to know me. bias from the start isn't a legitimate reason for the abuse either.

    and there we are. the mods aren't here to fix my profile if they got no intention, and like meimeitoo, i am also a victim of this accursed reactions system.
    T6 Miranda Hero Ship FTW.
    Been around since Dec 2010 on STO and bought LTS in Apr 2013 for STO.
  • noodleman25#4079 noodleman25 Member Posts: 2 New User
    If person disabled or not able type very much without tire or type using eye movement. Up down vote allows interaction and sense of involvement and community even if not interact as much as like.
  • rattler2rattler2 Member Posts: 57,973 Community Moderator
    2. the implication is that this could of a fake account setup by someone on this forum from one of the regular forumnites who is looking to vent without fear it will get back to them, but that type of accusation is exactly the toxicity i warned about a week ago when this started up. we don't need any more than what is already here and if this is a fake account they are doing a poor job at unity.

    This is why I am concerned about the up/down voting manipulating thread placement. Its a simple matter to make throwaway accounts in order to spam one or the other to manipulate things in a desired direction.

    For example, as someone so eloquently demonstrated earlier in this very thread...
    Upvote the content you want IE bugfixes
    Downvote to oblivion content you don't want IE lack of Romulan ships or Discovery Content

    Its mob mentality censorship.

    Giving the average forumite that kind of power on this forum... its a recipe for disaster. Anyone who was around back when Delta Rising came out remembers the fires on the forums from many of the things that changed, such as the HP Sponge situation and the sheer amount of XP required to get 1 level starting at 50. Now... picture that kind of rage... combined with the ability to shuffle threads around via up/down voting.

    Its a nightmare waiting to happen. And with Age of Discovery coming soon...
    Well... we know how some people are rather vocal about their feelings about Discovery. And they now have a tool to further demonstrate their... "dislike" of Discovery. Its not gonna be just crying "Boycott" and rants about how "its not Star Trek" or "Saint Roddenberry is rolling in his grave" (as if we know what he'd say. Hell... his own SON said Gene would have liked Discovery), we're gonna have ANYTHING Discovery related that isn't stickied downvoted to oblivion so we cannot discuss any of it.
    db80k0m-89201ed8-eadb-45d3-830f-bb2f0d4c0fe7.png?token=eyJ0eXAiOiJKV1QiLCJhbGciOiJIUzI1NiJ9.eyJzdWIiOiJ1cm46YXBwOjdlMGQxODg5ODIyNjQzNzNhNWYwZDQxNWVhMGQyNmUwIiwiaXNzIjoidXJuOmFwcDo3ZTBkMTg4OTgyMjY0MzczYTVmMGQ0MTVlYTBkMjZlMCIsIm9iaiI6W1t7InBhdGgiOiJcL2ZcL2ExOGQ4ZWM2LTUyZjQtNDdiMS05YTI1LTVlYmZkYmJkOGM3N1wvZGI4MGswbS04OTIwMWVkOC1lYWRiLTQ1ZDMtODMwZi1iYjJmMGQ0YzBmZTcucG5nIn1dXSwiYXVkIjpbInVybjpzZXJ2aWNlOmZpbGUuZG93bmxvYWQiXX0.8G-Pg35Qi8qxiKLjAofaKRH6fmNH3qAAEI628gW0eXc
    I can't take it anymore! Could everyone just chill out for two seconds before something CRAZY happens again?!
    The nut who actually ground out many packs. The resident forum voice of reason (I HAZ FORUM REP! YAY!)
  • ambassadorkael#6946 ambassadorkael Member, Administrator Posts: 2,674 Community Manager
    Hey folks,

    For the time being, I've turned these off. I still think they have potential, but I've just been informed that you can see who's upvoting and downvoting you even if you're not a moderator, which is absolutely a recipe for abuse and bullying, so until I can find a way to fix that, goodbye reactions.
  • noodleman25#4079 noodleman25 Member Posts: 2 New User
    A sad day for disabled.
  • meimeitoomeimeitoo Member Posts: 12,587 Arc User
    Hey folks,

    For the time being, I've turned these off. I still think they have potential, but I've just been informed that you can see who's upvoting and downvoting you even if you're not a moderator, which is absolutely a recipe for abuse and bullying, so until I can find a way to fix that, goodbye reactions.


    Or just leave the up/downvoting out altogether. As if not being able to see who downvoted you doesn't open one up to abuse. :p
    3lsZz0w.jpg
  • rattler2rattler2 Member Posts: 57,973 Community Moderator
    Yea... at least bring back the Insightful, Awesome, and LOL. Off Topic can be viewed as the opposite of Insightful. And thanks for recognizing the ability for people to abuse it.
    A sad day for disabled.

    Its been getting abused big time. Better to take it down for a bit to reassess than leave it up until fixed to be abused in the meantime.
    db80k0m-89201ed8-eadb-45d3-830f-bb2f0d4c0fe7.png?token=eyJ0eXAiOiJKV1QiLCJhbGciOiJIUzI1NiJ9.eyJzdWIiOiJ1cm46YXBwOjdlMGQxODg5ODIyNjQzNzNhNWYwZDQxNWVhMGQyNmUwIiwiaXNzIjoidXJuOmFwcDo3ZTBkMTg4OTgyMjY0MzczYTVmMGQ0MTVlYTBkMjZlMCIsIm9iaiI6W1t7InBhdGgiOiJcL2ZcL2ExOGQ4ZWM2LTUyZjQtNDdiMS05YTI1LTVlYmZkYmJkOGM3N1wvZGI4MGswbS04OTIwMWVkOC1lYWRiLTQ1ZDMtODMwZi1iYjJmMGQ0YzBmZTcucG5nIn1dXSwiYXVkIjpbInVybjpzZXJ2aWNlOmZpbGUuZG93bmxvYWQiXX0.8G-Pg35Qi8qxiKLjAofaKRH6fmNH3qAAEI628gW0eXc
    I can't take it anymore! Could everyone just chill out for two seconds before something CRAZY happens again?!
    The nut who actually ground out many packs. The resident forum voice of reason (I HAZ FORUM REP! YAY!)
  • primar13primar13 Member Posts: 1,896 Bug Hunter
    Hey folks,

    For the time being, I've turned these off. I still think they have potential, but I've just been informed that you can see who's upvoting and downvoting you even if you're not a moderator, which is absolutely a recipe for abuse and bullying, so until I can find a way to fix that, goodbye reactions.

    Personally I prefer forum posts to appear in chronological order. If I want posts to be shown based on a ranking system, I'll go over to /r/sto.
  • seaofsorrowsseaofsorrows Member Posts: 10,918 Arc User
    Hey folks,

    For the time being, I've turned these off. I still think they have potential, but I've just been informed that you can see who's upvoting and downvoting you even if you're not a moderator, which is absolutely a recipe for abuse and bullying, so until I can find a way to fix that, goodbye reactions.

    Are you insane?

    You only want it if the down voting is anonymous? lol.. you can't be serious?

    Anonymous down voting opens things up to FAR more abuse then the system where you could see who down voted you. The way you want it is seriously the biggest way to open up abuse possible.

    If you find a way to enable anonymous down voting, please use some common sense and don't use it. That idea is just obviously bad.
    Insert witty signature line here.
  • tunebreakertunebreaker Member Posts: 1,222 Arc User
    Hey folks,

    For the time being, I've turned these off. I still think they have potential, but I've just been informed that you can see who's upvoting and downvoting you even if you're not a moderator, which is absolutely a recipe for abuse and bullying, so until I can find a way to fix that, goodbye reactions.

    Are you insane?

    You only want it if the down voting is anonymous? lol.. you can't be serious?

    Anonymous down voting opens things up to FAR more abuse then the system where you could see who down voted you. The way you want it is seriously the biggest way to open up abuse possible.

    If you find a way to enable anonymous down voting, please use some common sense and don't use it. That idea is just obviously bad.

    I would upvote you, or react as "insightful". But eh...
  • meimeitoomeimeitoo Member Posts: 12,587 Arc User
    Hey folks,

    For the time being, I've turned these off. I still think they have potential, but I've just been informed that you can see who's upvoting and downvoting you even if you're not a moderator, which is absolutely a recipe for abuse and bullying, so until I can find a way to fix that, goodbye reactions.

    Are you insane?

    You only want it if the down voting is anonymous? lol.. you can't be serious?

    Anonymous down voting opens things up to FAR more abuse then the system where you could see who down voted you. The way you want it is seriously the biggest way to open up abuse possible.

    If you find a way to enable anonymous down voting, please use some common sense and don't use it. That idea is just obviously bad.


    ^^ You just won the Internet! :)
    3lsZz0w.jpg
  • duncanidaho11duncanidaho11 Member Posts: 7,867 Arc User
    edited September 2018

    Anonymous down voting opens things up to FAR more abuse then the system where you could see who down voted you.

    How? If someone intends to abuse the system then there's absolutely nothing that a public rating will do to prevent that from happening. Affected users can't clear it (just because they know who it's from), effectively rally the community in their defense (spammers can do that too, enter group hazing), or respond to it in any way besides downvoting that person back or getting snippier in discussion. What remains is the certain knowledge of targeted harassment. Then enter retaliation, grudges, and increasing polarity in discourse (as background elements and additive factors for the above.) That's not an improvement on the situation, at all.

    Voting on comments is highly problematic, but public voting is more so. Awesome, lol, positive reactions are nice to get a public pat on the back from but the rest should be (if ever experimented with again) kept private and mod viewable.
    Bipedal mammal and senior Foundry author.
    Notable missions: Apex [AEI], Gemini [SSF], Trident [AEI], Evolution's Smile [SSF], Transcendence
    Looking for something new to play? I've started building Foundry missions again in visual novel form!
  • tunebreakertunebreaker Member Posts: 1,222 Arc User

    Anonymous down voting opens things up to FAR more abuse then the system where you could see who down voted you.

    How? If someone intends to abuse the system then there's absolutely nothing that a public rating will do to prevent that from happening. Affected users can't clear it or respond to it in any way besides downvoting voting that person back or getting snippier in discussion with that user. Enter retaliation, grudges, and increasing polarity in the comment system. That's not an improvement on the situation, at all.

    Believe it or not, having your name publicly associated with something can hinder quite a few people. Not everyone, obviously, but many. Making it anonymous would mean absolutely no consequences to people who want to downvote others just out of spite, so naturally they would do so.
  • rattler2rattler2 Member Posts: 57,973 Community Moderator
    tumblr_no9d35J0qA1rv5j9yo1_500.gif
    db80k0m-89201ed8-eadb-45d3-830f-bb2f0d4c0fe7.png?token=eyJ0eXAiOiJKV1QiLCJhbGciOiJIUzI1NiJ9.eyJzdWIiOiJ1cm46YXBwOjdlMGQxODg5ODIyNjQzNzNhNWYwZDQxNWVhMGQyNmUwIiwiaXNzIjoidXJuOmFwcDo3ZTBkMTg4OTgyMjY0MzczYTVmMGQ0MTVlYTBkMjZlMCIsIm9iaiI6W1t7InBhdGgiOiJcL2ZcL2ExOGQ4ZWM2LTUyZjQtNDdiMS05YTI1LTVlYmZkYmJkOGM3N1wvZGI4MGswbS04OTIwMWVkOC1lYWRiLTQ1ZDMtODMwZi1iYjJmMGQ0YzBmZTcucG5nIn1dXSwiYXVkIjpbInVybjpzZXJ2aWNlOmZpbGUuZG93bmxvYWQiXX0.8G-Pg35Qi8qxiKLjAofaKRH6fmNH3qAAEI628gW0eXc
    I can't take it anymore! Could everyone just chill out for two seconds before something CRAZY happens again?!
    The nut who actually ground out many packs. The resident forum voice of reason (I HAZ FORUM REP! YAY!)
  • duncanidaho11duncanidaho11 Member Posts: 7,867 Arc User
    edited September 2018
    Believe it or not, having your name publicly associated with something can hinder quite a few people. Not everyone, obviously, but many. Making it anonymous would mean absolutely no consequences to people who want to downvote others just out of spite, so naturally they would do so.

    I think that's dependent on how much you identify with your name on a forum and value the opinions of those around you. We're already dealing with an anonymous comment system here through the use of selected handles. Some value their Arc personality more than others but IMO the most likely people to be dissuaded by public voting are conscientious posters who are unlikely to engage in targeted harassment campaigns in the first place (and might be best suited to the well apportioned use of agree/disagree buttons. So, without their influence covering over spite voting, what's left is just the personality driven TRIBBLE-for-tat, picking sides, and abuse. Ie. the high school drama and worse.)

    It's a tricky situation either way, I just don't see the public side being an overt positive influence (the underlying problem of abusive behavior will mess things up regardless.)
    Post edited by duncanidaho11 on
    Bipedal mammal and senior Foundry author.
    Notable missions: Apex [AEI], Gemini [SSF], Trident [AEI], Evolution's Smile [SSF], Transcendence
    Looking for something new to play? I've started building Foundry missions again in visual novel form!
  • rattler2rattler2 Member Posts: 57,973 Community Moderator
    Picture the rage from Delta Rising... and combine it with what we had while testing the reactions. Any dissenters who don't agree with people on hating something... INSTANTLY downvoted because "You didn't agree with me".

    Any threads trying to discuss ways to fix things that don't involved reverting back will be downvoted to oblivion because "you don't agree with me".
    Any threads trying to talk about new things in a positive light will be downvoted to oblivion because "you don't agree with me".

    That's the primary issue with the forum threads moving around based on votes.
    db80k0m-89201ed8-eadb-45d3-830f-bb2f0d4c0fe7.png?token=eyJ0eXAiOiJKV1QiLCJhbGciOiJIUzI1NiJ9.eyJzdWIiOiJ1cm46YXBwOjdlMGQxODg5ODIyNjQzNzNhNWYwZDQxNWVhMGQyNmUwIiwiaXNzIjoidXJuOmFwcDo3ZTBkMTg4OTgyMjY0MzczYTVmMGQ0MTVlYTBkMjZlMCIsIm9iaiI6W1t7InBhdGgiOiJcL2ZcL2ExOGQ4ZWM2LTUyZjQtNDdiMS05YTI1LTVlYmZkYmJkOGM3N1wvZGI4MGswbS04OTIwMWVkOC1lYWRiLTQ1ZDMtODMwZi1iYjJmMGQ0YzBmZTcucG5nIn1dXSwiYXVkIjpbInVybjpzZXJ2aWNlOmZpbGUuZG93bmxvYWQiXX0.8G-Pg35Qi8qxiKLjAofaKRH6fmNH3qAAEI628gW0eXc
    I can't take it anymore! Could everyone just chill out for two seconds before something CRAZY happens again?!
    The nut who actually ground out many packs. The resident forum voice of reason (I HAZ FORUM REP! YAY!)
  • duncanidaho11duncanidaho11 Member Posts: 7,867 Arc User
    rattler2 wrote: »
    Picture the rage from Delta Rising... and combine it with what we had while testing the reactions. Any dissenters who don't agree with people on hating something... INSTANTLY downvoted because "You didn't agree with me".

    Any threads trying to discuss ways to fix things that don't involved reverting back will be downvoted to oblivion because "you don't agree with me".
    Any threads trying to talk about new things in a positive light will be downvoted to oblivion because "you don't agree with me".

    That's the primary issue with the forum threads moving around based on votes.

    Or the landing page feedback thread. ;)
    Bipedal mammal and senior Foundry author.
    Notable missions: Apex [AEI], Gemini [SSF], Trident [AEI], Evolution's Smile [SSF], Transcendence
    Looking for something new to play? I've started building Foundry missions again in visual novel form!
  • jcswwjcsww Member Posts: 6,789 Arc User
    > @meimeitoo said:
    > ambassadorkael#6946 wrote: »
    >
    > Hey folks,
    >
    > For the time being, I've turned these off. I still think they have potential, but I've just been informed that you can see who's upvoting and downvoting you even if you're not a moderator, which is absolutely a recipe for abuse and bullying, so until I can find a way to fix that, goodbye reactions.
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    > Or just leave the up/downvoting out altogether. As if not being able to see who downvoted you doesn't open one up to abuse. :p

    It's sad when the only reason they were disabled was because you could see who was abusing the system. Talk about wanting to protect the wrong people!
  • duncanidaho11duncanidaho11 Member Posts: 7,867 Arc User
    edited September 2018
    jcsww wrote: »
    It's sad when the only reason they were disabled was because you could see who was abusing the system. Talk about wanting to protect the wrong people!

    Well part of the deep psychological pressure online harassment can cause is knowing that a single person or group is following you and making online interactions difficult. It gives abusers the ability to assert themselves over their target and with a voting system there's no way for that user to respond besides reacting back (if that user is also posting in discussion) which isn't likely to fix the situation. Neither is there any ability for other users to step in (they can't prevent vote-stalking with the tools at hand.)

    Getting a handful of downvotes isn't in itself a deeply troubling problem, you could just assume that you're stepping into an emotionally charged discussion and anyone there can be expressing their disagreement. There's no immediate connection to draw. Knowing it's the same people every time: that's no longer background. That's personal harassment (and Kael did not say that they wanted voting to be private from mods, just private from other users.)

    Now that isn't to say that vote/rating harassment can't happen on more anonymous platforms (see. targeted harassment on youtube and reddit.) It's just that (IMO) public voting introduces other factors which gives more power to those engaged with abuse and an aspect which they can leverage to paint their campaign as part of community level discourse (setting the conflict as us v. them and gaslighting the roots of harassment, using public shaming to isolate their target rather than being chastened by it.)
    Post edited by duncanidaho11 on
    Bipedal mammal and senior Foundry author.
    Notable missions: Apex [AEI], Gemini [SSF], Trident [AEI], Evolution's Smile [SSF], Transcendence
    Looking for something new to play? I've started building Foundry missions again in visual novel form!
  • eazzieeazzie Member Posts: 3,980 Arc User
    The system as a whole was an introduction of stealth bullying. It goes against everything Star Trek stands for. Glad to see the back of it. May it never return. Bad idea to begin with.
  • seaofsorrowsseaofsorrows Member Posts: 10,918 Arc User
    edited September 2018
    Public down voting is like posting a reply.. you put your name with your action. Yes, it's an Arc ID it's not your social security number, but it's still a sense of accountability. When someone targets you just because they don't like you personally (which we all know happens) you have a record of it. Down voting is kept in check because constantly down voting someone for no reason not only shows everyone that you're abusing the system but it opens you to retaliation. Anonymous down voting removes all that and makes it totally anonymous.

    What if you have 3-4 buddies on the forum who are active? You could all gang up together and just downvote a user to the bottom of every thread.. no one would ever know. They wouldn't even know who was targeting them.

    We have forum moderators for a reason, they can handle cases of abuse without users being able to 'down vote' things. Anonymous or not, the system holds too much potential for abuse and should be left permanently disabled. Leave that garbage on Reddit where it belongs.
    Insert witty signature line here.
  • duncanidaho11duncanidaho11 Member Posts: 7,867 Arc User
    edited September 2018
    What if you have 3-4 buddies on the forum who are active? You could all gang up together and just downvote a user to the bottom of every thread.. no one would ever know. They wouldn't even know who was targeting them.

    Except the forum mods.
    Post edited by duncanidaho11 on
    Bipedal mammal and senior Foundry author.
    Notable missions: Apex [AEI], Gemini [SSF], Trident [AEI], Evolution's Smile [SSF], Transcendence
    Looking for something new to play? I've started building Foundry missions again in visual novel form!
  • meimeitoomeimeitoo Member Posts: 12,587 Arc User
    Hey folks,

    For the time being, I've turned these off. I still think they have potential, but I've just been informed that you can see who's upvoting and downvoting you even if you're not a moderator, which is absolutely a recipe for abuse and bullying, so until I can find a way to fix that, goodbye reactions.

    Are you insane?

    You only want it if the down voting is anonymous? lol.. you can't be serious?

    Anonymous down voting opens things up to FAR more abuse then the system where you could see who down voted you. The way you want it is seriously the biggest way to open up abuse possible.

    If you find a way to enable anonymous down voting, please use some common sense and don't use it. That idea is just obviously bad.


    Public downvoting is the only thing which kept ppl in check... kinda. Downvoters often have a standing in the community themselves; malicious downvoting was being noticed, and frowned upon, and opened oneself to possible retaliatory counter-downvoting. Without their public fingerprint all over their dasdardy deeds, ppl would literally no longer experience any inhibitions to downvote as much as they want. And at least with public downvoting you could file an abuse report against the person having it in for you.

    So, it does indeed seem Kael has taken a leave of absence of his mental faculties, if he's seriously considering 'improving' the system by introducing anonymous downvoting.
    3lsZz0w.jpg
  • meimeitoomeimeitoo Member Posts: 12,587 Arc User
    edited September 2018
    You could all gang up together and just downvote a user to the bottom of every thread.. no one would ever know.

    Except the forum mods.


    And, pray-tell, how do you propose the mods would go about this?! Just continually check every post/user id, to see whether per chance illicit downvoting took place? And what sort of complaint could I lodge? "I think I'm being downvoted, cuz my posts are sinking in the thread. Could you guys please look into this?" Even the grievance I filed against ppl I knew who had excessively downvoted me, it didn't seem to make much of a difference.

    The only workable way to deal with downvotes, is to simply outlaw the practice. Better for the players, better for the mods.
    3lsZz0w.jpg
  • seaofsorrowsseaofsorrows Member Posts: 10,918 Arc User
    You could all gang up together and just downvote a user to the bottom of every thread.. no one would ever know.

    Except the forum mods.

    Yeah, lets put it all on the mods to prevent abuse. They have nothing better to do but monitor the forum constantly checking down votes for abuse and noting individual user patterns.. sure.

    You know an even easier way to prevent abuse? Just leave the system disabled.

    The system has no upside at all.
    Insert witty signature line here.
  • duncanidaho11duncanidaho11 Member Posts: 7,867 Arc User
    edited September 2018
    meimeitoo wrote: »

    And, pray-tell, how do you propose the mods would go about this?! Just continually check every post/user id, to see whether per chance illicit downvoting took place? And what sort of complaint could I lodge? "I think I'm being downvoted, cuz my posts are sinking in the thread. Could you guys please look into this?" Even the grievance I filed against ppl I knew who had excessively downvoted me, it didn't seem to make much of a difference.

    Flags for buried posts and, if possible, mod notifications for votes on a single user beyond an undisclosed threshold, not that I'm saying that voting should be brought back (really guys?), only that is naïve to believe that making downvotes public would prevent abuse. That simply does not happen across the full span of social media in micro or in the infamous cases of larger scale online harassment. Both anonymous and public feedback/comment systems are used in harassment campaigns and the public attempts aren't any less capable of bullying/stalking folks off platforms and out of public life (quite the contrary).

    You know an even easier way to prevent abuse? Just leave the system disabled.

    The system has no upside at all.

    Again, in no terms am I arguing for binary voting to be brought back. Superficial likes/kudos should be the extent of any further experimentation with forum reactions, if the issue is to be looked at in future.
    Bipedal mammal and senior Foundry author.
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  • jcswwjcsww Member Posts: 6,789 Arc User
    jcsww wrote: »
    It's sad when the only reason they were disabled was because you could see who was abusing the system. Talk about wanting to protect the wrong people!

    Well part of the deep psychological pressure online harassment can cause is knowing that a single person or group is following you and making online interactions difficult. It gives abusers the ability to assert themselves over their target and with a voting system there's no way for that user to respond besides reacting back (if that user is also posting in discussion) which isn't likely to fix the situation. Neither is there any ability for other users to step in (they can't prevent vote-stalking with the tools at hand.)

    Getting a handful of downvotes isn't in itself a deeply troubling problem, you could just assume that you're stepping into an emotionally charged discussion and anyone there can be expressing their disagreement. There's no immediate connection to draw. Knowing it's the same people every time: that's no longer background. That's personal harassment (and Kael did not say that they wanted voting to be private from mods, just private from other users.)

    Now that isn't to say that vote/rating harassment can't happen on more anonymous platforms (see. targeted harassment on youtube and reddit.) It's just that (IMO) public voting introduces other factors which gives more power to those engaged with abuse and an aspect which they can leverage to paint their campaign as part of community level discourse (setting the conflict as us v. them and gaslighting the roots of harassment, using public shaming to isolate their target rather than being chastened by it.)

    So, you are essentially saying that a person not knowing someone is harassing them is better than them knowing? Your whole post basically screams, if there is no evidence, then there is no reason to be suspicious and as a result, no one needs to do anything about it. The public system doesn't even detect and report abuse!

    Meimeitoo, as a user who has clearly been harassed by this system and who knows how many others as well, you are basically saying, it doesn't matter and we will find a way to cover it up before re-releasing it.
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