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Foundry Call to Arms - Article by Starbase UGC

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  • sirsitsalotsirsitsalot Member Posts: 1,553 Arc User
    edited August 2018
    I just wand to clarify that I am not calling for the removal of the rewards. What I was badly trying to say was that I feel that foundry should not have had them in the first place. When foundry was announced it sounded like the perfect alternative to the mind-numbing grindfest the rest of the game had always been. It seemed perfect for those who wanted to tell stories and for those who wanted to experience them. Attach rewards to it, and then for a lot of people it would be more about finding the missions that can be played through the quickest just to grab some shiny shiny. And in the beginning, exploit missions were being put up that involved just hitting a button to complete the mission. This ticked foundry authors off, because these throwaway missions were pushing legitimate story missions down the list, the way it was originally. Cryptic had to intervene, and they did so by implementing the time range requirement.

    Ideally, Foundry would never have been exploitable. But it was. And Foundry is what it is, and I am NOT calling for that to change. But if I am going to be a part of this discussion, and hopefully a part of the solution, I wanted to lay out all my cards on the table. And I will say that I do not want to see foundry offering any more rewards to incentivize its use. At least not in the form of additional dilithium payouts.

    I mentioned that it would be cool if we could use foundry to create alien civilizations as well as missions. The civilization mechanics would ideally have some system-driven mini game mechanics that would allow players to do things for gameplay rewards as an incentive for visiting different civilizations, And civilization builders would be able to know what they are and wrap their civilization story around them, if they want to maximize creativity. But keep in mind that these would be system-driven elements. I will expand on this later, but I have to get ready for work.

    Have a good day everyone...
    Post edited by sirsitsalot on
    I have no snarky remarks to make, at this time...
  • duncanidaho11duncanidaho11 Member Posts: 7,320 Arc User
    edited August 2018
    Ideally, Foundry would never have been exploitable. But it was. And Foundry is what it is, and I am NOT calling for that to change. But if I am going to be a part of this discussion, and hopefully a part of the solution, I wanted to lay out all my cards on the table. And I will say that I do not want to see foundry offering any more rewards to incentivize its use. At least not in the form of additional dilithium payouts.

    Yeah, simply buffing the base monetary payout might adjust cost-benefit decisions but the logic favors grinders over narrative missions or at the very least some missions (short spotlights) over others (longer missions from the general community.) It's a complicating benefit and we already have the Foundry endeavor to touch on the same motivator as an impactful highlight. Plus it doesn't directly address what else is going on with the Foundry. To that, I think we're at a consensus of fix bugs being number one. So to provide documentation in this thread, here are the bugs we're referring to:

    Some missions are inexplicably failing to qualify for rewards (at random?)
    https://www.arcgames.com/en/forums/startrekonline/#/discussion/1239490/missions-offering-foundry-rewards-prior-to-latest-release-no-longer-doing-so/p1

    Players cannot use their keyboard in the Foundry (without alt-tabing)
    https://www.arcgames.com/en/forums/startrekonline/#/discussion/1239951/critical-bug-authors-losing-the-ability-to-enter-text-into-the-foundry-work-around

    Map transitions do not work in the Foundry editor
    https://www.arcgames.com/en/forums/startrekonline/#/discussion/1226347/map-transition-problem

    Objective waypoints (sporadically) fail to generate for publish missions
    https://www.arcgames.com/en/forums/startrekonline#/discussion/1240127/place-markers-no-longer-showing-up-in-published-missions

    Published Foundry space maps have no lighting options under lighting 2.0 (be we DO in the editor, make that carry over!)
    https://www.arcgames.com/en/forums/startrekonline#/discussion/1232198/lighting-2-0-in-space-non-functional-have-no-options

    Foundry doors in social zones have no visual FX to designate
    http://www.arcgames.com/en/forums/startrekonline?byNode=true#/discussion/1215537/foundry-doors-in-social-hubs-arent-glowing-again

    Some planets are missing textures (listed)
    https://www.arcgames.com/en/forums/startrekonline#/discussion/1227915/some-planets-are-missing-their-textures-listed

    And here's the "Foundry master bug list"
    https://www.arcgames.com/en/forums/startrekonline#/discussion/1127422/master-foundry-bug-list/p1

    And some minor suggestions:
    • Add the DS9 spiral staircase as a detail asset
    • Hook up the Gamma Quadrant Foundry doors
    • Add DS9 to this list of social maps the KDF can use
    • Add Jem'Hadar to the Foundry tailor
    • Maps: New Kentar, Mirror Bajor, New DS9, the AOY maps Maria was working on
    • Fix missing geo for Civilian Generator assets (link: Bug Thread)
    Bipedal mammal and senior Foundry author.
    RDrirz1.png

    New mission: Shattered Relic [SSF3-2 | ICO]
    For the latest Tardigrades and Foundry news: @Gorgonops_SSF
    Looking for something new to play? The interactive Foundry Mission Database has you covered.
  • mattjohnsonvamattjohnsonva Member Posts: 4,850 Arc User
    Thanks for that Duncan. I think we both asked questions this evening on the live stream but I didn't hear any answers, did you? Seems they only wanted to talk about the CC queue, which is fair enough but probably also means they have no news on any of the above, unless I missed something.
  • ashstorm1ashstorm1 Member Posts: 600 Arc User

    And some minor suggestions:
    • Add the DS9 spiral staircase as a detail asset
    • Hook up the Gamma Quadrant Foundry doors
    • Add DS9 to this list of social maps the KDF can use
    • Add Jem'Hadar to the Foundry tailor
    • Maps: New Kentar, Mirror Bajor, New DS9, the AOY maps Maria was working on
    • Fix missing geo for Civilian Generator assets (link: Bug Thread)

    Some maps from the Delta Quadrant still need to be added as well :
    - Kobali Prime
    - The inside of the Kobali temple
    - Talaxian colony

    I'm surprised those weren't added yet, considering Delta Rising was released at the end of 2014.
  • duncanidaho11duncanidaho11 Member Posts: 7,320 Arc User
    edited August 2018
    ashstorm1 wrote: »

    And some minor suggestions:
    • Add the DS9 spiral staircase as a detail asset
    • Hook up the Gamma Quadrant Foundry doors
    • Add DS9 to this list of social maps the KDF can use
    • Add Jem'Hadar to the Foundry tailor
    • Maps: New Kentar, Mirror Bajor, New DS9, the AOY maps Maria was working on
    • Fix missing geo for Civilian Generator assets (link: Bug Thread)

    Some maps from the Delta Quadrant still need to be added as well :
    - Kobali Prime
    - The inside of the Kobali temple
    - Talaxian colony

    I'm surprised those weren't added yet, considering Delta Rising was released at the end of 2014.

    It comes down to priority. It does take quite a bit of work to get maps into a state suitable for the Foundry and this has been made on dev volunteer time. I'm not sure what needs to go into the technical side but the major practical change that needs to happen (from what Zero briefly described) is that these maps need to be stripped of all their mission content; objectives, NPC's, triggers, FX, interactive assets (ex. doors), and so on. They don't have a blank version on hand to easily export. For that reason I don't think an adventure zone or battlezone is a practical ask (we could probably get a few maps in the time it takes to clean Kobali Prime to its empty state). But we might (in the Foundry discussion forums) bring up the topic of maps that were passed over from various seasons and could still be put to productive use in the Foundry (to help Kael focus on what would help us most when he or other devs have the time to add more maps, keeping in mind that it'll probably be a short list when that time comes.)

    Thanks for that Duncan. I think we both asked questions this evening on the live stream but I didn't hear any answers, did you? Seems they only wanted to talk about the CC queue, which is fair enough but probably also means they have no news on any of the above, unless I missed something.

    Typically that means that the question has been received but there isn't a satisfying answer to give at this time. Ie. they haven't been able to send a dev to tackle the problem or that they have and progress hasn't yet been made. Basically: no news yet but asking doesn't hurt. It keeps the issue on dev radar and shows people have an interest beyond Roundtable. ;)
    Bipedal mammal and senior Foundry author.
    RDrirz1.png

    New mission: Shattered Relic [SSF3-2 | ICO]
    For the latest Tardigrades and Foundry news: @Gorgonops_SSF
    Looking for something new to play? The interactive Foundry Mission Database has you covered.
  • captainhunter1captainhunter1 Member Posts: 1,386 Arc User

    It comes down to priority. It does take quite a bit of work to get maps into a state suitable for the Foundry and this has been made on dev volunteer time.

    And this is the very crux of the current state of the Foundry.

    We have fantastic folks at Cryptic who have to PUT IN THEIR OWN TIME to keep the Foundry running. THIS ISN'T RIGHT.

    PWE needs to PAY these people for their time. And yes, the Foundry isn't monetized, so PWE sees no direct profit from assigning dev time to it. But neither are things like the Risa Summer or Crystalline Catastrophe event, yet those things pull in more players, which indirectly increases profits. And PWE spends paid dev time on those!

    I really don't think PWE realizes just how important the Foundry is in doing the EXACT SAME THING. Pulling in profits indirectly - - and is also a major player retention feature!.

    As I mentioned earlier, they could use the Foundry as a basis for an amazing exploration system that no other game has - a feature people have been asking for a very long time. PWE can use this as an excuse to spend some PAID dev time to fix all the issues with the Foundry, AND FINALLY GIVE US A DESPARATELY NEEDED NEW USER INTERFACE (see sig).

    Come on PWE, look beyond your nose. Spend some money on Foundry development time. Your share holders will thank you for it later!

  • sirsitsalotsirsitsalot Member Posts: 1,553 Arc User
    As I mentioned earlier, they could use the Foundry as a basis for an amazing exploration system that no other game has - a feature people have been asking for a very long time. PWE can use this as an excuse to spend some PAID dev time to fix all the issues with the Foundry, AND FINALLY GIVE US A DESPARATELY NEEDED NEW USER INTERFACE (see sig).

    Come on PWE, look beyond your nose. Spend some money on Foundry development time. Your share holders will thank you for it later!

    The great big fly in the ointment is that Cryptic seems to have written off the development of an exploration SYSTEM. So there really doesn't seem to be a firm foothold for exploration to serve as any sort of motivator for PWE to allocate paid human resources to it.

    However, IF the foundry were given some extended functionality that would permit something akin to what players of the old MUDs or MUSHs used to be able to do, and actually build persistent environments, then it would indeed be possible to use foundry to facilitate the development of exploration content...

    The first thing that needs to happen is to allow non-linear map transition in foundry projects, so players can travel between maps freely without being locked into a linear process of objective completion. This will allow authors to set up their own persistent locations which could have multiple maps branching from a central hub. This could be something as simple as a custom map to serve as their ship interior (another requested function for the foundry) or an alien civilization of their own design consisting of several maps. We don't really need the ability to design our own terrain for planetary maps. A diverse collection of landscapes would suffice. And before anyone scoffs at that, I would like to invite you to look at the different survival videos made with Space Engineers that use the same planets. The ability to build freely, even without deformable terrain, makes for a wide variety of layouts. It would be nice to have those design tools, but I would like to see improvements and additions in my lifetime :p

    Within a civilization hub, NPCs we place could become mission-givers for foundry missions we have written with our Civilization as the basis.

    Tie it into the game by bringing back the exploration clusters, but not the way they were used before. In this case, the XYZ coordinates would correspond with the civilization's server-side ID. Take the ship to a set of coordinates and click a new explore button. If a civilization has been created at those coordinates, the game loads into its root space map. If not the game will tell the player the closest civilization to the coordinates with the option to travel there... same result.

    It doesn't have to be a planet, either. It could be a starbase or a ship. Ideal for foundry authors who want to write their own series within STO.
    I have no snarky remarks to make, at this time...
  • psycoticvulcanpsycoticvulcan Member Posts: 4,159 Arc User
    I've been away from STO for a few months, but from this point forward I'm gonna spend as much time as I can in the Foundry. Maybe I can finally finish that series I'd been working on.

    Cryptic, the Foundry deserves so much better than it gets. I'm begging you, please do not let this wonderful feature fall into total disrepair!
    NJ9oXSO.png
    "Critics who say that the optimistic utopia Star Trek depicted is now outmoded forget the cultural context that gave birth to it: Star Trek was not a manifestation of optimism when optimism was easy. Star Trek declared a hope for a future that nobody stuck in the present could believe in. For all our struggles today, we haven’t outgrown the need for stories like Star Trek. We need tales of optimism, of heroes, of courage and goodness now as much as we’ve ever needed them."
    -Thomas Marrone
  • mrspam404mrspam404 Member Posts: 57 Arc User
    Foundry missions are cool and all,but when Star trek reaches its end of life no one would stick around for the foundry, nor would Cryptic even operate the game after they squeeze the last dime outta the last player.....Just the way it is.
  • rickywong#3975 rickywong Member Posts: 3 Arc User
    edited September 2018
    mrspam404 wrote: »
    Foundry missions are cool and all,but when Star trek reaches its end of life no one would stick around for the foundry

    Well, I would, at least for a time. So your assertion about how "no one would stick around" has been instantly proven wrong with my first sentence.


    Anyway, as an avid foundry player and reviewer, I'd just like to point out that after playing virtually all the spotlighted missions (that aren't garbage "accolade" or "farming" missions and pure "social" maps just aren't my thing), I find it frustrating at times to find other foundry missions. Especially older ones.
    I realise that there are lists of them on various websites, including this one. But why should I be forced to use resources such as that, when I can't see why a COMPLETE list of them should not be available in-game when I select "Browse All"? "All" being the key word here.
    Too often, I've had to use the various websites, only to sometimes find that one that seems worth checking out has been removed, or fly around from planet to planet to planet (sometimes for 45mins to an hour) just to find something worth reviewing. That's assuming I actually do find something and don't end up giving up to go watch a movie instead.
    Oh and before anyone asks, yes, my character is max level/rep.
  • where2r1where2r1 Member Posts: 5,611 Arc User
    edited September 2018
    mrspam404 wrote: »
    Foundry missions are cool and all,but when Star trek reaches its end of life no one would stick around for the foundry

    Well, I would, at least for a time. So your assertion about how "no one would stick around" has been instantly proven wrong with my first sentence.


    Anyway, as an avid foundry player and reviewer, I'd just like to point out that after playing virtually all the spotlighted missions (that aren't garbage "accolade" or "farming" missions and pure "social" maps just aren't my thing), I find it frustrating at times to find other foundry missions. Especially older ones.
    I realise that there are lists of them on various websites, including this one. But why should I be forced to use resources such as that, when I can't see why a COMPLETE list of them should not be available in-game when I select "Browse All"? "All" being the key word here.
    Too often, I've had to use the various websites, only to sometimes find that one that seems worth checking out has been removed, or fly around from planet to planet to planet (sometimes for 45mins to an hour) just to find something worth reviewing. That's assuming I actually do find something and don't end up giving up to go watch a movie instead.
    Oh and before anyone asks, yes, my character is max level/rep.

    Any where in the game where "search" is involved...it is bad. From Foundry mission searches, to Exchange, to Admiralty cards and DOFFs. PvE UI....and that is new. Ugh! I am not sure why that is. Why it has to be.

    I have used the "farming" missions, I have done DOFF "grinders" which is very helpful for me setting up Away Teams. I know there is a mission in there for parsing and testing DPS on ships. These ARE ways the Foundry is used, too.

    Or, at least, was used...

    I know the Authors of stories don't like the Foundry pushing their headlined stories out of the spotlight. BUT these are things that ADD TO the use of the Foundry. Not sure how much of a "blip on the radar" it would make on the Cryptic metrics numbers if those types of projects were to come back.

    But then....that SEARCH is going to have to be improved. It is a jumbled mess in there. I don't know why story missions and testing missions can't be separated and made easier to find.

    Organizing has never been Cryptic's forte....I mean, look at the mess in the C-store. They are not even helping themselves!!
    "Spend your life doing strange things with weird people." -- UNK

    "The acquisition of wealth is no longer the driving force in our lives. We work to better ourselves and the rest of humanity." -- Captian Jean-Luc Picard

    “Tell me and I forget. Teach me and I remember. Involve me and I learn.” -- Benjamin Franklin
  • captainhunter1captainhunter1 Member Posts: 1,386 Arc User
    I realise that there are lists of them on various websites, including this one. But why should I be forced to use resources such as that, when I can't see why a COMPLETE list of them should not be available in-game when I select "Browse All"? "All" being the key word here.
    where2r1 wrote: »
    But then....that SEARCH is going to have to be improved. It is a jumbled mess in there. I don't know why story missions and testing missions can't be separated and made easier to find.

    Here's what we have been proposing for YEARS, but since the Foundry gets zero PAID development time, even a very simple, and very much needed, interface change like this (see signature for details - it's super easy!) can't get done. :( (Note the '50 missions' buttons at the bottom of the second image for FULL access to the entire library of 90,000+ missions)

    35973352396_aa76faedb0_c.jpg

    35973359666_c05377a663_c.jpg
  • mattjohnsonvamattjohnsonva Member Posts: 4,850 Arc User
    Multiple patches since this thread began and not a single fix anywhere within the foundry system announced.

    @ambassadorkael#6946 , have Cryptic now officially abandoned the foundry?

    It would be nice to have a response so that people like me don't waste our lives on a dead system.
  • altran3301altran3301 Member Posts: 141 Arc User
    edited September 2018
    It won't get far until the map transfer works in preview. Currently forced to publish to properly test. By the time it's done, it already has numerous idiot reviews because they didn't read the description stating that is was a work in progress.
    So yeah... foundry is basically dead.
    tnl3Zwx.png
  • duncanidaho11duncanidaho11 Member Posts: 7,320 Arc User
    edited September 2018
    altran3301 wrote: »
    It won't get far until the map transfer works in preview. Currently forced to publish to properly test. By the time it's done, it already has numerous idiot reviews because they didn't read the description stating that is was a work in progress.

    I test maps individually from the editor, works fine for everything except getting a sense of flow/pacing (which just takes some extra outlining and consideration while building.) As for spam reviews during testing: you can effectively clear that by going to your archived missions (bottom of the project selection menu) and importing the mission in question. Delete the original, publish the copy under its name, you have a clean review slate.


    To the general "Foundry abandoned" thing, Cryptic is aware of the problems but scheduling dev time has been especially difficult during this run up to AOD right on the heels of ViL. It's been a very busy time for the game. That said, getting dev time isn't as simple as asking for it from Kael. A few people doing that on the forum doesn't carry all that much weight higher up and the matron saint of Foundrying [ZeroniusRex] was moved to another game. Kael's our primary contact for Foundry but he has to work from the position of CM, not EP. The most recent community event (to me) is our best chance on the table to make the Foundry a higher profile item to the dev team. The more support it and the Foundry at large gets now from the community the better the chances are of the Foundry getting some attention (at least in the most critical areas, IMO missions randomly failing to qualify for top 3 and rewards.)

    If folks care, passively waiting for a more convenient time to work won't cut it. What'll help most is staying active and interacting with the community. Highlight your work, engage with community events, give mission feedback (there's a forum asking for it), encourage new authors, and work through the incidentals however they come. Otherwise putting off bug fixes gets easier and easier to justify.

    That's the call to arms. Deal with the problems as best you can and remind Cryptic (and STO's new EP) why they should invest in the Foundry. Foundry Roundtable will be sure to post any sharable dev news as soon as we're aware of it.
    Post edited by duncanidaho11 on
    Bipedal mammal and senior Foundry author.
    RDrirz1.png

    New mission: Shattered Relic [SSF3-2 | ICO]
    For the latest Tardigrades and Foundry news: @Gorgonops_SSF
    Looking for something new to play? The interactive Foundry Mission Database has you covered.
  • rickywong#3975 rickywong Member Posts: 3 Arc User
    I realise that there are lists of them on various websites, including this one. But why should I be forced to use resources such as that, when I can't see why a COMPLETE list of them should not be available in-game when I select "Browse All"? "All" being the key word here.
    where2r1 wrote: »
    But then....that SEARCH is going to have to be improved. It is a jumbled mess in there. I don't know why story missions and testing missions can't be separated and made easier to find.

    Here's what we have been proposing for YEARS, but since the Foundry gets zero PAID development time, even a very simple, and very much needed, interface change like this (see signature for details - it's super easy!) can't get done. :( (Note the '50 missions' buttons at the bottom of the second image for FULL access to the entire library of 90,000+ missions)

    35973352396_aa76faedb0_c.jpg

    35973359666_c05377a663_c.jpg

    I absolutely love these. What's sad is that something like these *should* be painfully obvious and fairly simple to do.
    I just don't understand why something like this hasn't and/or couldn't be implemented.
    Also, just to be clear, when talking about "garbage farming" missions, I was merely talking from my own subjective opinion. Apologies for not being more clear on that.
  • mattjohnsonvamattjohnsonva Member Posts: 4,850 Arc User
    altran3301 wrote: »
    It won't get far until the map transfer works in preview. Currently forced to publish to properly test. By the time it's done, it already has numerous idiot reviews because they didn't read the description stating that is was a work in progress.

    I test maps individually from the editor, works fine for everything except getting a sense of flow/pacing (which just takes some extra outlining and consideration while building.) As for spam reviews during testing: you can effectively clear that by going to your archived missions (bottom of the project selection menu) and importing the mission in question. Delete the original, publish the copy under its name, you have a clean review slate.


    To the general "Foundry abandoned" thing, Cryptic is aware of the problems but scheduling dev time has been especially difficult during this run up to AOD right on the heels of ViL. It's been a very busy time for the game. That said, getting dev time isn't as simple as asking for it from Kael. A few people doing that on the forum doesn't carry all that much weight higher up and the matron saint of Foundrying [ZeroniusRex] was moved to another game. Kael's our primary contact for Foundry but he has to work from the position of CM, not EP. The most recent community event (to me) is our best chance on the table to make the Foundry a higher profile item to the dev team. The more support it and the Foundry at large gets now from the community the better the chances are of the Foundry getting some attention (at least in the most critical areas, IMO missions randomly failing to qualify for top 3 and rewards.)

    If folks care, passively waiting for a more convenient time to work won't cut it. What'll help most is staying active and interacting with the community. Highlight your work, engage with community events, give mission feedback (there's a forum asking for it), encourage new authors, and work through the incidentals however they come. Otherwise putting off bug fixes gets easier and easier to justify.

    That's the call to arms. Deal with the problems as best you can and remind Cryptic (and STO's new EP) why they should invest in the Foundry. Foundry Roundtable will be sure to post any sharable dev news as soon as we're aware of it.

    Couldn't agree more with all you've said there, SRS are even live streaming our events, which are mostly foundry, every evening now. Still, the silence from anyone at Cryptic is deafening. I'm writing Season 2 of our ST:SRS series which will begin in January, it's going fine, I can get the foundry to work ok for almost everything, the preview map is no biggie, what bugs me the most is the fact that many of the missions don't reward any more, and when not rewarding that also means they are not being highlighted at the systems they pertain to. So that's a double whammy, first some folks won't play it because it doesn't reward and those who would play it won't see it because it doesn't show up. For me this is the most critical bug, just about everything else can be worked around.

    The lack of new maps is very sad too, over the last couple of years we've had some wonderful maps added to the game but not the foundry. I just can't understand how Cryptic fail to see that the foundry is an absolute goldmine for the end game and player retention. Apparently the NW foundry is far better serviced than ours, parity would be nice at least.
  • duncanidaho11duncanidaho11 Member Posts: 7,320 Arc User
    edited September 2018
    Couldn't agree more with all you've said there, SRS are even live streaming our events, which are mostly foundry, every evening now.

    Twitch link? I can ask Greendragoon about autohosting Roundtable to your events (compatible audience ;) )
    The lack of new maps is very sad too, over the last couple of years we've had some wonderful maps added to the game but not the foundry.

    I think Zero may have been close to getting us a new batch of maps (mostly from AoY) but was moved to the MtG team before completion. That's probably something @ambassadorkael#6946 can look into (find out what was furthest along or if any maps were ready to go as a starting point for learning that part of the system. Also, he might ask the dev team what happened to gamma quadrant sector foundry doors? That was something they sounded pretty sure of on Ten Forward, prior to ViL.)


    One more thing for folks at large, Kael recently put out the call for Foundry spotlight recommendations (any great mission, even if the author hasn't submitted it themselves.) The original call was made on twitter but if anyone here has any suggestion I'm sure he wouldn't mind a concise DM. Alternatively you can message Foundry Roundtable (me/Greendragoon/Drogyn) and we'll pass the word along via reddit/twitter.
    https://www.reddit.com/r/stofoundry/comments/9epfs1/suggest_a_foundry_mission_to_be_spotlit_to/
    Bipedal mammal and senior Foundry author.
    RDrirz1.png

    New mission: Shattered Relic [SSF3-2 | ICO]
    For the latest Tardigrades and Foundry news: @Gorgonops_SSF
    Looking for something new to play? The interactive Foundry Mission Database has you covered.
  • bluedarkybluedarky Member Posts: 548 Arc User
    There is a way to get Cryptic to devote resources to the Foundry with zero monetary cost to any player, if everyone reading this plays one or works on a foundry mission every time they log onto the game.

    Cryptic divides resources based on one of two things, how much money a thing brings in directly, and what people do when they log into the game, if we can show there is a demand for foundry content, they can justify putting development time into the foundry.
  • mattjohnsonvamattjohnsonva Member Posts: 4,850 Arc User
    Couldn't agree more with all you've said there, SRS are even live streaming our events, which are mostly foundry, every evening now.

    Twitch link? I can ask Greendragoon about autohosting Roundtable to your events (compatible audience ;) )



    Cheers

  • sirsitsalotsirsitsalot Member Posts: 1,553 Arc User
    ...
    bluedarky wrote: »
    There is a way to get Cryptic to devote resources to the Foundry with zero monetary cost to any player, if everyone reading this plays one or works on a foundry mission every time they log onto the game.

    Cryptic divides resources based on one of two things, how much money a thing brings in directly, and what people do when they log into the game, if we can show there is a demand for foundry content, they can justify putting development time into the foundry.

    Not if the way they originally handled the Klingon faction is any indication.

    They hardly ever released anything new for KDF because too few people were playing KDF because there was hardly ever anything released for it. Cryptic themselves created the absence on interest with their neglect, and used the lack of interest as an excuse for continued neglect...

    From my chair, the same mentality applies to the foundry. They don't bother to address the issues surrounding it, people don't bother playing or using it, and they use that as an excuse for not addressing the issues surrounding it.

    It was a directive from PWE that resulted in parity between the UFP and KDF in terms of being able to level from min to max. But I don't think there will be any directives from PWE about addressing the Foundry issues. No money in it.

    I have no snarky remarks to make, at this time...
  • duncanidaho11duncanidaho11 Member Posts: 7,320 Arc User
    ...
    bluedarky wrote: »
    There is a way to get Cryptic to devote resources to the Foundry with zero monetary cost to any player, if everyone reading this plays one or works on a foundry mission every time they log onto the game.

    Cryptic divides resources based on one of two things, how much money a thing brings in directly, and what people do when they log into the game, if we can show there is a demand for foundry content, they can justify putting development time into the foundry.

    Not if the way they originally handled the Klingon faction is any indication.

    Which isn't how they handle it today. The complaint of the day on the forums is that the ROM's aren't getting enough attention because what could have been one of "their" ships was allocated to the KDF accompaniment of the New Orleans. The KDF has been much-more-frequently-than-not included in ship packs since the introduction of T6 and they've received more QoL uniform tweaks than any of the other factions. TOS and D'tahg were also released for free and the Qo'Nos shipyard got a good set of tweaks to improve its usability. The full map hasn't received an overhaul but I think the First City (while having a less convenient layout than ESD) is an environment which still holds up (and offers many more ins and outs to explore.) Revamping their intro arc is still something Cryptic wants to do too.

    So, just as well the KDF faction can serve as a model for what minor investment and consistent support can amount to. More than ever, it's a compelling faction choice and it didn't take an expansive overhaul for it to get to that point. Just hit some critical areas and show consistent support.
    Bipedal mammal and senior Foundry author.
    RDrirz1.png

    New mission: Shattered Relic [SSF3-2 | ICO]
    For the latest Tardigrades and Foundry news: @Gorgonops_SSF
    Looking for something new to play? The interactive Foundry Mission Database has you covered.
  • sirsitsalotsirsitsalot Member Posts: 1,553 Arc User
    ...
    bluedarky wrote: »
    There is a way to get Cryptic to devote resources to the Foundry with zero monetary cost to any player, if everyone reading this plays one or works on a foundry mission every time they log onto the game.

    Cryptic divides resources based on one of two things, how much money a thing brings in directly, and what people do when they log into the game, if we can show there is a demand for foundry content, they can justify putting development time into the foundry.

    Not if the way they originally handled the Klingon faction is any indication.

    Which isn't how they handle it today. The complaint of the day on the forums is that the ROM's aren't getting enough attention because what could have been one of "their" ships was allocated to the KDF accompaniment of the New Orleans. The KDF has been much-more-frequently-than-not included in ship packs since the introduction of T6 and they've received more QoL uniform tweaks than any of the other factions. TOS and D'tahg were also released for free and the Qo'Nos shipyard got a good set of tweaks to improve its usability. The full map hasn't received an overhaul but I think the First City (while having a less convenient layout than ESD) is an environment which still holds up (and offers many more ins and outs to explore.) Revamping their intro arc is still something Cryptic wants to do too.

    So, just as well the KDF faction can serve as a model for what minor investment and consistent support can amount to. More than ever, it's a compelling faction choice and it didn't take an expansive overhaul for it to get to that point. Just hit some critical areas and show consistent support.

    I am just saying that Cryptic has a long history of neglecting [insert relevant item], causing people to not bother with it, and then justifying continued neglect by saying there isn't enough interest. That's how they treated the KDF for the LONGEST TIME. That's how they are treating the foundry now. They STOPPED treating the KDF that way when PWE took over and directed them to make it possible to fully level a KDF character on KDF missions. But there was C-store money to be made with the KDF. There is no foundry-specific monetization that would incentivize PWE to direct Cryptic to actually address the issues.

    Unless PWE stands to make money off of it, we should not expect anything to be done about it. Oh sure... we can play foundry missions and make them, as problematic as it is. But the money is where the priorities are at, and Foundry doesn't make them a dime. No dime... No time...

    I DARE them to prove me wrong. But mark my words, when they do address the issue and make Foundry something that does not give people a headache, it will come with some sort of monetization model that did not exist before. Because they will have to have profit to justify the man hour allocation.
    I have no snarky remarks to make, at this time...
  • pendra37#5088 pendra37 Member Posts: 10 Arc User
    edited September 2018
    Interesting OP that devolved into 110% pointless flaming, included some pipe dream wish lists and bug list. Few actual comments touched on the OP.

    I remember those times. I like to think that some of my work actually contributed to the current looks of the game. I got rid of the horrible sector space and got real space instead. Replaced the blue on blue console textures with the "clown puke" LCARS. Removed all the barn doors. And, with some help, replaced the uniformly blue ability icons with Red/Green/Blue icons to reflect on the Tac/Eng/Sci nature of the ability. Oh and the shooter mode that is almost as good as the FPS mod :D.

    Then came the Foundry onto Tribble. The first enterable building. The generic notion that we should consider the objects as Lego blocks instead of what they literally are. This spawned the idea of the "castle in the sky" (Also, the castle deep below...). I was the very vocal about the need to make the Y position switchable between Absolute (relative to 0) and Relative (to actual map position) to be able to build complexes more efficiently. Also described how the mission export worked. These brought the ability to share "prefabs" with the community and make collaboration easier. Unfortunately, the importer app was kinda shunned upon, so that sharing idea went nowhere. We even got the empty map I asked for, but that was somewhat redundant by the time it was added. I was also among the first ones to advocate for the "list/rotate 3 UGC missions for star systems"
    Finally, the triggers were added which made the foundry waaaay more powerful. With that, we could make nuanced story telling and much more interactive (dare I say life like) environments. Even the holy grail of missions, branched stories and player action based endings became a possibility. I perfected that method to an art. Switching landscapes, a debriefing that reflected the player's choices throughout the mission, even had a basic form of mission specific inventory. I recreated the first two missions of Star Trek 25th Anniversary game ( ). Yes, the Foundry can do that, no problem.

    And now on to the basic issue with STO. It has a gaping schism at its core. It wants to be Star Online and Star Trek Online at the same time. Gather generic scifi fans and hardcore Star Trek people. Unfortunately, you can't make both groups happy.
    - The Rank system is flawed from the beginning. Everybody is a Captain at every rank. Maybe a Fleet Captain at best, but still only one ship. 1 for Star Online and -1 for Star Trek Online
    - The "economy" of things is complete bonkers. Makes sense in Star Online, but dumb as heck for a Star Trek fan.
    - The space combat system is uninspiring button smash and the ground segment is a boring chore. That got a little better over the years but not that much. Should work for Star Online people, but for a Star Trek fan, with SFC, Elite Force and Armada background, it is just weak.
    - The game was fairly weak on story content because:
    - The biggest initial selling point was the thousands of procedural explore missions. Unfortunately, that was DOA. They were just mind numbingly dumb. Scan 5 things, kill 5 mobs and gather things from the 5th Borg dynasty. However, that was designed as an exploration endgame. That didn't work out for anybody. Even the Star Online people rejected it.
    - The space STFs were a bit better but not much.
    - To remedy the shortcoming new Systems were put in place and new story missions surfaced slowly.

    That was the point where UGC seemed like the way to go further. The Star Online people will be OK with the Systems and STFs. Meanwhile hardcore ST fans will be serviced with the UGC content. They tend to like fanfic anyway. Well, the fanfic people jumped on the opportunity and created the stories. However it never reached the level of integration with the base game as needed. For a good whole, it was behind a tab which some people didn't even know about. Minimal or no reward was added. All you got was drops and XP for murdering things (which got exploited in about 10 mins). There were also the odd spotlight missions. I recall that was when things finally broke down and the lockbox economy started. After that, the UGC was not a priority anymore. The game decided to go Star Online and rely on gambling. The hard Trek and lore aspects were thrown out of the window. Every possible thing was monetized and nickel and dimed. Foundry was deemed non monetizable and just left to rot.

    IMHO that was the most narrow sighted stance ever. I understand that, from legal point of view, monetizing UGC is a big can of worms. However, I'm sure there is a legal way to buy a mission from an UGC author and integrate it into The mission tree or A mission tree. With that, STO could be the game with the most content ever created in gaming history. Where you could level toon after toon with no two leveling the same. UGC is rejected by many people because for every good mission, you may get 5 a drawn out borefests, 5 dumb and/or childish fanfics and 5 broken messes. With the pre-tested and bought UGC content getting added to the core game proper, the players would not ignore that content like before which may draw people in for good. With people actually be able to use the stuff in meaningful manner, more stuff could be sold which would generate more income. Especially if you gear some mission branches toward certain monetized aspects. Hidden extras, eastern eggs, spec reward if you play certain missions with certain paywalled gear/ship/uniform whatnot.
    UGC is used in the most uninspired way possible because it doesn't generate a revenue. Lockbox ship skins do. True. However think further. Like WHY you want to get that lockbox shipskin? To use it maybe? Well used UGC would provide plenty of use for the new shiny.
    Post edited by pendra37#5088 on
  • azrael605azrael605 Member Posts: 8,647 Arc User
    Monetizing UGC, such as Bethesda's Creation Club, is what I was talking about. I honestly think it's about the only way it's going to work in STO, selling assetts to authors won't do the trick, they are too small a group, selling non-mission creations to the general playerbase though, that could actually do some good. Notice I said non-mission creations. I would like to see the foundry authors get a lot more tools to work with, costumes, playable species, ships, weapons, everything. Missions though, in STO we don't pay for missions, and that should not change. I know there would be mountains of legal stuff to figure out, not to mention the technical aspects, which I have no clue whatsoever about, but maybe its something for consideration.
    #TASinSTO
    #IStandWithCBS
    Bring on Discovery season 2 and Age of Discovery.
  • pendra37#5088 pendra37 Member Posts: 10 Arc User
    I didn't mean the player would buy the mission. PWE would buy the mission from the author and integrate it into the game proper. Pay a couple hundred USD, some Zen etc. This transfers the work from the original author to PWE. The original author will still retain the writer/designer credit of course but no right to claim royalty or anything from the usage of the mission in official game manners. He would practically allow PWE to make a strikingly similar official mission. Nothing more, nothing less.
    The mission itself does not generate any revenue the other stuff, that would make it more enjoyable does. Like age/place/race etc appropriate gear and costumes.
    To be honest, I think many die hard ST fanfic writers would even pay for the privilege to have their stuff appear in some official ST product.
  • duncanidaho11duncanidaho11 Member Posts: 7,320 Arc User
    edited September 2018
    I didn't mean the player would buy the mission. PWE would buy the mission from the author and integrate it into the game proper. Pay a couple hundred USD, some Zen etc. This transfers the work from the original author to PWE. The original author will still retain the writer/designer credit of course but no right to claim royalty or anything from the usage of the mission in official game manners. He would practically allow PWE to make a strikingly similar official mission. Nothing more, nothing less.
    The mission itself does not generate any revenue the other stuff, that would make it more enjoyable does. Like age/place/race etc appropriate gear and costumes.
    To be honest, I think many die hard ST fanfic writers would even pay for the privilege to have their stuff appear in some official ST product.

    I don't think that's a realistic possibility.

    1. The money isn't available to pay STO developers to support the Foundry beyond fixing catastrophic issues. If there's the cash on hand to pay Foundry authors (highly unlikely, but for argument's sake let's go with this) then as a Foundry author I'd request that be used to budget dev time for the most critical bugs affecting the community. None of us need to be paid for our hobby; we do it because we love telling stories in the STO universe, interacting with the community, and interacting with other authors (even the Foundry roundtable podcast is completely unmonetized across all platforms.) Incentivizing us isn't at all an issue.

    2. Foundry missions and main game missions are not cross-compatible. They cannot be integrated into the game proper without a complete rebuild equivalent to Cryptic making a full mission on their own. If Cryptic was to do that, then (from past statements) they'd probably rather integrate content of significance to the STO community (ie. especially beloved spotlights for the sake of exporting them to the console audience) than contracting out for writing and development (requiring use of their in-house toolset...) Individual Foundry missions of note can be given an incredible amount of recognition through the spotlight system (and I'm speaking there as the author of Apex [AEI]) and, from my point of view, I don't think that the transition to mainline story mission would either be appropriate (it doesn't fit into the STO arc) or an honor that's at all necessary. To me, it just seems like unnecessary complication, pulling resources from other areas that would better support the Foundry. Ie. adding assets for everyone in the community, revamping the search UI for players, and fixing bugs.

    3. I don't think ST fanfic writers would be necessarily well suited to making Foundry missions. Writing a short story or novel requires a different set of skills than writing in a video game. Sure, some of the principles are the same but the medium is very different.
    Post edited by duncanidaho11 on
    Bipedal mammal and senior Foundry author.
    RDrirz1.png

    New mission: Shattered Relic [SSF3-2 | ICO]
    For the latest Tardigrades and Foundry news: @Gorgonops_SSF
    Looking for something new to play? The interactive Foundry Mission Database has you covered.
  • mattjohnsonvamattjohnsonva Member Posts: 4,850 Arc User
    Folks are getting carried away here. All that needs doing is the following:

    Fix bugs

    1. Reward bug
    2. Mission marker bug
    3. alt+tab to edit bug

    Add maps that are ingame but not in the foundry

    That's it, do those few simple things and we've got a foundry that would be a pleasure to work with and a pleasure to play.
  • ashstorm1ashstorm1 Member Posts: 600 Arc User
    Folks are getting carried away here. All that needs doing is the following:

    Fix bugs

    1. Reward bug
    2. Mission marker bug
    3. alt+tab to edit bug

    Add maps that are ingame but not in the foundry

    That's it, do those few simple things and we've got a foundry that would be a pleasure to work with and a pleasure to play.

    +1 to that
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