The Defiant in that episode, and indeed within 2 minutes of that scene, was even more capable of tearing the Lakota to absolute smithereens in just one more shot. Despite passing within what looks to be only a couple hundred meters at most, the Defiant was never actually witnessed firing torpedos. In fact, Kira specifically stated "They [The Lakota] are in even worse shape. One good hit will probably finish them." followed by O'Brien noting that it would undoubtedly kill everyone on the ship. And of course, there is the fact that the Lakota hadn't considered firing any quantum torpedos before that point, which still clearly leaves a large debate as to whether or not torpedos are even effective against shielded targets at all. Speaking completely logically, it would only make sense that energy weapons are still drastically better than kinetic weapons. After all, think of how often an officer has said that a Klingon ship has decloaked and is charging disruptors, rather than launching torpedos; it happens so often that it would almost seem like there was some sort of correlation between the duration of a fight and the proper time to use torpedo weaponry.
At best, this scene is only just barely capable of arguing that torpedos are as effective as phasers, much like how the energy torpedos are now. At worst, the scene could be easily construed as proof of just how accurately STO regards kinetic weaponry.
All this lends to my point earlier. Energy weapons were being used to disable each of the ships, and towards the end of the battle, neither ship had much in the way of shields left and 'someone neglected to mention that the Defiant had Ablative armour', which was why the Defiant was still in the battle. One torpedo would have finished either ship at that stage, yet they were still only using Phasers.
One only needs to watch Generations to see how ineffective torps were against a fully shielded 20 year old BoP, fired from a top of the line Galaxy class!
Normal torpedoes are supposed to fired against bare hulls, not shields. There is canon lore on Energy based torps such as the Plasma Torps of V'Ger and the Romulans, which mean they are not just kinetic in nature and have greater effect on shields, and this is addressed in game by the damage type, but still, as I said Torps disperse this energy, whether kinetic or not over a larger area than a focused energy beam or bolt. People just don't understand that shields do not act the same as armour in terms of physics.
"You don't want to patrol!? You don't want to escort!? You don't want to defend the Federation's Starbases!? Then why are you flying my Starships!? If you were a Klingon you'd be killed on the spot, but lucky for you.....you WERE in Starfleet. Let's see how New Zealand Penal Colony suits you." Adm A. Necheyev.
I personally still think it would be nice to at least test on the test server the ideas of having either that the damage reduction applied by a kinetic torpedo hitting a shield be dynamic an scale up or down with the remaining hp of the shield facing hit, with maybe a base reduction in place such as 10-15% if the shield facing is still active. Or a rewrite to how the three weapon types work to have beams being the opposite of torpedoes with them dealing far less damage to hulls compared to shields, while cannons would stay as being largely equally useful against hull or shields, and torpedoes would be weak against shields like how they are now.
There should be some way to promote the use of kinetic torpedoes and combining those with energy weapons. Some benefit that only kinetics get, and energy torpedoes don't without those benefits being tied to sacrificing console slots.
Like what? Make torps so good that they reduce the duration of CCA below zero?
Thanks for the reminder because each time I log into this place there seems to be either somebody around who complains about that peeps only play ISA and CCA or that these maps have too short duration not giving everybody a chance to participate satisfactory. Take it or not kinetics play a central part in that by now.
With kinetic builds in the 150k+ DPS reach in ISA and with 300k+ (easily) in CCA it is very hard for me here do distinguish the sound discussion the OP intends from the scrub mentality of some of the players who have the habit to criticize every game mechanic which does not suite their playstyle.
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There should be some way to promote the use of kinetic torpedoes and combining those with energy weapons. Some benefit that only kinetics get, and energy torpedoes don't without those benefits being tied to sacrificing console slots.
Like what? Make torps so good that they reduce the duration of CCA below zero?
Thanks for the reminder because each time I log into this place there seems to be either somebody around who complains about that peeps only play ISA and CCA or that these maps have too short duration not giving everybody a chance to participate satisfactory. Take it or not kinetics play a central part in that by now.
With kinetic builds in the 150k+ DPS reach in ISA and with 300k+ (easily) in CCA it is very hard for me here do distinguish the sound discussion the OP intends from the scrub mentality of some of the players who have the habit to criticize every game mechanic which does not suite their playstyle.
Those complaints are legitimate if they are about the strange scaling of rewards though.
Anyway, to get back to my earlier point: some boosts for kinetics only (that doesn't require sacrificing a regular console slot) would still be helpful imo to allow kinetics some of the extra benefits that energy torpedoes have.
If that means that CCA becomes even more of a joke, that's a problem but that problem needs solving anyway. What I was trying to say by pointing out that CCA isn't the only thing in the game, is that we shouldn't abandon ideas to give kinetics more benefits just because it might be problematic for one specific mission (which itself can be considered an anomaly).
As for your earlier question or 'like what?' : I had hoped that someone would come up with something. But unfortunately most of the discussion is about canon now and how unfair or unrepesentative the game is w.r.t. kinetics torpedoes compared to the shows and thus the reworking of damage dealt vs. shields and hulls.
While possibly a good way to solve that problem, it would be too disruptive imo so simpler solutions may be needed. I'm thinking along the lines of special kinetic console slots - to give just an example of a less disruptive change; one that doesn't take the entire game to a brain surgeon for removal of the parietal lobe because there is a minor feeling of pain to be treated in its left pinky finger.
[4:46] [Combat {self}] Your Haymaker deals 23337 (9049) Physical Damage(Critical) to Spawnmother
Guys I'm only going to say this once, keep the discussion civil and on the point at hand. This has been a mostly civil thread so far and I would hate to see that chance for discussion ruined by the topic being derailed. We all have our thoughts on the topic and folks are free to express those thoughts as long as things are kept civil. If folks can't do that then I will be forced to break out the mod sword or the thread lock. This is the general warning, next time will resort in the mod sword or padlock.
"Someone once told me that time was a predator that stalked us all our lives. I rather believe that time is a companion who goes with us on the journey and reminds us to cherish every moment, because it will never come again." - Jean Luc Picard in Star Trek Generations
One last thing, I feel energy based torpedoes are a band-aid to the torpedo problem in STO. Energy torpedoes are nice but they shouldn't outright negate the need for standard torpedoes because of game mechanics and requiring specific builds to make regular torpedoes effective. Energy based torpedoes are becoming easier to obtain which isn't a bad thing but if regular torpedoes aren't made more easily accessible for standard fresh out of the space dock use, energy based ones will become a must have over regular torpedoes unless you know how and build specific to regular torpedoes.
Perhaps what is needed is to take everything right back to the beginning and start over with some balanced weaponry.
I mostly agree with this but there are some issues with it as well.
First and foremost properly balancing something is not their forte. We've seen it counltess times over the years by now, something is either OP as f*ck or so miserable that it's practically a waste of space. There are some exceptions but those are few and far between.
Also the second big point is the wiping the slate part. In an eight year old MMO doing something drastic like that will potenitally alienate a big portion of the playerbase. It can work out but it can also horrendously fail and lead to a mass exodus, especially considering all the previous "balancing" attempts.
It could maybe be the best approach to ensure the game's long term health but that high risk of a collossal fail is probably the reason why something like that will never happen.
I'm not so sure. maybe PVP would whine because they whine over every change, but I think the ones woul would LOVE it are the UberDeeps. it would motivate them to get back to the top. Casual players would probably like it just because it does bring balance.
Personally the only real change I would like to see are changes to torpedo damage. right now you fire a torpedo at a ship . it hits for 1000, and 100 amout is applied to hull as bleedthrough damage, correct? (Not addressing any special mods or transphasic) so what happens to the other 900? absorbed by the shields. now, what SHOULD happen in my opinion, is 1% bleedthrough with shields at 100%,increasing percent by percent as shields are reduced, and a percentage applied to shield reduction.
Personally the only real change I would like to see are changes to torpedo damage. right now you fire a torpedo at a ship . it hits for 1000, and 100 amout is applied to hull as bleedthrough damage, correct? (Not addressing any special mods or transphasic) so what happens to the other 900? absorbed by the shields. now, what SHOULD happen in my opinion, is 1% bleedthrough with shields at 100%,increasing percent by percent as shields are reduced, and a percentage applied to shield reduction.
I think if someone like @crypticspartan#0627 were to explain the mechaincs to us as he has in the past there is some degree of damage being transfered to the shield when hit with a torp. So even though it may seem like 75% of the damage is wasted some of it IS damaging that shield and if the facing is low enough will overwhelm it.
However i do agree that the mechanics of how a shield behaves should deplete as the HP's of a facing drop.
I've got a few ideas i just spit-balled to add to the discussion on how to allow such a mechanic change:
Better explain how the shield resistance to kinetic weapons is affected as the HP's drop. Does that 1% facing have almost zero resistance, but a full 100% facing have the usual 75% resistance. Let people better understand the exact mechanics in play.
Increase bleedthrough as HP's reduce.
Allow torpedo (and mine!) critical hits to bypass (or have a chance to) shields completely.
Allow critical hits mentioned above a chance to knock a facing off fully, even when at full health (some sort of shield overload/collapse)
Give us a console that can allow our kinetic weapons to gain shield penetration, and explain it away as some sort of shield frequency scanner/adjuster for the torps.
Allow all torps a chance to disable systems on a proc chance as an innate mechanic (or on a crit hit?). After all the shields might be up but you just got hit by a nuke, some systems might need rebooting after the ship is all shook up.
Change HY and destructible torps to become invincible once they go past a point of no return. Something like you can shoot down the torp when it's on route but once it dives in for the target it's going too fast and close to safely shoot down.
As stated earlier, please lets keep this discussion civil. Argue against the points, not against each other.
@peterconnorfirst I see your points here, but there are several factors that have to be considered.
First off, the video you linked for CCA requires dedicated torpedo builds, cloaked ships, significant buffs, and highly coordinated player attacks, and then record the "DPS" of the last attack to get the hyped result. It's a fun thing to do, don't get me wrong (same with 2-manning and soloing CCA), but to say that this is the norm for torps is not a reflection of what happens everywhere else in the game.
Add to that the changes that limit torpedo throughput and the removal of a set bonus affecting torpedoes (Nukara 2pc), the fix to OKS (but not addressing the other issues that OKS was originally masking), preventing some torps from having their effects utilized across all torps fired (Quantum Phase, Neutronic), and one wonders how a few players can hit 150K+ with torps (Answer: knowledge of torp mechanics + piloting + new traits + DOMINO console).
IMHO, one very important thing the player community doesn't have is a Dev vision as to how they see builds performing. Maybe that's intentional, or that this hasn't been on the radar for them, but it has been a subject both directly and indirectly addressed in the DPS channels AND by new players in STO. For fans of the franchise, the new player vision is as follows:
Energy weapons + 1-2 torps (hybrid builds) >>> all energy weapons > all torp >> torp/mine builds
The expected delta in performance between the all energy and all torp isn't huge. What they see in reality is:
All Energy >>> Energy + 1 torp (typically Naussican energy) >>>>> torp +1-3 energy weapons >>> all torp >>>>> torp/mine builds
If we control for piloting and variance in DPS runs, in almost all but one map (as of 2018-05-09), all energy builds are vastly superior to all builds due to synergies in weapon and gear set bonuses (individual and team), traits (number, individual performance, and synergies between), enemy characteristics (higher shield hp, lower hull resistances [HSE looking at you], spacing and pathing of mobs, etc), and some out-dated mechanics that can be fixed (flight speed, destructible torps, misfire frequency, elimination of chambering TS w/ HY OR limiting torpedoes to fire one at a time + torpedo gcd, etc).
Also, some changes that were made to control the power and frequency of use of some weapons (aka Tricobalt ctorp and mine individual and shared cd) were needed several seasons ago, but with the current powercreep levels, and the future mob levels coming shortly, a revisit of those restrictions (either reducing or eliminating them) is warranted.
Skill Tree options that address torpedoes are either laughable at best (Temporal Tree), were meant for hybrid builds (Command Tree), or are universal, but under certain circumstances (Intel) [Not enough testing for Constable has been conducted at this time]. It's up to the players to come up with creative ways (sometimes unintended, as stated by the Dev Team) to make something work with torps. That's the current state of the game.
The only clear message concerning torpedo mechanics came from Borticus on a Priority One (http://priorityonepodcast.com/po315/ time stamp 1:03:21), and I will let his words speak for itself (if there's an updated message from the Dev Team, please link it to me). While I am one of those people who are 'adamant' of torpedo performance being improved, I do not want it to be the only choice for peak performance across all build combinations. That's no better than all energy weapons being the pinnacle of performance. I'd like to see hybrid (canon) builds be the pinnacle of DPS performance, with other types of builds be lesser in peak performance, but superior in specific circumstances. It literally comes down to Dev development, and players figuring out ways to make them work (intended or not).
Addressing the mechanics between torps and shields (this is baseline, and not factoring in +/- resistances/hardness/resilience/penetration):
Shields negate 75% of torpedo damage right off the bat. Assuming no bleedthrough, a 1000 damage torpedo will lose 750 damage right off the top, and the other 250 damage is then done to the shields.
If a shield facing has 1 hit point left, a 1000 damage torpedo will lose 3 damage, 1 damage done to the shield, and the 996 damage left will go to the hull.
In the past, not all torps were following this model (it was worse for some torpedoes), hence part of the confusion. As of the Great Balance Pass of 2017, *all* torpedoes should follow what is above the dotted line.
The 40% shield penetration bonus works by reducing the innate penetration resistance of shields. The penetration resistance is 90% for most shields, and it will be reduced to 54% against transphasic weapons, which is equivalent to a bleedthrough of 46%. For resilient shields, the bleedthrough will be 43%.
Perhaps what is needed is to take everything right back to the beginning and start over with some balanced weaponry.
I mostly agree with this but there are some issues with it as well.
First and foremost properly balancing something is not their forte. We've seen it counltess times over the years by now, something is either OP as f*ck or so miserable that it's practically a waste of space. There are some exceptions but those are few and far between.
Also the second big point is the wiping the slate part. In an eight year old MMO doing something drastic like that will potenitally alienate a big portion of the playerbase. It can work out but it can also horrendously fail and lead to a mass exodus, especially considering all the previous "balancing" attempts.
It could maybe be the best approach to ensure the game's long term health but that high risk of a collossal fail is probably the reason why something like that will never happen.
I'm not so sure. maybe PVP would whine because they whine over every change, but I think the ones woul would LOVE it are the UberDeeps. it would motivate them to get back to the top. Casual players would probably like it just because it does bring balance.
Personally the only real change I would like to see are changes to torpedo damage. right now you fire a torpedo at a ship . it hits for 1000, and 100 amout is applied to hull as bleedthrough damage, correct? (Not addressing any special mods or transphasic) so what happens to the other 900? absorbed by the shields. now, what SHOULD happen in my opinion, is 1% bleedthrough with shields at 100%,increasing percent by percent as shields are reduced, and a percentage applied to shield reduction.
How are you guys still using PVP as an Evil Bogeyman that holds your game performance back? PVP has died in STO years ago. PVP no longer has a voice in STO when it was gutted with Delta Rising.
Show me examples like here, where you see PVP complaints holding this game back. There isn't really anymore. The concern was game balance a long, LONG, LONG time ago and the game has well gone past Armageddon levels of Power Creep since Delta Rising.
What is this phaser torpedo? In other thoughts I honestly the only way to make torpedoes show accurate would be that they need to be their own ship slots.
But I am not fan of that option, how effective do torpedoes need to be? If done wrong a buff could make them greater then energy weapons, which might end in a lot of mixed feelings. I'd like to see torpedoes taken off of global cooldown and balanced accordingly. I would also like to see as far as pvp goes shield power should have some effect on the kinetic resistance.
Destructible torpedoes don't make a lot of sense even in universe. As I can't remember very many torpedoes shot down except the one in voyager,
On another note why isn't the Borg torpedo a plasma energy torpedo? I know it one of those old special torpedoes but i think it should be updated, to be a little more useful like making it wide angle and energy based. Since that's what it looks like no kinetic damage there...
Either torpedoes need to be given your speed buffs when they are launched, or be faked like cannons..
What is this phaser torpedo? In other thoughts I honestly the only way to make torpedoes show accurate would be that they need to be their own ship slots.
But I am not fan of that option, how effective do torpedoes need to be? If done wrong a buff could make them greater then energy weapons, which might end in a lot of mixed feelings. I'd like to see torpedoes taken off of global cooldown and balanced accordingly. I would also like to see as far as pvp goes shield power should have some effect on the kinetic resistance.
Destructive torpedoes don't make a lot of since even in universe. As I can't remember very many torpedoes shot down except the one in voyager,
On another note why isn't the Borg torpedo a plasma energy torpedo? I know it one of those old special torpedoes but i think it should be updated, to be a little more useful like making it wide angle and energy based. Since that's what it looks like no kinetic damage there...
Either torpedoes need to be given your speed buffs when they are launched, or be faked like cannons..
Torpedoes in Star Trek have traditionally been powerful weapons.
General Chang's special BOP was ripping apart Enterprise and even brand spankin' new Excelsior by firing photons from cloaks.
In DS9, the Excelsior-class "Lakota" was skirmishing with the Defiant. Lakota simply was trying to keep Defiant away from Earth, but Defiant's unreported upgrades were tougher than expected. The Admiral orders Benteen to use Quantum Torpedoes on the Defiant and she was alarmed. The Quantums would destroy Defiant and she only wanted to disable or drive it away. https://youtu.be/dBmmlHR1Bwg?t=119
You got DS9 itself loaded with torpedo launchers, more than sufficient in causing tremendous damage to ships. https://youtu.be/imqPcL07q1Y?t=151
Stuff like phasers, disruptors, etc. are what you use for finesse, precision, even disabling ships. But torpedoes are the weapons of devastation.
If they really wanted to be revolutionary they could make energy weapons have the same difficulty damaging hull as kinetics suffer from shields.
That one made me really laugh. You know at least it’s not about fire at will any more… by now all energy weapons are evil! All are cheap and dirty to use. NERF!
Well why not?
From the very beginning this game has had some seriously flawed logic in that energy weapons are great at everything but yet torpedoes or anything kinetic is next to useless in a lot of situations despite it being the total opposite in the shows and movies.
It should always have been set up so that each weapon type has different pros and con but we just don't have that.
I don't care for people using all energy weapons, or following whatever the latest meta is, but i do care that you have such a huge disparity between not only different weapons being effective, but also what we saw on screen.
Torps can be made to work but it's a massive struggle and costly, and still lacks behind most other damage builds. And for any new players trying to get into using them it's an absolute nightmare because at low level that single torp you have is a godsend but the higher you level the more worthless kinetics become. So someone who wants to play like their favourite show captain did quickly loses faith in running any kinetic weapons.
That's some seriously flawed game design.
Perhaps what is needed is to take everything right back to the beginning and start over with some balanced weaponry.
That's usually known as a sequel, and I hope like hell Cryptic isn't permitted to commit it.
Personally I don't think there is any need for energy vs. torpedo damage to be similar to what we saw in the shows. If you want the game to be like the shows, our phaser banks should get depleted (like Enterprise's were in Nemesis), we should have a limited amount of torpedoes and most fights in the game wouldn't be realistic anyway considering the amount of enemies and how long the fights take.
This is a game, and the main goal should be (and has been, as stated during both the rebalancing and revamp of the skill tree) to promote build diversity, to give players the idea that their choices are not wrong. Energy torpedoes can be considered an 'easy' way for the Devs to allow players to use torps without sacrificing too much, thus making them available, useful and attractive to a broader public rather than just the veterans who can find ways to make anything effective.
Taking that into account, I think we will only see more energy torpedoes and I think that's a good thing, even if it means that kinetics may seem to become obsolete. As I've stated before, it is likely that many players just want to use torpedoes because of the visuals. In that case it is a nice bonus if more torpedoes are released that have the advantage of benefitting from energy boosts (thus making them attractive to a broad array of players) while visually looking just like a kinetic torpedo.
It's a change that will likely not be stopped and energy torpedoes will likely become more popular and the best torpedo choice. I think that's also something that needs to be accepted while thinking of boosts to kinetics. The main part of the game will likely always remain focussed on energy weapons and any idea to boost kinetic torpedoes (or reworking their mechanics) should probably keep that in mind.
Fixing things like flight speed or reloading of torpedoes may help close the gap between all energy builds, energy + energy torp builds, energy + kinetic torp builds and, finally, all torpedo builds but a gap will probably still remain. Simply because I think it is highly unlikely that the devs want to further boost one specific set of weapons (kinetics) when, overall, power/DPS doesn't seem to be lacking for most players. For fairness, also note that torpedoes already give one benefit they may consider important: they don't cost weapon power.
[4:46] [Combat {self}] Your Haymaker deals 23337 (9049) Physical Damage(Critical) to Spawnmother
What is this phaser torpedo? In other thoughts I honestly the only way to make torpedoes show accurate would be that they need to be their own ship slots.
But I am not fan of that option, how effective do torpedoes need to be? If done wrong a buff could make them greater then energy weapons, which might end in a lot of mixed feelings. I'd like to see torpedoes taken off of global cooldown and balanced accordingly. I would also like to see as far as pvp goes shield power should have some effect on the kinetic resistance.
Destructive torpedoes don't make a lot of since even in universe. As I can't remember very many torpedoes shot down except the one in voyager,
On another note why isn't the Borg torpedo a plasma energy torpedo? I know it one of those old special torpedoes but i think it should be updated, to be a little more useful like making it wide angle and energy based. Since that's what it looks like no kinetic damage there...
Either torpedoes need to be given your speed buffs when they are launched, or be faked like cannons..
Torpedoes in Star Trek have traditionally been powerful weapons.
General Chang's special BOP was ripping apart Enterprise and even brand spankin' new Excelsior by firing photons from cloaks.
In DS9, the Excelsior-class "Lakota" was skirmishing with the Defiant. Lakota simply was trying to keep Defiant away from Earth, but Defiant's unreported upgrades were tougher than expected. The Admiral orders Benteen to use Quantum Torpedoes on the Defiant and she was alarmed. The Quantums would destroy Defiant and she only wanted to disable or drive it away. https://youtu.be/dBmmlHR1Bwg?t=119
You got DS9 itself loaded with torpedo launchers, more than sufficient in causing tremendous damage to ships. https://youtu.be/imqPcL07q1Y?t=151
Stuff like phasers, disruptors, etc. are what you use for finesse, precision, even disabling ships. But torpedoes are the weapons of devastation.
"Destructive torpedoes don't make a lot of since even in universe. As I can't remember very many torpedoes shot down except the one in voyager, "
I made a mistake when I posted this part. I meant destructible torpedoes, because I only remember voyager shooting it's own torpedo once. Even if they are destructible they should have absurd defense, with only a one percent chance to hit.
It's a change that will likely not be stopped and energy torpedoes will likely become more popular and the best torpedo choice. I think that's also something that needs to be accepted while thinking of boosts to kinetics. The main part of the game will likely always remain focussed on energy weapons and any idea to boost kinetic torpedoes (or reworking their mechanics) should probably keep that in mind.
Fixing things like flight speed or reloading of torpedoes may help close the gap between all energy builds, energy + energy torp builds, energy + kinetic torp builds and, finally, all torpedo builds but a gap will probably still remain. Simply because I think it is highly unlikely that the devs want to further boost one specific set of weapons (kinetics) when, overall, power/DPS doesn't seem to be lacking for most players. For fairness, also note that torpedoes already give one benefit they may consider important: they don't cost weapon power.
I refer back to what Borticus said in the recorded interview linked above. If the easier path for them is to abandon the kinetics and put Dev time into energy projectiles, then say so and move on with it. If the concern is with a few people being exceptionally good at kinetic torps, pushing the 300K DPS range, what's wrong with that if other builds can do the same as well?
So it sounds like the easiest way to start re-balancing torpedoes/making them good is to start reducing the amount that is flat out negated by shields and working from there.
So it sounds like the easiest way to start re-balancing torpedoes/making them good is to start reducing the amount that is flat out negated by shields and working from there.
I am in the minority on this thought, but I don't agree with this strategy, especially in PvP. I'd say make energy weapons less effective vs hull (a la resistances), and go from there. Obviously, scale resistances based off of category of ship, etc.
Travel time and firing mechanics would be my #1 and #2 things to address immediately, followed by trait development. Go run energy weapons without any traits and see how well you do.
Making energy weapons weaker against hull is one of the worst ideas I have ever heard of in my entire life. Take the playstyle that 90% of the playerbase uses and *throw it in the garbage,* then wonder why the game died a month later.
Energy weapons are much more popular and more widely used, and if people had learned anything from Season 13 it's that players don't like being made weaker for using the standard, optimal build. And it's not like it even makes sense from an in-universe standpoint either! There are numerous times on screen when a ship is destroyed by energy beams instead of a torpedo.
Please, stop letting your reasonable judgement be clouded by a percieved inferiority of torpedo weapons, it's not going to help anyone if you only imbalance the problem to the other side, rather than actually fixing it by making both choices strong enough on their own to exist together, equally.
So it sounds like the easiest way to start re-balancing torpedoes/making them good is to start reducing the amount that is flat out negated by shields and working from there.
If they were going to change the flat reduction of torpedo damage against shields, than I would just say take the extra time to make the reduction dynamic with remaining hp on the shield or the reduction amount tying to the shield power of the ship.
So it sounds like the easiest way to start re-balancing torpedoes/making them good is to start reducing the amount that is flat out negated by shields and working from there.
I am in the minority on this thought, but I don't agree with this strategy, especially in PvP. I'd say make energy weapons less effective vs hull (a la resistances), and go from there. Obviously, scale resistances based off of category of ship, etc.
Travel time and firing mechanics would be my #1 and #2 things to address immediately, followed by trait development. Go run energy weapons without any traits and see how well you do.
I actually say that transferring the existing code that they had that applied to the shield reducing the damage of torpedo, and adjust the code to have it apply a similar reduction to beam and/or cannon based damage against a ship's hull, but maybe boost the damage they deal (or that they deal more damage to shield facings). Definitely the travel speed an firing could use some updating, and improvements.
Making energy weapons weaker against hull is one of the worst ideas I have ever heard of in my entire life. Take the playstyle that 90% of the playerbase uses and *throw it in the garbage,* then wonder why the game died a month later.
Energy weapons are much more popular and more widely used, and if people had learned anything from Season 13 it's that players don't like being made weaker for using the standard, optimal build. And it's not like it even makes sense from an in-universe standpoint either! There are numerous times on screen when a ship is destroyed by energy beams instead of a torpedo.
Please, stop letting your reasonable judgement be clouded by a percieved inferiority of torpedo weapons, it's not going to help anyone if you only imbalance the problem to the other side, rather than actually fixing it by making both choices strong enough on their own to exist together, equally.
Plasma Explosion Science consoles were widely popular and utilized by almost anyone with energy weapons, and they were massively popular as they were powerful before they were finally toned down (and overtuned downward, imho). It was a horrible game mechanic, and should not have existed in the multiple iterations for as long as it did, as it only made the changes harder to deal with.
The same can be said for energy weapons being the best at everything. This isn't hyperbole, this is demonstrable fact, backed up with a multitude of combat logs on various maps.
Weapons do have proper uses and specialties, hence the need for diversity of weapons, weapon platforms, and weapon enhancements to defeat the multitude of defenses, countermeasures, and number of adversaries. Proper game design would have one class of weapons do well vs one type of defenses, and another class of weapons do well vs another type of defenses, and each would have weaknesses, improper times to use them, opportunity costs of having more of one and less of the other, etc.
Referencing opportunity costs of having one class of weapons over another: There used to be such a thing as worrying about subsystem power, and having the right loadout of various weapons to be effective in combat. Due to traits, synergies, set bonuses, and skill trees that specifically boost one class of weapons without any conditions other than, 'use them', while those specific to another class of weapons are conditional of you having more of another class of weapons, or has next to zero effective combat influence for that specific class of weapons... there IS an imbalance in number of opportunity costs, trait and skill development, team and individual bonuses, other stats affecting their throughput, etc.
In short, just because it's popular doesn't make it right. If the scripts were flipped, I'd argue the same point AGAINST torpedoes if they were so grossly overpowered and everyone was using them.
The difference between embassy plasma consoles and energy weapons as a whole is simple. One is a proc that was grossly overused, exploiting a system of unmanaged stats, and the other has had the ENTIRE GAME based around it. Aside from occasional science powers, every bit of combat in the game has come down to energy weapons and torps, with energy normally winning out. To change how that system works would be to change how the entire game worked. You'd need to send out a balance pass of some 5 times as drastic as what Delta Rising did to npcs in order to fix the broken, unplayable mess being proposed here. Of course, that would also put torpedos on top of the damage charts, but then it's okay because who cares about fairness when you can have "justice"?
Compare that all to *not radically changing the fundamental combat system in the game* and the choice is obvious. Lower shared cooldown and reduce shield resistance to kinetic damage. Such an easier and safer choice, I can't for the life of me see why you wouldn't be advocating it. Would certainly help your argument to actually be talking reasonably, as opposed to trashing the majority of the populace's hard work in the name of making YOUR build suddenly king of the leagues.
The change would not only be totally gamebreaking, but completely unfair to everyone who plays energy weapons. No, thanks.
The difference between embassy plasma consoles and energy weapons as a whole is simple. One is a proc that was grossly overused, exploiting a system of unmanaged stats, and the other has had the ENTIRE GAME based around it. Aside from occasional science powers, every bit of combat in the game has come down to energy weapons and torps, with energy normally winning out. To change how that system works would be to change how the entire game worked. You'd need to send out a balance pass of some 5 times as drastic as what Delta Rising did to npcs in order to fix the broken, unplayable mess being proposed here. Of course, that would also put torpedos on top of the damage charts, but then it's okay because who cares about fairness when you can have "justice"?
Compare that all to *not radically changing the fundamental combat system in the game* and the choice is obvious. Lower shared cooldown and reduce shield resistance to kinetic damage. Such an easier and safer choice, I can't for the life of me see why you wouldn't be advocating it. Would certainly help your argument to actually be talking reasonably, as opposed to trashing the majority of the populace's hard work in the name of making YOUR build suddenly king of the leagues.
The change would not only be totally gamebreaking, but completely unfair to everyone who plays energy weapons. No, thanks.
It's far easier to tweak damage resistance (and to make the adjustments carefully) than to do what you are proposing. Enacting your proposal would make MY build the king of the leagues (with a little more DrainX tossed in the build). Besides, I'm not asking or advocating for the same level of hull resistance & negation against energy weapons as shields have vs torps.
It would hardly be more difficult to lower shared cooldown (A modifier which already exists on the Terran Task Force console) and decrease resistances of shields than it would be to go through every single aspect of the game and try to tweak it to fit in an unreasonable nerf to energy weapons altogether. As for it being on a lower scalr, any changes that would prove to be meaningful would have to have an impact, lest no change is made at all.
Regardless of ease of implementation, you still would have to address the impact on the playerbase, because if a change as large as that one doesn't go over perfectly smoothly, you're looking at a much bigger problem than Delta Rising or Agents of Yesterday.
And I don't understand at all why you would want to make energy weapons worse. Explain to me what the reasoning is behind the logic of "fixing" the weapon type imbalance by making the OTHER one terrible, as opposed to focusing on torpedo weapons only and trying to make them fit in with what we have going for energy weapons, so that they both end up on par with one another, and can be used alone or together.
It would hardly be more difficult to lower shared cooldown (A modifier which already exists on the Terran Task Force console) and decrease resistances of shields than it would be to go through every single aspect of the game and try to tweak it to fit in an unreasonable nerf to energy weapons altogether. As for it being on a lower scalr, any changes that would prove to be meaningful would have to have an impact, lest no change is made at all.
Regardless of ease of implementation, you still would have to address the impact on the playerbase, because if a change as large as that one doesn't go over perfectly smoothly, you're looking at a much bigger problem than Delta Rising or Agents of Yesterday.
And I don't understand at all why you would want to make energy weapons worse. Explain to me what the reasoning is behind the logic of "fixing" the weapon type imbalance by making the OTHER one terrible, as opposed to focusing on torpedo weapons only and trying to make them fit in with what we have going for energy weapons, so that they both end up on par with one another, and can be used alone or together.
I'll expand upon this later when I have more time to type. In short:
1. Increasing the throughput of torpedoes and making a dynamic adjustment to shield hardness/resistance based on current shield capacity are two adjustments that would need to be fine-tuned in order to prevent torps from being too powerful in performance.
2. The dynamic shield hardness/resistance would also benefit energy weapons, making them even more effective vs shields
3. Again, the proposed increased enemy hull resistance vs energy weapons doesn't have to be as drastic as what you see in CCA (again, I do NOT want it at that extreme), and it's just one element to be concerned with that allows for fine-tuning without worrying about re-balancing other areas of the game.
4. Not toning down weapon damage will lead to HP bloat on enemies (Like we saw in Delta Rising), an increased disparity in performance between those who have specific traits and know how to use them (Like we saw in Delta Rising), and an increase in player unhappiness (Like we saw in Delta Rising). We've literally seen the results of that experiment.
Furthermore, we have one Dev going on record more than once, stating that they do not want torps to be at the top end of the performance curve in the hands of a few, while still struggling in the hands of the many. That's the mindset that we, the players, have to work with. Hence why I proposed such a "radical change", because said change can be done incrementally, without major combat performance issues. The changes you propose I like, but it would be much harder to sell by itself and not have to worry about the Delta Rising effect later on down the road.
"Destructive torpedoes don't make a lot of since even in universe. As I can't remember very many torpedoes shot down except the one in voyager, "
I made a mistake when I posted this part. I meant destructible torpedoes, because I only remember voyager shooting it's own torpedo once. Even if they are destructible they should have absurd defense, with only a one percent chance to hit.
They are described as "unstable". Perhaps this is why you can destroy them.
Also note that the weapon used by the Romulans in Balance of Terror travels at WARP SPEED. That torpedo outruns the Enterprise at "maximum emergency reverse warp speed", whatever that is.
Why can't my Destabilized Plasma Torpedo travel at warp speed? My immersion...
Comments
All this lends to my point earlier. Energy weapons were being used to disable each of the ships, and towards the end of the battle, neither ship had much in the way of shields left and 'someone neglected to mention that the Defiant had Ablative armour', which was why the Defiant was still in the battle. One torpedo would have finished either ship at that stage, yet they were still only using Phasers.
One only needs to watch Generations to see how ineffective torps were against a fully shielded 20 year old BoP, fired from a top of the line Galaxy class!
Normal torpedoes are supposed to fired against bare hulls, not shields. There is canon lore on Energy based torps such as the Plasma Torps of V'Ger and the Romulans, which mean they are not just kinetic in nature and have greater effect on shields, and this is addressed in game by the damage type, but still, as I said Torps disperse this energy, whether kinetic or not over a larger area than a focused energy beam or bolt. People just don't understand that shields do not act the same as armour in terms of physics.
Thanks for the reminder because each time I log into this place there seems to be either somebody around who complains about that peeps only play ISA and CCA or that these maps have too short duration not giving everybody a chance to participate satisfactory. Take it or not kinetics play a central part in that by now.
With kinetic builds in the 150k+ DPS reach in ISA and with 300k+ (easily) in CCA it is very hard for me here do distinguish the sound discussion the OP intends from the scrub mentality of some of the players who have the habit to criticize every game mechanic which does not suite their playstyle.
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Those complaints are legitimate if they are about the strange scaling of rewards though.
Anyway, to get back to my earlier point: some boosts for kinetics only (that doesn't require sacrificing a regular console slot) would still be helpful imo to allow kinetics some of the extra benefits that energy torpedoes have.
If that means that CCA becomes even more of a joke, that's a problem but that problem needs solving anyway. What I was trying to say by pointing out that CCA isn't the only thing in the game, is that we shouldn't abandon ideas to give kinetics more benefits just because it might be problematic for one specific mission (which itself can be considered an anomaly).
As for your earlier question or 'like what?' : I had hoped that someone would come up with something. But unfortunately most of the discussion is about canon now and how unfair or unrepesentative the game is w.r.t. kinetics torpedoes compared to the shows and thus the reworking of damage dealt vs. shields and hulls.
While possibly a good way to solve that problem, it would be too disruptive imo so simpler solutions may be needed. I'm thinking along the lines of special kinetic console slots - to give just an example of a less disruptive change; one that doesn't take the entire game to a brain surgeon for removal of the parietal lobe because there is a minor feeling of pain to be treated in its left pinky finger.
[3/25 10:41][Combat (Self)]Your Haymaker deals 26187 (10692) Physical Damage(Critical) to Orinoco.
Star Trek Online volunteer Community Moderator
I'm not so sure. maybe PVP would whine because they whine over every change, but I think the ones woul would LOVE it are the UberDeeps. it would motivate them to get back to the top. Casual players would probably like it just because it does bring balance.
Personally the only real change I would like to see are changes to torpedo damage. right now you fire a torpedo at a ship . it hits for 1000, and 100 amout is applied to hull as bleedthrough damage, correct? (Not addressing any special mods or transphasic) so what happens to the other 900? absorbed by the shields. now, what SHOULD happen in my opinion, is 1% bleedthrough with shields at 100%,increasing percent by percent as shields are reduced, and a percentage applied to shield reduction.
I think if someone like @crypticspartan#0627 were to explain the mechaincs to us as he has in the past there is some degree of damage being transfered to the shield when hit with a torp. So even though it may seem like 75% of the damage is wasted some of it IS damaging that shield and if the facing is low enough will overwhelm it.
However i do agree that the mechanics of how a shield behaves should deplete as the HP's of a facing drop.
I've got a few ideas i just spit-balled to add to the discussion on how to allow such a mechanic change:
Those are just a few random ideas.
@peterconnorfirst I see your points here, but there are several factors that have to be considered.
First off, the video you linked for CCA requires dedicated torpedo builds, cloaked ships, significant buffs, and highly coordinated player attacks, and then record the "DPS" of the last attack to get the hyped result. It's a fun thing to do, don't get me wrong (same with 2-manning and soloing CCA), but to say that this is the norm for torps is not a reflection of what happens everywhere else in the game.
Add to that the changes that limit torpedo throughput and the removal of a set bonus affecting torpedoes (Nukara 2pc), the fix to OKS (but not addressing the other issues that OKS was originally masking), preventing some torps from having their effects utilized across all torps fired (Quantum Phase, Neutronic), and one wonders how a few players can hit 150K+ with torps (Answer: knowledge of torp mechanics + piloting + new traits + DOMINO console).
IMHO, one very important thing the player community doesn't have is a Dev vision as to how they see builds performing. Maybe that's intentional, or that this hasn't been on the radar for them, but it has been a subject both directly and indirectly addressed in the DPS channels AND by new players in STO. For fans of the franchise, the new player vision is as follows:
Energy weapons + 1-2 torps (hybrid builds) >>> all energy weapons > all torp >> torp/mine builds
The expected delta in performance between the all energy and all torp isn't huge. What they see in reality is:
All Energy >>> Energy + 1 torp (typically Naussican energy) >>>>> torp +1-3 energy weapons >>> all torp >>>>> torp/mine builds
If we control for piloting and variance in DPS runs, in almost all but one map (as of 2018-05-09), all energy builds are vastly superior to all builds due to synergies in weapon and gear set bonuses (individual and team), traits (number, individual performance, and synergies between), enemy characteristics (higher shield hp, lower hull resistances [HSE looking at you], spacing and pathing of mobs, etc), and some out-dated mechanics that can be fixed (flight speed, destructible torps, misfire frequency, elimination of chambering TS w/ HY OR limiting torpedoes to fire one at a time + torpedo gcd, etc).
Also, some changes that were made to control the power and frequency of use of some weapons (aka Tricobalt ctorp and mine individual and shared cd) were needed several seasons ago, but with the current powercreep levels, and the future mob levels coming shortly, a revisit of those restrictions (either reducing or eliminating them) is warranted.
Skill Tree options that address torpedoes are either laughable at best (Temporal Tree), were meant for hybrid builds (Command Tree), or are universal, but under certain circumstances (Intel) [Not enough testing for Constable has been conducted at this time]. It's up to the players to come up with creative ways (sometimes unintended, as stated by the Dev Team) to make something work with torps. That's the current state of the game.
The only clear message concerning torpedo mechanics came from Borticus on a Priority One (http://priorityonepodcast.com/po315/ time stamp 1:03:21), and I will let his words speak for itself (if there's an updated message from the Dev Team, please link it to me). While I am one of those people who are 'adamant' of torpedo performance being improved, I do not want it to be the only choice for peak performance across all build combinations. That's no better than all energy weapons being the pinnacle of performance. I'd like to see hybrid (canon) builds be the pinnacle of DPS performance, with other types of builds be lesser in peak performance, but superior in specific circumstances. It literally comes down to Dev development, and players figuring out ways to make them work (intended or not).
Fleet Defiant Kinetic Heavy Fire Support | Fleet Manticore Kinetic Strike Ship | Tactical Command Kinetic Siege Refit | Fleet Defiant Quantum Phase Escort | Fleet Valiant Kinetic Heavy Fire Support
Turning the Galaxy-X into a Torpedo Dreadnought & torpedo tutorial, with written torpedo guide.
"A good weapon and a great strategy will win you many battles." - Marshall
I knew using Kinetics would be playing the game on hard mode, but what I didn't realize was how bad the deck is stacked against Kinetics.
Shields negate 75% of torpedo damage right off the bat. Assuming no bleedthrough, a 1000 damage torpedo will lose 750 damage right off the top, and the other 250 damage is then done to the shields.
If a shield facing has 1 hit point left, a 1000 damage torpedo will lose 3 damage, 1 damage done to the shield, and the 996 damage left will go to the hull.
In the past, not all torps were following this model (it was worse for some torpedoes), hence part of the confusion. As of the Great Balance Pass of 2017, *all* torpedoes should follow what is above the dotted line.
Fleet Defiant Kinetic Heavy Fire Support | Fleet Manticore Kinetic Strike Ship | Tactical Command Kinetic Siege Refit | Fleet Defiant Quantum Phase Escort | Fleet Valiant Kinetic Heavy Fire Support
Turning the Galaxy-X into a Torpedo Dreadnought & torpedo tutorial, with written torpedo guide.
"A good weapon and a great strategy will win you many battles." - Marshall
I knew using Kinetics would be playing the game on hard mode, but what I didn't realize was how bad the deck is stacked against Kinetics.
https://sto.gamepedia.com/Transphasic_Torpedo_Launcher
Note these are just the standard Transphasics. Not any of the special ones.
How are you guys still using PVP as an Evil Bogeyman that holds your game performance back? PVP has died in STO years ago. PVP no longer has a voice in STO when it was gutted with Delta Rising.
Show me examples like here, where you see PVP complaints holding this game back. There isn't really anymore. The concern was game balance a long, LONG, LONG time ago and the game has well gone past Armageddon levels of Power Creep since Delta Rising.
But I am not fan of that option, how effective do torpedoes need to be? If done wrong a buff could make them greater then energy weapons, which might end in a lot of mixed feelings. I'd like to see torpedoes taken off of global cooldown and balanced accordingly. I would also like to see as far as pvp goes shield power should have some effect on the kinetic resistance.
Destructible torpedoes don't make a lot of sense even in universe. As I can't remember very many torpedoes shot down except the one in voyager,
On another note why isn't the Borg torpedo a plasma energy torpedo? I know it one of those old special torpedoes but i think it should be updated, to be a little more useful like making it wide angle and energy based. Since that's what it looks like no kinetic damage there...
Either torpedoes need to be given your speed buffs when they are launched, or be faked like cannons..
Its an energy based Torpedo like the Tzenkethi Tetryon Torpedo, Crystalline Antiproton Torpedo, and the Plasmatic Biomatter Torpedo.
Basically instead of dealing Kinetic, it will deal Phaser damage.
Torpedoes in Star Trek have traditionally been powerful weapons.
General Chang's special BOP was ripping apart Enterprise and even brand spankin' new Excelsior by firing photons from cloaks.
In DS9, the Excelsior-class "Lakota" was skirmishing with the Defiant. Lakota simply was trying to keep Defiant away from Earth, but Defiant's unreported upgrades were tougher than expected. The Admiral orders Benteen to use Quantum Torpedoes on the Defiant and she was alarmed. The Quantums would destroy Defiant and she only wanted to disable or drive it away.
You got DS9 itself loaded with torpedo launchers, more than sufficient in causing tremendous damage to ships.
Stuff like phasers, disruptors, etc. are what you use for finesse, precision, even disabling ships. But torpedoes are the weapons of devastation.
That's usually known as a sequel, and I hope like hell Cryptic isn't permitted to commit it.
This is a game, and the main goal should be (and has been, as stated during both the rebalancing and revamp of the skill tree) to promote build diversity, to give players the idea that their choices are not wrong. Energy torpedoes can be considered an 'easy' way for the Devs to allow players to use torps without sacrificing too much, thus making them available, useful and attractive to a broader public rather than just the veterans who can find ways to make anything effective.
Taking that into account, I think we will only see more energy torpedoes and I think that's a good thing, even if it means that kinetics may seem to become obsolete. As I've stated before, it is likely that many players just want to use torpedoes because of the visuals. In that case it is a nice bonus if more torpedoes are released that have the advantage of benefitting from energy boosts (thus making them attractive to a broad array of players) while visually looking just like a kinetic torpedo.
It's a change that will likely not be stopped and energy torpedoes will likely become more popular and the best torpedo choice. I think that's also something that needs to be accepted while thinking of boosts to kinetics. The main part of the game will likely always remain focussed on energy weapons and any idea to boost kinetic torpedoes (or reworking their mechanics) should probably keep that in mind.
Fixing things like flight speed or reloading of torpedoes may help close the gap between all energy builds, energy + energy torp builds, energy + kinetic torp builds and, finally, all torpedo builds but a gap will probably still remain. Simply because I think it is highly unlikely that the devs want to further boost one specific set of weapons (kinetics) when, overall, power/DPS doesn't seem to be lacking for most players. For fairness, also note that torpedoes already give one benefit they may consider important: they don't cost weapon power.
[3/25 10:41][Combat (Self)]Your Haymaker deals 26187 (10692) Physical Damage(Critical) to Orinoco.
"Destructive torpedoes don't make a lot of since even in universe. As I can't remember very many torpedoes shot down except the one in voyager, "
I made a mistake when I posted this part. I meant destructible torpedoes, because I only remember voyager shooting it's own torpedo once. Even if they are destructible they should have absurd defense, with only a one percent chance to hit.
But I can't find were this is ?
I'd trust Cryptic over EA any day. And Cryptic's F2P model is SOOOOOO much more player friendly.
Run Mirror Invasion for 14 days.
I refer back to what Borticus said in the recorded interview linked above. If the easier path for them is to abandon the kinetics and put Dev time into energy projectiles, then say so and move on with it. If the concern is with a few people being exceptionally good at kinetic torps, pushing the 300K DPS range, what's wrong with that if other builds can do the same as well?
Fleet Defiant Kinetic Heavy Fire Support | Fleet Manticore Kinetic Strike Ship | Tactical Command Kinetic Siege Refit | Fleet Defiant Quantum Phase Escort | Fleet Valiant Kinetic Heavy Fire Support
Turning the Galaxy-X into a Torpedo Dreadnought & torpedo tutorial, with written torpedo guide.
"A good weapon and a great strategy will win you many battles." - Marshall
I knew using Kinetics would be playing the game on hard mode, but what I didn't realize was how bad the deck is stacked against Kinetics.
I am in the minority on this thought, but I don't agree with this strategy, especially in PvP. I'd say make energy weapons less effective vs hull (a la resistances), and go from there. Obviously, scale resistances based off of category of ship, etc.
Travel time and firing mechanics would be my #1 and #2 things to address immediately, followed by trait development. Go run energy weapons without any traits and see how well you do.
Fleet Defiant Kinetic Heavy Fire Support | Fleet Manticore Kinetic Strike Ship | Tactical Command Kinetic Siege Refit | Fleet Defiant Quantum Phase Escort | Fleet Valiant Kinetic Heavy Fire Support
Turning the Galaxy-X into a Torpedo Dreadnought & torpedo tutorial, with written torpedo guide.
"A good weapon and a great strategy will win you many battles." - Marshall
I knew using Kinetics would be playing the game on hard mode, but what I didn't realize was how bad the deck is stacked against Kinetics.
Energy weapons are much more popular and more widely used, and if people had learned anything from Season 13 it's that players don't like being made weaker for using the standard, optimal build. And it's not like it even makes sense from an in-universe standpoint either! There are numerous times on screen when a ship is destroyed by energy beams instead of a torpedo.
Please, stop letting your reasonable judgement be clouded by a percieved inferiority of torpedo weapons, it's not going to help anyone if you only imbalance the problem to the other side, rather than actually fixing it by making both choices strong enough on their own to exist together, equally.
If they were going to change the flat reduction of torpedo damage against shields, than I would just say take the extra time to make the reduction dynamic with remaining hp on the shield or the reduction amount tying to the shield power of the ship.
I actually say that transferring the existing code that they had that applied to the shield reducing the damage of torpedo, and adjust the code to have it apply a similar reduction to beam and/or cannon based damage against a ship's hull, but maybe boost the damage they deal (or that they deal more damage to shield facings). Definitely the travel speed an firing could use some updating, and improvements.
Plasma Explosion Science consoles were widely popular and utilized by almost anyone with energy weapons, and they were massively popular as they were powerful before they were finally toned down (and overtuned downward, imho). It was a horrible game mechanic, and should not have existed in the multiple iterations for as long as it did, as it only made the changes harder to deal with.
The same can be said for energy weapons being the best at everything. This isn't hyperbole, this is demonstrable fact, backed up with a multitude of combat logs on various maps.
Weapons do have proper uses and specialties, hence the need for diversity of weapons, weapon platforms, and weapon enhancements to defeat the multitude of defenses, countermeasures, and number of adversaries. Proper game design would have one class of weapons do well vs one type of defenses, and another class of weapons do well vs another type of defenses, and each would have weaknesses, improper times to use them, opportunity costs of having more of one and less of the other, etc.
Referencing opportunity costs of having one class of weapons over another: There used to be such a thing as worrying about subsystem power, and having the right loadout of various weapons to be effective in combat. Due to traits, synergies, set bonuses, and skill trees that specifically boost one class of weapons without any conditions other than, 'use them', while those specific to another class of weapons are conditional of you having more of another class of weapons, or has next to zero effective combat influence for that specific class of weapons... there IS an imbalance in number of opportunity costs, trait and skill development, team and individual bonuses, other stats affecting their throughput, etc.
In short, just because it's popular doesn't make it right. If the scripts were flipped, I'd argue the same point AGAINST torpedoes if they were so grossly overpowered and everyone was using them.
Fleet Defiant Kinetic Heavy Fire Support | Fleet Manticore Kinetic Strike Ship | Tactical Command Kinetic Siege Refit | Fleet Defiant Quantum Phase Escort | Fleet Valiant Kinetic Heavy Fire Support
Turning the Galaxy-X into a Torpedo Dreadnought & torpedo tutorial, with written torpedo guide.
"A good weapon and a great strategy will win you many battles." - Marshall
I knew using Kinetics would be playing the game on hard mode, but what I didn't realize was how bad the deck is stacked against Kinetics.
Compare that all to *not radically changing the fundamental combat system in the game* and the choice is obvious. Lower shared cooldown and reduce shield resistance to kinetic damage. Such an easier and safer choice, I can't for the life of me see why you wouldn't be advocating it. Would certainly help your argument to actually be talking reasonably, as opposed to trashing the majority of the populace's hard work in the name of making YOUR build suddenly king of the leagues.
The change would not only be totally gamebreaking, but completely unfair to everyone who plays energy weapons. No, thanks.
It's far easier to tweak damage resistance (and to make the adjustments carefully) than to do what you are proposing. Enacting your proposal would make MY build the king of the leagues (with a little more DrainX tossed in the build). Besides, I'm not asking or advocating for the same level of hull resistance & negation against energy weapons as shields have vs torps.
Fleet Defiant Kinetic Heavy Fire Support | Fleet Manticore Kinetic Strike Ship | Tactical Command Kinetic Siege Refit | Fleet Defiant Quantum Phase Escort | Fleet Valiant Kinetic Heavy Fire Support
Turning the Galaxy-X into a Torpedo Dreadnought & torpedo tutorial, with written torpedo guide.
"A good weapon and a great strategy will win you many battles." - Marshall
I knew using Kinetics would be playing the game on hard mode, but what I didn't realize was how bad the deck is stacked against Kinetics.
Regardless of ease of implementation, you still would have to address the impact on the playerbase, because if a change as large as that one doesn't go over perfectly smoothly, you're looking at a much bigger problem than Delta Rising or Agents of Yesterday.
And I don't understand at all why you would want to make energy weapons worse. Explain to me what the reasoning is behind the logic of "fixing" the weapon type imbalance by making the OTHER one terrible, as opposed to focusing on torpedo weapons only and trying to make them fit in with what we have going for energy weapons, so that they both end up on par with one another, and can be used alone or together.
I'll expand upon this later when I have more time to type. In short:
1. Increasing the throughput of torpedoes and making a dynamic adjustment to shield hardness/resistance based on current shield capacity are two adjustments that would need to be fine-tuned in order to prevent torps from being too powerful in performance.
2. The dynamic shield hardness/resistance would also benefit energy weapons, making them even more effective vs shields
3. Again, the proposed increased enemy hull resistance vs energy weapons doesn't have to be as drastic as what you see in CCA (again, I do NOT want it at that extreme), and it's just one element to be concerned with that allows for fine-tuning without worrying about re-balancing other areas of the game.
4. Not toning down weapon damage will lead to HP bloat on enemies (Like we saw in Delta Rising), an increased disparity in performance between those who have specific traits and know how to use them (Like we saw in Delta Rising), and an increase in player unhappiness (Like we saw in Delta Rising). We've literally seen the results of that experiment.
Furthermore, we have one Dev going on record more than once, stating that they do not want torps to be at the top end of the performance curve in the hands of a few, while still struggling in the hands of the many. That's the mindset that we, the players, have to work with. Hence why I proposed such a "radical change", because said change can be done incrementally, without major combat performance issues. The changes you propose I like, but it would be much harder to sell by itself and not have to worry about the Delta Rising effect later on down the road.
Fleet Defiant Kinetic Heavy Fire Support | Fleet Manticore Kinetic Strike Ship | Tactical Command Kinetic Siege Refit | Fleet Defiant Quantum Phase Escort | Fleet Valiant Kinetic Heavy Fire Support
Turning the Galaxy-X into a Torpedo Dreadnought & torpedo tutorial, with written torpedo guide.
"A good weapon and a great strategy will win you many battles." - Marshall
I knew using Kinetics would be playing the game on hard mode, but what I didn't realize was how bad the deck is stacked against Kinetics.
http://memory-alpha.wikia.com/wiki/Plasma_torpedo
They are described as "unstable". Perhaps this is why you can destroy them.
Also note that the weapon used by the Romulans in Balance of Terror travels at WARP SPEED. That torpedo outruns the Enterprise at "maximum emergency reverse warp speed", whatever that is.
Why can't my Destabilized Plasma Torpedo travel at warp speed? My immersion...