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AFK penalty - here we go again

fruitvendor12fruitvendor12 Member Posts: 581 Arc User
So I join an ISE ISA PUG, standard queue. I enable all support skills. Level 60 in a Mircale Worker cruiser.

But in a PUG, a PUG on Normal, I get hopelessly outclassed.

[email protected]: CLR—Infected Space[1:53]— Dmg(DPS) —Flag Admir 15,266,171(138,783) Zerodd 13,660,199(125,323) T'Usul 8,017,880(75,640) Lourokk 3,501,979(30,991) Moshe Daya 372,925(4,238)

And I get an AFK penalty.

Sigh...

Cryptic, sure would be nice if you correct your algorithm.
Post edited by fruitvendor12 on
«134

Comments

  • davefenestratordavefenestrator Member Posts: 6,675 Arc User
    If you're joining an Elite queue with only 4K DPS then in my opinion you're being carried and deserve the AFK. Switch to ISA or a normal queue until you improve your gear and skills.

  • fruitvendor12fruitvendor12 Member Posts: 581 Arc User
    edited April 2018
    Please re-read my original post. Normal ISA. Don't make silly comments that are obviously not true.

    EDIT: My mistake. Meant to say ISA. My typo doesn't change the issue.
  • shadowfang240shadowfang240 Member Posts: 31,253 Arc User
    edited April 2018
    Flaming/trolling removed. Cool it. -- StarSword-C
    Post edited by starswordc on
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  • fruitvendor12fruitvendor12 Member Posts: 581 Arc User
    edited April 2018
    Response to moderated post redacted. -- StarSword-C
    Post edited by starswordc on
  • shadowfang240shadowfang240 Member Posts: 31,253 Arc User
    well, after doing some quick math...the other 4 members of that team did a combined 40,446,229 damage, while you (i'm assuming that moshe daya there is you) did 372,925...that's below the 1% threshold needed to not get AFK-flagged, so the algorithm doesn't need correcting, because it's working as it was designed

    what DOES need correcting is the same thing that's needed correcting since they introduced it - that it ONLY checks damage and not healing, buffing/debuffing or even just actual ACTION​​
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  • tigerariestigeraries Member Posts: 2,891 Arc User
    well, after doing some quick math...the other 4 members of that team did a combined 40,446,229 damage, while you (i'm assuming that moshe daya there is you) did 372,925...that's below the 1% threshold needed to not get AFK-flagged, so the algorithm doesn't need correcting, because it's working as it was designed

    what DOES need correcting is the same thing that's needed correcting since they introduced it - that it ONLY checks damage and not healing, buffing/debuffing or even just actual ACTION​​

    moral of the story... DPS 1st, DPS 2nd, DPS 3rd... basically DPS rules and everyone else can just scram cause your not wanted or needed =)
  • asdfjkadfjkasfasdfjkadfjkasf Member Posts: 302 Media Corps
    What sort of setup were you using to fall so far behind everyone else in the queue? Seems like you have a major issue with your build, and might need to work on that! Although as shadowfang240 said, it should take more than just damage into account, because there can be multiple ways of participating.
  • fruitvendor12fruitvendor12 Member Posts: 581 Arc User
    what DOES need correcting is the same thing that's needed correcting since they introduced it - that it ONLY checks damage and not healing, buffing/debuffing or even just actual ACTION​​
    Violent agreement ;)

    We have folks come into a PUG to do a parse that vastly skews results and force a lesser optimized toon like mine into an AFK penalty.

    I'm a member of two of the metal channels. I expect when I join a group from those channels to have a tuned ship and captain.

    But not a common PUG.

    It would be nice if folks wanting a parse would go off on their lonesome and form a group. It is a bit much to expect folks just out for a quick run and level a ship to somehow be silver plus channel member.

    Power creep. Why queues get less attention over time.

    Not good for the game.
  • foxman00foxman00 Member Posts: 466 Arc User
    what DOES need correcting is the same thing that's needed correcting since they introduced it - that it ONLY checks damage and not healing, buffing/debuffing or even just actual ACTION​​
    Violent agreement ;)

    We have folks come into a PUG to do a parse that vastly skews results and force a lesser optimized toon like mine into an AFK penalty.

    I'm a member of two of the metal channels. I expect when I join a group from those channels to have a tuned ship and captain.

    But not a common PUG.

    It would be nice if folks wanting a parse would go off on their lonesome and form a group. It is a bit much to expect folks just out for a quick run and level a ship to somehow be silver plus channel member.

    Power creep. Why queues get less attention over time.

    Not good for the game.

    Dude, its a PUG, there are no rules with PUGS.

    If somebody wants to join a random queue, thats there right. Regardless of how capable they are, or if they have insane DPS. While i know some DPSers can be arses, they shouldnt be forced, or told to create private groups amongest themselves to run queues.

    When you select that queue button, you accept the responsibility, as captain of your own ship, that anything could happen. Thats part of the enjoyment of MMOs like this, but it is also the price. You never know what may happen, and you need to accept things may occur outside of your control. That can create frustrating moments, or the best highlights of your MMO Career.

    You also need to accept, sometimes, that the fault doesn't lay within the stars, but within ourselves.
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  • seaofsorrowsseaofsorrows Member Posts: 7,374 Arc User
    ISA is the Advanced version of Infected Space. When you say you were in 'normal ISA' you mean a public version of the Advanced Map right?

    If that's the case, and you only do 4k DPS then you should not be in the advanced map. Rather you think it's fair or not, ISA is a straight DPS map and it's the map used to measure DPS. I'm not sure what you expected when you joined, but pulling 4k DPS in the Advanced Public will get you an AFK 99.9% of the time.

    Either work in some more damage dealing into your build or step down to the Normal difficulty. 4k DPS is simply not high enough for the Advanced Map, you're going to get AFK'ed every time.
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  • fruitvendor12fruitvendor12 Member Posts: 581 Arc User
    I think what some folks are missing is that this is a game.

    How often do we see folks complain queues are empty?

    This is why. It is power creep. Hey I've been playing STO since 2011.

    I've been playing MMOs since Gemstone and FIDOnet. I was one of the contributing programmers for TradeWars.

    I've seen a lot of commercial MMOs come and go.

    When they go it is because power creep destroys public queues.

    I do not need a lecture. I need a fun game to play.

    As far as I am concerned the algorithm is pretty easy to correct. Damage over time. Not ultimate percentage. This is painfully easy stuff to write. A simple checkpoint every N number of seconds that accumulates until end of mission.

    If you want I can write this out in FORTRAN 77 or Pascal or Commodore BASIC. Heck even COBOL.

    This is a game. You want the game to succeed, you get tired of empty queues, stop c.rapping on me.
  • fruitvendor12fruitvendor12 Member Posts: 581 Arc User
    What sort of setup were you using to fall so far behind everyone else in the queue? Seems like you have a major issue with your build, and might need to work on that! Although as shadowfang240 said, it should take more than just damage into account, because there can be multiple ways of participating.
    I think you pretty much agreed with me.

  • warpangelwarpangel Member Posts: 8,433 Arc User
    The so-called AFK penalty is a travesty.

    Penalizing people without warning, using a blatantly false label, with an undocumented feature based on a statistic not visible in the game is absolutely unforgivable.

    And if players below some arbitrary performance threshold are meant to be excluded from certain content (which I would support, though not for autowin easy mode milkruns like ISA), those rules need to be explained (in the game, by the developers, not random players on the forums snickering at others' misfortune), properly labeled, applied in an informative rather than punitive manner and the performance measurement made available to players (and no, third-party apps don't count).
  • asdfjkadfjkasfasdfjkadfjkasf Member Posts: 302 Media Corps
    I think you pretty much agreed with me.

    Pretty much, I don't agree that people should be punished for lack of participation if they did participate, but you should also try adjusting your build so that the current system doesn't punish you. They don't want people to just attack and then stop participating, but they should be tracking multiple forms of participation.
  • jwilliamswku1jwilliamswku1 Member Posts: 31 Arc User
    in other words...if your in a tank build or a heal build...you suck, is what I'm getting the game is telling people.
  • protoneousprotoneous Member Posts: 1,019 Arc User
    If you could just get your damage up to 8-10K dps you'd be over the 1% threshold. Respectfully, I really think about 10K is the minimum average needed for this queue. A lot of people use ISA as a parsing run and seems you got caught up with 2-3 higher deeps players. They usually come in pairs or groups of three with the other's supporting the main's "look at my pug run dps" numbers. Would estimate the top 2 parses you posted would put the players in the upper 10% of league. On a 50K toon it's tough to keep up with players such as this unless set up right and you're parse may very well have been much higher without them. Forget support or healing just do as much dmg as possible as quickly as possible even if that's not you're intended role.

    You have my sympathies for a long afk penalty wait. Perhaps Cryptic will come up with elite versions of these queues to give the higher deeps players some challenge instead of the silly speed face roll that ISA often becomes.
  • shadowfang240shadowfang240 Member Posts: 31,253 Arc User
    they need to put out the elites anyway because accolades - and costume variants - are tied to them...but that's a different subject entirely​​
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    "It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch."

    How Game Devs SHOULD be interacted with:
    http://askagamedev.tumblr.com/post/157238832062/i-remember-your-52080-rule-and-it-was-an-awesome

    "Curiosity is bad! It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed...and more importantly, it makes you poor!"

    "Beware of dog. Or possibly, enhanced, psycho-addicted, cybernetically-enhanced nightstalker death-dealing dog from hell."
    Passion and Serenity are one.
    I gain power by understanding both.
    In the chaos of their battle, I bring order.
    I am a shadow, darkness born from light.
    The Force is united within me.

    Stand with Star Trek: The Animated Series content for STO! #TASforSTO
  • protoneousprotoneous Member Posts: 1,019 Arc User
    they need to put out the elites anyway because accolades - and costume variants - are tied to them...but that's a different subject entirely​​
    lol yes, that would help with those as well. I'm sure it close to the top of their list.
  • coldnapalmcoldnapalm Member Posts: 7,217 Arc User
    Sigh...not this again.

    You need to do 1 fraking percent of the damage of the map. ONE PERCENT. I don't care if you are in a heal boat or a tank, but if you can not manage ONE FRAKING PERCENT of the what matters to progress the map (because damage is what progresses the map for ISA)...than you are a leech and deserve the "AFK" penalty. I suppose they could call it an AFK/leecher penalty, but that seems too cumbersom. Now on a map like MI, if you get the AFK penalty for closing rifts and powering the satelites, I can see that being a valid complaint as you are actively working on the success of the map to get better rewards and really they need to give quest objectives like that a damage value to prevent you from getting AFKed. So...yeah...you kinda deserve the penalty as you might as well not have been there for that ISA run...which is not a normal queue FYI but and ADVANCED queue...as in for ADVANCED players...not somebody who can't do 1 fraking percent of the map.
  • scrooge69scrooge69 Member Posts: 1,095 Arc User
    If you're joining an Elite queue with only 4K DPS then in my opinion you're being carried and deserve the AFK. Switch to ISA or a normal queue until you improve your gear and skills.

    errr there is no elite version of infected space..... what r u talking about there

    and his 4k dps r prob bc the others were mere to fast 4 him
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  • darmokkdarmokk Member Posts: 7 Arc User
    edited April 2018
    4k in isa? Well thats 200% more then a standard random in isa pug and the same i do currently in a ntte run. I see the day coming where i qualify for 10k channels by running ntte ;)
  • snipey47asnipey47a Member Posts: 485 Media Corps
    coldnapalm wrote: »
    Sigh...not this again.

    You need to do 1 fraking percent of the damage of the map. ONE PERCENT. I don't care if you are in a heal boat or a tank, but if you can not manage ONE FRAKING PERCENT of the what matters to progress the map (because damage is what progresses the map for ISA)...than you are a leech and deserve the "AFK" penalty. I suppose they could call it an AFK/leecher penalty, but that seems too cumbersom. Now on a map like MI, if you get the AFK penalty for closing rifts and powering the satelites, I can see that being a valid complaint as you are actively working on the success of the map to get better rewards and really they need to give quest objectives like that a damage value to prevent you from getting AFKed. So...yeah...you kinda deserve the penalty as you might as well not have been there for that ISA run...which is not a normal queue FYI but and ADVANCED queue...as in for ADVANCED players...not somebody who can't do 1 fraking percent of the map.

    Once again you fail to account for the fact that, in a run with extremely high-powered players, a player that normally puts up much better numbers is prevented from doing so. The reason is simple, because the high-powered players steal all the kills and you can't score damage on foes that are already dead. "Target that explosion and fire" is a great line in a movie but in this game it gets you unfairly punished.

    There were TWO 150k+ players in that run, and another 75k. Where the hell was he supposed to find targets when they were being vaporized so fast? The only chance he would have had was to park on the Gateway and shoot that while it was still being healed so that he could earn enough damage to pass the requirement. Given that such a thing is NOT what you're supposed to do in that mission, but in that situation it would be the only way not to be penalized, clearly the system is poorly executed.


    As the name suggests, AFK penalty is so that people don't join a queue and free ride their way to marks and dil. 1% is more than a far threshold to set this type of system at. Instead of blaming this system and DPS'ers for that matter, you should focus on the fact that 1% of damage in the map that the OP is taking about is just over 400k total damage. This is not a lot of damage at all and I'm sure the OP will be more on his/her toes the next time to ensure they get their share of the damage pie.

    However, if the OP going to blame the system or DPS'ers or bad spacebar or something from the Q continuum or whatever instead of trying not let this happen again by improving their gameplay in some fashion, then there is nothing that anyone can do to help.

    My tip for the OP: If you enter an Infected Space again and all the players shoot off quickly and destroy the first cube even quicker, head to the opposite side they all go start attacking the cube above the shield gen. Be careful not to destroy the regens too early else you will have spheres bearing down on you. Just focus on the Cube and you will get your 400k damage. The others will arrive to your side pretty quickly.

    Solved.
  • reyan01reyan01 Member Posts: 12,422 Arc User
    coldnapalm wrote: »
    Sigh...not this again.

    You need to do 1 fraking percent of the damage of the map. ONE PERCENT. I don't care if you are in a heal boat or a tank, but if you can not manage ONE FRAKING PERCENT of the what matters to progress the map (because damage is what progresses the map for ISA)...than you are a leech and deserve the "AFK" penalty. I suppose they could call it an AFK/leecher penalty, but that seems too cumbersom. Now on a map like MI, if you get the AFK penalty for closing rifts and powering the satelites, I can see that being a valid complaint as you are actively working on the success of the map to get better rewards and really they need to give quest objectives like that a damage value to prevent you from getting AFKed. So...yeah...you kinda deserve the penalty as you might as well not have been there for that ISA run...which is not a normal queue FYI but and ADVANCED queue...as in for ADVANCED players...not somebody who can't do 1 fraking percent of the map.

    Once again you fail to account for the fact that, in a run with extremely high-powered players, a player that normally puts up much better numbers is prevented from doing so. The reason is simple, because the high-powered players steal all the kills and you can't score damage on foes that are already dead. "Target that explosion and fire" is a great line in a movie but in this game it gets you unfairly punished.

    There were TWO 150k+ players in that run, and another 75k. Where the hell was he supposed to find targets when they were being vaporized so fast? The only chance he would have had was to park on the Gateway and shoot that while it was still being healed so that he could earn enough damage to pass the requirement. Given that such a thing is NOT what you're supposed to do in that mission, but in that situation it would be the only way not to be penalized, clearly the system is poorly executed.

    Totally agree!

    And sorry, but some of the comments in this thread make me despair. From what I can tell, from PuGs I've played which contained someone running a parse, I only average about 11 - 15k DPS on average. Does that make me useless? Does that mean I am a burden to any team I am on?

    Let me quote an post from a little while back:

    Me in a tac oddy on a fresh L50 toon and 4 other unknowns, first cube went in about 2 mins, I take all the aggro and die in the first min, wonderful, left transformer, I take all aggro and die twice before its gone, check my parser, 15k to me, everyone else under 5k, 1 left due to snr or quitting, no idea, don't care, we still hadn't lost the objective, its no biggie, I stocked up on components, Start transition over to the other side, chat now has a new team message... "This is usually quicker"... Look at the name, look at the parser, 2k... Hmm, I die again, I make a fatal mistake and type in chat, " sorry, this is a fresh alt, I'm taking too much aggro off over everything so keep dying" get some kind of insulting response from him as I'm making my way back about me not having the DPS to do the queue, noticing a nanite spheres a little to close to the 2nd trans I'm contemplating taking a penalty as I can't be bothered to deal with this guy, when the sphere gets dragged about 10km back to the gate entrance by a grav well of immense power, we now have a new drop in, in a tiny little Nova class, a new name appears on the parser, after following the forums for a bit, the names familiar to me, and I now know this isn't going to be so horrendous as initially thought. Abusive chat guy is now going off on one as I'm the only one with chat open, when new science guy tells him to shush and get on with things, I die a couple more times from pulling aggro, so does science guy, but we make it through without it failing anything

    Science guy pms me later asking what the abusive guy was on about, I explain and thank him for coming in when he did, if it wasn't for his well built ship and crowd control we would have had lots more problems, yes we could have just let the optionals go, but if we did, what's the point of doing advanced when a normal would have taken less than half the time.

    Anyway, I know you're out there science guy so thanks again, in fact I now roll that toon in a science ship because of you, lots of fun has been had

    'Science Guy' = me. And keep in mind that I don't do big DPS. It doesn't interest me - I place FAR greater emphasis on using science abilities. However, my DPS number DOES NOT REFLECT THAT. All anyone cares about in a DPS parse is damage done with weapons. Everything else is irrelevant.
    Does anyone care that my GWIII bunched the spheres up nicely, which likely improved their DPS scores? Of course not! Aside from the post I quoted I don't think anyone has ever said "thanks for the Gravity Well", but I've certainly had PM's telling me I should improve my build.

    And to be honest I sympathise with the OP. I would have been in the same boat - I suspect my Torpedo boat Nova would have been redundant in a match involving 150k DPS'ers, as everything would be dead before any of my torpedoes hit.
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  • leemwatsonleemwatson Member Posts: 3,106 Arc User
    Whilst I sympathise with the OP, there's nothing wrong with the AFK system. Even with a toon I've never really focused on, I've never had an AFK penalty! Just 1 well placed GW1 can pull the threshold on ISA, as it can on ANY PuG. That's not to say that's all you need.

    BUT.....I'm a big advocate for the AFK system, and I do promote fair-play and sportsmanship in games, so as long as it's doing it's job then people won't get put off by players leeching, which it doesn't always do, as it isn't in EVERY queue.
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  • warpangelwarpangel Member Posts: 8,433 Arc User
    leemwatson wrote: »
    Whilst I sympathise with the OP, there's nothing wrong with the AFK system. Even with a toon I've never really focused on, I've never had an AFK penalty! Just 1 well placed GW1 can pull the threshold on ISA, as it can on ANY PuG. That's not to say that's all you need.

    BUT.....I'm a big advocate for the AFK system, and I do promote fair-play and sportsmanship in games, so as long as it's doing it's job then people won't get put off by players leeching, which it doesn't always do, as it isn't in EVERY queue.
    There is everything wrong with the so-called AFK system. For one, it doesn't stop people from actually AFKing on purpose and second, it fraudulently penalizes innocent newbies/casuals. This has nothing to do with fair play, sportsmanship or anything but the cold hard fact that it simply does not work. At all.

    But as long as we're talking about fair play...the game does not specify any threshold of DPS as requirement for participation, or indeed even inform players there is any such thing as DPS measurement. It's therefore patently unreasonable for it to punish players based on it. Not to mention the unfairness of not informing the victim of this invisible requirement they didn't meet even after the fact, instead just falsely labeling them as "AFK."
  • postagepaidpostagepaid Member Posts: 2,259 Arc User
    The AFK threshold needs to be set by the devs for at least each difficulty level, it shouldn't be some moveable number that varies based on how many dps junkies are in the pug.

    It should also take more than just dps into account unless they plan on purging the classes and making us all tacs.

    But since the way it works at the moment helps push people into using dil for upgrading and potentially spending money on zen to get said dil they're not as likely to change it for the better.
  • coldnapalmcoldnapalm Member Posts: 7,217 Arc User
    leemwatson wrote: »
    Whilst I sympathise with the OP, there's nothing wrong with the AFK system. Even with a toon I've never really focused on, I've never had an AFK penalty! Just 1 well placed GW1 can pull the threshold on ISA, as it can on ANY PuG. That's not to say that's all you need.

    BUT.....I'm a big advocate for the AFK system, and I do promote fair-play and sportsmanship in games, so as long as it's doing it's job then people won't get put off by players leeching, which it doesn't always do, as it isn't in EVERY queue.

    I wouldn't say there is nothing wrong. For instance getting tagged in the MI event because you do what the mission briefing tells you and you close rifts and power up the station is an issue. The same for azure nebula mission if you do tractor beam duty while a tank aggros the group away and you get tagged as AFK. So there are issues...just not for strait up DPS maps like ISN or ISA.
  • antonine3258antonine3258 Member Posts: 2,376 Arc User
    coldnapalm wrote: »
    leemwatson wrote: »
    Whilst I sympathise with the OP, there's nothing wrong with the AFK system. Even with a toon I've never really focused on, I've never had an AFK penalty! Just 1 well placed GW1 can pull the threshold on ISA, as it can on ANY PuG. That's not to say that's all you need.

    BUT.....I'm a big advocate for the AFK system, and I do promote fair-play and sportsmanship in games, so as long as it's doing it's job then people won't get put off by players leeching, which it doesn't always do, as it isn't in EVERY queue.

    I wouldn't say there is nothing wrong. For instance getting tagged in the MI event because you do what the mission briefing tells you and you close rifts and power up the station is an issue. The same for azure nebula mission if you do tractor beam duty while a tank aggros the group away and you get tagged as AFK. So there are issues...just not for strait up DPS maps like ISN or ISA.

    This one's a good point - what if you're mainly hauling stuff on the Tzenkethi queues, for instance?
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  • alcyoneserenealcyoneserene Member Posts: 1,828 Arc User
    ISA doesn't even need high DPS to finish the map and achieve the main optional. I forgot the bare minimum but it's something like 6K DPS for every team member provided there's good crowd-control, focused fire, and know-how.

    The reverse is also true, if one high DPSer has never learned what nanite spheres are and where they should not get to under what conditions and decides to do things in the wrong order or worse CC the spheres in, the optional can still fail.

    Not sure what the solution to catching AFKers is, I see plenty of genuine AFKers in events like Mirror Invasion, and the game even encourages AFKing (won't name the event) since metrics are so important, but clearly it needs to account for healers, damage-in, and lowly alts (who qualify for all STFs, which might be the problem) or for-fun builds, because this is a game that everyone should be able to enjoy not just DPS parsers.

    On a sliding scale, from carrying to leeching to AFKing to intentional sabotaging, I don't see leeching itself as a problem as long as the player tries to play common objectives (because success = more fun) even if using unconventional ways deliberately, and it's the nature of pugs and the random risk factor. This holds true from arena competitive PVP (MMR tries to keep things balanced) to large scale PVP (without MMR, allowing the population size itself to even the map) and to PvE.
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