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Idea: traits and gear with drawbacks
fleetcaptain5
Member Posts: 4,784 Arc User
Recently several people here have suggested ways (perma-death, losing a ship or gear, restricting access to difficulties, friendly fire etc.) of making the game harder. This idea could contribute to that discussion, but it could also be executed as an extra option, without influencing current gameplay options.
The general idea is to add traits and gear to the game that, and have powers have drawbacks in certain circumstances.
I'll just give a few examples (with explanation as to why it makes sense in brackets).
- When more than one player activates Fire on my Mark, the target gains resistance (due to fire power actually being less focussed)
- When activating too many heals at once, they become less effective (due to the Engineering team being over burdened or something)
- When firing too many shots at a specific enemy, weapons become less effective (because the impacts of those weapons become more predictable)
- When using multiple rift-like abilities like Tyken's rift, Subspace Vortex etc. on the same enemy, these rifts start damaging each other and their effectiveness decreases (some better explanation can be thought of)
Benefits of this type of gear would be that
1) Players have to coordinate their attacks and ability use
2) Players have to be more careful, taking a lot of risk and trying to DPS your way through can become dangerous if your heals become less effective
3) Stacking multiple benefits for the same weapon type can become counter-productive or at least sub-optimal, promoting variety within a build
4) Spamming the same type of abilities on one enemy will be detrimental, promoting thoughtful use of abilities
Now, on to the two different possible approaches
One way of doing this would be to add entirely new abilities, that have potentially greater effects. For instance, they could add a more powerful version of Tyken's rift while the normal TR remains unchanged. This newer version would be more powerful, but it could be less powerful if you don't balance its use and spam it in combination with too many other things. Taking the example of weapon types: they could add consoles that are more powerful than the current, regular ones but, if you fire too many weapons of the same type, they would be less efficient. Again, currently existing consoles would still be available and have no drawbacks such as the ones described here.
The other way of implementing this idea, would be to replace all the current stuff and make the entire game more challenging, such that we'd only have the new abilities and gear that require consideration when used.
Possible other variations include whether the abilities used by multiple players should have detrimental effects and such, but that's a detail for me. I think some new type of gear which requires thoughtful use with potentially greater benefits for the tactically thinking players but small punishments in terms of efficiency when used without giving proper thought to their use, could be very interesting.
The general idea is to add traits and gear to the game that, and have powers have drawbacks in certain circumstances.
I'll just give a few examples (with explanation as to why it makes sense in brackets).
- When more than one player activates Fire on my Mark, the target gains resistance (due to fire power actually being less focussed)
- When activating too many heals at once, they become less effective (due to the Engineering team being over burdened or something)
- When firing too many shots at a specific enemy, weapons become less effective (because the impacts of those weapons become more predictable)
- When using multiple rift-like abilities like Tyken's rift, Subspace Vortex etc. on the same enemy, these rifts start damaging each other and their effectiveness decreases (some better explanation can be thought of)
Benefits of this type of gear would be that
1) Players have to coordinate their attacks and ability use
2) Players have to be more careful, taking a lot of risk and trying to DPS your way through can become dangerous if your heals become less effective
3) Stacking multiple benefits for the same weapon type can become counter-productive or at least sub-optimal, promoting variety within a build
4) Spamming the same type of abilities on one enemy will be detrimental, promoting thoughtful use of abilities
Now, on to the two different possible approaches
One way of doing this would be to add entirely new abilities, that have potentially greater effects. For instance, they could add a more powerful version of Tyken's rift while the normal TR remains unchanged. This newer version would be more powerful, but it could be less powerful if you don't balance its use and spam it in combination with too many other things. Taking the example of weapon types: they could add consoles that are more powerful than the current, regular ones but, if you fire too many weapons of the same type, they would be less efficient. Again, currently existing consoles would still be available and have no drawbacks such as the ones described here.
The other way of implementing this idea, would be to replace all the current stuff and make the entire game more challenging, such that we'd only have the new abilities and gear that require consideration when used.
Possible other variations include whether the abilities used by multiple players should have detrimental effects and such, but that's a detail for me. I think some new type of gear which requires thoughtful use with potentially greater benefits for the tactically thinking players but small punishments in terms of efficiency when used without giving proper thought to their use, could be very interesting.
[4:46] [Combat {self}] Your Haymaker deals 23337 (9049) Physical Damage(Critical) to Spawnmother
[3/25 10:41][Combat (Self)]Your Haymaker deals 26187 (10692) Physical Damage(Critical) to Orinoco.
[3/25 10:41][Combat (Self)]Your Haymaker deals 26187 (10692) Physical Damage(Critical) to Orinoco.
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And seriously, punishing healers? Is that really something you believe needs to happen?
Simple example to get the basic idea: if power Y heals an X amount of hit points, then the new power Z could, under certain circumstances* heal either X-1 or X+1 hit points.
Similarly, if a console Y modifies a certain weapon type by an X%, then the new console could, again under different circumstances, either modify it by a greater amount of X, or a smaller amount.
* These circumstances could, as mentioned, either be things like how many people use a certain ability on a target, how many similar other abilities (like exotic abilities, say a Tyken's rift and a subspace vortex) are already affecting the same target or how many heals have been activated within a given amount of time etc.
So non of it is actually punishing because
1) The effects could potentially be beneficial if you meet certain conditions
2) You're free not to use the new abilities - if they are added without affecting the standard abilities.
The only thing it would do, is add options which is never a bad thing I think. For players who want to play it safe, or specialise in healing or whatever they can just go with the regular, say, engineering team, Aux to SIF, Hazard Emitters etc.
For players who want to pursue a different build and only rely on one or two heals, they could use the new and more powerful *Aux to SIF while taking the risk that, if they do activate this ability and another heal too fast afterwards because they find themselves in trouble, their healing decreases. So there's a challenge in that you need to know when to use what rather than an ability always being beneficial and requiring little thought - with a bonus if you do take the risk and use the abilities wisely.
Similarly, you could go with a regular antiproton mag console and have a certain boost to your energy weapons, or you could use a new *antiproton mag console which can boost your weapons more, but only if you don't fire your weapons too often - so it could be ideal for those who use weapons that fire much slower for example. If you suddenly activate Fire at Will and get extra firing cycle haste, then your weapons deal less damage with this special console. And so on.
[3/25 10:41][Combat (Self)]Your Haymaker deals 26187 (10692) Physical Damage(Critical) to Orinoco.
Or, you pack of jokers could go play EVE and stop trying to turn STO into EVE with Phasers.
Maybe you should consider gimping yourself on purpose using what is already in the game. It is called "White Mk XII" And it has enough built in drawbacks you'll TRIBBLE everyone else in an MU PUG out of at least 50 or so Marks.
Besides... coordinating is already dang near impossible in a PUG, and unless you're using voice chat, not very many people are gonna use text chat at all unless its in a social zone.
I do not see any benefits or whatsoever what the OP suggests.
Anybody who wants to get far in this game and wants to become any good already involves himself heavily in team interaction and coordination. I do so each day no matter if I DPS, heal or even tank in HSE.
The means to do so are all available. The fact that so very few use it or can even comprehend what is going on is no justification to change years old rules that some of us managed to play by.
Looking for a fun PvE fleet? Join us at Omega Combat Division today.
As you must be. It's fine if you disagree with the idea being a good one or whatever, but seriously? Gestapo agent? Can't you just disagree without resorting to ridiculous name-calling?
I'm also not forcing any standards on anyone. Had you read the idea and the extra explanation I had given in a comment, you would have seen that most of it could be voluntary. Extra traits, consoles and gear that you're free to either use or ignore.
That's ok if you have no interest in playing such a game. Then don't use it. I can ensure you, my intention isn't to kill off STO since it's one of few sources of entertainment in my life, yes I'm sad like that
The gear wouldn't be deliberately gimped, it would have different benefits, and sometimes drawbacks when used in certain circumstances. Resulting in players being required to better think through their use of abilities and gear. Again, if you don't want that, then you can keep using the regular gear we already have.
A valid concern. Howevver, the Devs design new abilities all the time. We get new ones for the Winter event, through lock boxes, specialisations...
Now that I'm thinking of it, they could perhaps add these abilities as part of a new specialisation. Like all others, if you're not interested in a specialisation, you simply ignore the training manuals, the spec points, Boff powers etc. It would be difficult to add actual gear then because so far we don't have gear yet as part of specialisations, but that would be an acceptable loss I think.
[3/25 10:41][Combat (Self)]Your Haymaker deals 26187 (10692) Physical Damage(Critical) to Orinoco.
Fair enough, but rules wouldn't really be changed. It is indeed sad to see relatively few people work together.
Though I disagree with the notion that such interaction is needed to get far in this game. By spamming and stacking countless abilities, it's easy to get far on your own. This idea would allow players to go even further, but only if they are considering the actions of their teammates.
Which is why it surprises me that someone who's all for teamwork would oppose the idea - what's wrong with more teamwork when it can potentially improve all the players in the team if the teamwork succeeds?
[3/25 10:41][Combat (Self)]Your Haymaker deals 26187 (10692) Physical Damage(Critical) to Orinoco.
Problem is really that we already have a lot of stuff you asked for in game. We can’t stack powerful abilities like intel fleet, team frenzy or ico pulses; there is already cap for damage resistance reduction. Always has been. Why now ad penalties for the player to it?
The only thing new would be your proposal to some kind of lower returns in stacked heals from which I don’t see any game improvement for the player either. On the contrary it would only put dedicated PvE tanks in greater trouble than they are already. At the same time it would hardly influence the sub 10k DPS crowds who manage to die in PvE even though they hardly grab any aggro while 100ker in such runs (need to) absorb 50-70% for the team.
I think that’s the core of my reply. You entire OP seems to be aimed at crippling those in PvE who know what they are doing in the hope to make us more equal to those that dont know.
It’s nothing more than another attempt at nerfing the performance curve under the disguise of some team interaction. Team interaction and limitations to it are already there. Every choice you make has ups and downs.
If you, after S13, are still upset with the performance of some players in public matches well sorry. DPS has already been reduced by 40%. How bad do good players have to get for you to be happy?
Looking for a fun PvE fleet? Join us at Omega Combat Division today.
It is not at all my intention to nerf anyone, make players worse or whatever. As I said, the standard gear and abilities that are already there, can still be used.
It's why I suggeted two different ways of implementing this. Only in one of these, currently existing abilities would be less efficient if more than one of those were used (and that was a very simple example anyway). Since that option doesn't seem to be popular, as I suspected, let's drop that one then.
The other way of doing it, would mean that all the stuff, be it Intel team, Fire on my Mark, etc you name it, would remain the same. The only thing that would change, would be adding stuff that can potentially be more powerful, but only if wisely used.
For example, a new *Aux to SIF that is more powerful when used on its own, but less effective when used in combination with other self heals. The old Aux to SIF would remain unaffected, it's an entirely new ability that I'm talking about here. Same for, say, FAW. The old one would not be changed, but the new one could be more powerful, but this new *FAW could also be less powerful if used with too many other abilities. It would thus entirely depend on the player how he combines his new abilities, without taking anything away from those who just want to use the regular abilities we already have.
So actually, for the players who want things to be simple, they could either choose the more effective abilities that are best used on their own, or they could go with the more reliable stuff - thereby foregoing the potential extra benefits these abilities have but which do come with a risk. For players who want to experiment a bit more, it would be an easy way of increasing their healing effectiveness or DPS provided that they follow different tactics and don't activate too many of these abilities (which, btw, also opens up Boff slots for other stuff to use and thereby promotes diversity and use of abilities that, right now, aren't worth putting on your ship).
Basically, it's a way of giving players more powerful abilities, but with the side-effect that they should not mindlessly be spammed. For the Escort captain who currently relies on one or two heals anyway, such a new healing ability could be beneficial because his new *Aux to SIF is more powerful than the regular one. The only thing that requires thought in this simple example, is planning an attack in the sense that, if you suddenly need an extra heal, it will be less effective.
To me it seems that this idea would allow players that are worse because they know less well how to combine things. For the players who are already better, it could also be an easy way to increase their effectiveness.
[3/25 10:41][Combat (Self)]Your Haymaker deals 26187 (10692) Physical Damage(Critical) to Orinoco.
"To me it seems that this idea would allow players that are worse because they know less well how to combine things, to easily get better. For the players who are already better, it could also be an easy way to increase their effectiveness."
And again I wish to emphasise that all the currently existing stuff would still be there. And since abilities can easily be swapped out, the costs of just trying these new abilities and going back to the old ones would be almost zero (ok, a couple thousand EC for the training manuals maybe but that's it really).
[3/25 10:41][Combat (Self)]Your Haymaker deals 26187 (10692) Physical Damage(Critical) to Orinoco.
Whilst I see the science behind what you propose, as others said, they'll just complain. Unfortunately, this game is just an arcade game with extra buttons plus Farmville.
As for teamwork, apart from some good players who actually will work to fight, as soon as I see 'LF AFK run' in the DPS channels (of all places) I just shake my head and mute the channel. There are alot of people that just won't make the effort.
Rather than make the abilities more difficult to manage, and maybe split players into different tiers, they could just focus on more intelligent enemies. What I mean is take all the mechanics of what you describe but rather applying it to players across the whole spectrum of the game, apply it to specific foes. The devs already seemed interested in making enemies you need unique strategies to defeat.
A Borg boss, frequent use of a certain energy type will lead them to adapting to it, but they can only adapt to one type at a time so you need to make sure your team all use different energy types to keep the damage up.
Let's say you're fighting in a unique part of space where the barrier with subspace is weakest. If you use lots of rift-like abilities here they destabilise each other and either collapse or cause massive damage to players.
I think that would probably be less work for devs, not require lots of players to change loadouts and people are already used to specific queue bosses having something different about them so you're not going to get people TRIBBLE things up too much.
-Lord Commander Solar Macharius