test content
What is the Arc Client?
Install Arc

Community thoughts about flight speed

sophlogimosophlogimo Member Posts: 5,971 Arc User
I have started to build an engineering pilot escort for PvP. That requires, so I found out the hard way, lots and lots of speed, because all the other PvP escorts are fast. Extremely fast.

I would like to read what people feel about the kind of speeds we can achieve in the game and the gameplay that produces.

In another subsection, I recently wrote:
sophlogimo wrote: »
Many of you know that speed is a bit of an issue in PvP.

I just did a test with a pilot escort on Tribble. I stacked 121 engine power, EPS Power Transfer, Emergency Power to Engines 3, Evasive Maneuvers, an a Deuterium Burn, at an Impulse Expertise of just 70, with the new Competitive Reputation Space Set's engine bonus of +350% for activating a firing mode, and got to a flight speed of 495. That is roughly 15 km/s. And this was just a quickly improvised test. I am sure we could get that number higher by minmaxing the excrement out of it.

Granted, that was just a short burst of speed. I can keep her constantly at 130 (roughly 4 km/s), though.

But the game's Universal Weapon Range is only 10 km!

At the start of the game, lieutenant level with a standard issue engine in a Miranda class frigate at 50 engines power, your flight speed is 12.5 (just under 0.4 km/s), with the ability to go to a short burst of 35 (just above 1km/s).

So the game's range to speed ratio goes from 25 almost down to 2.5, with "range" to "burst speed" ratio going from 10 to 0,67. Why is that ratio relevant? Because that ratio is the time in seconds that you have to react to an opponent who is close to you before he's out of range. If that opponent is at the edge of your firing range, double that time, but then halve it again if you are both approaching each other - you can of course think of all kinds of things to do with such ratios, like flying parallel and suddenly change course, etc, but the point is: You need damn fast reflexes to work with such speeds in space combat!

In effect, these range-to-speed ratios are turning the game from a spaceship command game (captains in their 30s to 50s giving verbal orders to their crews) into a space fighter game (pilots in their 20s using the control stick of an airplane-like craft).

I am not in my 20s (and haven't been for quite some time). I know that most players I regularly interact with here on the forums and in the game aren't in their 20s either. Which makes sense, given that this is a game about TV shows that were made 20 to 50 years ago. I know I just can't keep up with that kind of reaction speed. Maybe I once could, but not these days. Human biology science isn't advanced enough for that yet. And even if I could keep up with it - would I choose a Star Trek game to emulate such types of combat, or wouldn't that be better placed in a space fighter game about small agile craft?

Now, you may believe that there should be a place for such fast ships in this game. That's okay, I am fine with that. But given the likely player demograpics, then it should be worth considering to at least put the range-to-speed ratio closer to the one that the game was originally designed for. In other words, then the range of the weapons should be increased. And if anyone would want to do that, the range increase would have to be to about 150 km (!) for ships that really want it, if you want to keep closer to the original design parameters of the game. Even if you shrug off the extremely stacked bursts of speed and limit yourself to base speed, you'd have to increase the range to at least 40 km (unless cycling two copies of EPTE3 is a burst for you).

Maybe it would be easier to, well... apply diminishing returns to speed increases? After all, e=1/2m^v²...

Or does a significant paying portion of the player base want to play a game were 0,67 seconds is considered an acceptable required reaction time, including latency?

If so, I'd like to know.



So, what are your thoughts on Ridiculous Speed(TM)?
Promote what you love, instead of bashing what you hate.
«1

Comments

  • nekofury86nekofury86 Member Posts: 181 Arc User
    I'd have to say, it doesn't bother me the slightest. Granted, I love the big slow broadsiding ships. The faster you move the harder it is to kill things, then again, the slower you are, the more vulnerable you are. I see this speed only being a small problem in PvP, and you still have to build that way, if you're taking speed over dmg, your priorities are probably wrong. Then again, only like 15 people do PvP, so I'm not concerned with how they want to play their broken extremely unbalanced part of the game.... which is part of the reason I don't PvP in STO.
  • e30erneste30ernest Member Posts: 1,792 Arc User
    I think speed has to be toned down on the high end not only from a PVP perspective, but for immersion as well. We're supposed to be flying capital ships, not fighter jets.

    Also, there is the issue of ships simply outrunning torps. IIRC, nothing in canon supports this (no ship can outrun torpedoes).
  • sophlogimosophlogimo Member Posts: 5,971 Arc User
    It is even worse. With my current escort build, which really nothing special, I outrun my own phaser cannon bolts. Timed correctly, I can approach a target, fire at it, and add all the bolts I release during that approach to a single wave that hits the target together...
    Promote what you love, instead of bashing what you hate.
  • mustrumridcully0mustrumridcully0 Member Posts: 11,486 Arc User
    So far, it hasn't bothered me. Maybe it might change if I start to PvP more again. But maybe not.
    sophlogimo wrote: »
    It is even worse. With my current escort build, which really nothing special, I outrun my own phaser cannon bolts. Timed correctly, I can approach a target, fire at it, and add all the bolts I release during that approach to a single wave that hits the target together...

    Sounds like you practice the Picard Maneuver. :)
    Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
  • sophlogimosophlogimo Member Posts: 5,971 Arc User
    edited April 2017
    Yeah, but I have also been at the receiving end of such waves with my carrier, and there is no real defense against them, unless you happen to be hit in one of those lucky moments when damage immunity is up. (And that is truly dependant on being lucky, since you cannot possibly see the escort coming, becausr it is just too fast...).

    That is certainly not fun, in my humble opinion.

    But I should refrain from posting in this thread for a while, because I'd like to know what other people think.
    Promote what you love, instead of bashing what you hate.
  • burstorionburstorion Member Posts: 1,520 Arc User
    edited April 2017
    Well, I was going to let this thread lie as it was on tribble, but now its on general; I guess its to time to weigh in as a pilot who thinks anything less than 100 impulse is slow (ever seen a guy in a vo'quv moving faster than most escorts in cca/isa/other or the guy in the red corvette/vorgon escort zipping around like a cat on a hot tin roof? thats likely me)

    First of all reflexes - if you have the reflexes, why should you be constrained in not using them? Would you tell a fighter pilot to react slowly so they can be hit by enemy surface to air missiles? Of course not - if they have the reflexes to avoid danger, they will - same as in sto (on a second point... there are instances in star trek where torpedos have been outrun, so that point is moot)

    Now for the big elephant in the room you have not noticed (or avoided a it does not fit the story you present) - Speed lowers potential damage.

    Why you ask? Think about it logically - 5 fore weapons each take x seconds to fire, each in sequence before heading to the aft weapon sequence

    If you are going too fast then, you cannot complete a full firing cycle of your fore weapons before passing onto the rear arc (where rears can fire but not fores) - ie, lowered damage potential. Contrary to common, misinformed belief, unless you really buff an attack, two; possibly three fore weapon discharges are not going to perform the archetypal 'vape' - but if they buffed to that extent and went slower, you'd still die but now they'd be able to fire every weapon instead!

    As to the power of speed tanking..well, yet again sto has you covered - there are a plethora of ways to defeat a speed demon

    1. Drain engine power - easy enough to do - polaron, energy siphon, neutronic, target subsystems amonst others - Lower engine power equals slower speeds
    2. Disable engines - Again, another option
    3. Spread torpedos - The bane of my time in kerrat, spreads have 100% accuracy and no matter how far you run (I did an experiment in the past doing a 2.3k impulse run from a friend firing spreads) THEY WILL HIT
    4. Subnukes - kill the buffs, speed slows to a stop
    5. [Snare] proc weapons - 5% speed reduction seems weak on a slow dread but 5% on a speed demon? its like draining a chunk of engine power
    6. Chroniton weapons - Yet more slow down
    7. Proper use of control powers - sure apo, polarise hull can negate control powers but ever noticed how long the lull between uses are? or insead of trying to stop them, do something crazy, like, say... use tbr and when close, fire off a photonic shockwave
    8. Use your evasive and run away - if you stick around, you will get slaughtered so run
    9. If you see them coming, use your own speed to raise the distance between their firing point and you - If you reverse while using evasive, you can drastically reduce the damage you will take due to damage falloff

    Speed is fine - it has its pros, its cons... and more importantly - a plethora of ways to counter it.

  • shadowfang240shadowfang240 Member Posts: 26,541 Arc User
    what damage falloff? any energy weapon user worth their salt is going to be using 3 ranks of long-range targeting​​
  • burstorionburstorion Member Posts: 1,520 Arc User
    edited April 2017
    what damage falloff? any energy weapon user worth their salt is going to be using 3 ranks of long-range targeting​​

    Maybe, maybe not... its better to act than to do nothing (also, falloff happens regardless, the lr targetting skill merely increases the range where falloff occurs, so packpedalling can serve a purpose)

  • sophlogimosophlogimo Member Posts: 5,971 Arc User
    edited April 2017
    burstorion, just for understanding your position better, do you PvP? Are you fighting things that fly at close to 10 km/s, or are you writing about PvE only, were many enemy ships are closer to flight speed 1 than to 100?
    Promote what you love, instead of bashing what you hate.
  • burstorionburstorion Member Posts: 1,520 Arc User
    edited April 2017
    sophlogimo wrote: »
    burstorion, just for understanding your position better, do you PvP? Are you fighting things that fly at close to 10 km/s, or are you writing about PvE only, were many enemy ships are closer to flight speed 1 than to 100?

    I prefer pve, but I've done enough of both to know the pros and cons

    for example, that tbr/shockwave combo is from pvp - either repulsing them or damaging and if they got close, if the repulsion wouldn't affect them, the disable and damage of the shockwave would
  • lordsteve1lordsteve1 Member Posts: 2,988 Arc User
    Oh you guys are gonna love the set bonus from the weapon set in the PVP rep.

    Bonus stealth for going faster.....lol.
    AFq3Uuz.png
  • mrpantsdown72mrpantsdown72 Member Posts: 14 Arc User
    edited April 2017
    Currently In some ships, especially with pilot seating, you can stack a combination of BoFF abilites and some consoles; you can make some escorts, while only for a few seconds get up-to or a little over 2000 (Yes that isn't a typo) in speed. That being said it's just for the lulz and messing around. It in no way serves any purpose to do in actual game play.

    Currently most escorts have a speed modifier between .20-.24 so depending on which escort you use will kind of limit right out of the gate the kind of speeds you can achieve for normal game play.

    On my Pilot ships (which have a mod of .24) I use the Omega engines (they are one of the fastest in the game) Helmsman trait, Advanced Engines trait and thrill-seeker trait. EPTE2 which puts me up to 130 engine power. and a2damp with only about 22 aux power (The more aux power you have the better speed bonus you get). I can run about 193 constant as with the appropriate cool downs you can have EPTE and a2damp hit global so they will always be running. Since its a pilot ship i can have Pilot team 1 as well which puts me up to about 209. (This number could go higher if I had more Aux power for a2damp)

    I have Omega, Evasive, and Clean getaway as well, with the various Cool down reductions available you can constantly cycle those 3 skill. When i say cycle you would Run Omega, once omega ends you would run Evasive, when Evasive ends you would run clean get away, when it ends you start over with omega. The order doesn't really matter just as long as you cycle them. This allows me to run with my already 209 speed to constant speeds between 300-450 at all times. However most of the time I run at the 209 constant and I tend to use Omega, evasive and clean getaway depending on the situation and the need for the boosts rather than a constant speed cycle.

    The advantages of the speed allow you to speed tank, you can run out of range or certain firing arcs fairly easy, you can out run certain abilities, the speed helps you escape from holds or slows and escape combat while low health.

    The downside at higher speeds is that its hard to fire torpedoes, In most cases you have to go to half impulse to fire the torps then speed up again or go out of combat then come back in to line up the shots

    Though i don't have much of an issue at the high speeds fighting slower ships, it is hard some times dog fighting other escorts as you are both flying around at super high speeds
    Post edited by mrpantsdown72 on
  • kiralynkiralyn Member Posts: 983 Arc User
    e30ernest wrote: »
    I think speed has to be toned down on the high end not only from a PVP perspective, but for immersion as well. We're supposed to be flying capital ships, not fighter jets.

    Pft. You're going to try to claim "immersion" in an MMO? Especially one like this?

    And even ignoring that ridiculousness, it's Star Trek. Wacky Space Magic Incorporated. Stuff can go pretty darn fast in space, especially when you have effectively infinite power to throw at the problem.


    ...swear to god, "immersion" is one meaningless buzzword that just needs to die in a fire.
  • sophlogimosophlogimo Member Posts: 5,971 Arc User
    kiralyn wrote: »
    e30ernest wrote: »
    I think speed has to be toned down on the high end not only from a PVP perspective, but for immersion as well. We're supposed to be flying capital ships, not fighter jets.

    Pft. You're going to try to claim "immersion" in an MMO? Especially one like this?

    And even ignoring that ridiculousness, it's Star Trek. Wacky Space Magic Incorporated. Stuff can go pretty darn fast in space, especially when you have effectively infinite power to throw at the problem.


    ...swear to god, "immersion" is one meaningless buzzword that just needs to die in a fire.

    So you are fine with those speeds?
    Promote what you love, instead of bashing what you hate.
  • warmaker001bwarmaker001b Member Posts: 8,869 Arc User
    Well, take what I say with a grain of salt as a former PVPer.

    Speed was vitally important in PVP:

    Moar Speed = Higher Bonus Defense
    Higher Bonus Defense = More shots missing you, or less time in someone's firing arcs, or a bad position
    More shots missing you = Less damage being dealt to you, less you have to repair

    There was a soft cap at Bonus Defense last I recall. Once in the high 90s it takes more and more speed to get over the 100 mark. Traits can help increase that. The best Bonus Defense I've gotten was about 122 with my Romulan & Reman Warbirds. RRW traits ooze +Defense.

    It was this reason why certain AOE abilities were prized in PVP because they were guarantees of hits, even against speed demons. Also, Science abilities tend to not care how high your speed, bonus defense is.

    With the power of even Cruisers now and the asymmetrical nature of Science, it's pretty important for Escorts not to be so easily caught. There's also the catch that these days compared to when I last PVP'd long ago, there are an astounding array of ways to increase Accuracy. Back then Acc x3 weapons sold well because PVPers wanted it to reliably hit those elite players flying the old JHAS, Defiants, BOPs, etc. These days, Acc is piled on from so many different sources that it's mind boggling.

    One thing about Speed Builds for PVP. They are for most parts buff dependent. A2D, EPTE, on top of high engine power and Hyper-Impulse Engines. The engine power and Hyper-Impulse are very big boosts to speed and mobility but A2D, EPTE are massive buffs towards that goal of speed. What happens if, say, someone were to remove those A2D & EPTE buffs with abilities like SNB? It's a different ballgame. There are other buff stripping abilities out there. There is even a reputation trait that can randomly remove some buffs. There is another old source for buff stripping.

    Killing those speed buffs was like the old school ploy of removing EPTS from a Cruiser trying to tank in PVP back in the day.
    XzRTofz.gif
  • warmaker001bwarmaker001b Member Posts: 8,869 Arc User
    lordsteve1 wrote: »
    Oh you guys are gonna love the set bonus from the weapon set in the PVP rep.

    Bonus stealth for going faster.....lol.

    There was already ingame a penalty to stealth for going faster. It's been that way since launch. Without me looking up wiki or anything, that looks to try to offset that penalty.
    XzRTofz.gif
  • rmy1081rmy1081 Member Posts: 2,837 Arc User
    Flight speed is a bit much. It's not game breaking in the sense of being OP but it is game breaking in the sense that the game engine can't handle ludicrous speeds and it causes lagging powers, misfires, shot's that should have hit but don't, among other things. I don't think this game was built for the speeds I can consistently reach. This isn't a pvp or pve thing, it's a game engine thing.
  • risingwolfshadowrisingwolfshadow Member Posts: 619 Arc User
    The speed of ships especially escorts is a bit much now from a PvP point of view. The minute ships can outrun torpedoes it's too fast. I fly an escort and I know the value of speed tanking because I rely on it and resistance tanking to survive. But I don't think I should be able to outrun my own torps and, with a push, keep up with my weapons fire.

    Perhaps the speed=defence equation could be adjusted as well as the speed bonus from items and abilities given a drop off the higher I think gets?

    I'll also say that targeting range could be increased to 15k and perhaps the speed of energy weapons and especially torpedoes be increased a little bit to make things a little more playable for anyone who isn't in their teens and early 20s.

    Just my opinion.
  • burstorionburstorion Member Posts: 1,520 Arc User
    Well, I explained a lot but looking at this thread it seems to be mainly complaints that center around "my ship could go faster for it can keep a bead on but I'd rather get a nerf so the weak hulled fast ships are easier for me to kill with my OAP level reflexes"

    (Fyi, I'm in my mid 30s and I can deal with a 200 impulse, 120 degree turn ship tyvm so that excuse of age lowering your reactions does not wash with me, you just need to practice flying something thats faster than a cruiser)

    While I would agree beams should be hitscan (which they are if you ignore the graphics, I can be hit by beams registering outside 10km as they fired while I was in range while other shots will fire as part of the cycle even if theres no target to hit as the game does not automatically stop firing (as its been qued to fire but when the program seaches for the target, sees its out of range and so discharges randomly, hitting nothing)), outrunning torpedos is a natural thing as unlike 'reality' sto torpedos only have their launch speed, not the speed your ship is going at plus the speed of the launcher (aka being catapulted..space physics is bizzare as technically the torp mass pressing to the back of the launcher is being accelerated initially by ship impulse then the launcher accelerates it further)

    If the torp speed calculations took ship speed into account then there would be no outrunning problem - so thats the fault of the games physics, not speed

    and as I said regarding speed tanking - if that firing weapon fires whilst you are in range, as long as its calculated it hits, it will hit; speed used to minimise the amount of the full weapon cycle a ship can fire whilst its target is in range while conversely, more speed limits the amount of firepower the speed demon can bring to bear in a run meaning you need to heavily buff to get a 'vape'... but if a ship that was slower equipped the same, they'd still kill the target but with nore weapons firing on the target
  • warmaker001bwarmaker001b Member Posts: 8,869 Arc User
    The speed of ships especially escorts is a bit much now from a PvP point of view. The minute ships can outrun torpedoes it's too fast. I fly an escort and I know the value of speed tanking because I rely on it and resistance tanking to survive. But I don't think I should be able to outrun my own torps and, with a push, keep up with my weapons fire.

    Perhaps the speed=defence equation could be adjusted as well as the speed bonus from items and abilities given a drop off the higher I think gets?

    I'll also say that targeting range could be increased to 15k and perhaps the speed of energy weapons and especially torpedoes be increased a little bit to make things a little more playable for anyone who isn't in their teens and early 20s.

    Just my opinion.

    Escorts, especially the much more fragile Raiders, rely on speed, mobility, Bonus Defense because they do not have the staying power of a Cruiser.

    Why should Escorts and Raiders suffer in survivability while Cruisers these days can also achieve great attack power while still retaining high survival capability?
    XzRTofz.gif
  • meimeitoomeimeitoo Member Posts: 10,766 Arc User
    rmy1081 wrote: »
    Flight speed is a bit much. It's not game breaking in the sense of being OP but it is game breaking in the sense that the game engine can't handle ludicrous speeds and it causes lagging powers, misfires, shot's that should have hit but don't...


    No, that's WAI. It's called The Picard Maneuver. :P
    2u4ikno.jpg
  • sophlogimosophlogimo Member Posts: 5,971 Arc User
    edited April 2017
    burstorion wrote: »
    Well, I explained a lot but looking at this thread it seems to be mainly complaints

    This thread is for collecting opinions on the matter. If many of those opinions are not satisfied with the situation, that's no reason to denigrate them, hm?
    (Fyi, I'm in my mid 30s and I can deal with a 200 impulse, 120 degree turn ship tyvm so that excuse of age lowering your reactions does not wash with me, you just need to practice flying something thats faster than a cruiser)

    Of course you can. I am 41 and can handle that. The question is, can you handle fighting a 200-400 flight speed ship when you are in a 40 flight speed ship? Because that, ironically, is where the great reflexes are needed.

    For reference: Flight speed 200 is roughly 6 km/s.

    And that's, by the way, the reason your "if people have good reflexes, let them enjoy them" argument breaks: A game that has such extremely high speeds forces everybody to have great reflexes, great speed, or GTFO.

    And we don't want people to GTFO. At least I don't. I am sure you don't want that, either. So what this does is that it reduces the number of viable builds.

    PvP yesterday was already Escorts Online all over again for me, with the occasionaly speed-tanking science ship in the mix.


    I would also like to point out that the game's Follow Target camera cannot handle such high speeds.
    Promote what you love, instead of bashing what you hate.
  • sophlogimosophlogimo Member Posts: 5,971 Arc User
    [...]
    Why should Escorts and Raiders suffer in survivability while Cruisers these days can also achieve great attack power while still retaining high survival capability?

    You really should do some PvP again, warmaker. Just a couple of matches to see what the amount of speed is we are talking about here.

    My speed-tanking Ajax class is basically unkillable by anything that isn't as fast as she is.
    Promote what you love, instead of bashing what you hate.
  • risingwolfshadowrisingwolfshadow Member Posts: 619 Arc User
    @warmaker001b I'm pretty sure I mentioned adjusting the speed=defence equation so that escorts wouldn't suffer so much from a speed reduction.
    Read first, then comment.
  • warmaker001bwarmaker001b Member Posts: 8,869 Arc User
    @warmaker001b I'm pretty sure I mentioned adjusting the speed=defence equation so that escorts wouldn't suffer so much from a speed reduction.
    Read first, then comment.

    Oh I'm right on the money. You see, it's more than Bonus Defense. It's mobility to get out of trouble. As I said earlier in the thread:
    *snip*
    It was this reason why certain AOE abilities were prized in PVP because they were guarantees of hits, even against speed demons. Also, Science abilities tend to not care how high your speed, bonus defense is.

    With the power of even Cruisers now and the asymmetrical nature of Science, it's pretty important for Escorts not to be so easily caught. There's also the catch that these days compared to when I last PVP'd long ago, there are an astounding array of ways to increase Accuracy. Back then Acc x3 weapons sold well because PVPers wanted it to reliably hit those elite players flying the old JHAS, Defiants, BOPs, etc. These days, Acc is piled on from so many different sources that it's mind boggling.
    *snip*

    I know what I'm talking about, I've been there and done that, and you need to read first, then comment ;)
    XzRTofz.gif
  • risingwolfshadowrisingwolfshadow Member Posts: 619 Arc User
    Touché, however, mobility wasn't a problem before DR when 90% of escorts were slower than torps so why is it now!?
    If you say DPS, I will direct you recent DPS nerf.

    My t5u Defiant can keep up with a pilot ship for a few seconds with the right buff order but most of the time I'm substantially slower yet I can still speed tank just fine and I don't run immunities like most.

    Escorts are supposed to be squishy, pilot ships even more so. It adds balance.
    When escorts can tank as well as a cruiser it's a bad sign.
    If you don't like getting killed in an escort, fly a cruiser or don't PvP.

    With escorts, risk should be part of the reward. That's what makes it fun.
  • sophlogimosophlogimo Member Posts: 5,971 Arc User
    Seriously, warmaker. Do a few matches. Flight speed 200, 300, 500... it is not like the old times, with all the speed-increasing traits and MkXIV engines we have these days.
    Promote what you love, instead of bashing what you hate.
  • dabelgravedabelgrave Member Posts: 979 Arc User
    sophlogimo wrote: »
    Flight speed 200, 300, 500...
    I used to pvp at those speeds back when the Risian corvette first came out. I enjoy high speed and high maneuverability. There's nothing quite like flying at 300 impulse toward your target, then hitting full reverse while spinning around to keep your weapons pointed at them as you pass.​​
  • wildeye042wildeye042 Member Posts: 67 Arc User
    Speaking as someone who doesn't do a lot of PvP, I find the speed and maneuverability of capital ships disquieting (I'm fine with escorts and BoPs, though); I'm often reminded of the cringe-worthy scene in Star Trek: Insurrection when Riker activates "the manual steering column". I prefer my tall ships in space stately and graceful.
  • sophlogimosophlogimo Member Posts: 5,971 Arc User
    dabelgrave wrote: »
    sophlogimo wrote: »
    Flight speed 200, 300, 500...
    I used to pvp at those speeds back when the Risian corvette first came out. I enjoy high speed and high maneuverability. There's nothing quite like flying at 300 impulse toward your target, then hitting full reverse while spinning around to keep your weapons pointed at them as you pass.​​

    You did? How? Back then, there where no Mk XIV engines, and no traits or pilot abiltiies to boost you. I am not sure how you would be flying at speed 200-500 continuously without those. Could you elaborate?
    Promote what you love, instead of bashing what you hate.
«1
Sign In or Register to comment.