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Featured Episode: Survivor

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  • redvengeredvenge Member Posts: 1,425 Arc User
    You entire argument is based on the idea that anyone actually cared about Sela immediately after the Iconians left. They did not.
    Um, what?

    She was clearly involved with the Elatchi murdering thousands of Romulans, not to mention all the unethical experiments Hakeev was up to (that she was happy to benefit from). She ordered the Tal'Shiar to hunt down and destroy all splinter groups of romulans and remans... BY ANY MEANS NECESSARY. She attempted to lay waste to Vulcan (seems a bit genocidal to me). At the end of the mission "What's Left Behind", it is revealed that she is wanted for war crimes by every major faction in the galaxy. The Federation and the Klingon Empire reluctantly hand her over to the Republic.

    And yet, since she helps make the bad Iconians go away, all is forgiven! Because contrivance...
  • saurializardsaurializard Member Posts: 4,385 Arc User
    edited April 2017
    Wouldn't you know... Sela has learned absolutely NOTHING from what happened after all those past events!
    Na, its pretty obvious she has.

    Shes clearly lost a lot of her bravado, and just sits there when you talk down to her.

    Especially that ending, old Sela would have never cared.
    I just saw the ending and yeah, it seems so, though she was quite irritating for a while.


    Also,
    that officer visiting her... I'm afraid to be right about his identity.
    #TASforSTO
    Iconian_Trio_sign.jpg?raw=1
  • chelly#7549 chelly Member Posts: 33 Arc User
    edited April 2017
    I wonder who it was, a couple of possiblities. I am thinking a TNG crewmember but I don't know.

    I enjoyed the episode, it wasn't to hard nor to easy. A nice combo of space and ground.
  • saurializardsaurializard Member Posts: 4,385 Arc User
    Sela was only involved with Hakeev as a means of fighting the Federation. She had no part in Hakeev's plots, nor did she work with the Elachi themselves. In fact, its even stated she sabotaged several of their efforts due to her not wanting to be a pawn of the Iconians or their servators.

    She also didn't "order" the Tal Shiar to do anything, since the Tal Shiar had become an independent organization at that point. Hakeev hunted down all the Remans because he was a loon who hated them, and saw them as nothing but beasts or burden. Sela didn't care about them.
    *cough cough* Mind Game mission *cough cough* Brainwashing you into doing horrible things *cough cough* onboard a half Borg ship.
    #TASforSTO
    Iconian_Trio_sign.jpg?raw=1
  • legendarylycan#5411 legendarylycan Member Posts: 37,275 Arc User
    it's fairly obvious who the mystery guy is
    geordi laforge
    ​​
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    A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
    An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
    A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
    A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"


    "It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch."
    "We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
    Passion and Serenity are one.
    I gain power by understanding both.
    In the chaos of their battle, I bring order.
    I am a shadow, darkness born from light.
    The Force is united within me.
  • jorantomalakjorantomalak Member Posts: 7,133 Arc User
    Sela was only involved with Hakeev as a means of fighting the Federation. She had no part in Hakeev's plots, nor did she work with the Elachi themselves. In fact, its even stated she sabotaged several of their efforts due to her not wanting to be a pawn of the Iconians or their servators.

    She also didn't "order" the Tal Shiar to do anything, since the Tal Shiar had become an independent organization at that point. Hakeev hunted down all the Remans because he was a loon who hated them, and saw them as nothing but beasts or burden. Sela didn't care about them.
    *cough cough* Mind Game mission *cough cough* Brainwashing you into doing horrible things *cough cough* onboard a half Borg ship.

    One flaw in that assumption mind games was a RR exclusive mission , and the person who visited sela had a holo of yar its my opinion that person was either Ambassador Picard or professor Data.
  • saurializardsaurializard Member Posts: 4,385 Arc User
    edited April 2017
    Sela was only involved with Hakeev as a means of fighting the Federation. She had no part in Hakeev's plots, nor did she work with the Elachi themselves. In fact, its even stated she sabotaged several of their efforts due to her not wanting to be a pawn of the Iconians or their servators.

    She also didn't "order" the Tal Shiar to do anything, since the Tal Shiar had become an independent organization at that point. Hakeev hunted down all the Remans because he was a loon who hated them, and saw them as nothing but beasts or burden. Sela didn't care about them.
    *cough cough* Mind Game mission *cough cough* Brainwashing you into doing horrible things *cough cough* onboard a half Borg ship.

    One flaw in that assumption mind games was a RR exclusive mission , and the person who visited sela had a holo of yar its my opinion that person was either Ambassador Picard or professor Data.
    What does this have to do with Mind Game? I wasn't talking about the mysterious guy from the end of Survivor, I was talking about Sela committing atrocities with the Tal Shiar.
    *cough cough* Mind Game mission *cough cough* Brainwashing you into doing horrible things *cough cough* onboard a half Borg ship.
    Taking things out of context does not a point make.

    Ignoring everything else in the game for the one instance were Sela and Hakeev's actions aligned does not remove the fact they did not the other 99% of the time.
    Oooh, then, if she only helped brainwash her own people into murderous Tal Shiar puppets, then that changes so many things! Brainwashing her own people is just to fight the Federation, so that means she never committed any atrocity.

    Remember, kids! Committing genocide is very wrong, but brainwashing people so they can help others commit genocide in your place is A-OK.
    #TASforSTO
    Iconian_Trio_sign.jpg?raw=1
  • jorantomalakjorantomalak Member Posts: 7,133 Arc User
    Sela was only involved with Hakeev as a means of fighting the Federation. She had no part in Hakeev's plots, nor did she work with the Elachi themselves. In fact, its even stated she sabotaged several of their efforts due to her not wanting to be a pawn of the Iconians or their servators.

    She also didn't "order" the Tal Shiar to do anything, since the Tal Shiar had become an independent organization at that point. Hakeev hunted down all the Remans because he was a loon who hated them, and saw them as nothing but beasts or burden. Sela didn't care about them.
    *cough cough* Mind Game mission *cough cough* Brainwashing you into doing horrible things *cough cough* onboard a half Borg ship.

    One flaw in that assumption mind games was a RR exclusive mission , and the person who visited sela had a holo of yar its my opinion that person was either Ambassador Picard or professor Data.
    What does this have to do with Mind Game? I wasn't talking about the mysterious guy from the end of Survivor, I was talking about Sela committing atrocities with the Tal Shiar.
    *cough cough* Mind Game mission *cough cough* Brainwashing you into doing horrible things *cough cough* onboard a half Borg ship.
    Taking things out of context does not a point make.

    Ignoring everything else in the game for the one instance were Sela and Hakeev's actions aligned does not remove the fact they did not the other 99% of the time.
    Oooh, then, if she only helped brainwash her own people into murderous Tal Shiar puppets, then that changes so many things! Brainwashing her own people is just to fight the Federation, so that means she never committed any atrocity.

    Remember, kids! Committing genocide is very wrong, but brainwashing people so they can help others commit genocide in your place is A-OK.

    I miss read it my bad :/
  • jorantomalakjorantomalak Member Posts: 7,133 Arc User
    Sela was only involved with Hakeev as a means of fighting the Federation. She had no part in Hakeev's plots, nor did she work with the Elachi themselves. In fact, its even stated she sabotaged several of their efforts due to her not wanting to be a pawn of the Iconians or their servators.

    She also didn't "order" the Tal Shiar to do anything, since the Tal Shiar had become an independent organization at that point. Hakeev hunted down all the Remans because he was a loon who hated them, and saw them as nothing but beasts or burden. Sela didn't care about them.
    *cough cough* Mind Game mission *cough cough* Brainwashing you into doing horrible things *cough cough* onboard a half Borg ship.

    One flaw in that assumption mind games was a RR exclusive mission , and the person who visited sela had a holo of yar its my opinion that person was either Ambassador Picard or professor Data.
    What does this have to do with Mind Game? I wasn't talking about the mysterious guy from the end of Survivor, I was talking about Sela committing atrocities with the Tal Shiar.
    *cough cough* Mind Game mission *cough cough* Brainwashing you into doing horrible things *cough cough* onboard a half Borg ship.
    Taking things out of context does not a point make.

    Ignoring everything else in the game for the one instance were Sela and Hakeev's actions aligned does not remove the fact they did not the other 99% of the time.
    Oooh, then, if she only helped brainwash her own people into murderous Tal Shiar puppets, then that changes so many things! Brainwashing her own people is just to fight the Federation, so that means she never committed any atrocity.

    Remember, kids! Committing genocide is very wrong, but brainwashing people so they can help others commit genocide in your place is A-OK.

    Tbh i would like to see a follow up to mind game where you the player winds up a manchurian candidate preprogramed to assasinate D'tan , would be a interesting plot it would be like a failsafe if sela is ever taken into custody or killed the programing takes effect but in the end the player somehow breaks the mind conditioning.
  • saurializardsaurializard Member Posts: 4,385 Arc User
    Remember, kids! Committing genocide is very wrong, but brainwashing people so they can help others commit genocide in your place is A-OK.
    WEW lad, nice strawman.
    Feel free to contradict me on that point. Not the times where Sela has disagreed and undermined the Tal Shiar because I agree they were at odds until she left Hakeev, just this one point where Sela willingly and gleefully brainwashed someone to make them kill their friends, implant invasive Borg tech into a prisoner, build and test banned thalaron weapons.
    #TASforSTO
    Iconian_Trio_sign.jpg?raw=1
  • rimmarierimmarie Member Posts: 418 Arc User
    it's fairly obvious who the mystery guy is
    geordi laforge
    ​​
    I dunno
    remember who owns that object that was brought to her?
    I think it was Data

  • captainkenny1captainkenny1 Member Posts: 326 Arc User
    page 4 until someone mentions data, that was the first thing i remember from the episode
  • starswordcstarswordc Member Posts: 10,963 Arc User
    edited April 2017
    @saurializard: I also note you correctly brought up, and he conveniently ignored, her attempted use of a sunkiller weapon against Vulcan, then an attempted naval bombardment after that failed (which we can reasonably infer would have been an attempt to glass the whole planet were there not a fleet in the way).

    There is ZERO reason anybody would have simply let her slip away apart from implausible levels of sheer incompetence. Just like the sheer idiocy that let her get away from the Republic the first time around. I could believe the Dominion granting her asylum to TRIBBLE off the Alpha Quadrant, but what was written was ridiculous.
    "Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
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  • nightkennightken Member Posts: 2,824 Arc User
    Sela was only involved with Hakeev as a means of fighting the Federation. She had no part in Hakeev's plots, nor did she work with the Elachi themselves. In fact, its even stated she sabotaged several of their efforts due to her not wanting to be a pawn of the Iconians or their servators.

    She also didn't "order" the Tal Shiar to do anything, since the Tal Shiar had become an independent organization at that point. Hakeev hunted down all the Remans because he was a loon who hated them, and saw them as nothing but beasts or burden. Sela didn't care about them.
    *cough cough* Mind Game mission *cough cough* Brainwashing you into doing horrible things *cough cough* onboard a half Borg ship.

    One flaw in that assumption mind games was a RR exclusive mission , and the person who visited sela had a holo of yar its my opinion that person was either Ambassador Picard or professor Data.
    What does this have to do with Mind Game? I wasn't talking about the mysterious guy from the end of Survivor, I was talking about Sela committing atrocities with the Tal Shiar.
    *cough cough* Mind Game mission *cough cough* Brainwashing you into doing horrible things *cough cough* onboard a half Borg ship.
    Taking things out of context does not a point make.

    Ignoring everything else in the game for the one instance were Sela and Hakeev's actions aligned does not remove the fact they did not the other 99% of the time.
    Oooh, then, if she only helped brainwash her own people into murderous Tal Shiar puppets, then that changes so many things! Brainwashing her own people is just to fight the Federation, so that means she never committed any atrocity.

    Remember, kids! Committing genocide is very wrong, but brainwashing people so they can help others commit genocide in your place is A-OK.

    Tbh i would like to see a follow up to mind game where you the player winds up a manchurian candidate preprogramed to assasinate D'tan , would be a interesting plot it would be like a failsafe if sela is ever taken into custody or killed the programing takes effect but in the end the player somehow breaks the mind conditioning.

    problem with that is you were already deprogrammed you even get a trait for it and everything. besides d'tan is a re-unificationist that alone is a pretty good reason for many romulan to assassinate him.

    if I stop posting it doesn't make you right it. just means I don't have enough rum to continue interacting with you.
  • redvengeredvenge Member Posts: 1,425 Arc User
    I think you missed something.
    In the Romulan player mission "Turning Point" (where you choose a faction) Empress Sela declares Romulan and Reman splinter groups not aligned with the Star Empire (including the Romulan Republic under D'Tan as well as the Reman Resistance) to be terrorists, and deploys the Tal Shiar to hunt them down by any means necessary..
    Sela was only involved with Hakeev as a means of fighting the Federation. She had no part in Hakeev's plots, nor did she work with the Elachi themselves. In fact, its even stated she sabotaged several of their efforts due to her not wanting to be a pawn of the Iconians or their servators.
    Hakeev is her second in command. In the mission "Mind Games" she is clearly working with Hakeev to brainwash the Romulan player. She goes on to use that information to good affect later, when she mind controls Gaius to escape New Romulus. She has "secret codes" in Hakeev's computers. She knows what he is doing. She knows what the Elatchi are doing. She even composes a recording that you find in "Shadow Play", attempting to shift blame from the Tal'Shiar to the Romulan Republic for the attack on Virinat.

    At best, she should be brought to trial to answer some serious questions about her involvement with the Elatchi and the Tal'Shiar. At worst, she is complicit in their activities for personal gain. She allowed mass murder to happen for her personal benefit. That is a crime.
  • redvengeredvenge Member Posts: 1,425 Arc User
    I never claimed Sela was some moral paragon, who had never done anything bad ever, only that, at the time of the ending of the Iconian War, no one cared about Sela.
    This is INSANE. The ROMULAN REPUBLIC cares. She was complicit in the murder of thousands of Romulans. The Federation AND Klingon Empire want her charged with WAR CRIMES (see the end of "What's Left Behind").

    What happened here is called "contrivance". Her crimes are forgotten because THE WRITER SAYS SO. There is no other reason.
  • legendarylycan#5411 legendarylycan Member Posts: 37,275 Arc User
    obviously they haven't been forgotten, because the player flat-out DEMANDS she agree to being placed under arrest before even thinking about entertaining the notion of allowing her aboard the ship - despite daniels saying right before that she's kind of needed​​
    Like special weapons from other Star Trek games? Wondering if they can be replicated in STO even a little bit? Check this out: https://forum.arcgames.com/startrekonline/discussion/1262277/a-mostly-comprehensive-guide-to-star-trek-videogame-special-weapons-and-their-sto-equivalents

    #LegalizeAwoo

    A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
    An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
    A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
    A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"


    "It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch."
    "We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
    Passion and Serenity are one.
    I gain power by understanding both.
    In the chaos of their battle, I bring order.
    I am a shadow, darkness born from light.
    The Force is united within me.
  • shadowfirefly00shadowfirefly00 Member Posts: 1,026 Arc User
    Well, the mechanics surrounding the temporal anomalies made for a good change of pace. I was also surprised to see that the reward is ground gear, even if the flavor text is a bit off (emphasis added)...
    This Romulan Operative equipment represents the best in ground based Romulan subterfuge techniques and gear. A person with these armaments could easily slip in and out of civilized life and move undetected for years. Operatives were also exceptional at gaining tactical advantage on an opponent, often not being detected until it was too late.
    The emphasized bit seems rather odd given that the gear seems more fitting for situations where Solid Snake/Sam Fisher-type stealth is needed, as contrasted with long-term stealth associated with sleeper agents ('The Americans', et cetera). Still, it's an interesting set to play with; what is unfortunate will be its lack of an associated tailor unlock (I imagine what Sela's wearing in this episode would've fit perfectly).
  • redvengeredvenge Member Posts: 1,425 Arc User
    Sela also didn't use the information gained in the "Mind Games" mission for anything. Gaius was a Tal Shiar agent, who had been brainwashed to follow orders, long before "Mind Games" took place.
    He is subverted by his nanomachines. This is made ABUNDANTLY CLEAR. He was assimilated, then rescued by the Republic. He had no contact with the Tal Shiar after he was assimilated. She used some kind of "space magic" to "flip his Borg switches". That is what she said. Then she went on an unrelated tangent about mind control (I guess to try and impress your character with her power and mystery).
    And yes, she has "secret codes" into Hakeev's computers.... because she put them there because she didn't trust him, and was working against him, and wanted to have some means to hack into his computers when needed!
    Sela was keeping a close eye on Hakeev. She makes this clear. I find it hard to believe she had NO IDEA what he was doing, when she says she keeps tabs on him
    Also, Sela knows that the Tal Shiar are attacking Romulan colonies, and uses that as a propaganda to spin opinion against the Republic, but the "Uneasy Allies" missions shows she really had no idea what the Elachi were doing.
    Not seeing how covering up mass murder means she should not be put on trial.
    And again, I never said she was a criminal, just that, at the time of the end of the Iconian War, when literally the entire galaxy just had its **** bailed out from being genocided by the Iconians, no one really cared.
    This does not follow the themes and stories in Star Trek. "Being accountable for your actions" is a common theme. It also run contradictory to the themes that "the ends do not justify the means", another common Star Trek theme. Hell, this does not even follow common logic You are saying car thieves should not be put on trial because someone else commits murder!
    You seem to lack basic understanding of human nature, and seem to think that people care about everything all the time with equal levels of value. They do not. When faced with impending galactic genocide, the year+ old actions of someone who did minor thing by comparison aren't important at that moment.
    You seem to fail to grasp the concept of justice. It, too is common to humans.

    Let's go back to square one, since you seem happy to defend this writing.

    At the end of "What's Left Behind", it is stated she is a wanted criminal. Everyone but you has seen her do enough terrible things for it to make sense that she be held accountable for her actions. This is what the writer stated.

    Now, through painful contrivance, Sela escapes and goes on wacky adventures in the Gamma Quadrant before arriving just in the nick of time to save the day (also, painfully contrived).

    At no point has the writer made it clear why no one wants to continue to imprison Sela for being a wanted criminal. Even if it was something like "In light of her valliant efforts on behalf of the galaxy, all the leaders of the Federation, Klingon Empire and Romulan Republic agree to forgive Sela for all her crimes". Trite though it may be, it would explain why she was not immediately locked up because she is a wanted criminal. Police forces don't take the day off just because it's a holiday. It makes no sense that she was not immediately imprisoned.
  • bubblegirl2015bubblegirl2015 Member Posts: 830 Arc User
    YIKES!
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  • antonine3258antonine3258 Member Posts: 2,391 Arc User
    The Federation seems to prefer rehabilitation over the death penalty, traditionally.
    Fate - protects fools, small children, and ships named Enterprise Will Riker

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  • dakotadahotnessdakotadahotness Member Posts: 170 Arc User
    Yawn....
This discussion has been closed.