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  • angrytargangrytarg Member Posts: 9,685 Arc User
    warpangel wrote: »
    (...)
    Yes, in fact it does. It is the Federation's official defense force.

    They are. But that doesn't make them a military in-universe as has been stated multiple times and even been made the center point of a whole movie worth of plot.

    If your arguments for something have to dismiss the very work we talk about because you don't think that it "feels right" you have to stop and think for a moment.

    For example, not a single "scientist" in the entirety of Starfleet is ever displayed as following proper scientific procedure to do anything, they all are TV trope "mad scientists" or wunderkinder. I still accept that they are scientists because the show tells me they are, even though if I would pull stuff like this, well...​​
    2r2u1s2.jpg
    ^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
    "No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
    "A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
    "That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
  • artan42artan42 Member Posts: 10,031 Bug Hunter
    • Normal person: I wonder what Starfleet is?
    • Picard: 'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.'
    • Scotty: '...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.'
    • Normal person: Hmm, but they have a vaguely military structure.
    • Google: Paramilitary; 'organised similarly to a military force'.
    • Normal person: Okay, but they go to war.
    • Google: Militia; 'a military force that is raised from the civil population to supplement a regular army in an emergency'
    • Normal Person: Okay I can see how emergency acts could mean Starfleet has to act as a military.

    • Not normal person: I like space ninjas, I want to see space ninjas in Star Trek
    • Picard: 'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.'
    • Scotty: '...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.'
    • Not normal person: I like space ninjas so the captain of Starfleet's flagship is a liar. and Scotty dosn't count because I hate JJ.
    • Picard's rank pips: 'Captain'.
    • Not normal person: Starfleet has captains, my *insert particular favourite Earth military* had the rank of captain.
    • Kirk: 'some vague line about feeling like a soldier'.
    • Not normal person: OH MU GODS, Space Ninjas Confirmed !!!!11one!!11.



    For those hard of thinking the above is hyperbole and an example of compressing down the arguments for fun. Obviously if you don't want space ninjas and just lack imagination or google feel free to substitute your own bias into the second sketch.

    Once you get to the point where you're accusing canon characters of lying to avoid inconvenient statements or choosing to pretend other words to describe how Starfleet acts in certain circumstances, then you've reached the point of satire.
    If you go into Star Trek asking 'what is Starfleet' and follow the evidence you'll be fine, however if you go into it thinking 'Starfleet is a military cuz guns' you get into the situation where you are getting into an argument with the captain of the Federation's flagship, which is silly for two reasons: firstly he's a member of said organisation and you're not so he's far better placed to know what his own job is, and secondly, he's fictional, which means you're arguing against a concept you're trying to drag your own real life into which is the opposite of what Roddenberry wanted.​​
    22762792376_ac7c992b7c_o.png
    Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
    JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.

    #TASforSTO


    '...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
    'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
    'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
    '...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
    'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
    '...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek

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  • artan42artan42 Member Posts: 10,031 Bug Hunter
    Obviously this is rather hypocritical of me as I probably derailed the thread in the first place but...

    Now we have the Universe Class, how about some of these as its hangar pets?
    vulcan_futuristic_cruiser_by_euderion-dakefd2.jpg

    This is the RetroFitted Dorsal Carrier, Design XRT-55D, Commission Date 3125.​​

    A Carrier inside a Carrier, Carrierception?
    angrytarg wrote: »
    For example, not a single "scientist" in the entirety of Starfleet is ever displayed as following proper scientific procedure to do anything, they all are TV trope "mad scientists" or wunderkinder. I still accept that they are scientists because the show tells me they are, even though if I would pull stuff like this, well...​​

    I tried bombarding my work with inverse tachyons but the microbiology department complained it mutated all their work into salamanders.
    It also didn't help much. Next week I'm trying a re-modulation of the labs bayron grid in an attempt to de-polarise the secondary phase emitters. I assume that'll help with speeding up manual titrations, because if it dosn't I'm out of ideas.
    22762792376_ac7c992b7c_o.png
    Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
    JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.

    #TASforSTO


    '...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
    'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
    'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
    '...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
    'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
    '...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek

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  • warpangelwarpangel Member Posts: 8,311 Arc User
    artan42 wrote: »
    • Normal person: I wonder what Starfleet is?
    • Picard: 'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.'
    • Scotty: '...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.'
    • Normal person: Hmm, but they have a vaguely military structure.
    • Google: Paramilitary; 'organised similarly to a military force'.
    • Normal person: Okay, but they go to war.
    • Google: Militia; 'a military force that is raised from the civil population to supplement a regular army in an emergency'
    • Normal Person: Okay I can see how emergency acts could mean Starfleet has to act as a military.
    Starfleet is not "raised from the civil population to supplement" anything, it is the regular army as commissioned by the Federation government.
  • warpangelwarpangel Member Posts: 8,311 Arc User
    angrytarg wrote: »
    warpangel wrote: »
    (...)
    Yes, in fact it does. It is the Federation's official defense force.

    They are. But that doesn't make them a military in-universe as has been stated multiple times and even been made the center point of a whole movie worth of plot.

    If your arguments for something have to dismiss the very work we talk about because you don't think that it "feels right" you have to stop and think for a moment.​​
    Some Starfleet officers don't like to call themselves by the word military. That doesn't change the fact that Starfleet nonetheless does match the dictionary definition of the word.

    It has nothing to do with "feelings" and doesn't have to dismiss anything except the misconception that characters can't have their own biases that color their interpretations of things.
  • angrytargangrytarg Member Posts: 9,685 Arc User
    warpangel wrote: »
    Some Starfleet officers don't like to call themselves by the word military. That doesn't change the fact that Starfleet nonetheless does match the dictionary definition of the word.

    It has nothing to do with "feelings" and doesn't have to dismiss anything except the misconception that characters can't have their own biases that color their interpretations of things.

    This is not how fictional storytelling works, no matter what RL definition fits anything. A piece of fiction builds a world through their character's expressions. You simply needn't apply "personal bias" to character's dialogue unless it is implied there is a conflict of interest. I tried to avoid to say that a certain group of people struggles with the concept of fiction vs. reality, but maybe that's the underlying problem.


    artan42 wrote: »
    This is the RetroFitted Dorsal Carrier, Design XRT-55D, Commission Date 3125.

    A Carrier inside a Carrier, Carrierception?

    I know where this thing would carry me...
    I tried bombarding my work with inverse tachyons but the microbiology department complained it mutated all their work into salamanders.
    It also didn't help much. Next week I'm trying a re-modulation of the labs bayron grid in an attempt to de-polarise the secondary phase emitters. I assume that'll help with speeding up manual titrations, because if it dosn't I'm out of ideas.

    You could try to invert the multimotor reflection of the teriary polaron buffers. This worked quite well on the geology department's new sieve shaker. It bears the risk of creating a tyken's rift and turning their lab into negative space, but what do they complain in the first place.​​
    2r2u1s2.jpg
    ^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
    "No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
    "A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
    "That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
  • jonsillsjonsills Member Posts: 8,307 Arc User
    My first duty station in the USAF was Strategic Air Command Headquarters. I was one of five enlisted personnel in my office; we were vastly outnumbered by commissioned officers. What's more, our unit was never once called upon to commit violence in defense of the United States. I guess that means the Air Force isn't military, and the whole "uniforms and ranks" thing is just a coincidence...

    OTOH, it's obviously very important to some people that Da Future not have military forces of any kind - I can only guess that they must feel soldiers are some sort of primitive life form that's too shameful to share their bright and shiny world. Therefore, my only contribution from this point shall be the occasional unavoidable snark, as there's little point in discussing facts with people who aren't interested in anything except two lines spoken by two characters.
    "Science teaches us to expect -- demand -- more than just eerie mysteries. What use is a puzzle that can't be solved? Patience is fine, but I'm not going to stop asking the universe to make sense!"

    - David Brin, "Those Eyes"
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  • angrytargangrytarg Member Posts: 9,685 Arc User
    So, the whole thing is personal then? I thought it was about Star Trek canon, if you are truly deeply emotional invested I can't really say anything about that. I'm not from a culture that wraps military service in as much pathos as the US-American does, but to me this has nothing to do with appreciation or the lack thereof of anybody's career choices. It's simply a discussion about Star Trek, a piece of fiction that follows rules and possibly expresses an author's commentary at the time of writing, nothing more.​​
    2r2u1s2.jpg
    ^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
    "No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
    "A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
    "That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
  • warpangelwarpangel Member Posts: 8,311 Arc User
    angrytarg wrote: »
    warpangel wrote: »
    Some Starfleet officers don't like to call themselves by the word military. That doesn't change the fact that Starfleet nonetheless does match the dictionary definition of the word.

    It has nothing to do with "feelings" and doesn't have to dismiss anything except the misconception that characters can't have their own biases that color their interpretations of things.

    This is not how fictional storytelling works, no matter what RL definition fits anything. A piece of fiction builds a world through their character's expressions. You simply needn't apply "personal bias" to character's dialogue unless it is implied there is a conflict of interest. I tried to avoid to say that a certain group of people struggles with the concept of fiction vs. reality, but maybe that's the underlying problem.
    Fictional storytelling works however the storyteller wants it to work. I'm assuming you're not the one who wrote the relevant stories, so I'm not going to accept you as an authority to dictate what I'm supposed to think about the characters or their dialogue.
  • angrytargangrytarg Member Posts: 9,685 Arc User
    warpangel wrote: »
    Fictional storytelling works however the storyteller wants it to work. I'm assuming you're not the one who wrote the relevant stories, so I'm not going to accept you as an authority to dictate what I'm supposed to think about the characters or their dialogue.

    The storyteller can tell any story they like, but they usually use the same storytelling methods and styles to do so. That's, like, writing. There are classes for that. And stuffs. But meh, at this point you made it clear that there is no point in further discussing the matter and so be it then.

    66SAglD.gif​​
    2r2u1s2.jpg
    ^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
    "No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
    "A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
    "That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
  • artan42artan42 Member Posts: 10,031 Bug Hunter
    warpangel wrote: »
    artan42 wrote: »
    • Normal person: I wonder what Starfleet is?
    • Picard: 'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.'
    • Scotty: '...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.'
    • Normal person: Hmm, but they have a vaguely military structure.
    • Google: Paramilitary; 'organised similarly to a military force'.
    • Normal person: Okay, but they go to war.
    • Google: Militia; 'a military force that is raised from the civil population to supplement a regular army in an emergency'
    • Normal Person: Okay I can see how emergency acts could mean Starfleet has to act as a military.
    Starfleet is not "raised from the civil population to supplement" anything, it is the regular army as commissioned by the Federation government.

    Except as Starfleet personnel are civilians and not military officers the are indeed raised from the civil population. How do we know they're civilians? It's directly stated in dialogue, amongst them are two quotes in the very section you linked.
    jonsills wrote: »
    My first duty station in the USAF was Strategic Air Command Headquarters. I was one of five enlisted personnel in my office; we were vastly outnumbered by commissioned officers. What's more, our unit was never once called upon to commit violence in defense of the United States. I guess that means the Air Force isn't military, and the whole "uniforms and ranks" thing is just a coincidence...

    Umm, I don't know what broken-TRIBBLE dictionary you're using but the definition of a military quoted previously includes Air Force as part of it's definition and trying to be cute bu pretending to not know what the USAF does is a bit childish. The ambiguity here is about Starfleet's role not the USAF's role.

    Perhaps I should have changed the bit in the dialoug in my sketch from talking about Starfleet and militaries having 'captain' in common to something even more silly like...
    • Not normal person: I like space ninjas, I want to see space ninjas in Star Trek
    • Picard: 'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.'
    • Scotty: '...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.'
    • Not normal person: I like space ninjas so the captain of Starfleet's flagship is a liar. and Scotty dosn't count because I hate JJ.
    • Off duty guys: "We're having downtime.
    • Not normal person: SHey, we had downtime in my *insert particular favourite Earth military* as well!
    • Kirk: 'some vague line about feeling like a soldier'.
    • Not normal person: OH MU GODS, Space Ninjas Confirmed !!!!11one!!11.

    Because it never occurred to me that somebody would try out do hyperbole, least of all you.
    jonsills wrote: »
    OTOH, it's obviously very important to some people that Da Future not have military forces of any kind

    Correct, they are the writers and producers of Star Trek. And it's up to you to send them angry emails if Discovery dosn't have enough space ninjas for your liking. Not to go on the internet and pretend they're there.
    angrytarg wrote: »
    So, the whole thing is personal then? I thought it was about Star Trek canon, if you are truly deeply emotional invested I can't really say anything about that. I'm not from a culture that wraps military service in as much pathos as the US-American does, but to me this has nothing to do with appreciation or the lack thereof of anybody's career choices. It's simply a discussion about Star Trek, a piece of fiction that follows rules and possibly expresses an author's commentary at the time of writing, nothing more.​​

    No, that would involve people trying to insert their real lives into the story instead of the other way around. And that's too much like hard work, all that sitting back and allowing somebody else to build a world up for you.
    angrytarg wrote: »
    artan42 wrote: »
    This is the RetroFitted Dorsal Carrier, Design XRT-55D, Commission Date 3125.

    A Carrier inside a Carrier, Carrierception?

    I know where this thing would carry me...

    Vulcan?...
    angrytarg wrote: »
    artan42 wrote: »
    I tried bombarding my work with inverse tachyons but the microbiology department complained it mutated all their work into salamanders.
    It also didn't help much. Next week I'm trying a re-modulation of the labs bayron grid in an attempt to de-polarise the secondary phase emitters. I assume that'll help with speeding up manual titrations, because if it dosn't I'm out of ideas.

    You could try to invert the multimotor reflection of the teriary polaron buffers. This worked quite well on the geology department's new sieve shaker. It bears the risk of creating a tyken's rift and turning their lab into negative space, but what do they complain in the first place.​​

    I can't calibrate the teriary polaron buffers due to interference from the nadion generators in the office. The gods alone know what they need a nadion generator for...
    22762792376_ac7c992b7c_o.png
    Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
    JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.

    #TASforSTO


    '...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
    'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
    'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
    '...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
    'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
    '...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek

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  • angrytargangrytarg Member Posts: 9,685 Arc User
    artan42 wrote: »
    Vulcan?...

    Might feel like a vulcan for sure. I think I wouldn't really have that much fun on Vulcan. They'd point at me and talk.
    I can't calibrate the teriary polaron buffers due to interference from the nadion generators in the office. The gods alone know what they need a nadion generator for...

    Does your work uniform consist of neon coloured spandex, by any chance? The moment your boss requires you to wear helmets with intransparent goggles I'd ask for a vacation...​​
    2r2u1s2.jpg
    ^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
    "No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
    "A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
    "That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
  • markhawkmanmarkhawkman Member Posts: 33,552 Arc User
    edited March 2017
    angrytarg wrote: »
    I thought it was about Star Trek canon,​​
    It is, but a proper discussion of canon can only be had when you don't have people using one or two lines of dialog to dismiss everything they don't like. So, like Jonsills, I think I'm just going to be snarky since Artan's just going to yell louder anytime I say anything that's actually meaningful.

    Or I could just question what definition Artan personally uses for military..... That could be fun too. why? because he doesn't understand how a military chain of command works, otherwise he'd know WHY lower ranking officers(or petty officers) can sometimes order around higher ranking officers.
    -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
    My character Tsin'xing
    Costume_marhawkman_Tsin%27xing_CC_Comic_Page_Blue_488916968.jpg
  • goodscotchgoodscotch Member Posts: 1,680 Arc User
    Would like to see a Vulcan science vessel with some impressive stats.
    klingon-bridge.jpg




  • artan42artan42 Member Posts: 10,031 Bug Hunter
    It is, but a proper discussion of canon can only be had when you don't have people using one or two lines of dialog to dismiss everything they don't like. So, like Jonsills, I think I'm just going to be snarky since Artan's just going to yell louder anytime I say anything that's actually meaningful.

    I try bullet points, people ignore them, I try paragraphs, people misread them, I try metaphor, people misrepresent it. If you can't get your head around multiple different forms of the same information and conclusions drawn from the shows and you'd rather just state your opinion (not based on the shows) as fact you then act surprised when it dosn't fly?

    If people want to use canon to help them along go ahead, but if they want to use their own real life job as some form of killer against the shows themselves then they've missed the point.
    Or I could just question what definition Artan personally uses for military..... That could be fun too.

    Odd, I know I've posted it several times, are you doing that thing where you pretend to not be able to read when the words are inconvenient to you?
    why? because he doesn't understand how a military chain of command works, otherwise he'd know WHY lower ranking officers(or petty officers) can sometimes order around higher ranking officers.

    Oh, are they often heads of departments? Funny, you think that'd come up in the 20 odd years of ex-military types bitching about O'Brian then would't you? Seems nobody told the internet.
    22762792376_ac7c992b7c_o.png
    Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
    JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.

    #TASforSTO


    '...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
    'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
    'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
    '...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
    'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
    '...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek

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  • warpangelwarpangel Member Posts: 8,311 Arc User
    angrytarg wrote: »
    I thought it was about Star Trek canon,​​
    It is, but a proper discussion of canon can only be had when you don't have people using one or two lines of dialog to dismiss everything they don't like. So, like Jonsills, I think I'm just going to be snarky since Artan's just going to yell louder anytime I say anything that's actually meaningful.
    Yeah, that sounds about right.

    Snark it is, then.
  • markhawkmanmarkhawkman Member Posts: 33,552 Arc User
    artan42 wrote: »
    It is, but a proper discussion of canon can only be had when you don't have people using one or two lines of dialog to dismiss everything they don't like. So, like Jonsills, I think I'm just going to be snarky since Artan's just going to yell louder anytime I say anything that's actually meaningful.
    I try bullet points, people ignore them, I try paragraphs, people misread them, I try metaphor, people misrepresent it. If you can't get your head around multiple different forms of the same information and conclusions drawn from the shows and you'd rather just state your opinion (not based on the shows) as fact you then act surprised when it dosn't fly?

    If people want to use canon to help them along go ahead, but if they want to use their own real life job as some form of killer against the shows themselves then they've missed the point.
    And there you go pretending people haven't posted evidence supporting their views. See, I DID base my POV on information presented in the shows, and presented the evidence for it several times.
    Or I could just question what definition Artan personally uses for military..... That could be fun too.
    Odd, I know I've posted it several times, are you doing that thing where you pretend to not be able to read when the words are inconvenient to you?
    really? if that was true surely you could have simply copied what you said before instead of being obnoxious and insulting.
    why? because he doesn't understand how a military chain of command works, otherwise he'd know WHY lower ranking officers(or petty officers) can sometimes order around higher ranking officers.
    Oh, are they often heads of departments? Funny, you think that'd come up in the 20 odd years of ex-military types bitching about O'Brian then would't you? Seems nobody told the internet.
    it's simple, in the real world, there is a difference between rank and authority. Authority is what determines who is in charge. Since you claim to like examples....

    Let's say that captain White has put Lt Green in charge of ensuring that cargo stored in the forward cargo bays is properly secured and stowed neatly. If a higher ranking officer needs to store something in the forward cargo bay then they have to follow whatever instructions Lt Green gives them. They don't have the authority to countermand his orders, since Capt White assigned that authority to Lt Green. If they try to circumvent that, then they'll be answering to Capt White.

    Is that simple enough for you?
    -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
    My character Tsin'xing
    Costume_marhawkman_Tsin%27xing_CC_Comic_Page_Blue_488916968.jpg
  • kodachikunokodachikuno Member Posts: 5,998 Arc User1
    Alas poor topic, I knew it well Horatio.....
    tumblr_mr1jc2hq2T1rzu2xzo1_400.gif
    tacofangs wrote: »
    STO isn't canon, and neither are any of the books.
  • wakerobertswakeroberts Member Posts: 99 Arc User
    The term civilian is not only used to differentiate between military and non-military personnel. It is also used with other uniformed services such as law enforcement, merchant marine, public health service, etc.

    The term militia is used for a part-time, non-professional force. Though the term "military" may not completely fit the role Starfleet performs, I'm sure we can all agree that Starfleet personnel are full time professionals that do not have any other employers or occupations than being members of Starfleet.
  • jonsillsjonsills Member Posts: 8,307 Arc User
    Let's say that captain White has put Lt Green in charge of ensuring that cargo stored in the forward cargo bays is properly secured and stowed neatly. If a higher ranking officer needs to store something in the forward cargo bay then they have to follow whatever instructions Lt Green gives them. They don't have the authority to countermand his orders, since Capt White assigned that authority to Lt Green. If they try to circumvent that, then they'll be answering to Capt White.

    Is that simple enough for you?
    Even simpler - the loadmaster is more likely to be Chief Petty Officer Brown. If Lt. Green needs to get something out of the cargo bay because Commander Grey wants it, he has to go through CPO Brown, who has authority over that matter. And if shifting the load enough to get the item out will unbalance the load dangerously (usually only a problem in aircraft, but still), CPO Brown has the authority to refuse to permit Lt. Green or Crd. Grey to interfere with his cargo as it might endanger the ship. It would require an order from Capt. White to override the CPO, and even then Brown might insist the orders be put in writing (which can be enough to cause even the Captain to reconsider whether it's that important).

    A wise officer will never ignore the words of an enlisted man with more experience than he has (and I guarantee CPO Brown has been in longer than Lt. Green, and possibly longer than Cdr. Grey). And while anything that enlisted man says is couched as if it were a suggestion, with all due respect sir, said wise officer will probably choose to take that as an order.
    "Science teaches us to expect -- demand -- more than just eerie mysteries. What use is a puzzle that can't be solved? Patience is fine, but I'm not going to stop asking the universe to make sense!"

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  • lowy1lowy1 Member Posts: 964 Arc User
    edited March 2017
    lowy1 wrote: »
    Even modern militaries today execute more than just warfare. They conduct humanitarian relief, disaster response, teach, diplomacy etc.

    real-world military: Primary mission - defense
    Secondary mission - humanitarian relief, disaster response, teach, diplomacy etc.

    Starfleet: Primary mission - humanitarian relief, disaster response, teach, diplomacy etc.
    Secondary mission - defense

    that distinction is why starfleet isn't a military​​

    You also just described what the United Nations currently does. Which of course the role is fulfilled by militaries.
    HzLLhLB.gif

  • angrytargangrytarg Member Posts: 9,685 Arc User
    edited March 2017
    lowy1 wrote: »
    You also just described what the United Nations currently does. Which of course the role is fulfilled by militaries.

    The UFP is in a lot of ways the idealized version of the UN. As such, Starfleet is, aside from being a Exploration agency and the like, comparable to UN peace keepers or sometimes peace enforcers. While IRL these functions are fulfilled by militaries of it's members (because, again IRL nations TRIBBLE about losing "power" in a international organization) the original UN concept planned for establishing permanent international units. UN peacekeepers would have been a permanent entity which would have been armed and organized like a military, yet legally they wouldn't be one as they were part of a international organization and as such would not be recognized by the law of war. As such, the characteristic as a peacekeeping force which can support law enforcement and even civilian administration if necessary applies to Starfleet - in it's armed function - much better than defining it as a military of a single nation. You also have to acknowledge the original intend behind inventing the UFP for Star Trek which only was truly formulated when TNG came around.​​
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    ^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
    "No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
    "A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
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  • fruitvendor12fruitvendor12 Member Posts: 581 Arc User
    angrytarg wrote: »
    artan42 wrote: »
    Oh come on. Try a few double entendres, they're more fun.

    No seriously, I think it's a vibrant design, nothing more. It's pulsing with simple, yet effective sophisticated engineering. I'm fairly certain it could satisfy one's needs in term of starship design.​​

    "Fully functional..."
  • artan42artan42 Member Posts: 10,031 Bug Hunter
    I still want to know why Picard and Scotty are liars. I mean it's obvious they know they work in a paramilitary organised civilian exploration organisation that acts as a militia in wartime. But they only work in said organisation and represent it in an official capacity. What reason would they have to tell the truth and plainly explain in black and white terms the exact nature of Starfleet?

    I reiterate my previous point but with no 40% less snark (and more general) because it seems to have brought back the same post blind people who don't accept the authority of CBS so are unlikely to accept the authority of Picard.
    • Normal person: I wonder what Starfleet is?
    • Picard: 'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.'
    • Scotty: '...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.'
    • Normal person: Hmm, but they have a vaguely military structure.
    • Google: Paramilitary; 'organised similarly to a military force'.
    • Normal person: Okay, but they go to war.
    • Google: Militia; 'a military force that is raised from the civil population to supplement a regular army in an emergency'
    • Normal Person: Okay I can see how emergency acts could mean Starfleet has to act as a military.
    • Normal Person: I conclude Starfleet is organised in a similar manner to a military as with organisations like certain police forces and can be drafted into service as a defence force in war, but an organisation who's primary purpose is exploration, diplomacy, and colonisation as spelt out in black and white for me.

    • Not normal person: I see guns on spaceships in Star Trek I'm calling military
    • Picard: 'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.'
    • Scotty: '...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.'
    • Not normal person: I'm dismissing these statements out of had because I can still see guns.
    • Picard's mission: 'Ongoing mission to seek out new life and new civilisations.
    • Not normal person: Well that's certainly not the motto of any military I've come across, but hey, in peacetime my ship did some oceanographic surveying.
    • Kirk: 'Some vague line about feeling like a soldier'. Some vaguely military like terms already accounted for under 'paramilitary' but that we're going to pretend aren't because we've run out of evidence.
    • Not normal person: Well Picard is a liar as I don't agree with the direction of TNG series 1 and Scotty is a liar because I hate ID and I can't be bring myself to agree that 'paramilitary' and 'militia' fit Starfleet to a T, so I conclude that Starfleet is a military, which is convenient as that's what I thought before even asking the question and all it took was directly contradicting the show to do so.


    I wonder how the plot of Beyond would have gone if Starfleet were a military? Even as it stands, as it's not, I wonder what Krell would make of Section 31 as they're essentially the closest Starfleet comes to a fully realised military because I can't imagine Section 31 having an off switch.​​
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    '...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
    'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
    'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
    '...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
    'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
    '...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek

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  • markhawkmanmarkhawkman Member Posts: 33,552 Arc User
    Unh huh... so the real world explanation of "the writers contradicted themselves repeatedly" isn't good enough I guess?
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  • warpangelwarpangel Member Posts: 8,311 Arc User
    Unh huh... so the real world explanation of "the writers contradicted themselves repeatedly" isn't good enough I guess?
    Of course not. Everything that was ever said on screen is 100% absolute indisputable truth. Except the things the poster in question doesn't like, of course. :p
  • wakerobertswakeroberts Member Posts: 99 Arc User
    Kevin Costner had a line in the movie "The Guardian", which is a very good movie by the way. If you have not seen it, I would recommend it. Costner's line compared the Coast Guard to the Navy. He said "They think they're better than us because they're combat oriented." And there I think is an excellent term to describe Starfleet.

    Starfleet is based on the Coast Guard. We know this. It is a fact.

    Starfleet is not combat oriented, though it is an armed service.

    Members of the Coast Guard are not civilians. Their primarily non-combat role, does not change this.

    Starfleet is a uniformed service, commissioned by the Federation Council. It is not a civilian service. It is also "not a military organization." The two concepts are NOT mutually exclusive. (i.e. not military=civilian/not civilian=military)

    Starfleet is a full time organization. Starfleet is not activated and deactivated. Starfleet performs it's function every day of the year whether it's monitoring the Romulan Neutral Zone, mediating a trade dispute, surveying a nebula, or rerouting your subspace message to your sister Peggy.

    The occupation of Starfleet personnel, commissioned and enlisted, is to serve Starfleet.

    A militia, by it's definition, is a part time organization, whose member's have other primary occupations. As much as Starfleet is not a military organization, Starfleet is not a militia.

  • angrytargangrytarg Member Posts: 9,685 Arc User
    I agree that militia is probably not a good term to describe Stafleet's defence function, after all the officers are full time starfleet. It is however not a fact that Starfleet is based on the coastguard @wakeroberts - there is a quote outlying that Rodenberry intented Starfleet to be as militarized as "(...) say, the coast guard (...)" - it was just an example. Functionally, as we have covered multiple times already, Starfleet's duties encompass most of what the US coast guard does you could say inlcuding it's military function. Since the IP is crystal clear on the point that Starfleet is not a military organization but a fusion of civilian and military services I do come to the conclusion that the comparison to the never realized standing UN peacekeeping armed service would be the closest we have int erms of RL comparisons for their military function which, as I outlined above, would not be a military legally and probably spiritually as well since relief and law enforcement/peacekeeping comes first, peace enforcement later in the UN charta. However, there is no direct analogy to starfleet as it is a fictional organization of a civilization existing a few centuries ahead of our time - if people are really unable to take fiction as fiction and are convinced that somehow their own life is transferable to a story set in the far away future and their life overwrites what the story tells them so be it. Fictional concepts aren't easy to grasp for everyone. I came to believe that right now, most people arguing a certain way have a reputation/ego issue with the notion of declaring Starfleet not military to the point they feel personally attacked - for those, the quote from the movie you brought might be worthwhile to check however accurate it may be I can't say. Where I'm from, as I mentioned earlier, military service is simply a job and a career, not a lifestyle choice and the coast guard is a combined service of four civilian authorities - there is life outside the US and while Star Trek is a US show it tells a story of a united earth and even united interplanetary federation. It shouldn't be too hard to imagine that things might work a bit different in the future.

    EDIT:
    warpangel wrote: »
    Of course not. Everything that was ever said on screen is 100% absolute indisputable truth. Except the things the poster in question doesn't like, of course. :p

    I think it's futile to reply to you as you already stated you will only use snark to disrupt a topic (we highjacked in the first place, mind you) instead of discussing, but your snark is misplaced. Nobody said that, you're simply creating strawpeople now. The writing in star Trek does contradict itself a few times - the point of Starfleet's non-military nature however hasn't been contradicted. Questioned, yes, but ultimately it endured all incarnations of the franchise with the latest movie making it a central plot point ffs. There are arguments pro and contra for sure and you are free to disagree, but if your argument is based on saying "it's badly written" (even if true, it IS written this way, and you are not in a position to change that) or "the characters lie" (with no cinematic clue that they did) you don't have a safe stance on the issue. You know a lot about us mlitary ranks, but that does neither change Star Trek's writing nor is it really relevant.

    "Fully functional..."

    One of the most cringeworthy moments in Star Trek aside, it probably is. I still prefer the bullwark though pig-4.gif​​
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    ^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
    "No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
    "A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
    "That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
  • markhawkmanmarkhawkman Member Posts: 33,552 Arc User
    angrytarg wrote: »
    warpangel wrote: »
    Of course not. Everything that was ever said on screen is 100% absolute indisputable truth. Except the things the poster in question doesn't like, of course. :p
    I think it's futile to reply to you as you already stated you will only use snark to disrupt a topic (we highjacked in the first place, mind you) instead of discussing, but your snark is misplaced. Nobody said that, you're simply creating strawpeople now. The writing in star Trek does contradict itself a few times - the point of Starfleet's non-military nature however hasn't been contradicted. Questioned, yes, but ultimately it endured all incarnations of the franchise with the latest movie making it a central plot point ffs. There are arguments pro and contra for sure and you are free to disagree, but if your argument is based on saying "it's badly written" (even if true, it IS written this way, and you are not in a position to change that) or "the characters lie" (with no cinematic clue that they did) you don't have a safe stance on the issue. You know a lot about us mlitary ranks, but that does neither change Star Trek's writing nor is it really relevant.
    The problem with this approach is that, as noted several times previously in the thread, it's written several different ways in various appearances. Hmmm If only I had the time to rewatch every ep and make a list of which times Starfleet is portrayed as military vs portrayed as non-military....
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  • mustrumridcully0mustrumridcully0 Member Posts: 12,280 Arc User
    I wonder, are the Jedi a military force?
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