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  • angrytargangrytarg Member Posts: 9,685 Arc User
    edited March 2017
    lowy1 wrote: »
    It is a military. However very decentralized with ship captains having command authority. Civilians do not wage war against the Iconians. Plus I pretty sure MACO and TF Omega validate it as well....Unless people think it is similar to the militant wing of the Salvation Army...

    The debate is about ST canon at this point, STO is another animal entirely pig-2.gif (Canonically, MACO was disbanded and asorbed into Starfleet after the Federation was founded and Starfleet is not a military organization which didn't sit well with some, uhm, military personnel unable to "adapt" which was the plot of the latest Star Trek movie).​​
    2r2u1s2.jpg
    ^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
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    "A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
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  • artan42artan42 Member Posts: 10,032 Bug Hunter
    lowy1 wrote: »
    It is a military. However very decentralized with ship captains having command authority. Civilians do not wage war against the Iconians. Plus I pretty sure MACO and TF Omega validate it as well....Unless people think it is similar to the militant wing of the Salvation Army...

    Oh in the grim dark STO future where there is only war, yes it's without doubt a military, it has the MACO, the Avenger/Arbiter (i.e. warship Voyager) and Typhoon battleruisers, Omega Force, Counter Command, and an out of control DPS adiction.

    Real Starfleet does not have that. It disbanded MACO when it joined (or rather formed) the Federation and it does not build war ships (the Defiant and Dreadnought are the single exceptions). It is responsible for the Federations defence and can protect it's interest through instigation of conflict but it's not a military. That's made explicitly clear by several direct statements made by its personnel over all series and films.
    22762792376_ac7c992b7c_o.png
    Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
    JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.

    #TASforSTO


    '...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
    'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
    'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
    '...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
    'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
    '...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek

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  • lowy1lowy1 Member Posts: 964 Arc User
    Maybe paramilitary is a better reference. Regardless of what characters said in shows, UFP is organized like a military and handle functions associated with a military. They are organized by governments and even though they are not warships, they have more than enough firepower to defend themselves or execute offensive operations.

    Even modern militaries today execute more than just warfare. They conduct humanitarian relief, disaster response, teach, diplomacy etc.
    HzLLhLB.gif

  • artan42artan42 Member Posts: 10,032 Bug Hunter
    lowy1 wrote: »
    Maybe paramilitary is a better reference. Regardless of what characters said in shows, UFP is organized like a military and handle functions associated with a military. They are organized by governments and even though they are not warships, they have more than enough firepower to defend themselves or execute offensive operations.

    Even modern militaries today execute more than just warfare. They conduct humanitarian relief, disaster response, teach, diplomacy etc.

    It's not organised like a military. It's organised like every other large organisation that has a large number of people, assets, vehicles, etc. Police forces, fire services, coast guards, merchant navies etc. are all organised in similar ways to militaries.

    Starfleet is a militia. If the Federation is under attack they are its defence. When it's not under attack they are back to business as usual. Militaries that are not at war are always preparing for the next, that's their job. Their humanitarian relief or disaster response efforts are secondary to their military purpose.

    What do you mean 'Regardless of what characters said in shows'? They are members of said organisation and their opinion (i.e. that of the writers) is far more valid that some fans on the internet wittering.​​
    22762792376_ac7c992b7c_o.png
    Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
    JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.

    #TASforSTO


    '...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
    'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
    'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
    '...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
    'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
    '...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek

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  • somtaawkharsomtaawkhar Member Posts: 5,749 Arc User
    artan42 wrote: »
    It's not organised like a military.​​
    Except it is, from everything regarding ranks, to command structure, and court martials.

    Starfleet is, top to bottom, a military organization in regards to how it is set up, and operates.
  • risian4risian4 Member Posts: 3,707 Arc User
    lowy1 wrote: »
    If the boff layout is desirable, the ship could be a flying piece of doo doo and it would be popular. If the ship has a desirable ship trait, it will be popular. Even if it has a nice console or weapon unlock it would be popular. This is what they need to focus on now since they cashed in on the iconic Enterprises (TOS and JJ Trek) and NX01 refit already. The Andorran ships would still be popular if you could put the wing cannons on another ship and the blue phasers came with anything other than acc.

    I disagree. I fly my ships because I like their looks. Boff lay-out and consoles are of secondary concern (to some degree of course, not in an absolute sense), since almost every ship can work fine.
  • warpangelwarpangel Member Posts: 8,311 Arc User
    Just because Starfleet doesn't call them warships, doesn't mean they aren't.
  • artan42artan42 Member Posts: 10,032 Bug Hunter
    edited March 2017
    artan42 wrote: »
    It's not organised like a military.
    Except it is, from everything regarding ranks, to command structure, and court martials.

    Starfleet is, top to bottom, a military organization in regards to how it is set up, and operates.

    Except it's not. All the bitching people make about how lax or deregulated things are in Starfleet and how that would never fly in their *insert particular favourite Earth military*?

    How you have Petty Officers out ranking lieutenants? How you can happily be first officer for decades turning down at least three offers of command and not hurt your career? How you can have field commissioned cadets out ranking properly commissioned ensigns? How you can have admirals in personal command of their own ships? How you can go straight from officer cadet to captain? Children as acting ensigns? How you can tell admirals to stuff it and not suffer any consequences? How you can have ships crewed exclusively by officers? How you can have up to 3 captains on-board? That's not even getting into Starfleets lack of saluting and marching codes etc., all that silly pomp and ceremony militaries use? Starfleet dosn't. They barely stand to attention.

    As for the tired court martial argument. Every organisation has some sort of tribunal. Yes they could call it the internal disciplinary committee if they wanted to, but they could also call the rank of admiral the chief commissioner if they wanted, it dosn't make the admiral a military officer any more than calling a police captain in the American police captain means they are a military officer. It's backdrop and trappings, not structure.
    warpangel wrote: »
    Just because Starfleet doesn't call them warships, doesn't mean they aren't.

    Correct. The fact they are exploration vessels makes them not warships.​​
    22762792376_ac7c992b7c_o.png
    Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
    JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.

    #TASforSTO


    '...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
    'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
    'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
    '...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
    'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
    '...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek

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  • lowy1lowy1 Member Posts: 964 Arc User
    edited March 2017
    Some of You need to read the definition of military and paramilitary. You will see that Starfleet has characteristics of both. While their primary mission isn't warfare or training for war, star fleet and star fleet alone is responsible for defending federation interests.

    Also, last I checked ceos do not call themselves Fleet Admiral.

    Edited for Accuracy.
    Post edited by lowy1 on
    HzLLhLB.gif

  • artan42artan42 Member Posts: 10,032 Bug Hunter
    lowy1 wrote: »
    Some of You need to read the definition of military and paramilitary. You will see that UFP has characteristics of both. While their primary mission isn't warfare or training for war, star fleet and star fleet alone is responsible for defending federation interests.

    Also, last I checked ceos do not call themselves Fleet Admiral.

    Starfleet not the UFP, that's the government.

    You can't have the characteristics of both a military and a paramilitary as the definition of the latter includes having features of a military, that's a circular definition. Starfleet is a paramilitary militia when it needs to be, the only people disputing that are those who think it's a pure military in direct opposition to the evidence presented by the shows and films.

    Also, who said CEOs call themselves fleet admirals? I've Ctrl+F'd it and find no result other than you. You seem to be attacking a baseless straw-man in a very silly manner.

    And Starfleet is one word.​​
    22762792376_ac7c992b7c_o.png
    Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
    JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.

    #TASforSTO


    '...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
    'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
    'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
    '...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
    'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
    '...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek

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  • risian4risian4 Member Posts: 3,707 Arc User
    edited March 2017
    Guys it really doesn't matter whether Starfleet is a military organisation or not. The game itself and various release blogs state that member species have kept producing and offering their ships to Starfleet. See the descriptions of the Caitian Atrox and the Xindi ships for just a few other examples.

    If they can keep their older designs up to date, they can design new hulls as well as that is relatively easy.

    The argument that member species would only have police, trade and medical ships is simply not true for this game as least - we see Kumari's fighting alongside the players in Undine Assault for example.
    And strictly speaking, it's an irrelevant discussion as, gameplay-wise, the ships we're talking about are perfectly capable of combat and there's no reason why Cryptic couldn't decide to create a new Vulcan design.

    So instead of derailing the thread with this old discussion on Starfleet's nature, perhaps we should go back to the original topic: more Vulcan ships. I assume you all know how to create your own thread if you do wish to discuss other matters.
  • risian4risian4 Member Posts: 3,707 Arc User
    edited March 2017
    I also want to come back to my own comment where I said that stats are of secondary concern to me. This may not be true for others of course.
    If you look at the D'Kyr and compare that to the Nebula or Vesta, then there's little reason to buy the outdated D'Kyr if performance is what you're looking for. A T6 version would therefore be nice.

    I'm sure it would sell. Vulcans are the only really popular species in the game besides Humans for the Federation faction. If they made a cruiser, escort and new science variant, I think it would be pretty popular.

    I also like the suggestion to make the next event ship a Vulcan one - or make it a Vulcan-other species hybrid, some special Alliance-project.
  • nikeixnikeix Member Posts: 3,972 Arc User
    Starfleet is the product of a blissful fantasy of an "enlightened" future that exists as a platform for telling stories - the writers don't even TRY to present the coherent universe... Its just fans trying to cobble one together out of the mismatched scraps. It's only rules are "what story do I want to tell today?" To the point you have a war-minded captain having to explain a bluff to Will Riker... the ships arch-master of poker. Let me say that again: someone had to explain BLUFFING to Will Riker.

    Do they say "we're not a military" despite being obviously a military? Sure. Is the notion that any interstellar government attacked as often as the Federation wouldn't have a military INSANE? Sure. Is Star Trek not a setting at all, but rather a framework for telling stories than are charming on their own but make no damn sense in a shared context? Absolutely. They make mind boggling discoveries on a bi-weekly basis and FORGET EVERYTHING the very next week. All done with a 60's sensibility about any sort of personal augmentation being the stuff of nightmares.
  • lianthelialianthelia Member Posts: 6,734 Arc User
    artan42 wrote: »
    jonsills wrote: »
    They operate under a strict rank structure, using a military law that is considered different from civilian law and includes courts-martial....


    Strict? Lackadaisical is far closer to the truth. They utilise the broadest possible structure to keep track of a large number of trained profesionals. It's not even slightly strict from nonlinear promotions to dress code.

    It's a exploration and humanitarian amarda with big guns and no alternative.

    Yes it is strict...they don't *play* officers...just because Picard is a friendly person and developed close relationships with his officers it doesn't mean that is how Starfleet functions as a whole...even with how close they were they didn't call him Jean Luc...
    risian4 wrote: »
    I also want to come back to my own comment where I said that stats are of secondary concern to me. This may not be true for others of course.
    If you look at the D'Kyr and compare that to the Nebula or Vesta, then there's little reason to buy the outdated D'Kyr if performance is what you're looking for. A T6 version would therefore be nice.

    I'm sure it would sell. Vulcans are the only really popular species in the game besides Humans for the Federation faction. If they made a cruiser, escort and new science variant, I think it would be pretty popular.

    I also like the suggestion to make the next event ship a Vulcan one - or make it a Vulcan-other species hybrid, some special Alliance-project.

    I think you're highly over-valuing Vulcans...calling them the only other popular race in the game besides Humans is a stretch to say the least.

    Vulcan ship designs aren't exactly popping...I mean the Andorian Escort was a cool looking ship...what we've seen of Vulcan ships...they're rather boring.

    Long, pointy, flat, and sometimes very....lets say *unflattering* shades of brown. While the race and the ships have fans...I think you've over-estimating the following a bit.
    #WithoutRespectWeReject
  • risian4risian4 Member Posts: 3,707 Arc User
    No I'm not over-estimating them. At one time there were almost as many Vulcan characters as there were in the entire KDF faction combined. After humans and aliens, they were the single most popular species.

    That was two years ago, with the Agents of Yesterday expansion there's probably even more of them now.

    http://www.arcgames.com/en/games/star-trek-online/news/detail/9065123-star-trek-online-5-year-anniversary-infographic
  • risian4risian4 Member Posts: 3,707 Arc User
    And what the hell... why did I keep receiving the comment that my 'comment will be posted once it is approved' when I tried to quote? Had to rewrite my post three times.
  • kodachikunokodachikuno Member Posts: 5,998 Arc User1
    I love the 'its a military' debate every time.... Despite the on screen "canon" statements from TOS onward that it is NOT a military people still want to argue that it is.

    Just because it looks, acts, and sometimes feels like a military doesn't mean it is. Don't believe ask them yourself! lol
    tumblr_mr1jc2hq2T1rzu2xzo1_400.gif
    tacofangs wrote: »
    STO isn't canon, and neither are any of the books.
  • lowy1lowy1 Member Posts: 964 Arc User
    artan42 wrote: »
    lowy1 wrote: »
    Maybe paramilitary is a better reference. Regardless of what characters said in shows, UFP is organized like a military and handle functions associated with a military. They are organized by governments and even though they are not warships, they have more than enough firepower to defend themselves or execute offensive operations.

    Even modern militaries today execute more than just warfare. They conduct humanitarian relief, disaster response, teach, diplomacy etc.

    It's not organised like a military. It's organised like every other large organisation that has a large number of people, assets, vehicles, etc. Police forces, fire services, coast guards, merchant navies etc. are all organised in similar ways to militaries.

    Starfleet is a militia. If the Federation is under attack they are its defence. When it's not under attack they are back to business as usual. Militaries that are not at war are always preparing for the next, that's their job. Their humanitarian relief or disaster response efforts are secondary to their military purpose.

    What do you mean 'Regardless of what characters said in shows'? They are members of said organisation and their opinion (i.e. that of the writers) is far more valid that some fans on the internet wittering.​​

    You are correct on UFP, my mistake, but all of those above organizations you stated are paramilitary. Even the Coast Guard, in the U.S. falls under the Department of Defense during wartime. Anything with a rank structure or is organized in a military styled hierarchy type of structure is paramilitary. Id doesn't mean they are military or function as one, they are just organized as one.

    Also, it's called being sarcastic on CEOS (or leaders of large organizations) calling themselves Fleet Admiral. As in Tim Cook, the CEO of Apple, doesn't call himself Fleet Admiral Cook.

    HzLLhLB.gif

  • warpangelwarpangel Member Posts: 8,311 Arc User
    I love the 'its a military' debate every time.... Despite the on screen "canon" statements from TOS onward that it is NOT a military people still want to argue that it is.

    Just because it looks, acts, and sometimes feels like a military doesn't mean it is. Don't believe ask them yourself! lol
    Just because they say they're not a military, doesn't mean they're not.

    Starfleet likes to pretend it's not a military, even though it obviously is. It likes to pretend it's ships are not built for war (that's why Fed tactical ships have the label "escort" in the game, it's Starfleet-ese for warship according to Sisko), even though they obviously are.

    It's called lying.
  • crypticarmsmancrypticarmsman Member Posts: 3,192 Arc User
    angrytarg wrote: »
    avoozuul wrote: »
    Oh man, that ship design.

    It looks... efficient pig-3.gif​​

    It looks like a "3-Ring" circus. ;)
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  • ash352ash352 Member Posts: 231 Arc User
    I love the 'its a military' debate every time.... Despite the on screen "canon" statements from TOS onward that it is NOT a military people still want to argue that it is.

    Just because it looks, acts, and sometimes feels like a military doesn't mean it is. Don't believe ask them yourself! lol

    Sure, because something that uses military ranks, military functionality, military disciplinary actions, and use starships with more weapons than is strictly necessary for actual defense is totally not a military because they say they aren't. That would be like me saying, "I'm not a human. I know I look like one, act like one, and sound like one but I'm totally NOT a human." They're the military branch operating under the main organization of the Federation. Similar to how the actual military today operate under their countries governments.

    The reason they say they're not a military is because you don't want to spread out as Starfleet is and outright say you're a military organization. That sends anyone you come into contact with into a panic. They're primary focus is exploration, yes, but that doesn't change the fact that they are at their core a military organization.
  • kodachikunokodachikuno Member Posts: 5,998 Arc User1
    edited March 2017
    ash352 wrote: »
    I love the 'its a military' debate every time.... Despite the on screen "canon" statements from TOS onward that it is NOT a military people still want to argue that it is.

    Just because it looks, acts, and sometimes feels like a military doesn't mean it is. Don't believe ask them yourself! lol

    Sure, because something that uses military ranks, military functionality, military disciplinary actions, and use starships with more weapons than is strictly necessary for actual defense is totally not a military because they say they aren't. That would be like me saying, "I'm not a human. I know I look like one, act like one, and sound like one but I'm totally NOT a human." They're the military branch operating under the main organization of the Federation. Similar to how the actual military today operate under their countries governments.

    The reason they say they're not a military is because you don't want to spread out as Starfleet is and outright say you're a military organization. That sends anyone you come into contact with into a panic. They're primary focus is exploration, yes, but that doesn't change the fact that they are at their core a military organization.

    inb4someone calls in the US Coast Guard example :P

    edit:
    let me point out I'm in agreement that it IS a military, and one very aggressively out to assimilate everyone/everything weather they want to or not. And then force them into the UFP's morality and thinking. For all their talk of diversity and differences they really HATE anyone that has a different opinion.
    tumblr_mr1jc2hq2T1rzu2xzo1_400.gif
    tacofangs wrote: »
    STO isn't canon, and neither are any of the books.
  • shadowfang240shadowfang240 Member Posts: 30,948 Arc User
    lowy1 wrote: »
    Even modern militaries today execute more than just warfare. They conduct humanitarian relief, disaster response, teach, diplomacy etc.

    real-world military: Primary mission - defense
    Secondary mission - humanitarian relief, disaster response, teach, diplomacy etc.

    Starfleet: Primary mission - humanitarian relief, disaster response, teach, diplomacy etc.
    Secondary mission - defense

    that distinction is why starfleet isn't a military​​
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  • jonsillsjonsills Member Posts: 8,308 Arc User
    Artan, at this point I think it's necessary to ask you to define what "military" means to you.

    Because at this point, we're just yelling "Yes they are", "No they're not" at each other - and as the Argument Clinic sketch pointed out, an argument is more than just saying "No it isn't." ("Yes, it is!" "No, it isn't!")
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  • markhawkmanmarkhawkman Member Posts: 33,556 Arc User
    warpangel wrote: »
    Just because Starfleet doesn't call them warships, doesn't mean they aren't.
    Yeah, the funny part about the debates on whether Starfleet is or isn't a military is that the veracity of the claims it isn't were questioned on screen. :p
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  • markhawkmanmarkhawkman Member Posts: 33,556 Arc User
    Well, we got T6 Gorn ships and a T6 Nausicaan ship. I'd love to see T6 Orion, Vulcan, Andorian, and at last Tellarite ships.
    Orion is reasonably likely. probably as a flight deck cruiser, since that's what the T5 ship is.
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  • jonsillsjonsills Member Posts: 8,308 Arc User
    edited March 2017
    warpangel wrote: »
    Just because Starfleet doesn't call them warships, doesn't mean they aren't.
    Yeah, the funny part about the debates on whether Starfleet is or isn't a military is that the veracity of the claims it isn't were questioned on screen. :p
    And nobody in my kid's 5th-grade class ever questions the idea that they don't really need to go to school, but that doesn't make it true. Like I said, if it waddles like a duck and it quacks like a duck, is it really a rational position to insist that it's a sparrow?

    And in a galaxy as filled with hostile life forms as the Star Trek Milky Way, why is it a bad thing to have a military?
    "Science teaches us to expect -- demand -- more than just eerie mysteries. What use is a puzzle that can't be solved? Patience is fine, but I'm not going to stop asking the universe to make sense!"

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  • shadowfang240shadowfang240 Member Posts: 30,948 Arc User
    because enlightened cultures don't need weapons when they can talk their way out of anything, which was gene's rationale for the federation - and then he gave a space cowboy a ship armed with phasers, photon torpedoes (that can obliterate a city with just one, mind you) and all manner of technobabble that can easily be utilized as a makeshift weapon​​
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  • wakerobertswakeroberts Member Posts: 99 Arc User
    This is a debate that has continued for years and will continue long after I post in this thread.

    We know that Gene Roddenberry conceived Starfleet to be akin to the US Coast Guard in function. Yes, it is stated plainly by Captain Picard that "Starfleet is not a military organization." Yet, Captain Kirk also states that "I'm a soldier, not a diplomat." Kirk also characterizes Starfleet as a "combined service." And there I think is the best definition for Starfleet, it is the "Armed Service" of the Federation. It is charged with a combined defense, scientific, intelligence, humanitarian, law enforcement, diplomatic, exploratory mandate. Starfleet is the ultimate amalgamation of most of the executive functions of government. It might be that the only thing that Starfleet doesn't do is take the census!

    Starfleet is not a militia. A militia, by it's definition is not a professional service. A militia's members, have other occupations and employers that are the primary focus of their life pursuits. Starfleet is comprised entirely of full time, professional, Starfleet personnel. Even the enlisted Starfleet personnel, which make up the bulk of Starfleet's manpower, are still full time Starfleet during their enlistments.

    To sum up, the term military is too restrictive to encompass all the roles that Starfleet fills. It is but one of it's functions. Starfleet is truly a "Combined Armed Service."
  • shadowfang240shadowfang240 Member Posts: 30,948 Arc User
    Starfleet is truly a "Combined Armed Service."

    the canon term you're looking for is 'Peacekeeping and Humanitarian Armada'​​
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    "It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch."

    How Game Devs SHOULD be interacted with:
    http://askagamedev.tumblr.com/post/157238832062/i-remember-your-52080-rule-and-it-was-an-awesome

    "Curiosity is bad! It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed...and more importantly, it makes you poor!"

    "Beware of dog. Or possibly, enhanced, psycho-addicted, cybernetically-enhanced nightstalker death-dealing dog from hell."
    Passion and Serenity are one.
    I gain power by understanding both.
    In the chaos of their battle, I bring order.
    I am a shadow, darkness born from light.
    The Force is united within me.

    Stand with Star Trek: The Animated Series content for STO! #TASforSTO
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