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Do you want a PvE/PvP separation?
dgdolph
Member Posts: 592 Arc User
We all know that a lot of skills, ships and items are useless in PvE but can be overpowered in PvP at the same time (universal consoles for example). If cryptic seperated both modes, they could easily balance both in different ways resulting in a lot of new possible strategies and builds in any game mode.
Post edited by dgdolph on
Do you want a PvE/PvP separation? 186 votes
Yes.
46%
87 votes
No.
16%
30 votes
I want the removal of PvP.
22%
42 votes
I don't care.
14%
27 votes
0
Comments
The proposed separation isn´t explained very well. If it´s just changing the functionality of some powers and consoles, fine. I remember Guild Wars did something like that many years ago. But I don´t see how you could possibly change a whole ship.
And btw, "less effective" does not equal "useless". At least not everytime.
That's why I wrote "a lot" and not "all"
why is my post count gone
City of Heroes did separation, it made PvP even less fun.. I actually enjoyed the PvP up until that point, even though it was broken as all heck. Separating them doesn't solve anything, it just doubles the work load on the devs and makes them even less likely to mess with PvP. Likewise, if a newer player goes into PvP and finds their super awesome powers work completely differently, that lack of consistency will turn them off of it.
Segregating PvP and PvE is always a bad idea, and it stems from the inherent problem of having tried to make them co-exist in the first place, which basically never works to any satisfactory degree.
It's pretty much this hard to keep just one timeline intact. ♪
I think it depends on how they do it. They need to keep the workload down.
I think "Vanilla PvP" that does not include:
- Set Bonuses
- Universal Consoles and Special Fleet Consoles
- DOFFs
- Specializations
- Starship Masteries
- Reputation Abilities
Would lessen the workload for balancing items for PvP a lot, simply because there are a lot less items to balance. It's still work.
The challenge is finding a business model for it. It's not enough to just propose a solution how to address PvP gameplay and balance issues. It must also be something that is worth attempting. If you remove the items on the list I mentioned above, you also a lot of the methods Cryptic can ensure people log in and/or buy stuff. There is no reason to buy a new ship if you can't really get a new perk with it to use, and obviously Cryptic doesn't think selling costumes alone would generate sufficient income for this.
But I think hoping to "fix" PvP without dealing with balance issues is foolish. Without a somewhat decent balance (it will never be perfect, and always under review, that's the way of life in game design), any PvP endeavour is doomed.
Does BSGO make more money than STO, however?
Is Star Trek really the franchise that you associate with constant strife and conflict, leading to constant violent conflict resolution methods?
Star Trek Online is already combat-heavy, but it has plenty of room for story content.
I mean, look at a game like EVE; which is basically PvP par excellence. There are certainly stories told there, by players, stuff like "how I tricked Organization X to give me all their money" at the extreme, and smaller stuff like ambushes and tricks and what not.
But is there room for a story where you use an abandonded base of another organization to get access to their teleportation network and their surveillance of other organizations? Do you expect players to explore an allies base and find out that they are hiding survivors from another organization in there, and that's the real reason the organization has been attacking your ally?
All these kinds of story don't really emerge in PvP gameplay, no matter how deep it is. But it is, I argue, the kind of stories you would expect to happen in Star Trek. While talks about how you ambushed another fleet or stole their goods or whatever seems less appropriate.
Nice reference to "vanilla". I laughed.
#1) I want PvE to be more like PvP. The closer the two are, the easier it would be to balance things. Also, it would lead to greater build diversity and challenge since the player would have to deal with more from the NPCs.
#2) For I don't how many years, some players have dreamed of the removal of PvP - thinking that without PvP, they would be free to run around with whatever overpowered nonsense managed to slip by Q&A. Some players "compromised" by presenting the idea of separating PvP and PvE - thinking that with them separated, they would be free to run around with whatever overpowered nonsense managed to slip by Q&A. Even with no PvP in the game or even with PvP separated, there would still be folks that have hissyfits because some honest player came along to ruin their fun by reporting some overpowered nonsense that managed to slip by Q&A.
Call it the Temporal Coliseum or something. It would be a large station where one can find PvP(vE) with its own series of arenas with different rulesets, such as:
Normal - Team-based PvP as it is currently. Ranked matches exist here; happening twice a day.
Half-Vanilla - Team and Solo options. Certain Vanilla PvP rules lifted, such as removal of certain ship restrictions, or weapon restrictions.
Vanilla - Team and Solo options. See Vanilla PvP rules. Ranked matches exist here; happening twice a day.
In-Faction - Fed vs Fed / KDF vs KDF/ Rom vs Rom. Only restriction is that all participants are of the same Faction, with the unique exception of Romulans also being able to participate alongside their chosen alliance, if pure Rom vs Rom rooms are under populated. Romulans are required to fight in Romulan ships as part of a Rom vs Rom room.
Faction vs Faction - Fed vs KDF / KDF vs Rom / Rom vs Fed. Romulans can choose to fight alongside their allies as well, if there is not enough wanting to strike it out pretending to be an independent Romulan. Romulans are required to fight in Romulan ships as part of a Rom vs room.
Fleet vs - Fleet vs Fleet and Fed Fleet vs KDF Fleet. Ranked matches exist here; happening twice a day.
Free-for-All - Form teams within, or go solo. No one is your ally, and if you and your temporary teammate are the last ones standing, the team is disbanded and you two must duke it out. There will be no warning should a teammate choose to disband sooner and leave you on your own. Ranked matches exist here.
Capture the Starbases - Team-based Capture the Area but with Starbases. 5 or so Starbases across the map start off neutral. Capture rate depends on how many teammates are within the respective control zones, with enemy forces within bringing it to a halt. Captured Starbases deploy basic defense turrets (that do not regenerate/redeploy when destroyed unless captured/recaptured) and will provide a slow heal to any player of the holding team within its zone of control.
Massed Assault - Team-based battles, but with NPCs fighting alongside both teams against each other. There is a fixed number of NPC reinforcements, scaled to the number of players on each team. Battle ends when all players of one team are defeated twice.
Masters of the Galaxy - Restricted to top-ranked players of the week from Ranked matches in Normal, Vanilla, and Free-for-All and top-ranked Fleets from Fleet vs. Unlike regular Ranked matches, held only once or twice every Saturday. There are 1-on-1, Team, and Free-for-All rooms for individual players or teams (in Vanilla or Normal rulesets), but only Fleet vs Fleet for Fleets (no restrictions).
Custom Non-Ranked PvP - Customize settings based on the room master's preference, such as the ability to toggle on or off Skillpoints and Specializations. Or even toggle on or off active and passive console bonuses. Hate cloakers? Toggle off Cloak use for the room.
Reenact major engagements. Duel for the top rank and become a Master of the Arena. Want restrictions? Play with smaller groups with certain rules, such as Vanilla, or have the room leader toggle Skills Disabled and Specializations Disabled.
There are 4 possible Ranked battle lists to participate in: Individual (Free-for-All), Team (requires a team be set up at time of register), Solo (1-on-1), and Fleet (Fleet Leader MUST be present to sign-up). Ranked battles are twice a day; set at times when most are on, with registrations opening 1 hour prior to Ranked match starts. Registered players will be auto-queued against roughly similar opponents, where possible, and will continue until all registered players for that session are done.
The Ranked fights are non-stop; 1v1 players will fight until they lose, with a second chance vs another player before they're out for that Ranking. Teams will fight until they're defeated, with one more chance to climb back up after their first loss. A second loss ends further Ranked participation for that session. Free-for-All players must fight for the top 3-5 slots per match to advance to the next Free-for-All, and there are no second chances. Fleets do not get second chances either. If individual players, teams, or Fleets make both Ranked session times each day, only their highest score for that day will be counted (may be subject to change to only first participation).
That's right, NO custom builds. The storyline will be since the Federation-Klingon war has ended, we can now spar with each other in holodeck combat scenarios. Each person will pick from a list of premade ships or premade ground kits (that are hopefully on an even playing field). That way, there's no more crazy plasma explosions and blinding resonance beams.
SCM - Hive (S) - [02:31] DMG(DPS) - @jarvisandalfred: 30.62M(204.66K) - Fed Sci
Tacs are overrated.
Game's best wiki
Build questions? Look here!
Early on in STO's life, the game was better balanced with far more aspects of the game being effective in both PVP and PVE. Early on in STO, it wasn't "Energy Weapons / DPS or GTFO." It wasn't like that in PVP and PVE. You could take into both energy weapons focused builds, torp boats, science heavy builds into both PVP and PVE and do just fine. The rules of the game wasn't drastically stupid between both, just the tempo of PVP was different.
Separating PVP & PVE in STO will do nothing to help either.
PVP: You still have a game mode that languishes from utter dev neglect. No amount of game rebalancing will save that.
PVE: You still have a game mode where the NPCs are Dead TRIBBLE and do nothing. Do people REALLY NEED that much more power creep to gang up and beat up on a few TRIBBLE kids? I don't see Cryptic making the NPCs better other than bloating their hull & shields and throwing in a 1-shot or two. Also, even with the separation of PVP from PVE, I do not foresee other aspects of gameplay to be as competitive as Raw DPS.
I do not see the return of Disable-based builds being viable in PVE anymore. That ended years ago.
I do not see the return of Sensor-based attacks being viable in PVE anymore. That ended years ago.
In short, I do not see any benefit of STO from separating PVP & PVE in STO. Cryptic hates 1 thing more than the KDF and strove for years to do less for it, and that is PVP. Cryptic does not know how to diversify PVE into making more aspects viable other than "Moar DPS." Actually, let me change that. Cryptic took a once very diverse STO gameplay and narrowed it down to "Moar DPS." They can't even make the NPCs fight better.
Heh, the whole thing is pretty much trollbait/flamebait out the wahzoo...
Player Characters and NPCs are usually a whole different ballpark where balance is concerned.
"He shall be my finest warrior, this generic man who was forced upon me.
Like a badass I shall make him look, and in the furnace of war I shall forge him.
he shall be of iron will and steely sinew.
In great armour I shall clad him and with the mightiest weapons he shall be armed.
He will be untouched by plague or disease; no sickness shall blight him.
He shall have such tactics, strategies and machines that no foe will best him in battle.
He is my answer to cryptic logic, he is the Defender of my Romulan Crew.
He is Tovan Khev... and he shall know no fear."
The biggest reason for me to want it being separated is those useless pvpdmg and pvpres mods would be gone from pve weapons. It's hard already to make good weapons without the chance diminishing further with useless pvp mods...
For the glory of Tempus!
I am the hands of Shar!
Flames of Kossuth, protect me!
Oghma, grant me knowledge!
Lolth commands, and I obey!
I would be great to have leader boards e.t.c and I strongly agree with you that "Shooter" mode needs some serious improvements
Let PvE have the OP immunities and things like (the original) Surgical Strikes/Ionic Turbulence that they blame us for nerfing, while simultaneously crying (some, not all) that even the nerfed versions are too difficult.
If we can get balanced PvP, it would be a godsend.
Why is "Remove PvP" even an option? As it stands now, it has literally no effect (minimal, at very best) effect on PvE. Removing it would serve no one any good, and it would not only be removing content, but removing the one part of the game that requires skill beyond understanding timing and scripted actions.
But it's not compatible with all the endgame grind items and epic tier and fleet gear and such that have been added since. Having just returned to the game i don't want to touch PVP with a long stick because the potential power of ostensibly fairly equal ships at the RA/VA ranks seems wildly variable.
the main mechanical problem in pvp/pve balance - aside from grind gear - is probably how per-hit things are way better against players because players fire so much more often, which is a design flaw baked in from the start. Solvable, IMO, but oh well.
honestly at this point it would probably be best converting pvp into a clean competitive system like guild wars 2 pvp uses, where you have an alter egos that compete with identically-powered gear with eachother and the only differences are builds. you don't really need to separate out the power balance.
i'm deeply suspicious of any complaints about how pvp or pve balance impacts the other. in my experience if something is imbalanced in one arena it is usually imbalanced in the other. my favorite example of this comes from champions online, where people were screaming bloody murder about how nerfs to certain power combos were because of PVP when those same combos were letting people solo 5-man instances.
And let the Borg "assimilate" all the new ships and gear (the new consoles and powers). Then you will see what is balanced or not. Pretty much immediate feedback on what is going to be OP on the obvious level, although it wont tell you what is OP when it is [ab]used in creative ways.
All of this has been said before and will doubtless be said again. Cryptic hasn't hit bottom yet.
Honestly the only thing they could do for PVP at this point is to create a tier 3 mode which only allows vanilla consoles. Great balance and good pacing. Anyone who did PVP up the tiers back in the day should remember how fun tier 3 was compared to the other tiers.
Admittedly, that's not always good, either. I don't think BFAW would be as powerful as it is today if PvPers hadn't pointed out the story state it used to be in.
At release, there were a lot of powers that were pretty much useless. But there was a point where Cryptic made a big revamp (It might either be Season 1.2 or Season 2, i don't remember anymore), and it involved a lot of testing on Tribble, strongly supported by the PvP community. Without that, Auxilliary to Structural Integrity, Emergency Powers and several others would have been left useless. Gravity Well saw a lot of changes and improvements later on, also partially due to the PvP community analysis.
And quite honestly - it's the same with nerfs. You know what a single overpowered ability is in practice? It means a lot of underpowered abilities that are not deemed a viable option, locking people into options they might not actually want. Nerfs can fix that. Again, look at BFAW - for PvE, it has become the non-plus-ultra damage dealing ability. Want to run a DHC boat? Hah, how 2012 of you...
Nowadays, PvP doesn't do much anymore. Many PvPers have given up on STO, others have given up on PvP and are now doing the DPS optimization game. But while they might often be the same people, their motivations are slightly different. PvPers need balance, because every overpowered ability can also be used against them, and that quickly locks people into the few "viable" uber builds relying on OP abilities or they lose. The DPS crowd only needs to blow things up faster, those things don't get better from the tricks the DPS crowd learns. Some will still demand balance, because it feels like cheating to use obviously OP abilities, but the pressure is a lot lower than it is for PvP. It's not a direct competition, if you deal a bit less DPS because you played "fair", you still get all the rewards. In PvP, not going with the best mechanical options means you don't win.
(And I strongly suspect that TB is still not that powerful in PvP, ironicaly.)
so while 1 Item may do something specific in PvE it may do something different in PvP which would encourage both pvp and pve builds but also hybrids (which is something we pretty much have atm but not very defined or specific apart from the [PvPdmg] mod for weapons etc.
It would also give PvP a chance to develop beyond the constraints of the mostly PvE demographic of players and the game itself as well as bring many players back. Im not a PvPer but I would love for it get some major improvements.
And before any of you say uhh they aren't going to do that they dont have the time etc, well based on the prices they are charging for items and how much people do honestly spend on this game (because lets face it, nobodies going to be naive here they make a lot of money off of us and not everyone who plays is represented on this forum). So based on that Cryptic could hire a separate team to help out with revamping PvP, yes its not as simple as "just hire them" but its doable. I also know many do not like the "PvPers" they're classed as whiny or bitchy (something frankly im guilty of as ive said this about them in the past) but frankly they've had little to no content if at all for years since launch so they deserve a better environment to enjoy the part of the game they seem to love.
on that note I would actually play pvp if it had a massive revamp and got regular content and updates.