We can always assume there is some rouge or conservative group of Klingons that are willing to go against the wishes of the High Command, so there will be a reason to have PvP with Klingons. So even with peace their will be Fed vs. Klingon battles. Not to mention that the KDF and Feds might do such as a simulation, training, or holodeck challenge. There are other plausible reasons why the KDF and Feds might go at it during peace time.
Also, many Vulcans would likely welcome some Klingons in hope that they may cast away their emotions and embrace logic, just as Vulcan's ancestors did many years past. Thus Vulcan might be an interesting travel destination for science KDF, and possibly KDF who are following a path of faith, religion or philosophy. None of that is unheard of in KDF storylines. Not to mention in Star Trek V, there was the suggestion that there are some Vulcans who are experimenting with emotion. Just sayin.
also signing to open vulcan for kdf /min. to marauders at least/
In its' current incarnation Risa is built to be a no-combat, cross-faction social zone that -- to the best of my knowledge -- allows anyone regardless of level to visit. No different from Drozana, really.
What I was suggesting was a zone that bars characters from the opposite faction until a specific condition (such as level) is met.
And my suspicion is that Vulcan would have to be rebuilt on a new map to make anything like that happen. And this memorial isn't sufficient reason to do that. I'd expect to see Klingon warriors walking around on ESD (without shooting anybody) before that happens.
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What I was suggesting was a zone that bars characters from the opposite faction until a specific condition (such as level) is met.
Considering that diplomatic immunity is about to be 100% obsolete with the S10 walls coming down, I think that tying it to players that reach rank 4 in diplo/raider would be excellent.
Then again, I'm all for cross-faction fleets too. Not sure why we can't do that yet.
Shouldn't Klingons (KDF) be able to visit Vulcan? Vulcan is a rather neutral place, right? Shouldn't Klingons be able to visit the Nimoy/Spock memorial on Vulcan. Personally I think so. At the very least if a player achieves Level 4 Diplomacy (aka "Marauding"), they should be able to visit and go down to Vulcan. If you agree, please chime in.
I wasn't sure where a feature request such as this should go, so I am posting here.
um vulcan is deep in fed space, just a hop from earth. Now, at 60 / having completed the story line, and being at peace, I think visitation should be allowed between factions on some scale. But remember that a new char thinks we are still at war, and will until fairly high level, so should the visitation be limited by level or story line progress (which is tied to level)?
Visitation certainly seems more appropriate than a monument in the First City to those whom it does.
The single reference that might justify a monument dedicated to Spock, the character is very weak and soft canon. He was his father's hand (through a string of intermediaries.) that made overtures to Gorkon instrumental in the foundation of the Khitomer Accord.
The current regime/cult of personality might be adverse to openly raising monuments to a respected man recognized foremost as a peacemaker.
There is some wiggle room that could give some traction if J'mpok were to publicly reinstitute the Accord as the Feds and the Klingon Empire are no longer at war but among Federation diplomats only Kurzon Dax was greatly respected by Klingons and would likely be the only appropriate choice among Federation stateman and he, to Spock's disadvantage was also involved in the process.
As a player it doesn't matter to me as there are other factions I can visit with if it is important to me. I don't need to visit a monument to know it is there. From an RP perspective Spock was not someone a Klingon should admire.
The Fed-KDF was is outright over. That meeting at the beginning of Surface tension was restarted and created the Jenolan Accords, the new peace treaty between the Feds and Klingons.
As I understand it the Accords were intended as a cease fire, and it was the assassination by the Iconians at the ceremony that led to a full blown end of the war / alliance.
From a game play POV I'd like to see those walls come down too. But from a lore POV you don't see the Russian or Chinese navy steaming into San Diego just because we're not at war with them... that's how sneak attacks happen after all. Remember the Maine! Cuba has never forgotten.
From an RP perspective Spock was not someone a Klingon should admire.
That seems completely backwards, unless you truly believe the KDF is not about honor and persistence and instead really are devoted to war for its own sake.
That seems completely backwards, unless you truly believe the KDF is not about honor and persistence and instead really are devoted to war for its own sake.
Not at all depending on where you arrived at your definition of honour from. As a renowned peacemaker Spock avoided battle. As a Half-Vulcan who publicly identified as Vulcan he is of a race regarded as pacifists. As a race of prodigious natural strength who were reluctant to fight the natural cowardice of the Vulcan people is only made more apparent to a Klingon.
Klingons do love war; not simply for the act of battle but for the personal challenge and honesty of it. They believe warriors show their true selves in battle. War to Klingons is more complicated. Klingons come from many walks of life but the warrior is revered. The majority of Klingon officials have military backgrounds because their deeds in war give them status.
Spock's stoic manner would be a detriment to any dialogue he might have with a Klingon. Quiet people keep secrets and should be mistrusted. If he wasn't identified as secretive his perceived deference would be labelled cowardice. Not only is Spock a diplomat, a non-Klingon and reserved he is a friend to Romulans.
Choosing enemies well implies to a Klingon battle neither impossible or too easy. Spock was a compromiser by nature and chose not to fight what might have great battles that would have earned him honour. That middle road is cowardice. Even as Spock approached Ghorkon he did not suggest he was in a position of power. Gorkon would have commanded the Empire into a final war even as Praxis fell. He was one of the more calculating and pragmatic Klingon Heads of State but it shouldn't be mistaken for Human or Vulcan peacemaking. He earned his office by ritual combat. I think Gulberat used the term, "Thought Admiral" as a descriptor".
Klingon honour is a social and cultural mechanism. It binds warriors, families, houses, the Empire as a whole against outsiders when it must. It is also biased when evaluating the merits of Klingons against the deeds of others. This is dichotomy/double standard that gives them resolve against enemies.
Klingon honour is not human shogun honour or turning the other cheek honour. It's Klingon honour. If there was an earth book that a Klingon should read or principles that might be acceptable I think they would come from "The Prince" by Machiavelli. The notion of fortuna dictating the flow of power as something that must be seized. Fortuna to me may be as close as humans come to defining Klingon honour.
**I like the character Spock very much. I have since I was a kid. I'm trying to evaluate him from a Klingon perspective not by my personal bias.
I disagree across the board. At best you are describing Romulans, and even then a cartoon. Your assumptions regarding Spock that he was a dedicated pacifist are simply wrong. The Spock character has many example of full on battle, and was often deceptive in a way Machiavelli would completely understand. In Spock's mind, war is not its own end and there is nothing in Klingon canon to suggest they'd choose mindless war without guaranteed accomplishment of goals.
Machiavelli for example also said pass no law that will be ignored and draw contempt. Machiavelli wasn't a totalitarian and nor are the KDF. The KDF do support a form of representative democracy but expressed in House/feudal ways completely in keeping with Western tribal systems. Pay your levies and tithes, do want you want.
Frankly USA founding father Alexander Hamilton had much the same interpretation of politics as the Klingons - harvest the peasants, land owners have all privileges, liberty is for suckers so a recipe for anarchy, and when Barbary raises its head go into full Imperialism mode. Hamilton, desperately small and a TRIBBLE (classical definition) who longed for respect, was a Klingon. And not even he suggested what you do.
Spock was a warrior. He had a warrior's creed balanced by the greater good. He was capable of rage and empathy, though he'd never admit it so that was McCoy's job, he made terrible errors, he was an admiral in battle, he gave orders that killed millions of the enemy and that resulted in the deaths of millions of his faction.
I disagree across the board. At best you are describing Romulans, and even then a cartoon. Your assumptions regarding Spock that he was a dedicated pacifist are simply wrong. The Spock character has many example of full on battle, and was often deceptive in a way Machiavelli would completely understand. In Spock's mind, war is not its own end and there is nothing in Klingon canon to suggest they'd choose mindless war without guaranteed accomplishment of goals.
The Klingons are unlikely to be privy to the life of Spock in every detail. On a galactic scale what does Spock's reputation inform us about him. Spock doesn't have to be a self proclaimed card carrying pacifist. Appearances are everything to a Klingon. If you are a great warrior you proudly proclaim your deeds. What is mindless war? I mentioned the importance of reputation and prestige to a Klingon and battle being the surest means of achieving this. I also described the Klingon to measure themselves against their enemies, test themselves. These are purposes unto themselves whether you accept them as valid or not.
Machiavelli for example also said pass no law that will be ignored and draw contempt. Machiavelli wasn't a totalitarian and nor are the KDF. The KDF do support a form of representative democracy but expressed in House/feudal ways completely in keeping with Western tribal systems. Pay your levies and tithes, do want you want.
The Klingon Justice System is recognized as harsh with serious penalties for transgressions. It has never been described as arbitrary or particularly corrupt. Cardassian Law would fit the bill for a description of a Totalitarian government lacking even in jurisprudence. Guilt is simply preordained and the trials are a bureaucratic formality. You state that neither Machiavelli or the Klingon Empire is totalitarian. I established a commonality between the two not differences. What was the point of bringing this back to the discussion? In your previous paragraph you suggested I had simplified systems to such a degree you referred to them as a cartoon. A High Chauncellor may have the authority to make unilateral decrees about the state of the Empire but the cheques and balances are the alliances he has built against the enemies he has made. Power is transient and decisions must be balanced against the prevailing attitudes of the greatest blocs of power. The position is the high ground the the High High Chauncellor must watch the ground beneath his feet lest it crumble beneath them. The ,"do as you want" part is probably the most ridiculous suggestion you made and is a charicature of the western european feudal model on earth. You didn't even get the planet or culture right.
Spock was a warrior. He had a warrior's creed balanced by the greater good. He was capable of rage and empathy, though he'd never admit it so that was McCoy's job, he made terrible errors, he was an admiral in battle, he gave orders that killed millions of the enemy and that resulted in the deaths of millions of his faction.
You state that Spock isn't even able to admit this to himself. I'm sure he made every effort in mien to suggest his warrior soul in all his dealings particularly while engaged in diplomatic duties. I didn't write this under the premise Spock was subjected to a mind sifter and the Klingons assessing his martial qualities were privy to omniscient insight. Based on exhibited behaviors he was a sufficiently pacifistic he would judged as such. I don't believe Spock ordered the death of millions; And I don't think he would be proud of such an "accomplishment" if he had.
War is its own terrible logic.
Quote from where? Spock or someone like John Stuart Mill? Either would be suitable idols for an aspiring Federation humanitarian but I don't see the relevance. It's pretty clear neither of us will change the other's mind. It's my opinion you "heard" what I wrote rather than "listened" ,interpreted it as "Spock is a wuss" and went illogical. Hopefully someone else will come along and share their opinion.
Comments
Also, many Vulcans would likely welcome some Klingons in hope that they may cast away their emotions and embrace logic, just as Vulcan's ancestors did many years past. Thus Vulcan might be an interesting travel destination for science KDF, and possibly KDF who are following a path of faith, religion or philosophy. None of that is unheard of in KDF storylines. Not to mention in Star Trek V, there was the suggestion that there are some Vulcans who are experimenting with emotion. Just sayin.
until the latest head dev gets canned too and the new one eliminates or retcons that story too
Don't see that happening. He hates the KDF and anything associated with it. Therefore his job is safe.
In its' current incarnation Risa is built to be a no-combat, cross-faction social zone that -- to the best of my knowledge -- allows anyone regardless of level to visit. No different from Drozana, really.
What I was suggesting was a zone that bars characters from the opposite faction until a specific condition (such as level) is met.
And my suspicion is that Vulcan would have to be rebuilt on a new map to make anything like that happen. And this memorial isn't sufficient reason to do that. I'd expect to see Klingon warriors walking around on ESD (without shooting anybody) before that happens.
Link: How to PM - Twitter @STOMod_Bluegeek
Considering that diplomatic immunity is about to be 100% obsolete with the S10 walls coming down, I think that tying it to players that reach rank 4 in diplo/raider would be excellent.
Then again, I'm all for cross-faction fleets too. Not sure why we can't do that yet.
um vulcan is deep in fed space, just a hop from earth. Now, at 60 / having completed the story line, and being at peace, I think visitation should be allowed between factions on some scale. But remember that a new char thinks we are still at war, and will until fairly high level, so should the visitation be limited by level or story line progress (which is tied to level)?
The single reference that might justify a monument dedicated to Spock, the character is very weak and soft canon. He was his father's hand (through a string of intermediaries.) that made overtures to Gorkon instrumental in the foundation of the Khitomer Accord.
The current regime/cult of personality might be adverse to openly raising monuments to a respected man recognized foremost as a peacemaker.
There is some wiggle room that could give some traction if J'mpok were to publicly reinstitute the Accord as the Feds and the Klingon Empire are no longer at war but among Federation diplomats only Kurzon Dax was greatly respected by Klingons and would likely be the only appropriate choice among Federation stateman and he, to Spock's disadvantage was also involved in the process.
As a player it doesn't matter to me as there are other factions I can visit with if it is important to me. I don't need to visit a monument to know it is there. From an RP perspective Spock was not someone a Klingon should admire.
From a game play POV I'd like to see those walls come down too. But from a lore POV you don't see the Russian or Chinese navy steaming into San Diego just because we're not at war with them... that's how sneak attacks happen after all. Remember the Maine! Cuba has never forgotten.
Not at all depending on where you arrived at your definition of honour from. As a renowned peacemaker Spock avoided battle. As a Half-Vulcan who publicly identified as Vulcan he is of a race regarded as pacifists. As a race of prodigious natural strength who were reluctant to fight the natural cowardice of the Vulcan people is only made more apparent to a Klingon.
Klingons do love war; not simply for the act of battle but for the personal challenge and honesty of it. They believe warriors show their true selves in battle. War to Klingons is more complicated. Klingons come from many walks of life but the warrior is revered. The majority of Klingon officials have military backgrounds because their deeds in war give them status.
Spock's stoic manner would be a detriment to any dialogue he might have with a Klingon. Quiet people keep secrets and should be mistrusted. If he wasn't identified as secretive his perceived deference would be labelled cowardice. Not only is Spock a diplomat, a non-Klingon and reserved he is a friend to Romulans.
Choosing enemies well implies to a Klingon battle neither impossible or too easy. Spock was a compromiser by nature and chose not to fight what might have great battles that would have earned him honour. That middle road is cowardice. Even as Spock approached Ghorkon he did not suggest he was in a position of power. Gorkon would have commanded the Empire into a final war even as Praxis fell. He was one of the more calculating and pragmatic Klingon Heads of State but it shouldn't be mistaken for Human or Vulcan peacemaking. He earned his office by ritual combat. I think Gulberat used the term, "Thought Admiral" as a descriptor".
Klingon honour is a social and cultural mechanism. It binds warriors, families, houses, the Empire as a whole against outsiders when it must. It is also biased when evaluating the merits of Klingons against the deeds of others. This is dichotomy/double standard that gives them resolve against enemies.
Klingon honour is not human shogun honour or turning the other cheek honour. It's Klingon honour. If there was an earth book that a Klingon should read or principles that might be acceptable I think they would come from "The Prince" by Machiavelli. The notion of fortuna dictating the flow of power as something that must be seized. Fortuna to me may be as close as humans come to defining Klingon honour.
**I like the character Spock very much. I have since I was a kid. I'm trying to evaluate him from a Klingon perspective not by my personal bias.
Machiavelli for example also said pass no law that will be ignored and draw contempt. Machiavelli wasn't a totalitarian and nor are the KDF. The KDF do support a form of representative democracy but expressed in House/feudal ways completely in keeping with Western tribal systems. Pay your levies and tithes, do want you want.
Frankly USA founding father Alexander Hamilton had much the same interpretation of politics as the Klingons - harvest the peasants, land owners have all privileges, liberty is for suckers so a recipe for anarchy, and when Barbary raises its head go into full Imperialism mode. Hamilton, desperately small and a TRIBBLE (classical definition) who longed for respect, was a Klingon. And not even he suggested what you do.
Spock was a warrior. He had a warrior's creed balanced by the greater good. He was capable of rage and empathy, though he'd never admit it so that was McCoy's job, he made terrible errors, he was an admiral in battle, he gave orders that killed millions of the enemy and that resulted in the deaths of millions of his faction.
War is its own terrible logic.
The Klingons are unlikely to be privy to the life of Spock in every detail. On a galactic scale what does Spock's reputation inform us about him. Spock doesn't have to be a self proclaimed card carrying pacifist. Appearances are everything to a Klingon. If you are a great warrior you proudly proclaim your deeds. What is mindless war? I mentioned the importance of reputation and prestige to a Klingon and battle being the surest means of achieving this. I also described the Klingon to measure themselves against their enemies, test themselves. These are purposes unto themselves whether you accept them as valid or not.
The Klingon Justice System is recognized as harsh with serious penalties for transgressions. It has never been described as arbitrary or particularly corrupt. Cardassian Law would fit the bill for a description of a Totalitarian government lacking even in jurisprudence. Guilt is simply preordained and the trials are a bureaucratic formality. You state that neither Machiavelli or the Klingon Empire is totalitarian. I established a commonality between the two not differences. What was the point of bringing this back to the discussion? In your previous paragraph you suggested I had simplified systems to such a degree you referred to them as a cartoon. A High Chauncellor may have the authority to make unilateral decrees about the state of the Empire but the cheques and balances are the alliances he has built against the enemies he has made. Power is transient and decisions must be balanced against the prevailing attitudes of the greatest blocs of power. The position is the high ground the the High High Chauncellor must watch the ground beneath his feet lest it crumble beneath them. The ,"do as you want" part is probably the most ridiculous suggestion you made and is a charicature of the western european feudal model on earth. You didn't even get the planet or culture right.
You state that Spock isn't even able to admit this to himself. I'm sure he made every effort in mien to suggest his warrior soul in all his dealings particularly while engaged in diplomatic duties. I didn't write this under the premise Spock was subjected to a mind sifter and the Klingons assessing his martial qualities were privy to omniscient insight. Based on exhibited behaviors he was a sufficiently pacifistic he would judged as such. I don't believe Spock ordered the death of millions; And I don't think he would be proud of such an "accomplishment" if he had.
Quote from where? Spock or someone like John Stuart Mill? Either would be suitable idols for an aspiring Federation humanitarian but I don't see the relevance. It's pretty clear neither of us will change the other's mind. It's my opinion you "heard" what I wrote rather than "listened" ,interpreted it as "Spock is a wuss" and went illogical. Hopefully someone else will come along and share their opinion.