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Im tired of AP getting everything (including unfixed exploit)
shinnok918
Member Posts: 312 Arc User
I don't know whose bright idea it was to make antiproton OP but it needs to finally stop. focus on something else for a while. plasma for example. in order for it to compete with antiproton at this point it needs to burn a LOT more. and I want to have a second or (thanks to the fracking bug where if u upgrade one ancient array but not the other u can slot 2) third omnidirectional plasma beam array. theres a reason ALL high dps rigs are antiproton
THATS THE DEFINITION OF OVERPOWERED.
THATS THE DEFINITION OF OVERPOWERED.
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Plasma boosting plasma is pretty far out but they could probably find a way to make it make sense.
Well that would have saved tracking down an overpriced turret had I known that.
Drum roll please ...
All energy based consoles provide their bonus to all torpedoes as well, in given energy flavor
What i mean is, a 20% phaser console would add 20% extra damage to a plasma torpedo as phaser damage.
Poof, all torpedoes are useful again
Not only are you wrong (not inaccurate, just flat-out wrong) about AP getting "everything" and having an unfixed exploit, but you are falsely assigning AP as the top standard that all other weapons must aspire toward.
Different weapons types have different procs. Phaser? Chance for subsystem disable (nerfed into oblivion). Tetryon? Chance to strip a chunk of shields away (totally useless since NPCs regen shields so fast and have millions of hp). Polaron? Chance to drain subsystem power (pretty small effect, in most cases, but not useless). Disruptor? Debuff damage resistance, so that damge goes UP (if you understand game mechanics, this is a very good proc). Plasma? Direct-to-hull plasma burn that NPCs don't clear and it stacks (this is decent, if you build purely for it). Some hybrids combine the best of both worlds, like RomPlas (disruptor debuff and plasma burn!).
What's the proc on AP? When you crit, that crit will be for a little more than before. Crits already default to 150% of normal. So the proc on AP is to make that 160% of normal when you crit.
In short, this game has become a massive grind over the years.. Who am I kidding? It's jumped to PLAID levels of grind in the past few months alone. Damage is king. Ap does slightly more damage. That's its proc. If you gear your entire ship and entire build to this, you can take small advantage of it.
This is why AP is king. The proc is just, simply, "more damage."
Not heaps more, but "more."
There's nothing OP about it. There's nothing exploitive about it. Get your facts straight and quit jumping on hate bandwagons until you know wtf you're talking about. Thank you.
Now if that extra damage only had a 2.5% chance like every other proc there'd be no problem.
But players can influence the chance *AND* the severity of the proc. Which other procs can players do that for?
And it certainly does not need an exclusive torpedo added to the bunch.
Vreenak: I rather agree. Making a torp be energy damage? Lame.
The torpedo sounds potentially 'nice' for AP builds. Not earth shattering. Just Nice.
I play with all energy types other than tetryon. Heck, my favourites right now are Elite Phasers, which most players will giggle at. I've watched people run the tightest builds on a Scimi, but could not break 5K. It's all about the pilot.
To my point: It's not the energy type, nor the build, nor the special consoles or torpedoes; it's the pilot that does the damage. SKILLS ABOVE ALL.
Yes they can influence it but to really take advantage it is dammed expensive and not everyone fully understands what it required to fully take this point to its conclusion. You need weapons with AP [crtd]x3 or preferably x4 and a tonne of fully upgraded spire vulnerability locators. That is not cheap!
Pick any other energy type and you can have a top-o-the-line build for considerably less than an AP build because you are not relying on crit rates or severity to get the extra damage that the other procs can deliver.
I'm only quoting that part of what you said because I agree wholeheartedly 100% with everything else you said.
AP is 20% severity. So, you go to 170%.
The actual amount of extra damage AP gives, however, is ~5%, give or take, over tetryon weapons vs an unshielded target. And that's not counting the fact that tetryon used to hold the dps record in ISA, which has it's fair amount of unshielded targets. Or the fact that every other weapon type has a worthwhile 2-set.
Unlike almost every other proc in the game, antiproton is hit hard by diminishing returns. As you increase the amount of crit severity you already have, AP becomes less of a relative increase. As you increase the category 2 bonuses you have, AP becomes less of a relative increase. So, that means that the people who care most about AP's extra damage, the all hated Tac's in Scimitars, stack the things that ensure AP makes the least difference (since APA/GDF/TF/APO/EPTW/Nukara Aux->Offense all make AP have less of a difference, because math).
Stacking flow caps just makes polaron and tetryon drain harder, and that's linear scaling. Subsystem disables remain very strong in PvP, and shields offline alone are massive boosts to damage vs bosses especially in PvE (when we kill so many things via bleedthrough, having 100% bleedthrough for a few seconds is huge). Disruptor is damage resist debuffing, and while this is likewise hampered a bit by diminishing returns, it's still the second best proc in the game. Plasma fires are plasma fires, and they burn to their heart's content.
AP is fair. There's going to be one 'best' proc no matter what. But people who think it's OP don't realize how insignificant it actually is.
SCM - Hive (S) - [02:31] DMG(DPS) - @jarvisandalfred: 30.62M(204.66K) - Fed Sci
Tacs are overrated.
Game's best wiki
Build questions? Look here!
"Optimal" and "overpowered" are two different things. Firstly, "overpowered" can not exist in an objective sense since it relies entirely on the personal opinion of the one using it.
Protonic polarons are a *chance* on crit of dealing a fixed amount of proton damage, not a percentage of the polaron damage. You have to use the split Dyson tac consoles to boost proton damage or the Dyson rep universal console. Not nearly as easy as and efficient crth and crtd.
So yes, technically protonic polaron procs scale on both crit chance and proton damage but it is a 25% chance on crit, not a 100% chance on crit like AP, and proton damage is very limited what boosts and you have to give up "regular" damage to boost it.
I'm only running protonic polaron on my Solanae Dyson Destroyer for thematic reasons. Proton damage is a bear to boost.
Very valid point. My favorite for new alts - phased polarons. Cheap as borscht.
It's three omni AP beams, 1 crafted, 1 upgraded Ancient, 1 vanilla ancient.
*Grabs popcorn*
AP didn't need a torpedo that worked with energy consoles on top of having three (two free) omni arrays.
That torpedo should have gone to some other energy type first. Plasma thematically.
My new favorite for alts, AP crtdx3 pen, cos they are crafted and go in my account bank and all my toons can use them.
But, the point of the OP, is AP is OP, which is BS.
My disruptor build does just about the same dps as my anti-proton build. it's a matter of less than 5%, and that's being generous, it's probably more like 1%.
AP is just favored by the MinMax build because it is the strongest proc.
I reserve the right to have a completely different standpoint depending on my mood.
no its not "fair" if you can boost a torpedo AND all your 7 arrays with 5 tacconsoles at the SAME time for FULL amount
all other builds always suffer the "either or" or "both half" reduce. so you either have full phaser 5tacs, or 5x full quantum neutronic, or you do a 2/3 or 3/2 SPLIT
the AP torp +Array things is quite exactly what was held "exploit" and "bug" with plasma: its double dipping one console for both torp and energyweapon maxing, wich is extremely Op the MORE tacconsoles +tacBOseats you have. its exponential.
an "classic" escort iwth BO3 and HY3 with 5AP tacconsoles can now have a huge amount of rofl at ONE time.
not to mention the extreme benefits of this Ap energy-torpedo vs shields, and not to mention its immense scaling with command "concentrate fire3" ability.
i think you dont know enough about minmaxing a build and about game mechanics (shield kin inbuild resist (yes the torp will have its full dmg on shields like a beam would - only chance is reflecting it) to actually understand WHY the **** this torpedo is so OP.
i mean okay. i dont play pvp so its quite okay, cause heck i just hope pug-people use it and finally do some dps thats over that of a single hangar fighter. so stfs will finally be doable again.
but still: this torpedo.energy whatever is kind of the incarnation of ****-the-rules-imbalance.
Balance!? In STO!? You must be new here! XD On a serious note, this game has been imbalanced as hell since launch in many, many ways.
That needs to be fixed. I will submit a bug report as soon as I can. You guys could do the same.
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Here's the deal though - it'll either suck just as much as any other torp/energy weapon combination, or it'll be so absurdly overpowered that it won't matter what energy weapon type you use. Here's my reasoning:
For people who broadside, torps aren't viable for dps purposes, all other reasons aside, because, simply put, because to fire them you have to have either your rear or frontal weapons out of arc - except in the case of Wide-Angle torps, which limit you to a 35 degree arc.
So, broadsiders won't use them.
For people who use DBB's, they actually don't have this issue. But people who use DBB's don't have the torp skill points or the doff space for PWO's.
To be competitive in DBB builds, this torp has to be doing 10-15k dps, without PWO's, without skill points, without the AMACO 2-set, and with maybe 1xTS1. At the point at which a torp does that much, torp boats will become the new meta, as an actual torp boat will be able to get more out of it than an AP user.
Nobody's gonna run it for DPS purposes and get any kind of an actual advantage. And at the point at which you're adding a torp that's a dps loss, who cares what tac consoles boost it.
SCM - Hive (S) - [02:31] DMG(DPS) - @jarvisandalfred: 30.62M(204.66K) - Fed Sci
Tacs are overrated.
Game's best wiki
Build questions? Look here!
Sir, do you have any idea, how long it took me to obtain that build?
Do you?
Do you?
Your idea is not warranted.
Good day.
In terms of the AP/Disruptor/Plasma discussion, what's the concensus about Elachi or corrosive plasma?
Corrosive Plasma: 2.5% chance to lower the target's damage resistance by 1% to 20% over 20 sec (increases each sec) and 2.5% chance to apply a non-stacking damage-over-time debuff for 15 sec
Elachi Crescent: 2.5% chance to ignore 100% of target's shields and 50% of target's damage resistance
I would imagine the Elachi Crescent is probably the best option, albeit cost prohibitive. That said, the chance to stack up to 20% DR debuff on the corrosive? Well it looks good on paper. Who knows if a target ever lives long enough to get that high, or if it resets the debuff or whether it's just too rare to make a difference?
Ahh, the old "because a wizard sucks to level up they get to be a god at 20" balance argument.
It's the free Bugatti they give away to everyone that likes chocolate, and only for chocolate, that's the issue, not the ice cream.
3 (2 free) omnis, a torp that runs off the same consoles as the energy weapons, player controlled chance and severity, etc, etc.
What do phasers get? A 2.5% chance for a 25% chance to knock some useful subsystem offline for a nanosecond.
Elachi is a PvP weapon, Corrplas is a PvE weapon. Elachi applies to just one shot, so if you're spiking someone with SS, CRF, or whatever, it'll make that one shot hit hard. But it's overall effect is minimal.
As a rough tier list (assuming [Pla] consoles aren't a factor (since they won't be soon TM), mods are full crtd, same rarity, yada yada yada, and you're not running the saturation bomb)
AP
Corrosive Plasma
Disruptors (a general mix, including Elachi and Nanite - the idea would be you mix the various disruptors), Plasma, Tetryon (if you count tet's buff to the tet cascade), Phased Biomatter
Normal weapons, thorion-infused polaron
Romplas, Protonic Polaron, Bio-Molecular disruptors, Spiral Waves, Voth AP
Refracting Tetryon, Phased Polaron, Phased Tetryon, Phased Disruptors, Destabilizing tetryon, Fluidic AP EDIT: And Vaad polaron, thanks Virusdancer. I forgot it, and it wasn't listed on the wiki.
Dominion Polaron, Plasma-Disruptor Hybrids, Caustic Plasma (these weapons are so low because of fixed mods)
SCM - Hive (S) - [02:31] DMG(DPS) - @jarvisandalfred: 30.62M(204.66K) - Fed Sci
Tacs are overrated.
Game's best wiki
Build questions? Look here!
3 ODs is a bug. Everybody knows that. 2 ODs, eh? [Acc][Arc][Dmg] vs. [CrtD]x3? So you're basically looking at a limited build on a limited number of ships.
Remember when the AP OD was the only OD? What did we get? Five other flavors of OD?
There is no Romulan Hyper Photon Torpedo.
There is no Omega Chroniton Torpedo.
There is no Particle Emission Transphasic Torpedo.
There is no Corrosive Quantum Torpedo.
Plasma, eh? You could combine 2-3 others and not come anywhere near what Plasma offers in this game.
AP gets a '79 Pinto Torpedo...and the Corvette collector moans about it?
And not even making the list are Vaadwaur Polarons...which I gleefully use along with my Ferengi Rapid. Wheeeee!
Though maybe I'll switch to Voth AP with the new Torp!
I don't want a cookie-cutter AP build, but if I want to make a DBB escort the second 360 beam pushes me that way.
1: Plasma Doping has already been nerfed. It worked with any non-plasma weapons. Phasers, Disruptors, Antiproton, Tetryon, and Polaron all did the same Plasma Fire Dmg with Doping.
2: We only use DBB on a 5/3 Setup, which means an Ancient Omni Upgraded to Mk XIV, a crafted Omni with [CrtD] or [Pen] upgraded to Mk XIV, and the Kinetic Cutting Beam aft. On a 4/4 setup, for maximum DPS, you'd use Beam Arrays all around. Anyone running an upgraded and non upgraded Ancient Omni is therefore losing DPS compared to what they could be running.
Here's the current high DPS Scimitar setup.