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Dev please explain why the [PvP Dmg] mod was added to everything and what does it do!

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  • adjudicatorhawkadjudicatorhawk Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    Would that apply to upgrading crafting-specific gear?

    Say somebody had a VR Conductive or Exciter and worked it to UR...? Same for the VR Wide-Arcs or Omnis?

    Any mods you previously had on the item would remain on the item. New mods from upgrading would be based on the pool of mods available to a non-crafted item of the same type. Any unique crafting equipment like the Omni beams or the Science/Eng consoles already have their crafting-mod when created, and would not roll another one during the upgrade process.

    This is how it's intended to work - but if you see something else, if you see a random PvPDmg mod appear on an upgraded item, by all means let us know.
    Jeff "Adjudicator Hawk" Hamilton
    Systems Designer - Cryptic Studios
    Twitter: @JeffAHamilton
  • lucho80lucho80 Member Posts: 6,593 Bug Hunter
    edited September 2014
    Any mods you previously had on the item would remain on the item. New mods from upgrading would be based on the pool of mods available to a non-crafted item of the same type. Any unique crafting equipment like the Omni beams or the Science/Eng consoles already have their crafting-mod when created, and would not roll another one during the upgrade process.

    This is how it's intended to work - but if you see something else, if you see a random PvPDmg mod appear on an upgraded item, by all means let us know.

    But, back to what was asked because of bugs, what about those UR R&D consoles with missing mods? Was that patched along with the missing mods problem? What will be done for people who crafted UR consoles that are missing the mod?

    I still say you should double check that [PvP Dmg] mod, make sure it's actually delivering. The other doubt since engines, deflectors, and shields are getting it, is each item with the mos supposed to hike damage output overall?

  • virusdancervirusdancer Member Posts: 18,687 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    Any mods you previously had on the item would remain on the item. New mods from upgrading would be based on the pool of mods available to a non-crafted item of the same type. Any unique crafting equipment like the Omni beams or the Science/Eng consoles already have their crafting-mod when created, and would not roll another one during the upgrade process.

    This is how it's intended to work - but if you see something else, if you see a random PvPDmg mod appear on an upgraded item, by all means let us know.

    Was along the lines of the following train of thought for folks, using an Omni as an example.

    If they craft a VR Omni, they're going to get the [Acc][Arc][Dmg] mods.
    If they craft a UR Omni, they're going to get those mods and a fourth random mod from the selection of Snare/Thrust/Pen/Over/PvP Dmg/PvP Res as well as the standard mods of Acc/CrtD/CrtH/Dmg. Wouldn't be able to get Rapid since it's a Beam.

    Now if they "lucked out" and did not craft the UR Omni, and just crafted the VR Omni - they wouldn't have to worry about PvP mods.

    Course, on the other hand - if somebody actually wanted either of those mods - they'd be SOL unless they actually crafted the UR version with it.

    That train of thought...

    Which also included what that meant for the Conductive RCS and Particle Field Exciter.

    Neither the VR Conductive nor VR Exciter have the additional mod...only the UR versions pull the additional mod. In looking at the upgrade window for the either at VR with UR as the possibility, there is no [???] displayed like there is in the crafting window.

    If it's a case that the upgrades only pull from the normal available mods for the base item - well, the base item for the Conductive is a RCS which has no mods and the Exciter is a Partigens with no mods. So upgrading a VR variant to UR would mean that the upgrade window not displaying the [???] is not a bug - but rather - it's intentional since the crafting mods would not apply to upgraded items and they would only pick from their base available mods (in this case - none)...sort of thing?

    Meh, my typical way too many damn words for a simple question. I'm going to smoke...
  • lucho80lucho80 Member Posts: 6,593 Bug Hunter
    edited September 2014
    If they craft a VR Omni, they're going to get the [Acc][Arc][Dmg] mods.
    If they craft a UR Omni, they're going to get those mods and a fourth random mod from the selection of Snare/Thrust/Pen/Over/PvP Dmg/PvP Res as well as the standard mods of Acc/CrtD/CrtH/Dmg. Wouldn't be able to get Rapid since it's a Beam.

    Reminder, some [Arc] weapons were missing the [Arc] mod, thus getting 4 mods plus [Arc]

  • qjuniorqjunior Member Posts: 2,023 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    As long as those PvP mods stay away from my stuff, I don't care. They would essentially be useless to me, as I do not participate in PvP. I'm not planning on crafting weapons, already got those. :o
  • thisslerthissler Member Posts: 2,055 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    If it works like a [Dmg] mod you want it.

    Unless of course you're a member of the [Dmg] deniers group.
  • tinead51tinead51 Member Posts: 449 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    They call it "Tenacity" in Neverwinter... STO, just Neverwinter with a different skin these days. ;)
  • lucho80lucho80 Member Posts: 6,593 Bug Hunter
    edited September 2014
    Ok, I just chatted with Mini. He loves getting more and more damage, so he has parsed the [PvP Dmg] weapons. It seems they don't work because when he parsed it, he actually got the same damage with or without it. (actually less since you loose a CrtD mod)

    Again Hawk, I think those PvP mods deserve a 2nd look, just to make sure they're not bugged.

    And again, was the intent of them to buff overall damage with each one slotted?

    Example: I slot 6 weapons and shields, engines, and deflector (9 items), I get +27% damage? It's the only way it makes sense if you're allowing non-weapons to have it.

  • saedeithsaedeith Member Posts: 602 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    tinead51 wrote: »
    They call it "Tenacity" in Neverwinter... STO, just Neverwinter with a different skin these days. ;)


    Sadly, it is looking like that is the case.
  • welcome2earfwelcome2earf Member Posts: 1,737 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    thissler wrote: »
    If it works like a [Dmg] mod you want it.

    Unless of course you're a member of the [Dmg] deniers group.

    Well there's a thought: Make the PvP Mods act like a [DmgX] insofar as it is a DmgAND a Dmg-People-mod? this way even though you get a ****e DMG mod, it is still useable.
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  • lucho80lucho80 Member Posts: 6,593 Bug Hunter
    edited September 2014
    Note: You two stop your squabbling for a sec, I do have a serious question here. Personally, I'm fine with the mod as long as it actually works.

    Ok, I just chatted with Mini. He loves getting more and more damage, so he has parsed the [PvP Dmg] weapons. It seems they don't work because when he parsed it, he actually got the same damage with or without it. (actually less since you loose a CrtD mod)

    Again Hawk, I think those PvP mods deserve a 2nd look, just to make sure they're not bugged.

    And again, was the intent of them to buff overall damage with each one slotted?

    Example: I slot 6 weapons and shields, engines, and deflector (9 items), I get +27% damage? It's the only way it makes sense if you're allowing non-weapons to have it.

  • adjudicatorhawkadjudicatorhawk Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    lucho80 wrote: »
    Example: I slot 6 weapons and shields, engines, and deflector (9 items), I get +27% damage? It's the only way it makes sense if you're allowing non-weapons to have it.

    Yep, that's how it's intended. I'll take a look at them again as soon as I have time.
    Jeff "Adjudicator Hawk" Hamilton
    Systems Designer - Cryptic Studios
    Twitter: @JeffAHamilton
  • adjudicatorhawkadjudicatorhawk Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    Well there's a thought: Make the PvP Mods act like a [DmgX] insofar as it is a DmgAND a Dmg-People-mod? this way even though you get a ****e DMG mod, it is still useable.

    It's a reasonable thought for weapons, but doesn't work for non-weapons - they'd become BiS for PvE DPS. My intent with the PvP Dmg and PvP Res mods was to be able to control PvP burst damage max potential without the need to alter PvE damage dealing.
    Jeff "Adjudicator Hawk" Hamilton
    Systems Designer - Cryptic Studios
    Twitter: @JeffAHamilton
  • welcome2earfwelcome2earf Member Posts: 1,737 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    It's a reasonable thought for weapons, but doesn't work for non-weapons - they'd become BiS for PvE DPS. My intent with the PvP Dmg and PvP Res mods was to be able to control PvP burst damage max potential without the need to alter PvE damage dealing.

    Oh, gotcha. Well, there has to be a way to at least make PvP mods not entirely useless for a gameplay that is by definition voluntary and solo only played by the vast minority.

    Well, right now you have similar mechanics for say, Polaron weapons, where the weapon disable 1/2 duration against meatbags. Something similar where its just a normal [Dmg] mod against NPCs and 2x against meatbags? What other items have a PvP-only mod?
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  • bareelbareel Member Posts: 3 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    You shouldn't be getting any of the crafting-specific mods out of Upgrade system. Is this behavior you are seeing?

    No but I wasn't sure if it was supposed to be in there or not. Good call on not allowing it to be in the upgrade pool thank you. Although I do have to admit I have not yet dabbled with the upgrade system as I am not welcome on Tribble and am holding off on holodeck for now as I'm not the early adopter of new things type.
  • aguspvpheroaguspvphero Member Posts: 1 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    It's a reasonable thought for weapons, but doesn't work for non-weapons - they'd become BiS for PvE DPS. My intent with the PvP Dmg and PvP Res mods was to be able to control PvP burst damage max potential without the need to alter PvE damage dealing.

    Instead of adding mods to fix the powercreep in pvp, balance the game so there is no power creep. No matter how mods you add, things like elachi weapons, proton barrage, etc that have 100% of the shield penetration ruin the balance. Adding specific mods for PvP won't solve it

    And the curious part, is that 90% of those broken things, aren't used in PvE at all. Who want proton barrage on PvE? nobody.

    Instead of adding PvP resistences, why don't limit some powers to PvE only? that is the best solution i can think off. PvE players will be happy with they powers, and PvP players won't be affected at all.
  • lucho80lucho80 Member Posts: 6,593 Bug Hunter
    edited September 2014
    Yep, that's how it's intended. I'll take a look at them again as soon as I have time.

    Thanks, that finally answers the long standing question with this mod.

  • welcome2earfwelcome2earf Member Posts: 1,737 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    Yep, that's how it's intended. I'll take a look at them again as soon as I have time.

    Thanks, mang. Even if its the results i don't *personally* desire, the fact you're telling us you're looking into it helps.
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  • walshicuswalshicus Member Posts: 1,314 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    Yep, that's how it's intended. I'll take a look at them again as soon as I have time.

    I think just having that in the item's tooltip would go a long way. :)
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  • guilli88guilli88 Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    It's a reasonable thought for weapons, but doesn't work for non-weapons - they'd become BiS for PvE DPS. My intent with the PvP Dmg and PvP Res mods was to be able to control PvP burst damage max potential without the need to alter PvE damage dealing.


    My biggest issue is that we cannot choose not to have pvp stat on items I have no intention of using in PVP (I don't even pvp).

    This is going to lead to a lot of frustration to players that want to min/max. I, along with others, are going to be deleting really good endgame upgraded items because it has a pvp stat. We don't have to do that, sure, but that doesn't make it any less frustrating for out gameplay.

    Where before we had the chance of getting a useful stat all the time, for PVE content there's now a chance that the entire upgrade process was a massive waste of time and resources.

    I full understand and endorse the pvp stat, for the pvp players. But surely there is a better way of implementing. Perhaps have tech accelerators that forbid pvp stats from showing up.

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  • prediwave1prediwave1 Member Posts: 75 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    Perhaps this is an underhanded way to make [crtd]x5 weapons extremely rare. They are flooding so many worthless mods the odds of getting 5 good ones is approaching zero.
  • virusdancervirusdancer Member Posts: 18,687 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    prediwave1 wrote: »
    Perhaps this is an underhanded way to make [crtd]x5 weapons extremely rare. They are flooding so many worthless mods the odds of getting 5 good ones is approaching zero.

    Might want to read this other thread where Hawk was commenting...

    http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=1224901
  • generalklanggeneralklang Member Posts: 1 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    lucho80 wrote: »
    Dev please explain why the [PvP Dmg] mod was added to everything and what does it do!

    In response to your questions:

    Why was it added to everything? Cause someone got confused over at cryptic one day and decided that PVP is the future of STO.

    What does it do? Nothing for people who don't PVP, and apparently not a lot for those few that do.
  • thisslerthissler Member Posts: 2,055 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    It's a reasonable thought for weapons, but doesn't work for non-weapons - they'd become BiS for PvE DPS.

    Roger that.

    My intent with the PvP Dmg and PvP Res mods was to be able to control PvP burst damage max potential without the need to alter PvE damage dealing.

    And please don't try this. Balancing an avoidance model with resistance just doesn't work. I'm certain that is what has put us where we are right now. Resistance models work great over any time frame with a known hit rate. Not so much in STO with the huge swings in hit/miss.

    There wouldn't be much of a need to even attempt that if players in STO were educated that 'resistance' and 'defense' are two very different things.

    Burst damage is a very one dimensional statement. It doesn't seem to take into account that it takes two players to generate that situation. An attacker can load up all his abilities and cut loose on two different targets. An unprepared target will suffer 'burst damage'. A prepared target will not suffer at all.

    If you honestly wish to avoid burst damage, but somehow make normal white damage useful, just ditch your current two roll system, and just hit cap all tactical abilities. Everything is auto hit like FAW. It will become reasonably easy to balance, and really boring.
  • kaarruukaarruu Member Posts: 131 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    The PvP damage mod worries me a bit, in context of the gear upgrade system.

    Let's say I sink resources into upgrading a Romulan plasma rifle no longer available (as far as I know), it goes up in rarity and gains the dreaded PvP damage mod. I'll have a character-bound item with a mod that's absolutely useless to me, after having spent quite a load of resources upgrading it. I won't be able to replace this particular item or get rid of the useless mod.

    The randomness present in crafting/upgrading is unpleasant enough as it is, but adding modifiers that benefit only a fraction of the playerbase makes it much worse, to the point that I think I'll wait and see if a solution is created before putting any serious effort into upgrading stuff.

    Adjudicator, would it be feasible to just alter the way the Dmg mod itself works? If target is a player, 5% bonus damage instead of 2%, for example.
  • daveynydaveyny Member Posts: 8,222 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    Why not add a way to pay 100 dilithium (A MINIMAL Amount) to remove a MOD you don't want?

    It would be a PITA to have to do that after spending a ton to Up-grade, but at least the weapon wouldn't become "useless".

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  • virusdancervirusdancer Member Posts: 18,687 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    Since people keep making the same complaint over and over again in this thread as if the counter to the complaint had not been offered before they made their additional complaints after the counter was offered to the initial series of complaints...

    Here it is again...
    Any mods you previously had on the item would remain on the item. New mods from upgrading would be based on the pool of mods available to a non-crafted item of the same type. Any unique crafting equipment like the Omni beams or the Science/Eng consoles already have their crafting-mod when created, and would not roll another one during the upgrade process.

    This is how it's intended to work - but if you see something else, if you see a random PvPDmg mod appear on an upgraded item, by all means let us know.
  • welcome2earfwelcome2earf Member Posts: 1,737 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    kaarruu wrote: »
    Dmg mod itself works? If target is a player, 5% bonus damage instead of 2%, for example.

    This is basically what I suggested, which took us to this...
    T93uSC8.jpg
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