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Why is TDF OP? (nebula console)

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  • captainwessoncaptainwesson Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    I would have no problem at all if the KDF got the TDF console. In fact I would welcome it. It would help balance abilities on both sides. And lately every thread I've read about in PvP is about having balance. The console lasts only a few seconds, but it IS useful in finding cloakers/vapers. And rommys play both sides. So why shouldn't klinks get a burst of sight, too? Sure, it only seems fair. Why should fed rommys have a better advantage than KDF rommys?

    Is it OP? Heck no. Is it useful? Of course it is, but only to a specific build to counter vapes. It isn't really that useful for anything else. Does it reset all boff powers? Does it reduce everything to global? Does your damage become supper-bosted by adding it to your ship? Does it add magical power to all your ship subsystems by somehow channeling it back through your weapons as they hit your enemy?

    That being said, others have already made this point, but I will say it again. Why shouldn't someone who maxes out sensors be able to cancel out someone who maxes out stealth? (All things being equal...) Yes I am aware that stealth and detection are tied together in a complex formula, but let's see if we can simplify the main concept for a second. If you don't use cloak, I can see you from 20k out at least. Because without cloak/mask, there's no stealth, and no need for sensors to see that stealth. So it's even, 0-0. If you cloak for 100 points and I can see 100 points worth of stealth, then shouldn't I be able to see you at 20k still? All things being equal? And if I can only see 50 points worth, then I wouldn't see you til 10k.

    Yes these are arbitrary numbers, but the example should make sense in the fact that whatever you invest in stealth, if I invest that much in sight, why shouldn't I see you the same as I normally would?

    Unless you think that min-maxing should only be allowed for cloakers and not snoopers, so that cloakers have an innate advantage...but surely you wouldn't suggest such an unbalanced concept.

    And yes, fix the swapping and such, and then we have the beginnings of a balanced game when it comes to cloaks and snoops :D
  • capthachicapthachi Member Posts: 65 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    I'll go ahead and name myself in that first post. I 100% support klinks getting TDF. My max burst detection of 28km is with 6 points in sensors and 4 mk12 sensor consoles. I'm sure with embassy sensor probes I could get 30km+ stealthsight. Is that OP? No, and this is why:

    1) it is a very short duration with a long cool down
    2) I do almost no dmg. I play this roll to control vapers that would otherwise run over a team.
    3) Vapers trade off defense for high spike dmg, enough to kill most in one pass, while I trade offense for a defensive team roll
    4) passive detection sucks, only getting about 5km stealthsight Is low enough for a vaper to get in position and leave me with very little time to counter a vape attempt.

    And earlier it was said I run a healer build. That's not even close. My heals are tss, hazards, aux2sif, and Sci team. When I'm in my defensive setup. That setup limits my stealthsight to 18ishkm. So it's all a trade off.

    Rom cloak gives 6000 stealth if I'm not mistaken. With max detection up I can usually see through it if it's used by someone who's not speced into stealth. Same with feign death and that photonic displacement console. (I think that's the name)
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  • nandospcnandospc Member Posts: 1,256 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    I know, it's very powerful this console with the right setup, but I suggest to RUN and wait for console CD if you are a cloaker... possibly RUN faster than Hank :D
  • antoniosalieriantoniosalieri Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    capthachi wrote: »
    Rom cloak gives 6000 stealth if I'm not mistaken.

    You are the stacking of stealth buff from boffs was fixed some time ago. Of course as is always the case Cryptic lacked the fortitude to fix all boff stacking while they where doing it. A half fast job as always.
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  • ilhanskilhansk Member Posts: 620 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    nandospc wrote: »
    I know, it's very powerful this console with the right setup, but I suggest to RUN and wait for console CD if you are a cloaker... possibly RUN faster than Hank :D

    Good luck on that :P

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  • magniacapramagniacapra Member Posts: 543 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    Why are people complaining about a Zen Store console being required to counter an innate ship ability???

    Not that TDF should even cost Zen! The fact that you have to lose a console slot to fit a device with a 2 minute CD to detect ships with built in cloaks is dumb enough.
  • wolverine595959wolverine595959 Member Posts: 726
    edited April 2014
    Personally i would like console like TDF with similar functions maybe different innates, since cloaking race should sort of have a leg up on cloak detection, on that point I find it laughable that the KDF has never had this feature.
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  • virusdancervirusdancer Member Posts: 18,687 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    capthachi wrote: »
    Rom cloak gives 6000 stealth if I'm not mistaken.

    Base Cloak (no Aux - kind of impossible, but it's still the base number): 4925
    +125 Aux (1 Aux = 1 Stealth Value): 5050
    +Sub/Infil/Pirate (does not stack - provides +150 Starship Stealth or +75 Stealth Value): 5125
    +Warbird (provides +55 Stealth Value compared to a non-Warbird): 5180

    @100 Singularity Charge (5 pips), there is a -400 Steatlh Value debuff - which would drop them down to 4780. Warbird Stealth may start out +55 compared to non-Warbird Stealth, but it doesn't take much Singularity Charge to make it worse instead.

    Sub/Infil/Pirate used to stack, meaning you could have (6 * 150 / 2) +450 Stealth instead of +75 Stealth. That used to take Stealth to 5555. That was an additional 7.5km of Stealth Range...so yeah, one could see why that was changed.

    1 Starship Stealth skill provides 0.5 Stealth Value. To get from 5180 to 6000 would require 1640 Starship Stealth...that being said though, iirc QSM provides 6k Stealth during its brief duration - kind of like Feign Death provides over 7k Stealth during its 30s or less.

    When they first introduced the Embassy BOFFs, Sub was a percentage - caused way too high Stealth Values. That was changed last March to provide a flat, smaller benefit. Around that time there was also an issue with the B'rel EBC - where not only could they steal the beer from your fridge, they could rig the fridge to explode without you seeing them - they didn't blip while attacking. That was fixed. After the introduction of LoR with the BOFFs with both Sub and Op, they realized that it was providing to much Stealth and stopped the stacking of Sub/Infil/Pirate.
    That being said, others have already made this point, but I will say it again. Why shouldn't someone who maxes out sensors be able to cancel out someone who maxes out stealth? (All things being equal...) Yes I am aware that stealth and detection are tied together in a complex formula, but let's see if we can simplify the main concept for a second. If you don't use cloak, I can see you from 20k out at least. Because without cloak/mask, there's no stealth, and no need for sensors to see that stealth. So it's even, 0-0. If you cloak for 100 points and I can see 100 points worth of stealth, then shouldn't I be able to see you at 20k still? All things being equal? And if I can only see 50 points worth, then I wouldn't see you til 10k.

    Yes these are arbitrary numbers, but the example should make sense in the fact that whatever you invest in stealth, if I invest that much in sight, why shouldn't I see you the same as I normally would?

    Perception starts at 5000.
    Stealth starts at 4925 (0 Aux).

    Take each to 125 Aux.

    Sci Vessel: 5075
    non-Sci Vessel: 5025
    Stealth: 5050

    The non-Sci Vessel cannot see the cloaker. The Sci Vessel can see the cloaker at 0.5km.

    That's how it starts off...why? Because the cloak itself was an investment - it required giving something up. Yeah, yeah - I know - we all know...look at a Fedscort and look at a Warbird...where did they give anything up, right? Look at a Fedscort and a Raptor...look at a Raptor and Warbird...heh, think Feds have a reason to complain? Nah, man - KDF have a massive reason to complain - lol...meh.

    Say we add 99 Starship Sensors and 99 Starship Stealth to those numbers above.

    Sci Vessel: 5149
    non-Sci Vessel: 5050
    Stealth: 5100

    The non-Sci Vessel still cannot see the cloaker. The Sci Vessel can now see the cloaker at just under 1km.

    Say we add in 3x +30 consoles of the respective skill for each to those numbers.

    Sci Vessel: 5217
    non-Sci Vessel: 5072
    Stealth: 5145

    The non-Sci Vessel still cannot see the cloaker - in fact, you can see where it's getting harder for the non-Sci Vessel to see. The Sci Vessel on the other hand can now see the cloaker at 1.44km - the Sci Vessel is getting better at seeing the cloaker.

    Enter gear like the TDF, Jem/Rom Deflectors...a ship potentially giving something up to see better like the other ship gave something up not to be seen...and you're getting into a more balanced dance. Thing is, with gear switching - they're not always giving it up like the other ship is. Yeah, yeah - again - everybody knows Warbirds screwed this all up; but as long as the KDF still runs their crappy cloaks and ships by comparison - they can't be ignored in the discussion.

    The guy with TDF can run a [SciCdr] Deflector and 2pc MACO to use the TDF more often without having to switch it out. Those do nothing for the guy with a Standard Cloak that can't cloak in combat - out of the 31 KDF boats that can cloak, only 6 have a Battle Cloak...the other 25 are Standard Cloaks. It's the Roms that have 28 boats with Battle Cloaks.

    Which gets into the Feds only having TDF and how it puts the KDF behind...cause if you look back at the way the Perception thing was going for Sci Vessels vs. non-Sci Vessels, you also have to look at the fact that Feds have 23 Sci Vessels and the KDF has 7. And they've only got 7 because of the 4 DSDs that were added recently, it was 19 to 3.

    So yeah, even in giving the TDF to the KDF as well - well, they'd still be behind in the Sci Vessel department...but they wouldn't be as far behind as they are right now.

    But then there's still what I see as an elephant in the room.

    The +Stealth from the Rem/Rom Deflectors does not work.
    The +Stealth from EPtA does not work.

    There are bugs that need to be fixed...before all sorts of balancing issues can really be addressed in the discussion of Perception vs. Stealth.

    Rem gives +30 Stealth.
    Rom gives +15 Stealth and +2% Stealth Detection. 2% Stealth Detection is way better than 15 Stealth.

    EPtA1 gives 3km Perception Range (+150 Perception) and +60 Stealth (skill?value?). 60 Stealth, whether skill or value is nowhere near as good as the 3km. Cause you're either looking at 1.2km or 0.6km of Stealth Range vs. 3km of Perception Range.

    But again, neither the Rem/Rom Deflectors nor EPtA are actually even providing their +Stealth bonuses.

    All in all, it kind of makes me laugh - sadly, mind you - thinking about the RvBing of the queues. How long before people go from not wanting to fight the KDF to not wanting them on their teams as weak links? Sure, KRoms with Elite Disruptors...but non-Rom KDF?

    Oh well...I typed far longer than I intended...
  • capthachicapthachi Member Posts: 65 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    So the test we did was a tvaro with all sro\subterfuge doff (I know they don't stack). 9 points in stealth and 50 aux

    While i had 6 points in sensors, 128 aux, tdf, Jem deflector, epta3, sensor scan, and 4 mk12 purple sensor probes. I lost him around 28km, when he lost me around 25km cause I was to far from him.

    We did a few others but this is the farthest I could see him. With embassy sensor probes and 9 points in sensors I'm sure it would reach 30km+

    In normal pvp I don't run any sensor probe consoles, and usually I see people between 20 - 25km. Roms at the lower end klinks at the upper end.
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  • rylanadionysisrylanadionysis Member Posts: 3,359 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    capthachi wrote: »
    I lost him around 28km, when he lost me around 25km cause I was to far from him.

    That was so hax man, i literally couldnt see you but you could see me (while i was cloaked) wtf

    Ill never get over that one.
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  • virusdancervirusdancer Member Posts: 18,687 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    That was so hax man, i literally couldnt see you but you could see me (while i was cloaked) wtf

    Ill never get over that one.

    There is going to be that aspect to things as well - depending on a person's hardware/settings - they might not be able to see somebody that somebody else can...simply because of hardware/settings.

    It's kind of like, have you noticed you'll catch a glimpse of red off to the side of your screen - so you know somebody's out there, but when you turn to look at them - you lose them? Turn to the side again, and there they are again off in the distance - just a name. You can't see them while looking at them, but you can see them when you're not looking at them. It's like...magic.
  • ursusmorologusursusmorologus Member Posts: 5,328 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    That was so hax man, i literally couldnt see you but you could see me (while i was cloaked) wtf

    Ill never get over that one.

    Ship size affects range of visibility
  • virusdancervirusdancer Member Posts: 18,687 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    size affects range of visibility

    Are you saying that Taylor's a C-cup while Rylana's a D-Cup?
  • rylanadionysisrylanadionysis Member Posts: 3,359 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    Ship size affects range of visibility

    I know, but i was in a tvaro and he a wells. my ship was even smaller than his.

    O_o

    The losing ships at distance wasnt what made me decide i am never fighting taylors sci on my vaper, >_> it was this realization he would be able to see me before i could even see him.

    Not cool.
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  • iskandusiskandus Member Posts: 1,062 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    tfomega wrote: »
    Now tell me,cryptic.. is this what you intended? 28K detection and I'm sure the only reason why that is the limit is due to the fact that once a player exceeds 28Km, they disappear from the visible screen (unless video options are modified to see further)

    Really cryptic? I can't counter this.. anything that doesn't have a counter even when I have maxxed my stealth options is OP.

    1) TDF does not provide 28KM of detection on its own, in fact, no where near such number, therefore to suggest any otherwise is incorrect and misleading

    2) You can in fact see a target beyond the 28KM range depending on a number of factors. Starship Sensor affects how far out you can see things, even objects that are not cloaked. Sci Captains who activate Sensor Scan will immediately notice their general perception dramatically increases and objects that were too far out are suddenly within the radar. In other cases, the size of the target plays a role as well. Scimitars are so big that they can be seen as far as 40KM+ away, as does a number of large size NPCs, e.g. Cubes, Gates, Borg Command Ships

    3) Starship Stealth doesn't scale proportionally vs. Starship Sensors. It is a design issue, nothing to do with TDF. A Cloak Hunter can in fact, without using TDF, have much higher Starship Sensor than all the Starship Stealth you could possibly fit onto your ship such that it would still look like your spec into Starship Stealth is not helpful. You are really barking at the wrong tree.
  • iskandusiskandus Member Posts: 1,062 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    tfomega wrote: »
    When he sees me at 28K, he moves in and then uses AOE on me to pull me out of cloak for his friends to pound on me. He's a sci healer.. no way of taking him out unless with 6 other guys not being distracted by the group he has with him.

    You are welcome to come to ker'rat and try if you want.

    The kind of snooper you described above is in fact not very dangerous, they lack the firepower to operate independently and require others to make the kill for them. On top of that, you could see them coming and react accordingly (e.g. run away) or jam sensor it and it will lose its tracking. When I was playing STO, my Romulan had a dedicated snooper build who was self-reliant. Its build looks somewhat like this but not exactly : Mini Exterminator


    To be an effective cloak hunter, the said ship needs to have teeth. TDF only plays a small part. The said ship still needs to carry enough firepower to take out the battlecloaker(s) within a few seconds or risk retaliation / returned fire. You are giving way too much credit to a single console who contributed only about 28 - 35% of the overall stealth detection on such build. There are many things that go into SDR, namely, the choice of deflector is very important, the overall skills level in Starship Sensors, Aux level, EPTA (require boff slot), Sensor Scan (Captain skill). If any of the above mentioned 5 elements is absent or otherwise neutralized / unskilled, then the whole SDR falls apart whether you have TDF or not.

    More than just the console, which far too many Klingons cry a river over in the forum, in game chats and especially in a thread like this one for nothing - the skill of the snooper is perhaps the most important of all. Primarily, stealth detection requires extremely precise timing, some intuition and careful observation of your surrounding. You are essentially a submarine in space if you have enhanced battlecloak or hide under MSE if you don't have a cloak. As a "submarine", you need to know when to activate your skills and when not to. As pointed out by VD and others, TDF produce a loud echo that can be heard within the vicinity of the ship using it. That audio clue can in fact scare away alert vapers / battlecloakers and cause your detection effort to fall apart. In addition to that, TDF without Sensor Scan is simply not going to get you very far but Sensor Scan has a longer CD and is not something you can spam because its duration is even shorter. Typically, a snooper will not activate both TDF and SS unless he has a visual on a target. Therefore, a snooper often has to rely on just TDF and EPTA for the initial detection given that both TDF and EPTA have a matching duration. This necessity will severely limit the range in which the cloaker(s) can be detected especially when they travel at Full Impulse while cloaked.

    Like I said, TDF only contributes about 30% to the overall SDR, it's definitely important but it's far from the only factor that determines whether a snooper build is effective or not. The best way to track a cloaker remains the use of Sensor Scan on the target directly. When a Target is sensor scanned, its Starship Stealth can drop from by 250 all the way to a wooping 1000. This is what truly enables cloak hunters to track their targets over long distance - not TDF.

    As for the ship that uses AOE to break your cloak, I don't understand why you let him do that to you. You know he is coming at you but apparently, you stood still for him to apply the AOE? What were you thinking? :confused: The best snooper - you wouldn't even know they are coming at you because the moment they open fire, you are dead already. Count yourself lucky that you have not run into one of those yet because if you are already crying over a 2nd tier snooper, likely just a beginner at snooping, I can't imagine how you would react vs. one of those snooping vapers.
  • capthachicapthachi Member Posts: 65 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    The size of a ship only effects how far you can see it if they are not cloaked.

    I was under the impression that it was easier to find cloaked scimitar than say a tvaro. So we set up a test. Both the scim and tvaro have the same points in stealth, run the same aux, have the same sro/subterfuge doffs. And I ran the same detection stuff for both. I lost them at the same exact range.

    I still feel it's easier to catch a cloaked scim over say a tvaro just because it's harder for the less maneuverable ship to get away, size not being a factor other than that.

    And for that guy that says I'm a 2nd tier snooper...lol your funny, I'm probably the most effective one in the game. Sure I could do more dmg if I want, but when you can go in, pull 4 cloakers out, and they all die, let me know. Being a detection build is a team thing. I looked into a tvaro like you posted, but it's not nearly as effective. Can I kill most cloakers on my own, no but since I run with a tac I don't need to. Also some of the other info you said is way wrong, but that's one of my secrets.
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  • iskandusiskandus Member Posts: 1,062 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    KDF need TDF for counter romulan vaper , the only way to counter vaper in a 5 vs 5 match is have TDF

    I am sure the same can be said about giving Aceton Assimilators and Elite Cheese Interceptors to Fed to counter the BFAW spamming.
  • marc8219marc8219 Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    iskandus wrote: »
    I am sure the same can be said about giving Aceton Assimilators and Elite Cheese Interceptors to Fed to counter the BFAW spamming.

    KDF hardly uses BFAW compared to feds, and they already have yellowstones, sure they don't drain weapons but are just as good for trolling. You are just used to having an unbalanced playing field where your cloak works but the other sides doesn't, which is ridiculous as the KDF side should have better cloaking then the fed side but its the opposite right now.
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  • iskandusiskandus Member Posts: 1,062 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    tfomega wrote: »
    OK.. then lets try another way...

    On my b'rel, I have:
    3 mk12 very rare stealth modules
    Rom subterfuge boff
    +26 stealth deflector
    9 points in stealth

    i am being detected at greater than 11KM. Not asking for perfect stealth, but just what do you propose I do when he can't be vaped and always has a group of tacs with him?

    Always running is not the answer.

    Why would I even invest in stealth when it is worthless with that console?

    You answered your own question, investing into Starship Stealth other than having a boff with + Starship stealth is a waste of resources. For the nth time, it has to do with STO's game design, nothing to do with the console. Cryptic designed the game in a way that skills into Starship Stealth is not properly scaled. Maybe that requires some tweaking but until they do, there is not much you can do other than respec your skills.

    On a Fleet Nebula with EPTA 3, TDF and TDG and Emission Seeking Torp, the SDR can easily go off the chart into 3000+ If the said ship hides using MSE, you wouldn't even know it's there. Such a build within the context of a Fed Premade will indeed make the life of cloakers very difficult, which is why STO should not be played in a Premade format as Premades will always break the game in so many possible ways.

    When I was playing STO, there was a German fleetmate who is a Rom Tact Vaper and his favorite pastime is make HOBO cry in Kerrat. Apparently, HOBO tears is a sought after commodity. He usually operates alone as our fleet is not a PvP fleet so I practiced in private sessions with him to prepare him to deal with snoopers in Kerrat. To test him in the most extreme circumstances possible, I used a Fleet Nebula with SDR that is off the chart in addition to having FBP III to make it extremely difficult for him to attempt vaping - you know what, he became so good at avoiding detection or handled being detected while dealing with FBP that killing HOBO became a piece of cake for him. I would often hear : "Another HOBO bites the dust" in our fleet chat from him while he is in Kerrat. I am not going to share what he did to handle detection whenever it is unavoidable given that's his trade secret but I will say the piloting skill and quick reactions are extremely important, as does being able to adapt quickly and you need to have a strategy. If you are stuck with the same old same old vaper mentality, i.e. coming to your target from behind and set up your attack, of course you are going to get nailed because your target can see you and some snoopers will deliberately lure you in in order to pounce you (e.g. they will hold fire at 10KM range until you get much closer by pretending they can't see).
  • iskandusiskandus Member Posts: 1,062 Arc User
    edited April 2014

    The vaper build is super predictable. All you have to do is nullify your cloak and your worthless. That isn't that stealth detection is OP... its that your build is super weak to it. Get detected get dead. On the other side of the coin. His build is pretty much worthless vs non cloaking ships most likely.

    Sounds like the perfect description of Mini to me, which is why he TRIBBLE and moans so much about TDF and K'Vork, even go as far as calling TDF a "hack" and not being in the same instance as K'Vork in Kerrat = "Troll Avoidance Upgrade". The OP just sounds like a latent Mini to me, TRIBBLE and moans about a console because his vaper build is being neutralized.
  • wolverine595959wolverine595959 Member Posts: 726
    edited April 2014
    what about the rommie T5 "cloak" can it be broken with SDR
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  • tfomegatfomega Member Posts: 812 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    iskandus wrote: »
    Sounds like the perfect description of Mini to me, which is why he TRIBBLE and moans so much about TDF and K'Vork, even go as far as calling TDF a "hack" and not being in the same instance as K'Vork in Kerrat = "Troll Avoidance Upgrade". The OP just sounds like a latent Mini to me, TRIBBLE and moans about a console because his vaper build is being neutralized.

    Hey K'vork.. not a vaper.. wasn't trying to kill him-- it is impossible, just trying to avoid detection.. i.e. point of this thread. Please reassess the context of the thread.

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  • wolverine595959wolverine595959 Member Posts: 726
    edited April 2014
    iskandus wrote: »
    Sounds like the perfect description of Mini to me, which is why he TRIBBLE and moans so much about TDF and K'Vork, even go as far as calling TDF a "hack" and not being in the same instance as K'Vork in Kerrat = "Troll Avoidance Upgrade". The OP just sounds like a latent Mini to me, TRIBBLE and moans about a console because his vaper build is being neutralized.

    Wow you must have thing for mini. you treat him worse than some of the known scripters in the game.
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  • virusdancervirusdancer Member Posts: 18,687 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    what about the rommie T5 "cloak" can it be broken with SDR

    I can't remember the actual value for it. If it's just ~6k Stealth, then folks could build to see the QSM cloak. The Feign Death cloak on the other hand - even with EPtA3, you'd still need over 3600 SDR to be able to see it...at zero range.
  • iskandusiskandus Member Posts: 1,062 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    marc8219 wrote: »
    KDF hardly uses BFAW compared to feds, and they already have yellowstones, sure they don't drain weapons but are just as good for trolling. You are just used to having an unbalanced playing field where your cloak works but the other sides doesn't, which is ridiculous as the KDF side should have better cloaking then the fed side but its the opposite right now.

    :confused:

    What do you think all the KDF carriers use other than pet spamming? Yep, BFAW. Which faction has the most carriers? Yep, KDF. Which type of hull is most likely to use BFAW? Carriers/Cruisers. I think you just slapped yourself in the face and it doesn't look good.

    Yellowstones are not very useful simply because few Fed ships have hangars and of those that do, they usually have no more than 1 hangar, which severely limits the number they can launch. Its weapons do almost no damage and the tractors can be countered in a gazillion ways and only stupid people will purposely fly their ship into stationary space plasma which does zero dmg btw. Most Feds don't use Yellowstone as their pets in PvP for these reasons, only some Klingons like yourself keep using this red herring / hyperoble to justify Klink's use of Elite Cheese Interceptors and other truly nasty pet spamming in game.

    KDF have better cloaks still, but Fed has always had an upper hand in cloak detection being technologically more advanced of the two. It's amazing to me you manage ton confuse the issue to this extent.
  • virusdancervirusdancer Member Posts: 18,687 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    tfomega wrote: »
    Hey K'vork.. not a vaper.. wasn't trying to kill him-- it is impossible, just trying to avoid detection.. i.e. point of this thread. Please reassess the context of the thread.
    Wow you must have thing for mini. you treat him worse than some of the known scripters in the game.

    C'mon, guys - you know the joking about PvE folks needing all sorts of things to take out NPCs? That's Isk and PvP...
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