Why do Escort Capts love to tank?

gilion · December 2012

I really dont get it. On my Eng I have my Threat Generation skill maxed so most of the time I can agro targets off my allies after just my first shot. But I keep finding these tac officers flying escorts that no matter how much I try to agro whats killing them I cant. The only reason I can come up with is that they also have their Threat skill set pretty high. But why? I see too many escorts that try to do both DPS AND tank.

Usually they do really well, for about 10 sec until all their buffs run out and then they turn to toilet paper. So I ask again, can any escort Captains out their tell me why you like to tank in your tiny ships so much? I mean I fly a massive cruiser that its only purpose is to scream "Hey shoot me shoot me!!" Why do you want to take my job?

hippiejon · December 2012

Because you are the exception to the rule, in that you have thought about team play, and are prepared to do the job of being the tank. Awesome. I hope I get to play with you some day. Players like you are rare.

I am set up to "tank" best I can till I blow up because most Cruiser players don't think like you.
Most players don't think toward team play sadly, and so the answer to your question is

Don't like it. Have just gotten used to it, because "team players" ,outside of fleet events with your premade team, don't really exist for the most part.

mwgacy1 · December 2012

gilion wrote: »

I really dont get it. On my Eng I have my Threat Generation skill maxed so most of the time I can agro targets off my allies after just my first shot. But I keep finding these tac officers flying escorts that no matter how much I try to agro whats killing them I cant. The only reason I can come up with is that they also have their Threat skill set pretty high. But why? I see too many escorts that try to do both DPS AND tank.

Usually they do really well, for about 10 sec until all their buffs run out and then they turn to toilet paper. So I ask again, can any escort Captains out their tell me why you like to tank in your tiny ships so much? I mean I fly a massive cruiser that its only purpose is to scream "Hey shoot me shoot me!!" Why do you want to take my job?

We don't, we just don't have a choice. An good Escort that's doing what it does can generate more threat than the average Cruiser with points in Threat Generation due to the extreme damage that Escorts can deal, there's not much they can do about it to reduce aggro.
On the other hand if you aren't holding aggro but want to help then I can't tell you how much easier it makes things for the Escort if the Cruiser throws heals and resists at me: hit me with ES, TSS or HE with the occasional Eng Team and I'll be right beside you killing everything that looks at you funny. Unfortunately I can't remember the last time I got a heal from a Cruiser, although Escort's are usually a little more free with their heals IME: they probably don't want to hold the aggro either.

quiscustodiet · December 2012

Are you sure they have Threat Control?

That's the thing, you never know if someone does or not. My Tac/'scort has 0 Threat Control, I take care to avoid the DOFF assignment that gives it and so on, but still... I always end up tanking, so we might have been in the same STF, you thinking I have Threat Control and I thinking you're not bothered about tanking and have none.
On my Cruisers, though, I have no difficulty holding Threat... when I engage soon enough (not always easy with Bortie).

Tips for better threat-generation:
1. You need to do some damage. Nobody's expecting you to rival the Escorts, but you still need to do some damage; so try run with 125 Weapon Power all the time. Of course, it's best if you max Shields as well; not that hard in a Cruiser.
Threat Control is a multiplier, if there's nothing to multiply, one generates little threat.

2. Distance, distance, distance.
Unless you're running a Torpedo build (mostly for SVs, not Cruisers), try to stay within 2-3km of your target.
You'll do more damage, thus you'll generate more Threat.
You'll also take more damage, but that's the point: if the whole team is staying 9.75km away from the Tac Cube, anyone can tank, even an Escort with almost no survival tools, no need for a big Cruiser; but up close, the big Cruiser makes a lot of difference.

3. Some Sci abilities generate a lot of Threat.
This isn't availlable to all Cruisers, but some of the higher-level Sci abilities (Grav Well, Tyken's...) seem to generate inordinate amounts of threat: even parsing terribly with a Sci/Sci build, I used to get the attention of enemies. Not mobs of them (obviously, an AoE will aggro them all), but big single targets like Gates and Tac Cubes.

So, if you have a Cruiser with a LC Universal, you could try it.

xantris · December 2012

I'd say maybe one in 50 cruiser pilots can actually consistently hold aggro off my escort, and I don't have any points in threat... and most of those cruisers are tacs running aggressive DPS platforms in addition to the threat skill. Oftentimes if its a gate or the ISE tac cube, I'll let the cruisers get a buffer before unloading; but it's just a matter of time. Anything else is easily tankable by an escort for extended periods of time.

Bottom line, an eng running a tank heavy build isn't going to generate enough threat against a top tier escort pilot, with or without the escort having threat control.

hereticknight085 · December 2012

Best way to generate and hold threat is to first off, have points in threat control. That's engi-cruiser 101. You have that down it seems, so good job. Secondly, heal your allies. As time goes on, your healing will cause you to be higher on the priority list, so that will allow you to draw aggro. Lastly, up close and personal, BFAW, and TS are great ways to hold aggro once you have it. If you can keep all your weapons on the target, it helps, since if you have threat control, and at least 90 weapons power, you can generate quite a bit.

And if an escort still draws aggro off of you, then that just means that either 1) they're an idiot and got points in TC, or 2) they just have that much raw firepower. If it's #2, then there really isn't much you can do.

ussultimatum · December 2012

quiscustodiet wrote: »

Are you sure they have Threat Control?

That's the thing, you never know if someone does or not. My Tac/'scort has 0 Threat Control, I take care to avoid the DOFF assignment that gives it and so on, but still... I always end up tanking, so we might have been in the same STF, you thinking I have Threat Control and I thinking you're not bothered about tanking and have none.
On my Cruisers, though, I have no difficulty holding Threat... when I engage soon enough (not always easy with Bortie).

Tips for better threat-generation:
1. You need to do some damage. Nobody's expecting you to rival the Escorts, but you still need to do some damage; so try run with 125 Weapon Power all the time. Of course, it's best if you max Shields as well; not that hard in a Cruiser.
Threat Control is a multiplier, if there's nothing to multiply, one generates little threat.

2. Distance, distance, distance.
Unless you're running a Torpedo build (mostly for SVs, not Cruisers), try to stay within 2-3km of your target.
You'll do more damage, thus you'll generate more Threat.
You'll also take more damage, but that's the point: if the whole team is staying 9.75km away from the Tac Cube, anyone can tank, even an Escort with almost no survival tools, no need for a big Cruiser; but up close, the big Cruiser makes a lot of difference.

3. Some Sci abilities generate a lot of Threat.
This isn't availlable to all Cruisers, but some of the higher-level Sci abilities (Grav Well, Tyken's...) seem to generate inordinate amounts of threat: even parsing terribly with a Sci/Sci build, I used to get the attention of enemies. Not mobs of them (obviously, an AoE will aggro them all), but big single targets like Gates and Tac Cubes.

So, if you have a Cruiser with a LC Universal, you could try it.

This is good advice.

Ignoring any of this as an Engineer in a Cruiser means that even a Tac with 0 points in threat control can in fact strip you of aggro.

xiphenon · December 2012

The sad fact is: Nobody needs an eng cruiser to tank. Any skilled tac escort pilot can tank as well an do much more damage. I'm a tac and fly an cruiser by my self, however, it is the fleet Vorcha battle cruiser with dual cannons. The damage output of the ship is close to any escort, but provide more survivability, combined with moderate turn rates. The fleet vorcha is however an exception among the cruisers.

Escpacially with beams as fed cruiser tend to use you will have problems to draw agro because of the low damage compared to cannons.

sollvax · December 2012

Said it before will say it again

Escorts and especially tac escorts EXIST to draw fire and protect the big guns
thats what escorts do

they run cover
you are basically a glorified fighter ship /gun ship

your main function in an escort is to engage smaller faster vessels so the big boys can pound the hell out of everything else

The Cruisers and the carriers those are the ships that win or lose the big battles

baudl · December 2012

sometimes i just can't help it. i tend to use torp spread and CSV, the result is aggro from 5+ targets without threatcontrol skilled in any shape or form.

i plan to get the thread reduction console as soon as i can afford it.

If i get aggro and see i'm out of heals i tend to run to a save distance, sometimes thats all it takes to tank a tac cube. I stay out of it's range, while the rest of the team can fire on it undisturbed. Once somebody from the team took aggro, i return with an alpha strike.

it is not ideal to be basically idle for 1 min, but on the otherhand i don't die and the rest of the team is undesturbed pounding the tac cube.

i do have an engi tank in a tac oddy though, which can basically park near an elite tac cube...without any great efforts to stay alive.

orondis · December 2012

Points in threat generation doesn't mean you'll automatically draw the aggro. If you have an escort on your team who is dealing high DPS, he may generate enough threat that EVEN if he has no points in threat generation, his threat level will be higher then yours.

This is because there is a huge discrepancy between the amount of damage an escort and Fed cruiser can do, especially if said escort is using dual heavy cannons.

As for tanking in an escort, with a little skill that's easy especially if you're flying the more tankier ones, like the Chimera. After all there isn't that much difference in cruiser/escort hull and shields and in some cases escorts can have more shields then a cruiser. This is why it's recommended to take an escort into an STF.

khamseenair · December 2012

It's not always the fault of the player. Personally, both of my escort Captains have no points in threat generation, but I do such high DPS that they still want to kill me even if somebody with higher threat is in the area. The system is broken, not the Captains.

gilion · December 2012

It seems that the answer I get most often is that Escorts by themselves do too much dmg. So if I remember correctly Cryptic added the Threat Control skill to help tanks keep agro. If thats true then it means that their math was way off and to fix it they need to increase the amount of threat the skill generates or (Im prob gonna get lynched for this) make Escorts weaker. Because to be honest, I understand they need to do as much dmg as possible, but I still find it stupid when I see a Defiant (smallest escort) kill a tac cube (second largest ship) in like 10 sec.

hereticknight085 · December 2012

gilion wrote: »

It seems that the answer I get most often is that Escorts by themselves do too much dmg. So if I remember correctly Cryptic added the Threat Control skill to help tanks keep agro. If thats true then it means that their math was way off and to fix it they need to increase the amount of threat the skill generates or (Im prob gonna get lynched for this) make Escorts weaker. Because to be honest, I understand they need to do as much dmg as possible, but I still find it stupid when I see a Defiant (smallest escort) kill a tac cube (second largest ship) in like 10 sec.

For starters the defiant was designed to fight the Borg originally. Secondly, the defiant is one of the most powerful ships in the game. And the defiant is designed for one thing only. Pure, uninhibited, straight out destruction. A good tac captain flying a fleet defiant can kill most targets in half a pass, and everything else in a full pass. APA3, FOMM, GDF, TT, CRF, APO3, you can burst almost anything down easily.

Just modify your weapons/power setup. If you have at least 100 weapons power, and points in tc, you can hold aggro even against those.

skyranger1414 · December 2012

gilion wrote: »

It seems that the answer I get most often is that Escorts by themselves do too much dmg. So if I remember correctly Cryptic added the Threat Control skill to help tanks keep agro. If thats true then it means that their math was way off and to fix it they need to increase the amount of threat the skill generates or (Im prob gonna get lynched for this) make Escorts weaker. Because to be honest, I understand they need to do as much dmg as possible, but I still find it stupid when I see a Defiant (smallest escort) kill a tac cube (second largest ship) in like 10 sec.

I'm going to tell you an open and well known "secret". Most of the cruiser pilots in the game don't actually know what they're doing. They think they do. They honestly, earnestly think they do, but they don't. They imagine Cruisers to be giant battleships which they are not. They believe, in their hearts and minds that the way they piloted during PvE levelling is good enough for everything. I can certainly understand that feeling, I myself levelled my first Tac in a cruiser because I couldn't figure out how to not get popped every other minute in an escort. Thing is, I saw a competent Escort pilot at lvl 50 and decided I wanted to learn to play, since clearly I was doing it wrong.... while a lot of others prefer to complain. Honestly learning to fly an escort has made me an overall better player. So much so that I had a very easy time learning how to REALLY fly a cruiser. The principles are unsurprisingly the same, the only difference where the relative strengths and weaknesses.

You are speccing into the Threat talent AND are looking to utilize a cruiser to its fullest potential tanking. That alone puts you way, way, WAAAAAAYY ahead of most cruser pilots (seriously, not kidding here!).

As to your original question... I understand some PvP players take the threat talent due to its inherent defensive bonus, so they're kinda stuck wiht it for PvE too. That may be what you're seeying.

What would I suggest? My own engi cruiser always keeps Weapons power at 123-125 and I like to get as close to what I'm tanking as possible while still flying circles around it at the maximun speed I can get away with. Naturally broadsiding the whole time. You'd be surprised how hard to make turn an Ody can be lol, even with some RCS consoles. Tac boff powers are limited in cruisers, but still always try to have at least APD and FAW. Use your doffs to support your damage dealing abilities more than your defences... cruisers are already very tanky (more so if its an Engi Cruiser) what you want to buff are areas you are weak in, such as damage dealing.

As far as weapons I always recommend the tried and true 6 beam arrays and 2 torps, half forward and half back. If possible get the Regent's saving grace (the 180 torp) so you add it to your broadsides.

Finally, always be cycling between copies of EPTS and EPTW, the level of each will depend on your preference, but always have them both up. I'm actually pretty much a baddie, so I tend to favor EPTS3 to give my cruiser a little edge, but if you're confident in your abilities many suggest giving priority to EPTW3.. or both if your ship can support it.

warpedcore · December 2012

I don't think the blame is squarely with the Cruiser pilots. I'm known to tank on my Engineer and DPS on my tactical officer. The problem I've noted as a tank with maxed out threat control... is that I barely ever get heals from the science officers. Granted, my skills and powers can usually carry me through an encounter, but to not get heals from the class which is dedicated to CC and support? What's the point of tanking? One of the major problems in this game is the lack of mutual support. DPS doesn't keep the healers clear of aggro, tanks don't watch healers and healers are out for themselves, or trying to DPS. It's a bloody mess.

A lot of cruiser pilots don't bother with Threat Control, because there is nothing in it for them. Why put your neck on the chopping block when no one is going to have your back?

sollvax · December 2012

A cruiser without threat control ( flown by someone who does not warrant dismissal for incompetence) Is a multi role warship

It can deal damage , control a zone , clear minefields, remove fighters , act as a strategic control point / node or simply a gun platform laying down a 360 field of fire

A Cruiser With threat control is an explosion waiting to happen as all the Fighter jocks in the escorts get trimmed and leave 40 agroed ships to go for the cruiser.

tebsu · December 2012

sollvax wrote: »

Said it before will say it again

Escorts and especially tac escorts EXIST to draw fire and protect the big guns
thats what escorts do

they run cover
you are basically a glorified fighter ship /gun ship

your main function in an escort is to engage smaller faster vessels so the big boys can pound the hell out of everything else

The Cruisers and the carriers those are the ships that win or lose the big battles

problem is, the big boys usually do not do any marginal damage. i fly a fleet defiant and am usually target no 1 without having any points in TC. I do a lot of damage and without my ship, a lot of STFs would have gone bad for some people. Thats good for me because if i work a bit harder, i can easily compensate a bad team, but since S7 and the stronger Borg, this doesnt make so much fun anymore so i dont play elite anymore.. because.. what for? i can get the same with normal STFs and if i want to have MKXII later on, well then i can do elite but until then, normal STFs are the way to go for me. I also currently have 2000 marks for Omega so it doesnt matter anyway..

hanover · December 2012

People might be misreading things when they see an escort trying to "tank."

The fact is, you can't count on landing yourself a decent pick-up team that includes people who both understand roles like "tank" or "healer," and will make an effort to fill those roles. So, we glass cannon captains are forced to balance our "damage dealer" role with the ability to resist damage and heal ourselves.

It's only gotten worse since the "we didn't boost Borg NPC attacks, honest" patch. :rolleyes:

sollvax · December 2012

Best Team I usually work with has one escort (U.S.S. Interceptor) whose primary role is back stop (short stop in baseball) if something gets past the rest of he picks it off

We have three Cruisers doing the Donkey work and a Carrier as our Central command vessel providing sci cover and giving the orders (if he is unavailable we have a guy who fills in with an Intrepid class )

point is we don't have tanks or healers or glass cannons
we do however have a 96% success rate

Some teams are Dps . Healer tank combos and those can work

One team I know of and have filled in for a missing member of relys on the X formation
variation of the so called fed ball
They have NO escorts but rely on mutual healing effects and a shed load of consumable assets

glassguitar · December 2012

I have zero points in Threat and still end up with all the aggro in STFs. If you can't do any damage worth noting all the threat control in the world won't help you. The good thing is I am expecting to puoll aggro and eventually get roasted and exploded so I bring components on every run.

bareel · December 2012

Why do I tank in my escorts in STFs? Depends on the ship/cap I'm on at the time but typically

1) I know I can tank and not explode against the target
2) I know my target will explode before I do
3) I know the damage output that I will bring before I explode is more important than me not exploding
4) I know I can tank long enough to deal my spike then Evasive my way to 11km and wait five minutes for the so called 'tank' to regain agro

Those are my typical reasons. Anyway the concept of a 'space whale tank' annoys me on a principle level.

bareel · December 2012

sollvax wrote: »

Best Team I usually work with has one escort (U.S.S. Interceptor) whose primary role is back stop (short stop in baseball) if something gets past the rest of he picks it off

We have three Cruisers doing the Donkey work and a Carrier as our Central command vessel providing sci cover and giving the orders (if he is unavailable we have a guy who fills in with an Intrepid class )

point is we don't have tanks or healers or glass cannons
we do however have a 96% success rate

Some teams are Dps . Healer tank combos and those can work

One team I know of and have filled in for a missing member of relys on the X formation
variation of the so called fed ball
They have NO escorts but rely on mutual healing effects and a shed load of consumable assets

Best STF teams I have ever found are 4 DPS heavy weights be them escorts, raptors, BoPs, BCs, or even a dread paired up with a single good carrier capt.

Never seen stuff die so freaking fast. Tank? Healer? Who needs 'em when the waves of spawns die before my first copy of tac team wears off

sollvax · December 2012

Earlier today I watched a Bird of prey take the full fire of three Tholian ships for over a minute

So if you are out there Commander Korran of the IKS Kestrel
Bloody well done sir

hanover · December 2012

I just want to add that I LOVE my spike damage from Beam Overload III on my Dual Antiproton Beam Bank. No, it's not the most efficient source of sustained DPS, but once in awhile I get a beautiful kill with it. Brings a tear to me eye.

redfriar · December 2012

What I've noticed is that a lot of regular escort captains tend to be A-type personalities. They get fixated on their methods. Unfortunately, STO's combat mechanics favor adaptability and quickly changing tactics. These A-type personalities form a rigid plan. It is no surprise the amount of frustration seen by these players. Although fixed roles like healer, tank and attacker may be a staple of other MMO's, this is really an unfavorable strategy in STO. The only way it sees any reliable degree of success is with a previously organized group of players and a previously determined mission... and to be honest, it is not the most reliable strategy.

What if I told you the damage potential of the majority of ships are pretty balanced (be they science vessel, escort or cruiser)? This is due to the needs of pvp balancing. It's all in how you play the ship, and if you are blowing up, you're doing it wrong. Words can not describe how entertaining it can be to bring this realization to escort captains using the least likely of vessels.

bareel · December 2012

redfriar wrote: »

What I've noticed is that a lot of regular escort captains tend to be A-type personalities. They get fixated on their methods. Unfortunately, STO's combat mechanics favor adaptability and quickly changing tactics. These A-type personalities form a rigid plan. It is no surprise the amount of frustration seen by these players. Although fixed roles like healer, tank and attacker may be a staple of other MMO's, this is really an unfavorable strategy in STO. The only way it sees any reliable degree of success is with a previously organized group of players and a previously determined mission... and to be honest, it is not the most reliable strategy.

What if I told you the damage potential of the majority of ships are pretty balanced (be they science vessel, escort or cruiser)? This is due to the needs of pvp balancing. It's all in how you play the ship, and if you are blowing up, you're doing it wrong. Words can not describe how entertaining it can be to bring this realization to escort captains using the least likely of vessels.

One minor disagreement with your post, in the majority of situations where the escort is allowed to 'keep on target' so to speak which is most of the time in an STF it will out damage the cruiser and sci vessel by around 20+% all else being equal.

However, if you do believe me to be wrong and can back it up with a standard cruiser build I'd love to give it a try and see for myself.

baudl · December 2012

sollvax wrote: »

Earlier today I watched a Bird of prey take the full fire of three Tholian ships for over a minute

So if you are out there Commander Korran of the IKS Kestrel
Bloody well done sir

bloody average...in no scenario the tholians have very strong ships, any escort could tank 3 of their dreadnoughts + some other smaller ones, if they actually survived the first scatter volley alpha strike (they normaly don't)
but i can see how a casual player can get impressed so easily by stunts like that.

sollvax · December 2012

Not "souped up Bird of prey"
Just Bird of prey
and he Took the hits

Why do Escort Capts love to tank?

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