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Possible early divergence in Kelvin-Timeline?

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  • mustrumridcully0mustrumridcully0 Member Posts: 12,550 Arc User
    sthe91 wrote: »
    Still wish that Anton Yelchin had not died. :(
    You're certainly not alone with that. I always get a little bit angry and sad at the same time when I am reminded of it. I really wish they'd make another Kelvin Timeline movie just to give him a nice Star Trek tribute. (And maybe build some fancy legend about the awesome work Chekov now does after leaving the Enterprise.)
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  • phoenixc#0738 phoenixc Member Posts: 738 Arc User
    edited September 4
    azrael605 wrote: »
    Umm, no, I used to converse regularly with Orci on the trekmovie message boards and he was very emphatic that it was not a parallel, it was the Prime past. Those comment threads still exist and can be rechecked at any time. I believe it was the very same thread where he told a "fan" to "TRIBBLE off", which lead to him losing the director seat for Beyond.

    I dunno where this crackpot stuff bubbles up from but when actual.proof exists to the contrary, yeah go try to sell the brooklyn bridge somewhere else.

    He was quoted as saying that in one of the major movie magazines (I do not remember which at the moment) during the early pre-release stuff. I remember it because it caused a bit of a flap in the boards I frequented at the time, and I ran into the same article not too long ago during a discussion of the same point in another thread here.

    It is possible it was a misquote or something to begin with, though the way Hollywood works it could be either way and Orci may have been showing solidarity later on or something.

    Also Kurtzman made comments that support it being Orci's original intention when he got tangled up trying to explain how time worked differently in the Kelvin timeline (which does seem a bit odd if it is a branch of the Prime timeline, though it is not completely implausable either), however he may have been passing the buck on that I suppose.

    On the other hand, no matter what Orci's original intention was, thevampinator is right that the predestination paradox disruption could be the cause of a lot of the incompatibilities between the Kelvin stuff before the Narada showed up and the things from the other Trek shows, especially since no one has come up with a reasonable way for the truly massive changes seen afterwards to have happened. In fact, that in-setting explanation fits the facts even better since it could also explain some of the other inter-show compatibility problems seen on other Treks.

    Realistically, the Narada came in and destroyed one Federation ship then took off for parts unknown until Spock showed up. Sure, James T. Kirk's parents were on it, and he did have a big impact on history later, but he didn't actually do anything significant before the Academy. And it is not like some weird mysterious thing coming out of nowhere and trashing a starship is anything that unusual for Trek, Starfleet would have barely noticed it and just stuck the incident report in the file with all the other unsolved screweyness instead of massively changing their operations and shipbuilding because of it.

    In fact, no single person should have had that kind of all encompassing impact no matter who they were (unless of course Q was on board and it gave him some really wicked ideas, but that is a copout at best) and it is unreasonable to assume that a big pack of key movers and shakers were onboard all at the same time. Yes, there is the butterfly effect, but it takes time to build up and spread out, time that was not available unless it toggled one of those predestination loops in some way and caused a chain reaction far enough back in time (and it could have been one that involved one of the Kirks).

    In fact, now that I think of it one good possibility comes to mind. If George Kirk died on the Kelvin then he and his family were not on Tarsis IV during the famine. If George Kirks actions there saved some people that would have otherwise been executed or otherwise died there, then maybe Kevin Riley did not survive (or without the tie to Kirk may have went to a different ship) to be the Ensign who, under the influence of polywater shut down the warp drive in an unstable orbit and forced Spock and Scotty to try an experimental quickstart formula which turned out to be a way to time travel as a side effect.

    Without the time travel incident the Enterprise may not have been on the right course to clip that neutron star that threw it back into the 1960s the first time, or Spock without the surprising results of the restart formula may not have had the key to figure out how to get back as quickly(or at all) once they got there which could have triggered some other paradox events. And if that isn't enough, they used the temporal experiences from those two events to do a deliberate jump to conduct the historical research mission where they intercepted Gary Seven and found they were a necessary part of the particular critical event in the 1960s that formed the plot of the episode.
  • phoenixc#0738 phoenixc Member Posts: 738 Arc User
    sthe91 wrote: »
    Still wish that Anton Yelchin had not died. :(
    You're certainly not alone with that. I always get a little bit angry and sad at the same time when I am reminded of it. I really wish they'd make another Kelvin Timeline movie just to give him a nice Star Trek tribute. (And maybe build some fancy legend about the awesome work Chekov now does after leaving the Enterprise.)

    True. Of course, in the Prime timeline a USS Chekov participated in the battle at Wolf359 which implies that the character did something remarkable enough to get a ship named after him there too.
  • shadowfang240shadowfang240 Member Posts: 33,221 Arc User
    yes - it's called 'being part of the flagship's senior staff'​​
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  • iamjmphiamjmph Member Posts: 133 Arc User
    azrael605 wrote: »
    Umm, no, I used to converse regularly with Orci on the trekmovie message boards and he was very emphatic that it was not a parallel, it was the Prime past. Those comment threads still exist and can be rechecked at any time. I believe it was the very same thread where he told a "fan" to "TRIBBLE off", which lead to him losing the director seat for Beyond.

    I dunno where this crackpot stuff bubbles up from but when actual.proof exists to the contrary, yeah go try to sell the brooklyn bridge somewhere else.

    He was quoted as saying that in one of the major movie magazines (I do not remember which at the moment) during the early pre-release stuff. I remember it because it caused a bit of a flap in the boards I frequented at the time, and I ran into the same article not too long ago during a discussion of the same point in another thread here.

    It is possible it was a misquote or something to begin with, though the way Hollywood works it could be either way and Orci may have been showing solidarity later on or something.

    Also Kurtzman made comments that support it being Orci's original intention when he got tangled up trying to explain how time worked differently in the Kelvin timeline (which does seem a bit odd if it is a branch of the Prime timeline, though it is not completely implausable either), however he may have been passing the buck on that I suppose.

    On the other hand, no matter what Orci's original intention was, thevampinator is right that the predestination paradox disruption could be the cause of a lot of the incompatibilities between the Kelvin stuff before the Narada showed up and the things from the other Trek shows, especially since no one has come up with a reasonable way for the truly massive changes seen afterwards to have happened. In fact, that in-setting explanation fits the facts even better since it could also explain some of the other inter-show compatibility problems seen on other Treks.

    Realistically, the Narada came in and destroyed one Federation ship then took off for parts unknown until Spock showed up. Sure, James T. Kirk's parents were on it, and he did have a big impact on history later, but he didn't actually do anything significant before the Academy. And it is not like some weird mysterious thing coming out of nowhere and trashing a starship is anything that unusual for Trek, Starfleet would have barely noticed it and just stuck the incident report in the file with all the other unsolved screweyness instead of massively changing their operations and shipbuilding because of it.

    In fact, no single person should have had that kind of all encompassing impact no matter who they were (unless of course Q was on board and it gave him some really wicked ideas, but that is a copout at best) and it is unreasonable to assume that a big pack of key movers and shakers were onboard all at the same time. Yes, there is the butterfly effect, but it takes time to build up and spread out, time that was not available unless it toggled one of those predestination loops in some way and caused a chain reaction far enough back in time (and it could have been one that involved one of the Kirks).

    In fact, now that I think of it one good possibility comes to mind. If George Kirk died on the Kelvin then he and his family were not on Tarsis IV during the famine. If George Kirks actions there saved some people that would have otherwise been executed or otherwise died there, then maybe Kevin Riley did not survive (or without the tie to Kirk may have went to a different ship) to be the Ensign who, under the influence of polywater shut down the warp drive in an unstable orbit and forced Spock and Scotty to try an experimental quickstart formula which turned out to be a way to time travel as a side effect.

    Without the time travel incident the Enterprise may not have been on the right course to clip that neutron star that threw it back into the 1960s the first time, or Spock without the surprising results of the restart formula may not have had the key to figure out how to get back as quickly(or at all) once they got there which could have triggered some other paradox events. And if that isn't enough, they used the temporal experiences from those two events to do a deliberate jump to conduct the historical research mission where they intercepted Gary Seven and found they were a necessary part of the particular critical event in the 1960s that formed the plot of the episode.

    This is all very true, but not even the biggest thing i can think of. The Temporal Cold war of the 22nd century was caused by various time travelers from the future(the 28th(Suliban's "benefactor") ,29th(na'khul) and 31st(Future UFP) century at the very least) and according to canon, the spehere builders were in the 22nd century but could see the future, using their future defeat at Procyon 5 to justify their manipulation of the xindi to attack earth. But, if the Kelvin timeline's future was changed by the incident in 2233(?) then the Temporal Cold War would have to have changed. There is no way the massive shift we see in the KT would lead to the exact same events, thus those future time travelers would not act in the exact same way. Not to mention other things like the one's you mentioned.

  • starkaosstarkaos Member Posts: 10,947 Arc User
    edited September 5
    In fact, now that I think of it one good possibility comes to mind. If George Kirk died on the Kelvin then he and his family were not on Tarsis IV during the famine. If George Kirks actions there saved some people that would have otherwise been executed or otherwise died there, then maybe Kevin Riley did not survive (or without the tie to Kirk may have went to a different ship) to be the Ensign who, under the influence of polywater shut down the warp drive in an unstable orbit and forced Spock and Scotty to try an experimental quickstart formula which turned out to be a way to time travel as a side effect.

    Without the time travel incident the Enterprise may not have been on the right course to clip that neutron star that threw it back into the 1960s the first time, or Spock without the surprising results of the restart formula may not have had the key to figure out how to get back as quickly(or at all) once they got there which could have triggered some other paradox events. And if that isn't enough, they used the temporal experiences from those two events to do a deliberate jump to conduct the historical research mission where they intercepted Gary Seven and found they were a necessary part of the particular critical event in the 1960s that formed the plot of the episode.

    If I remember correctly in the second novel of the Department of Temporal Investigations novels, the Kevin Riley incident fundamentally changed the Enterprise so that it could more easily time travel compared to other Starfleet ships. The Department of Temporal Investigations wasn't able to create time travel technology based on the Enterprise's experience until they used the Enterprise.
    iamjmph wrote: »
    This is all very true, but not even the biggest thing i can think of. The Temporal Cold war of the 22nd century was caused by various time travelers from the future(the 28th(Suliban's "benefactor") ,29th(na'khul) and 31st(Future UFP) century at the very least) and according to canon, the spehere builders were in the 22nd century but could see the future, using their future defeat at Procyon 5 to justify their manipulation of the xindi to attack earth. But, if the Kelvin timeline's future was changed by the incident in 2233(?) then the Temporal Cold War would have to have changed. There is no way the massive shift we see in the KT would lead to the exact same events, thus those future time travelers would not act in the exact same way. Not to mention other things like the one's you mentioned.

    Which is why I have constantly stated that Discovery is a sequel of Enterprise not a prequel of TOS.
  • iamjmphiamjmph Member Posts: 133 Arc User
    starkaos wrote: »
    iamjmph wrote: »
    This is all very true, but not even the biggest thing i can think of. The Temporal Cold war of the 22nd century was caused by various time travelers from the future(the 28th(Suliban's "benefactor") ,29th(na'khul) and 31st(Future UFP) century at the very least) and according to canon, the spehere builders were in the 22nd century but could see the future, using their future defeat at Procyon 5 to justify their manipulation of the xindi to attack earth. But, if the Kelvin timeline's future was changed by the incident in 2233(?) then the Temporal Cold War would have to have changed. There is no way the massive shift we see in the KT would lead to the exact same events, thus those future time travelers would not act in the exact same way. Not to mention other things like the one's you mentioned.

    Which is why I have constantly stated that Discovery is a sequel of Enterprise not a prequel of TOS.

    Err, not sure of the bearing of that but as discovery IS considered prime-timeline cannon, it's technically both. I think you mean that because of it's timing? I guess it leans more on the later series "cannon" rather than early "cannon".(im i spelling this right or am i mixing things up, should it be canon, or am i right in think that canon is the artillery piece and cannon is what is considered "real" in a story/series)...
    Just has nothing to do with Kelvin-Timeline.
  • starkaosstarkaos Member Posts: 10,947 Arc User
    iamjmph wrote: »
    starkaos wrote: »
    iamjmph wrote: »
    This is all very true, but not even the biggest thing i can think of. The Temporal Cold war of the 22nd century was caused by various time travelers from the future(the 28th(Suliban's "benefactor") ,29th(na'khul) and 31st(Future UFP) century at the very least) and according to canon, the spehere builders were in the 22nd century but could see the future, using their future defeat at Procyon 5 to justify their manipulation of the xindi to attack earth. But, if the Kelvin timeline's future was changed by the incident in 2233(?) then the Temporal Cold War would have to have changed. There is no way the massive shift we see in the KT would lead to the exact same events, thus those future time travelers would not act in the exact same way. Not to mention other things like the one's you mentioned.

    Which is why I have constantly stated that Discovery is a sequel of Enterprise not a prequel of TOS.

    Err, not sure of the bearing of that but as discovery IS considered prime-timeline cannon, it's technically both. I think you mean that because of it's timing? I guess it leans more on the later series "cannon" rather than early "cannon".(im i spelling this right or am i mixing things up, should it be canon, or am i right in think that canon is the artillery piece and cannon is what is considered "real" in a story/series)...
    Just has nothing to do with Kelvin-Timeline.

    The constant time travel in Enterprise with its Temporal Cold War changed the prime timeline so the events in TOS would be altered. So the timeline in TOS is not the same timeline as Discovery. The same could be said about the timeline in TOS and the timeline in Nemesis. Killing millions of people on Earth during the Xindi attack would result in certain characters in TOS not being born or having different ancestors, late 22nd Century and early 23rd Century technologies being erased from existence and new technologies being created, late 22nd Century and early 23rd Century art being erased from existence and new art being created, and numerous other changes to the timeline. Killing millions of people that shouldn't have died would have far more of an effect than one ship being destroyed by a time traveler.

    Cannon is the weapon and Canon is what is considered to be real in a story or series.
  • lianthelialianthelia Member Posts: 6,831 Arc User
    azrael605 wrote: »
    > @lianthelia said:
    > (Quote)
    >
    > It's JJ and company....little things like details and canon weren't important to them. If they understood canon then the Kelvin universe wouldn't exist.

    1. JJ had nothing to do with Beyond.
    2. Canon has been inconsistent and self contradictory since TOS.
    3. The first experimental ship ever seen in Trek, USS Excelsior, never had an NX prefix.
    4. It's Kelvin Timeline, not universe.

    Whatever, fact is if canon mattered at all, and JJ is someone who has made it known he wasn't a fan of Trek...Kelvin wouldn't exist. Or have you forgotten that there is a time patrol that would stop things like Nero's incursion.

    That's right....I forgot...canon doesn't matter at all to people like you. Too bad they didn't make Vulcans green or Klingons blue....oh right, Klingons are blue!
    #WithoutRespectWeReject
  • sthe91sthe91 Member Posts: 1,220 Arc User
    Canon does matter and I have no problem with the Kelvin timeline existing. Also, that branch is called Temporal Investigations that you call a time patrol. Contrary to you, the person who disagrees with you is not against canon. You do not know what is in that person's heart so do not use the true Scotsman fallacy. Being passionate is one thing being rude and insulting is another. Thanks. :)
    Where there is a Will, there is a Way.
  • jonsillsjonsills Member Posts: 8,648 Arc User
    It's part of the "canon" that there are in fact multiple timelines. This began with the TOS episode "Mirror, Mirror", in which it was established that there was an alternate timeline in which rather than a Federation, Earth (Terra to you, pal) founded an Empire.

    This became expanded even further in the TNG episode "Parallels", when Worf went sliding through a rather large number of alternities, winding up in one where he was first officer of the Enterprise under Capt. Riker.

    The existence of the timeline coded "Kelvin" fits in perfectly with this; the reason Timefleet (not DTI, that's a different thing) exists is to make sure the timeline we call "Prime" doesn't get pruned out of existence by a paradox or some such temporal filtering.

    Imagine time as a sort of massive river delta; as it flows, it forks and diverges. All the streamlets originate from the same river, but each follows a separate path to the sea. Sometimes a flow will cut back and merge with another; sometimes one will diverge so far from the river that it'll just peter out. The purpose of Timefleet is to ensure that the stream that goes to them doesn't get cut off by any other events. (The "Temporal Cold War" was the result of a number of downstream options fighting to make themselves the Prime; Daniels' group won out in the end, and the other futures were curtailed, but that was not preordained during the fight itself.) That doesn't mean that the other branchings of the river cease to be, just that they're completely separate.

    In this analogy, you can think of the Kelvin Incident as being akin to a small child coming along with a shovel and digging the beginning of a new channel from the old. The water will still follow both paths; Timefleet doesn't get involved unless the divergence threatens the existence of Prime, after all, and this clearly did not, any more than the differing history of Earth that resulted in the Terran Empire affected the history that led to the United Federation of Planets.
    Lorna-Wing-sig.png
  • iamjmphiamjmph Member Posts: 133 Arc User
    starkaos wrote: »
    The constant time travel in Enterprise with its Temporal Cold War changed the prime timeline so the events in TOS would be altered. So the timeline in TOS is not the same timeline as Discovery. The same could be said about the timeline in TOS and the timeline in Nemesis. Killing millions of people on Earth during the Xindi attack would result in certain characters in TOS not being born or having different ancestors, late 22nd Century and early 23rd Century technologies being erased from existence and new technologies being created, late 22nd Century and early 23rd Century art being erased from existence and new art being created, and numerous other changes to the timeline. Killing millions of people that shouldn't have died would have far more of an effect than one ship being destroyed by a time traveler.

    Cannon is the weapon and Canon is what is considered to be real in a story or series.

    Ok, first thanks for the clarification on canon.

    Secondly, While i find your opinion valid and can kinda see where you are coming from, I'm pretty sure it was Daniel's job to prevent that from happening, and he seemed to believe he had. Of course if the timeline DID change because of the TCW Daniel's database would change so it would look like it. So... while i can see it going that way, i lean more towards the prime-timeline being unchanged.
    I just think the discovery team took the easy way out, trying to look cool and "modern" rather than retro. The TOS style could have been done with modern technology, it just wouldn't look good to the younger crowd who they are targeting. And decided that canon was what they said it was as the current "creators".

  • phoenixc#0738 phoenixc Member Posts: 738 Arc User
    edited September 5
    iamjmph wrote: »
    starkaos wrote: »
    The constant time travel in Enterprise with its Temporal Cold War changed the prime timeline so the events in TOS would be altered. So the timeline in TOS is not the same timeline as Discovery. The same could be said about the timeline in TOS and the timeline in Nemesis. Killing millions of people on Earth during the Xindi attack would result in certain characters in TOS not being born or having different ancestors, late 22nd Century and early 23rd Century technologies being erased from existence and new technologies being created, late 22nd Century and early 23rd Century art being erased from existence and new art being created, and numerous other changes to the timeline. Killing millions of people that shouldn't have died would have far more of an effect than one ship being destroyed by a time traveler.

    Cannon is the weapon and Canon is what is considered to be real in a story or series.

    Ok, first thanks for the clarification on canon.

    Secondly, While i find your opinion valid and can kinda see where you are coming from, I'm pretty sure it was Daniel's job to prevent that from happening, and he seemed to believe he had. Of course if the timeline DID change because of the TCW Daniel's database would change so it would look like it. So... while i can see it going that way, i lean more towards the prime-timeline being unchanged.
    I just think the discovery team took the easy way out, trying to look cool and "modern" rather than retro. The TOS style could have been done with modern technology, it just wouldn't look good to the younger crowd who they are targeting. And decided that canon was what they said it was as the current "creators".

    Technically it was Daniel's job to protect the future he came from, not necessarily all the details of the past, and he said as much to Archer while trying to convince him that they had a common cause. A certain amount of variance along the way was acceptable as long as it lead to the same future.

    The changing database thing is actually integral to the idea of time police. You have one core temporally shielded and one that isn't and then compare the two to find the differences.

    True, the Discovery team did take the easy way out of making DSC look very generic and derivative, but then again Moonves was apparently just trying to cash in on the name and huge fanbase while trying to NOT actually do Star Trek (which back in the early to mid 2000s he stated that he hated even more than other sci-fi). Luckily saner heads are now at the helm and DSC has been doing damage control since he left which led to the much better second season so far.

    Also, I do not think "retro" would be a problem with the younger crowd considering retro styling in sci-fi is currently in fashion as movies like Valerian and Jupiter Ascending illustrate. What turns some of the younger audiences off about TOS is the very poor production values of '60s TV which included a lot of kludges that had to be done when they made the sets, not the designs themselves.

    In fact, the second season DSC Enterprise bridge set shows that the original designs hold up rather well even without trying to get rid of all of the kludges. One nice thing on the DSC Enterprise bridge is seeing the semicircular control panel surfaces in front of the chairs light up like they were supposed to in TOS but they had to keep the lights off or it would start the transparencies burning after twenty to thirty seconds (the jewel buttons were more resistant to the heat which is why they were the only things they actually lit on those parts of the surface in the show as it aired.

    What was in fashion (and still is to large degree now) when DSC was in development in 2017 was/is long-knap velvet like the original velveteen TOS uniforms (in fact, the minidress and miniskirt is back in fashion as well) unlike the stiff '80s style upholstery-looking double-knit fabric unisex suits and metallic bedazzling of the DSC uniforms. If DSC was trying to avoid "retro" they totally missed the mark there.
  • starkaosstarkaos Member Posts: 10,947 Arc User
    iamjmph wrote: »
    starkaos wrote: »
    The constant time travel in Enterprise with its Temporal Cold War changed the prime timeline so the events in TOS would be altered. So the timeline in TOS is not the same timeline as Discovery. The same could be said about the timeline in TOS and the timeline in Nemesis. Killing millions of people on Earth during the Xindi attack would result in certain characters in TOS not being born or having different ancestors, late 22nd Century and early 23rd Century technologies being erased from existence and new technologies being created, late 22nd Century and early 23rd Century art being erased from existence and new art being created, and numerous other changes to the timeline. Killing millions of people that shouldn't have died would have far more of an effect than one ship being destroyed by a time traveler.

    Cannon is the weapon and Canon is what is considered to be real in a story or series.

    Ok, first thanks for the clarification on canon.

    Secondly, While i find your opinion valid and can kinda see where you are coming from, I'm pretty sure it was Daniel's job to prevent that from happening, and he seemed to believe he had. Of course if the timeline DID change because of the TCW Daniel's database would change so it would look like it. So... while i can see it going that way, i lean more towards the prime-timeline being unchanged.
    I just think the discovery team took the easy way out, trying to look cool and "modern" rather than retro. The TOS style could have been done with modern technology, it just wouldn't look good to the younger crowd who they are targeting. And decided that canon was what they said it was as the current "creators".

    There are at least a couple of times with Daniels stating "This wasn't supposed to happen" with the Xindi attack and a colony being destroyed. So Daniels doesn't care about the timeline changing, but the timeline changing enough so that Daniels and the world he knows are erased from existence. So it doesn't matter to him if aliens replaced Germans in the 1940s as the main villain of World War II as long as the timeline is close enough.
  • angrytargangrytarg Member Posts: 9,881 Arc User
    edited September 6
    > @phoenixc#0738 said:
    > What was in fashion (and still is to large degree now) when DSC was in development in 2017 was/is long-knap velvet like the original velveteen TOS uniforms (in fact, the minidress and miniskirt is back in fashion as well) unlike the stiff '80s style upholstery-looking double-knit fabric unisex suits and metallic bedazzling of the DSC uniforms. If DSC was trying to avoid "retro" they totally missed the mark there.

    Heh, the DSC uniforms are just awful. I really, really don't know what they were thinking, at all. 😁
    lFC4bt2.gif
    ^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
    "No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
    "A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
    "That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
  • reyan01reyan01 Member Posts: 12,793 Arc User
    angrytarg wrote: »
    > @phoenixc#0738 said:
    > What was in fashion (and still is to large degree now) when DSC was in development in 2017 was/is long-knap velvet like the original velveteen TOS uniforms (in fact, the minidress and miniskirt is back in fashion as well) unlike the stiff '80s style upholstery-looking double-knit fabric unisex suits and metallic bedazzling of the DSC uniforms. If DSC was trying to avoid "retro" they totally missed the mark there.

    Heh, the DSC uniforms are just awful. I really, really don't know what they were thinking, at all. 😁

    Hardly the worst offerring Trek has given us though, are they.
    3U3C0SJ.jpg

  • reyan01reyan01 Member Posts: 12,793 Arc User
    To be honest, I prefer to beleive the theory put forward on Ex Astris Scientia: "it is well possible that the Franklin was kept in service after 2161 because the young Federation urgently needed ships after the Romulan War. The Franklin may be a sui generis design, so it seems plausible that the ship got an NX registry (now standing for "experimental" and not for "NX class") although it was already outdated at the time."
    3U3C0SJ.jpg

  • angrytargangrytarg Member Posts: 9,881 Arc User
    edited September 6
    The Franklin (Earth ship) would serve in Starfleet just like the Andorian, Tellarite and Vulcan ships and probably slowly be phased out for united origin designs.

    Also yeah, not THE worst, but pretty bad 😁
    lFC4bt2.gif
    ^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
    "No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
    "A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
    "That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
  • redeyedravenredeyedraven Member Posts: 837 Arc User
    edited September 7
    angrytarg wrote: »
    The Franklin (Earth ship) would serve in Starfleet just like the Andorian, Tellarite and Vulcan ships and probably slowly be phased out for united origin designs.

    Also yeah, not THE worst, but pretty bad 😁

    The worst offender on the DSC-uniforms are the boots IMO. Every other piece looks fine, despite having a bit much of that paillette-bling-bling.
  • reyan01reyan01 Member Posts: 12,793 Arc User
    edited September 16
    angrytarg wrote: »
    The Franklin (Earth ship) would serve in Starfleet just like the Andorian, Tellarite and Vulcan ships and probably slowly be phased out for united origin designs.

    Also yeah, not THE worst, but pretty bad 😁

    The worst offender on the DSC-uniforms are the boots IMO. Every other piece looks fine, despite having a bit much of that paillette-bling-bling.
    Have to be honest, am indifferent about the Discovery uniform - I found it a little too elaborate and I have to admit I hate the rank-pip on the badge thing.

    However, I love the (DSC-Era) Enterprise uniform; the more familiar colour scheme is nice and I liked how they dispensed of the silly, and barely visible, rank-pip badge thing in favour of a normal badge and striped rank insignia on the cuff.
    3U3C0SJ.jpg

  • phoenixc#0738 phoenixc Member Posts: 738 Arc User
    edited September 17
    reyan01 wrote: »
    angrytarg wrote: »
    The Franklin (Earth ship) would serve in Starfleet just like the Andorian, Tellarite and Vulcan ships and probably slowly be phased out for united origin designs.

    Also yeah, not THE worst, but pretty bad 😁

    The worst offender on the DSC-uniforms are the boots IMO. Every other piece looks fine, despite having a bit much of that paillette-bling-bling.
    Have to be honest, am indifferent about the Discovery uniform - I found it a little too elaborate and I have to admit I hate the rank-pip on the badge thing.

    However, I love the (DSC-Era) Enterprise uniform; the more familiar colour scheme is nice and I liked how they dispensed of the silly, and barely visible, rank-pip badge thing in favour of a normal badge and striped rank insignia on the cuff.

    True, the DSC Enterprise uniforms are an improvement on the silly-looking regular DSC ones though they are still way too stiff and uncomfortable looking. The original TOS uniforms were designed with the idea that they were made for comfort and utility just as much as they were for looks, while the DSC-Enterprise ones are obviously not.

    In fact, the velveteen was chosen in order to represent a kind of smart cloth that would react to temperature differences to keep the wearer comfortable, like a cat going from a warm house into winter cold puffing up their fur. Unfortunately, as a prop velveteen is not very practical since it shrinks every time you wash it and has other problems (including being very hot to wear under the old-style filming lamps which in turn led to the need to wash them even more often). Real velvet would have been a little better from a maintenance point of view (it is a bit more stable though it has its problems too) but it was too expensive to even consider for a '60s science-fiction show where special effects ate so much of the budget (something DSC would not have had to worry about when they designed their uniforms).

    If you take what CBS said about DSC being prime to mean that it is the same timeline as TOS, and assume that at least the uniforms of the early Kelvin timeline are actually the same as what Prime used at the time, that paints a rather unflattering picture of Starfleet of either a rampant elitism/favoritism going on or some kind of appropriations tug-of-war maneuvering which is not what one would expect of the post-scarcity society that Roddenberry envisioned.

    According to the Kelvin opening scene Starfleet of the 2230s used a fairly thin, soft and supple fabric with a hint of felt fuzziness to it. It could represent the early stages move to a limited smart fabric that still looks like mundane cloth (possibly based on sophisticated Vulcan fabric technology if you take T'Pol's early snarking and her outfits into account). Considering USS Kelvin was almost certainly a heavy destroyer or light cruiser size-class wise it is probably safe to assume that those uniforms were fleet-wide and not some special perk.

    The Cage shows the smart fabric idea taken fully to heart with a light and comfortable weight, relaxed cut, and a long adaptable knap. Either they were an exclusive luxury for an elite clique based around the Constitution class ships (as DSC and a few DSC tie-in novels suggest), or Starfleet cared enough to use the very best for everyone.

    Either way, by 2255 the bulk of Starfleet is in stiff, binding (you can see the stress lines in the fabric as they move) and probably rather uncomfortable uniforms with that very poor rank visibility. Even Enterprise, when it shows up, has had a uniform change away from the Cage style to the same kind of stiff, short or no knap 'dumb' cloth the others use but with a color scheme similar to their old ones.

    Then, by the mid 2260s they are back to the smart cloth, and this time it is confirmed to be general issue, not just for the elite. Unfortunately the real-world velour problems diluted the effect over time as the costumes deteriorated, and lead to replacing it with cheap double-knits that made them look like they were running around in band shirts without the printing. That would translate in-setting to another stingy period, especially since they also lacked the toughness (and therefor protectiveness) that the earlier uniforms had as shown by how often Kirk ran around with his ripped to rags.

  • jonsillsjonsills Member Posts: 8,648 Arc User
    You're putting waaaaayy too much importance on trivial details of costuming. The essence of Star Trek, the thing that's brought audiences back time and again for over fifty years, isn't what they're wearing, it's what they're doing.
    Lorna-Wing-sig.png
  • phoenixc#0738 phoenixc Member Posts: 738 Arc User
    edited September 17
    jonsills wrote: »
    You're putting waaaaayy too much importance on trivial details of costuming. The essence of Star Trek, the thing that's brought audiences back time and again for over fifty years, isn't what they're wearing, it's what they're doing.

    True, it is probably an over-analysis, but costumes are a very, very important part of atmosphere and always have been since the early days of stage productions. And even "what they do" has changed quite a bit between DSC and TOS, with DSC leaning more towards self-serving plots and conspiracies, with a huge helping of CYA thrown on top which makes the interweaving of the original and the new also project that tug-of-war feeling.
  • markhawkmanmarkhawkman Member Posts: 34,235 Arc User
    jonsills wrote: »
    You're putting waaaaayy too much importance on trivial details of costuming. The essence of Star Trek, the thing that's brought audiences back time and again for over fifty years, isn't what they're wearing, it's what they're doing.
    True, it is probably an over-analysis, but costumes are a very, very important part of atmosphere and always have been since the early days of stage productions. And even "what they do" has changed quite a bit between DSC and TOS, with DSC leaning more towards self-serving plots and conspiracies, with a huge helping of CYA thrown on top which makes the interweaving of the original and the new also project that tug-of-war feeling.
    Sure, but costuming is also what changes most often.
    -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
    My character Tsin'xing
    Costume_marhawkman_Tsin%27xing_CC_Comic_Page_Blue_488916968.jpg
  • jonsillsjonsills Member Posts: 8,648 Arc User
    jonsills wrote: »
    You're putting waaaaayy too much importance on trivial details of costuming. The essence of Star Trek, the thing that's brought audiences back time and again for over fifty years, isn't what they're wearing, it's what they're doing.

    True, it is probably an over-analysis, but costumes are a very, very important part of atmosphere and always have been since the early days of stage productions. And even "what they do" has changed quite a bit between DSC and TOS, with DSC leaning more towards self-serving plots and conspiracies, with a huge helping of CYA thrown on top which makes the interweaving of the original and the new also project that tug-of-war feeling.
    Your analysis is also faulty in that when TOS was being made, and the velour (or "goddamnvelour", as the cast reportedly called them) outfits were being used, the concept of "smart fabric" wasn't a thing even in SF. The closest we had then was the idea of a spacesuit made of woven fabric, tightly fitted to the body, so that one's sweat glands could be used for temperature regulation (with a sort of metallic poncho to be worn in shadow). The suit's fabric would be porous enough to permit the passage of sweat, while providing sufficient structural strength to the skin that the astronaut in question wouldn't die. The "smart fabric" idea didn't start showing up until the late '70s or early '80s (the polymimetic carbon suits worn by the Panther Moderns in Neuromancer, for instance, which would create an image of whatever was behind the wearer to grant virtual invisibility).

    As for the plots, blame the audience. We expect more sophistication out of our TV sci-fi than we used to (try some of Roddenberry's other early projects like The Questor Tapes, for instance, or the silliness of Space: 1999 or the original Battlestar Galactica).
    Lorna-Wing-sig.png
  • starkaosstarkaos Member Posts: 10,947 Arc User
    jonsills wrote: »
    jonsills wrote: »
    You're putting waaaaayy too much importance on trivial details of costuming. The essence of Star Trek, the thing that's brought audiences back time and again for over fifty years, isn't what they're wearing, it's what they're doing.

    True, it is probably an over-analysis, but costumes are a very, very important part of atmosphere and always have been since the early days of stage productions. And even "what they do" has changed quite a bit between DSC and TOS, with DSC leaning more towards self-serving plots and conspiracies, with a huge helping of CYA thrown on top which makes the interweaving of the original and the new also project that tug-of-war feeling.
    Your analysis is also faulty in that when TOS was being made, and the velour (or "goddamnvelour", as the cast reportedly called them) outfits were being used, the concept of "smart fabric" wasn't a thing even in SF. The closest we had then was the idea of a spacesuit made of woven fabric, tightly fitted to the body, so that one's sweat glands could be used for temperature regulation (with a sort of metallic poncho to be worn in shadow). The suit's fabric would be porous enough to permit the passage of sweat, while providing sufficient structural strength to the skin that the astronaut in question wouldn't die. The "smart fabric" idea didn't start showing up until the late '70s or early '80s (the polymimetic carbon suits worn by the Panther Moderns in Neuromancer, for instance, which would create an image of whatever was behind the wearer to grant virtual invisibility).

    As for the plots, blame the audience. We expect more sophistication out of our TV sci-fi than we used to (try some of Roddenberry's other early projects like The Questor Tapes, for instance, or the silliness of Space: 1999 or the original Battlestar Galactica).

    Not just smart suits, but lots of technology could have been used in TOS if they only thought of it. Holodecks, holographic communicators, and neural communicators could have been done in TOS extremely easily. Holodecks would just need a prop door that never opens. Holographic communicators would just need a disk on the ground for the callers to stand on. Neural communicators just need voice-overs.
  • phoenixc#0738 phoenixc Member Posts: 738 Arc User
    edited September 17
    jonsills wrote: »
    jonsills wrote: »
    You're putting waaaaayy too much importance on trivial details of costuming. The essence of Star Trek, the thing that's brought audiences back time and again for over fifty years, isn't what they're wearing, it's what they're doing.

    True, it is probably an over-analysis, but costumes are a very, very important part of atmosphere and always have been since the early days of stage productions. And even "what they do" has changed quite a bit between DSC and TOS, with DSC leaning more towards self-serving plots and conspiracies, with a huge helping of CYA thrown on top which makes the interweaving of the original and the new also project that tug-of-war feeling.
    Your analysis is also faulty in that when TOS was being made, and the velour (or "goddamnvelour", as the cast reportedly called them) outfits were being used, the concept of "smart fabric" wasn't a thing even in SF. The closest we had then was the idea of a spacesuit made of woven fabric, tightly fitted to the body, so that one's sweat glands could be used for temperature regulation (with a sort of metallic poncho to be worn in shadow). The suit's fabric would be porous enough to permit the passage of sweat, while providing sufficient structural strength to the skin that the astronaut in question wouldn't die. The "smart fabric" idea didn't start showing up until the late '70s or early '80s (the polymimetic carbon suits worn by the Panther Moderns in Neuromancer, for instance, which would create an image of whatever was behind the wearer to grant virtual invisibility).

    As for the plots, blame the audience. We expect more sophistication out of our TV sci-fi than we used to (try some of Roddenberry's other early projects like The Questor Tapes, for instance, or the silliness of Space: 1999 or the original Battlestar Galactica).

    I used a more modern term out of habit, but non-electronic smart fabric was being used in sci-fi a lot further back than that, usually in casual offhand references. For instance the "blue baldies" in Andre Norton's "Time Traders" (1958) used a silk-like smart fabric that was even more versatile than the TOS one. And yes, it was a skin-tight bodysuit of a silky and very slick material and could be used as a space suit with the addition of an adapter mantle and helmet, but that did not make it any less of a "smart fabric".

    Thermoresponsive polymer fibers were researched as early as the 1940s and the wildly speculative idea of adaptive clothing made from them made the rounds way back then (just like other impractical ideas like atomic powered cars and commuters flying jetpacks to work instead of driving cars that were common in sci-fi of the '40s and '50s). In fact, I think a temperature-regulating cloth was mentioned in Armageddon 2419 (the original Buck Rogers story) written back in the 1920s.

    On a handwavum level the idea is far from new, and people knew that furred animals stayed warm by fluffing their fur out even longer than that.
    starkaos wrote: »
    jonsills wrote: »
    jonsills wrote: »
    You're putting waaaaayy too much importance on trivial details of costuming. The essence of Star Trek, the thing that's brought audiences back time and again for over fifty years, isn't what they're wearing, it's what they're doing.

    True, it is probably an over-analysis, but costumes are a very, very important part of atmosphere and always have been since the early days of stage productions. And even "what they do" has changed quite a bit between DSC and TOS, with DSC leaning more towards self-serving plots and conspiracies, with a huge helping of CYA thrown on top which makes the interweaving of the original and the new also project that tug-of-war feeling.
    Your analysis is also faulty in that when TOS was being made, and the velour (or "goddamnvelour", as the cast reportedly called them) outfits were being used, the concept of "smart fabric" wasn't a thing even in SF. The closest we had then was the idea of a spacesuit made of woven fabric, tightly fitted to the body, so that one's sweat glands could be used for temperature regulation (with a sort of metallic poncho to be worn in shadow). The suit's fabric would be porous enough to permit the passage of sweat, while providing sufficient structural strength to the skin that the astronaut in question wouldn't die. The "smart fabric" idea didn't start showing up until the late '70s or early '80s (the polymimetic carbon suits worn by the Panther Moderns in Neuromancer, for instance, which would create an image of whatever was behind the wearer to grant virtual invisibility).

    As for the plots, blame the audience. We expect more sophistication out of our TV sci-fi than we used to (try some of Roddenberry's other early projects like The Questor Tapes, for instance, or the silliness of Space: 1999 or the original Battlestar Galactica).

    Not just smart suits, but lots of technology could have been used in TOS if they only thought of it. Holodecks, holographic communicators, and neural communicators could have been done in TOS extremely easily. Holodecks would just need a prop door that never opens. Holographic communicators would just need a disk on the ground for the callers to stand on. Neural communicators just need voice-overs.

    They actually did try some of that though most was not practical until the cartoon version. TAS had a holodeck of sorts for instance, it was the same one mentioned way back in the TOS series bible but no one found a legitimate use for in scripts that was worth the expense of filming it.

    They were also supposed to have holographic communications, that is what the blank, black stretch of panel between Uhura's station and Spock's was for, but filming tests showed that it just looked ridiculous and they never used the idea in an episode. They toyed with the idea of just having actors suddenly appear on the bridge via splice and simply not touch anything or do anything else except talk and move, but judged that it would be too confusing to the audience without explaining what it was supposed to be each time (or just too silly like some of the Lost in Space teleportation stuff), which Roddenberry would not stand for.

    Finally, the viewscreens were supposed to be like looking through a window at a real scene instead of flat 2D images like a TV screen of today. Again, they played with a few ideas about how to get the idea across, but ended up not actually doing anything with it onscreen.

    They did not have neural communicators unless you count the remote-control brainless Spock or Pike's life support chair, which would be a stretch at best. Some of the aliens did have it though, such as the temporary teaching machine in the same "Spock's Brain" episode that had the Spock drone.
    Post edited by phoenixc#0738 on
  • rattler2rattler2 Member Posts: 48,855 Arc User
    I kinda liked the Discovery uniforms, although I too was a little unhappy with the pip system ON the badge. But the TOS style Discovery uniforms looked awesome.
    ent-uniforms.jpg

    Now if only we got that Discovery skirt too ingame.
    66998372863950ee98cf7da9786e2ea9-db80k0m.png
    I can't take it anymore! Could everyone just chill out for two seconds before something CRAZY happens again?!
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  • azrael605azrael605 Member Posts: 10,574 Arc User
    @phoenixc#0738

    I suggest you watch Trek Nation and Chaos on the Bridge, also For the Love of Spock, and What We Leave Behind (soon as it releases). Many of the (being charitable) urban Trek myths (being honest, Gene's Batshit BS), which you keep referencing are debunked in each. Many times out of the mouth of the person you said did whatever.
    There ain't no such thing as a free lunch.

    One man's theology is another man's belly laugh.

    You can have peace. Or you can have freedom. Don't ever count on having both at once.

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  • phoenixc#0738 phoenixc Member Posts: 738 Arc User
    edited September 19
    I saw some of those, though they came out after I had drifted away from Trek for the most part so I only saw them once or twice out of nostalgic curiosity, unlike the old days before TMP where, like a lot of other Trek fans, I hunted down every scrap of information available to the public (and there was quite a bit), and then again for scenario ideas running a Star Trek game campaign in the '80s and '90s and as debate points in the Star Wars vs Star Trek debates of the early and mid 00's.

    Mostly those shows are good, especially for something looking back fifty years through the lens of a totally different zeitgeist, but I would suggest going closer to the source and reading books about the subject like "The Making of Star Trek" and recorded talks and interviews from back then too. There is a lot of candid offhand things people say when a show is officially dead few are even thinking seriously of bringing it back despite what the fans wanted. And, as I said, the changing zeitgeist makes a big difference in interpretation and even how people remember things much later if they do not take it into account.

    And yes, Roddenberry was known for a somewhat high BS quotient. A good example of that is that instead of just telling people the truth about the stardates in the shows being out of order because the network did not bother to show them in order, he could not resist spinning a convoluted pseudo-science thing about it depending on where you are in the galaxy. But Star Trek itself would never have come about if he was not a fast-talking hustler to some extent since the show concept was not in the networks' comfort zone.

    Also a lot of those "myths" are actually supported by the internal memos that were circulating in fan circles and published in books like "The Making of Star Trek" and other sources of information like talks and Q&As with Roddenberry and others at conventions (some of which were recorded, there was even an official LP record sold of one of Roddenberry's longer ones).

    A lot of those stressed that they were going for a smooth minimalist and practical style inside and outside of the ship for instance, and including the uniforms which were supposed to look comfortable (they were actually hot and scratchy) and like they were made of futuristic materials. There were also mentions of a lot of those sfx tests, including references to the opening scene of what became "The Cage" where the camera was supposed to close in on the name and registration on saucer, skim along the hull and enter through the front of the bridge but proved impossible to do in a way that looked good, and the suggestion that they use the vent hole and attachment ring for the "wild" wall sections over the set for the camera entry point since it was a natural mask. That documentation also mentioned things like the burning control panel transparencies and other "myths".

    People nowadays like to look at all of the kludges and think that is exactly what they were trying to do back then instead of something more, that somehow all "modern" ideas are very recent and no one could possibly think of anything like that back then. But that is not the case and never was, it is very common for ideas to exist in various forms long before anyone can actually do them with technology, and that includes show production technology.
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