SF Debris reviews Short Treks

starswordc

"Tilly finds when life gives you lemons, it follows up by throwing food at you."
https://youtu.be/8wyzbUE0gFM

starswordc

> @reyan01 said:
> I love SF Debris - have followed him for years.
>
> Hope he reviews Discovery Season 2 soon - though considering he made his thoughts about the focus on Michael Burnham very clear in both the S1 reviews and the review you linked, I suspect his thoughts on most of S2 will be fairly similar.

I dunno, season 2 is a lot more of an ensemble show. I mean, one of the first things Pike does when he takes command is have the bridge bunnies go around a circle and introduce themselves.

I'm far from thrilled with what S2 did with Section 31 but it could've been a hell of a lot worse.

legendarylycan

the only problem i have with S31 in disco is that CBS didn't give either of their ships a proper damn class name...they didn't even give something to cryptic for THEM to use...so we get stuck with 'intel destroyer' instead of an actual class name like constitution or crossfield​​

legendarylycan

those at least can be called kelvin class and franklin class until their actual class names are revealed because they have actual names...NCIA-93 is not a name​​

artan42

reyan01 wrote: »

shadowfang240 wrote: »

the only problem i have with S31 in disco is that CBS didn't give either of their ships a proper damn class name...they didn't even give something to cryptic for THEM to use...so we get stuck with 'intel destroyer' instead of an actual class name like constitution or crossfield​​

Well, they did refer to Leland's ship as NCIA-93 in the DSC episode: "Light and Shadows". Probably a registry number, but still a point of reference.

Not ideal, but no worse than, say, referring to the USS Kelvin as 'Kelvin type', and the USS Franklin as 'Franklin type' due to the lack of established class name.

Like most ships they have class names in non-canon material. Einstein and Freedom respectively. The Section 31 ships don't appear outside of DSCS2 as far as I'm aware so we're not going to get class names.
I don't think any ships in DSC were given class names canonically other than the Crossfield and Constitution.

legendarylycan

yeah...you're gonna have to link proof for that​​

spiritborn

It wouldn't surprise me at all if the section 31 ships didn't have an official class or ship names (in-universe that is) just a registry number. It would easier for Starfleet to deny they are in active duty, "oh that one, that never got past the initial prototype phase so we never bothered to give it a name, as far we know if it was ever built it's probably mothballed in some yard somewhere."

phoenixc

azrael605 wrote: »

Well one more time then. Here is the link.

https://trekmovie.com/2018/04/07/fear-itself-cover-revealed-star-trek-discovery-writer-addresses-tie-in-canon-question/

The relevant passages.

"it’s canon unless we do something that invalidates it (b/c we find a story we NEED to tell that contradicts it)."

And

"And the view from the other side of the fence - we work hard to craft stories that tie into canon so nicely that @StarTrekRoom will never have that need."

On top of that Saru's entire backstory was created by the author of Fear Itself (the novel about Saru) to the point he had to rewrite the novel because the show writers wanted to use that material in the show right away.

Add to that, Kristen Beyer is the editor for the entire line of Discovery novels and other tie ins to ensure canon compliance.

All of this has been reiterated by the producers and CBS on many occassions, the link provided is simply the first time it was stated, and even then had CBS backing it up.

Back in the day, all of FASA's stuff had to be run past Paramount editors to certify it as canon ready too, and look how now none of it (except a few things that made it into the shows themselves) is considered even quasi-canon anymore.

It probably does not help CBS's multimedia efforts that the "only TV and movies are canon" idea is so firmly entrenched in much of the fanbase either.

starswordc

phoenixc#0738 wrote: »

azrael605 wrote: »

Well one more time then. Here is the link.

https://trekmovie.com/2018/04/07/fear-itself-cover-revealed-star-trek-discovery-writer-addresses-tie-in-canon-question/

The relevant passages.

"it’s canon unless we do something that invalidates it (b/c we find a story we NEED to tell that contradicts it)."

And

"And the view from the other side of the fence - we work hard to craft stories that tie into canon so nicely that @StarTrekRoom will never have that need."

On top of that Saru's entire backstory was created by the author of Fear Itself (the novel about Saru) to the point he had to rewrite the novel because the show writers wanted to use that material in the show right away.

Add to that, Kristen Beyer is the editor for the entire line of Discovery novels and other tie ins to ensure canon compliance.

All of this has been reiterated by the producers and CBS on many occassions, the link provided is simply the first time it was stated, and even then had CBS backing it up.

Back in the day, all of FASA's stuff had to be run past Paramount editors to certify it as canon ready too, and look how now none of it (except a few things that made it into the shows themselves) is considered even quasi-canon anymore.

It probably does not help CBS's multimedia efforts that the "only TV and movies are canon" idea is so firmly entrenched in much of the fanbase either.

Well, in their defense, that was the canon policy until this decade. It only started to change with the tie-ins to the Kelvin Timeline films: e.g. Bad Robot consider the (kinda crappy) tie-in video game to the '09 canon as far as the KT is concerned. And now apparently CBS has decided to follow Disney's lead and make an official cross-media continuity going forward.

legendarylycan

which is good - no one type of media should EVER be elevated above the other; all this elitist BS in hollywood needs to end​​

starkaos

starswordc wrote: »

phoenixc#0738 wrote: »

azrael605 wrote: »

Well one more time then. Here is the link.

https://trekmovie.com/2018/04/07/fear-itself-cover-revealed-star-trek-discovery-writer-addresses-tie-in-canon-question/

The relevant passages.

"it’s canon unless we do something that invalidates it (b/c we find a story we NEED to tell that contradicts it)."

And

"And the view from the other side of the fence - we work hard to craft stories that tie into canon so nicely that @StarTrekRoom will never have that need."

On top of that Saru's entire backstory was created by the author of Fear Itself (the novel about Saru) to the point he had to rewrite the novel because the show writers wanted to use that material in the show right away.

Add to that, Kristen Beyer is the editor for the entire line of Discovery novels and other tie ins to ensure canon compliance.

All of this has been reiterated by the producers and CBS on many occassions, the link provided is simply the first time it was stated, and even then had CBS backing it up.

Back in the day, all of FASA's stuff had to be run past Paramount editors to certify it as canon ready too, and look how now none of it (except a few things that made it into the shows themselves) is considered even quasi-canon anymore.

It probably does not help CBS's multimedia efforts that the "only TV and movies are canon" idea is so firmly entrenched in much of the fanbase either.

Well, in their defense, that was the canon policy until this decade. It only started to change with the tie-ins to the Kelvin Timeline films: e.g. Bad Robot consider the (kinda crappy) tie-in video game to the '09 canon as far as the KT is concerned. And now apparently CBS has decided to follow Disney's lead and make an official cross-media continuity going forward.

But if that Star Trek video game is canon to the KT, then wouldn't their interpretation of the Gorn be canon to the Prime Timeline?

legendarylycan

please no...KT gorn are hideous​​

starkaos

shadowfang240 wrote: »

please no...KT gorn are hideous​​

It is based off of the assumption that everything in the KT and PT are exactly the same prior to the destruction of the USS Kelvin. If that Star Trek game is canon to the KT, then any alien races introduced in it would be canon to the PT.

legendarylycan

and this is one case where i'm glad CBS gets to make that decision and not paramount...those gorn really are hideous​​

starkaos

shadowfang240 wrote: »

and this is one case where i'm glad CBS gets to make that decision and not paramount...those gorn really are hideous​​

They are hideous and it would have been better if they used another name instead of an alien race that has existed since TOS. Then there is the fact that the Gorn in that video game came from another galaxy and only came to the Milky Way Galaxy due to a wormhole created from a terraforming device on New Vulcan. So if the Gorn are from a different galaxy and New Vulcan doesn't exist in the PT, then how did Kirk fight with a Gorn in TOS? It is better to just forget about that idiotic video game.

markhawkman

starkaos wrote: »

shadowfang240 wrote: »

and this is one case where i'm glad CBS gets to make that decision and not paramount...those gorn really are hideous​​

They are hideous and it would have been better if they used another name instead of an alien race that has existed since TOS. Then there is the fact that the Gorn in that video game came from another galaxy and only came to the Milky Way Galaxy due to a wormhole created from a terraforming device on New Vulcan. So if the Gorn are from a different galaxy and New Vulcan doesn't exist in the PT, then how did Kirk fight with a Gorn in TOS? It is better to just forget about that idiotic video game.

Yes, amazingly hideous....

Although this discussion reminds me of an amusing question. Where is the Gorn HW? Here's what TOS has to say about the matter:

So much information.

legendarylycan

that's fine - i was referring to this orklizard abomination

​​

starswordc

While we're at it, Chuck also has his first DSC S2 review up for "Brother". https://sfdebris.com/videos/startrek/c116.php

(Can't insert the video because he has to use Vimeo for most of his video reviews because Youtube sucks at copyright.)

phoenixc

starkaos wrote: »

shadowfang240 wrote: »

please no...KT gorn are hideous​​

It is based off of the assumption that everything in the KT and PT are exactly the same prior to the destruction of the USS Kelvin. If that Star Trek game is canon to the KT, then any alien races introduced in it would be canon to the PT.

Actually, according to comments from both Orci (who came up with the idea in the first place) and Kurtzman, it isn't exactly the same as before the Narada/Kelvin incident. Orci originally wrote it as the wormhole going to a close parallel of Prime, not directly to Prime's past (that was in order to avoid IP entanglements in case they had to make references to the past that CBS did not agree with, as well as generally giving a freer hand creatively to later installments).

Kurtzman indirectly confirmed what Orci said by stating multiple times that temporal physics do not work the same as they did in the Prime universe, and time travel is much harder and makes the "go back and fix it" time stories impossible since going back in time and changing anything in that dimension causes a branch to form, not a paradox reality that can be "reset" to normal.

mustrumridcully0

shadowfang240 wrote: »

which is good - no one type of media should EVER be elevated above the other; all this elitist BS in hollywood needs to end​​

It isn't really about elitism, it's about having creative freedom or being shackled by way too much material to keep in mind when writing a new story. Star Trek is already full of inconsistencies even if you follow just the tradition of "only what happened on TV or movie screens". It would become worse if they have to consider hundreds of additional stories from novels or comics.
It is just too much for a single writer to keep it all in check, and even something like Memory Alpha can't protect you.

starkaos

phoenixc#0738 wrote: »

starkaos wrote: »

shadowfang240 wrote: »

please no...KT gorn are hideous​​

It is based off of the assumption that everything in the KT and PT are exactly the same prior to the destruction of the USS Kelvin. If that Star Trek game is canon to the KT, then any alien races introduced in it would be canon to the PT.

Actually, according to comments from both Orci (who came up with the idea in the first place) and Kurtzman, it isn't exactly the same as before the Narada/Kelvin incident. Orci originally wrote it as the wormhole going to a close parallel of Prime, not directly to Prime's past (that was in order to avoid IP entanglements in case they had to make references to the past that CBS did not agree with, as well as generally giving a freer hand creatively to later installments).

Kurtzman indirectly confirmed what Orci said by stating multiple times that temporal physics do not work the same as they did in the Prime universe, and time travel is much harder and makes the "go back and fix it" time stories impossible since going back in time and changing anything in that dimension causes a branch to form, not a paradox reality that can be "reset" to normal.

This goes against what some of the forum community believes. Artan and I have had numerous debates over the issue about the nature of the KT. They believe that the KT branched off from the PT while I believe that there is nothing in Star Trek 2009 that indicates what the KT is. My personal preference is that the KT is a parallel universe, but that is due to the creative freedom it gives to the writers. Star Trek 2009 could be viewed as a time travel story where the protagonist fails to preserve their timeline since the nature of the KT is external information.

artan42

starkaos wrote: »

while I believe that there is nothing in Star Trek 2009 that indicates what the KT is.

Other than a direct statment from Spock who is an expert in time travel physics.

The fact that Orci, Kurtzman, Abrams, Pegg, you, me, Linderlof, whoever else, all disagree means absolutely nothing when the canonical answer is given in the series itself.

Spock states the divergance happened with the attack on the Kelvin, the presence of a photo from TUC proves Spock is from the PT, and the details of the past in BEY including the Earth Starfleet and MACO stuff (including the aperance of the Shuttlepod from ENT) prove that the past is also prime. DSC proves that there is nothing pre-attack on the Kelvin that is out of place for PT either. PIC will also very likly tie into proving this further due to Kurtzman's presance in the franchise now.

Every single part of the series outlines its own setting and mechanics through exposition, direct and indirect. Beyond just wanting to make things up or take a particular person's headcanon over the canonical films there is no reason to come to any other conclusion.

spiritborn

starswordc wrote: »

While we're at it, Chuck also has his first DSC S2 review up for "Brother". https://sfdebris.com/videos/startrek/c116.php

(Can't insert the video because he has to use Vimeo for most of his video reviews because Youtube sucks at copyright.)

I think Chuck missed a perfect joke by not using the Power Rangers theme during the pod scene clips.

legendarylycan

which power rangers theme? we have like...30 of them now​​

spiritborn

shadowfang240 wrote: »

which power rangers theme? we have like...30 of them now​​

the orginal "mighty morphing" theme of course (aka "go go power rangers").

phoenixc

artan42 wrote: »

starkaos wrote: »

while I believe that there is nothing in Star Trek 2009 that indicates what the KT is.

Other than a direct statment from Spock who is an expert in time travel physics.

The fact that Orci, Kurtzman, Abrams, Pegg, you, me, Linderlof, whoever else, all disagree means absolutely nothing when the canonical answer is given in the series itself.

Spock states the divergance happened with the attack on the Kelvin, the presence of a photo from TUC proves Spock is from the PT, and the details of the past in BEY including the Earth Starfleet and MACO stuff (including the aperance of the Shuttlepod from ENT) prove that the past is also prime. DSC proves that there is nothing pre-attack on the Kelvin that is out of place for PT either. PIC will also very likly tie into proving this further due to Kurtzman's presance in the franchise now.

Every single part of the series outlines its own setting and mechanics through exposition, direct and indirect. Beyond just wanting to make things up or take a particular person's headcanon over the canonical films there is no reason to come to any other conclusion.

Actually none of that is concrete proof.

Spock is neither omniscient nor infallible and could be wrong about where the wormhole took him. The fact that he even kept a reminder photo may mean that his early memories are getting fuzzy too for that matter, so he may not notice the differences without researching them on a computer he no longer has since both the jellyfish and the Narada are gone.

On top of that he has been known to exaggerate or simplify things for expediency in the past, and the situation in the 2009 movie was a prime candidate for simplification on his part since it was all just to get the local Kirk going rather than bog him down with long explanations about parallels and the differences. And Spock saying the changes started with the Narada and the Kelvin would not even be a lie from his viewpoint, just a slight exaggeration in the name of expediency during the emergency since it is indeed where the sharp divergence happened.

Orci's idea was to use the Prime Spock and send him to the 2260s of a parallel universe, of course that picture shows a shot from TUC. Where he came from isn't proof of where he went.

The ENT stuff in BEY is no proof that it is Prime either, it just means that the Kelvin universe had its own ENT that was at least similar (or even identical) to Prime's. Remember, the idea was for a reasonably close parellel where it is generally the same but with some differences like the Gorns looking like they chase parked cars, the larger ship sizes, the mass-multi-cored drives, the transwarp drive speeds and the "you cannot catch a ship in warp" nonsense (which is true of transwarp, not warp). In theory, ST2009 can be used to draw general conclusions about things in Prime that were unknown before but there is no guarantee that the details will carry over, even the pre-Kelvin parts.

starkaos

phoenixc#0738 wrote: »

Spock is neither omniscient nor infallible and could be wrong about where the wormhole took him. The fact that he even kept a reminder photo may mean that his early memories are getting fuzzy too for that matter, so he may not notice the differences without researching them on a computer he no longer has since both the jellyfish and the Narada are gone.

Then there is the fact that Star Trek has used for decades chroniton particles and quantum signatures to indicate to the audience whether the protagonists are dealing with parallel universes or time travel.

phoenixc#0738 wrote: »

Orci's idea was to use the Prime Spock and send him to the 2260s of a parallel universe, of course that picture shows a shot from TUC. Where he came from isn't proof of where he went.

But would it involve time travel? The 2260s of a parallel universe could happen at the same time as the 2380s of the Prime Universe. Travelling to a parallel universe that looks like the past would eliminate the problems of time travel paradoxes.