> @phoenixc#0738 said:
> azrael605 wrote: »
>
> > @phoenixc#0738 said:
> > The bra padding was actually to prevent any details or motion from showing through the costumes (Jeri Ryan had an even worse time of it, her catsuit had a very tight and stiff underlayer to keep any motion from being visible anywhere).
> >
> > Pretty much the same thing was the rule in TOS since it was subjected to ridiculous censorship due to the Hollywood practice of pigeonholing science fiction as either horror or kids-stuff, and Trek was not presented as horror. Unfortunately, when TNG came about it did so just when the "uptight '80s" was nearing full swing at the start of the decade so the practice became locked in to all Trek as a standard and not just an overcensorship issue.
>
> That was not the reason for the padding or for what Jeri had to wear. In fact everyone involved from Berman to Ryan has stated otherwise so don't try to whitewash with BS.
>
>
>
>
> I am not "whitewashing" it, Ryan herself said as much in an interview, similar to the interview that Sirtis gave where she talked about how the intelligence of Troi was apparently directly inverse to the amount of cleavage showing in the costumes she wore.
>
> Roddenberry talked about pretty much the same thing in a very funny recorded interview (I used to have the record but it went even before the last record player I had broke down), all the ridiculous restrictions that they had to work under to satisfy the censors. In fact, he later remarked that he gave the Tyranians in Genesis II two navels because of the arguments he had with the overzealous censors in TOS that nixed any costume that showed a navel.
Jeri Ryan stated at the 2017 SDCC the actual reasons for the costume she was forced into. Berman had much in common with her ex-husband former senator Jack Ryan who used to try to take her to BDSM clubs. Earlier statements were made in fear of weinstein like career reprisals.
In the 1960s it was against TV standards to show a toilet or even hint at bathrooms. That changed decades ago, as di the navel thing which you utterly butchered the story of. By the 1990s such idiotic TRIBBLE had been long since discarded. There was no rule on TV that made any bra padding needed for anyone, and actually watching the show would show you numerous times that neither those 2 actresses nor any of the dozens of other women in the cast ever padded anything.
1960s rules did not govern 1990s TV period.
Of course "1960s rules did not govern 1990s TV", and I never said they did. What I said was that the TOS restrictions were from the network censors but the later stuff came from the uptight zeitgeist of the androgynous '80s, a fashion sense that Star Trek has been stuck in ever since.
Even the skant uniforms don't really counter that in any way since they were never used in a serious manner, just as a way to briefly poke fun at the TOS uniforms for a few seconds in only four episodes in the whole of TNG (which was probably for the best since they were even fuglier than the usual uniform of the time, though I suspect they may have been deliberately designed to be ridiculous looking).
> @spiritborn said:
> From what I've gathered is that Berman wasn't so much a hack as he was overly conservative with Star Trek (as in wanting conserve and retain certain aspects Star Trek, not in his political leaning which I know nothing about) while being out of touch with what audiences actually wanted.
>
> When paired with someone who could counter act those weaknesses Berman could do great stuff, however if paired with someone who couldn't well the results weren't generally very pretty.
I think the flip side of that is true too, problems arise when Berman isn't there counter act his opposite sorts excesses.
Obviously making TV-series is a team effort after all, though due to his position there was rarely a situation where Berman couldn't have countered something if he felt passionate enough about it.
And obviously Berman's not unique in this either Roddenberry had the exact same issue and it nearly killed TNG (as in TNG didn't really get popular until Roddenberry was "kicked upstairs" for season 3 and TNG couldn't have really sustained a third lackluster season).
Actually TNG got its footing in episode 25 of season one, "Contagion", which was done from a very short pitch from Roddenberry.
Roddenberry had heated desk-pounding arguments with the executives and the other producers about the overly laid-back "space procedural" style Birman created for the show and pushed for more action in the series similar to the action/drama style of TOS. "Contagion" showed that he was right, and following scripts were written with that balance in mind though it took a while to tune it, as well as finish shuffling the cast around to get rid of the last of the redundancies that were necessary for the "Macross" setup where the two ship sections were supposed to spend more time apart.
On the other hand, Birman's reigning in of the original Macross-like scientific-town saucer with the detachable warship concept and grounding the series to a more conventional heavy cruiser format like TOS probably kept the project from coming apart before it even started filming, as the writers struggled unsuccessfully to actually write episodes in that unfamiliar-to-Hollywood setup.
Jeri Ryan stated at the 2017 SDCC the actual reasons for the costume she was forced into. Berman had much in common with her ex-husband former senator Jack Ryan who used to try to take her to BDSM clubs. Earlier statements were made in fear of weinstein like career reprisals.
I would take anything she says on that note with a grain of salt. Shes told varying and contradictory stories about that stuff over the years. Alternately claiming she 'didn't know what BDSM clubs were and freaking out' and then claiming she had gone to them multiple times with him and alternately not having any particular issue with it and then claiming it 'made her uncomfortable. In other words, she can't keep her stories straight. Like I said, take all of it with a grain of salt
In the 1960s it was against TV standards to show a toilet or even hint at bathrooms.
That is a myth that started with leave it to beaver in 1957. a series that itself had many, many instances of including bathroom scenes and at least two episodes that took place almost entirely in bathrooms
but the later stuff came from the uptight zeitgeist of the androgynous '80s, a fashion sense that Star Trek has been stuck in ever since.
Unisex and androgynous are not the same thing.
The former is a uniform that is not seperated by sex which was mostly available from TMP onwards barring a few exceptions (Uhura's skirt in TUC, the ridiculous throwbacks in the KT, and the stupid dress thing from DSCS2 that they put the security officer of all people in).
Androgynous means to produce something where the visable sex of the wearer is not aparent which would involve face masks and really loose costumes which is not the case in Trek at all.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though. JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
Alright I'm done talking to phoenix. There have been documentaries that talked about just how rule breaking it was the first time Archie Bunker flushed a toilet on TV but he is going to claim its a myth. That is someone not connected to reality.
Jeri's exact words about her costume include noting that the fabric had to cling to her chest between the "breast mounds" in defiance of how fabric naturally acts. The coatume was designed for one purpose, to draw the eye directly to her chest. Had there been any intention of making anything less noticable there would have been no defiance of physics in the costume.
That aside, Farrell didn't have any padding in her Risa swimsuit, and that set was cold, so any notion of the padding being to hide nips goes right out the window. Ashley Judd's Robin Lefler didn't wear any padding in her off duty clothes in The Game. Nor was there any padding in Denise Crosby's coatume, nor in Marina Sirtis's "look at my cleavage" counselor auit. No padding present in Nana Visitor's costumes.
Accept it, Berman made the womem with the largest assets emphasise them just for eye candy, nothing more.
I wasn't the one who brought up toilets, you should probably pay more attention to the names of the posters when making rebuttals. What I brought up was the fashion and costume stuff.
And yes, unisex and androgynous are not quite the same thing. In fashion unisex is simply clothing and/or accessory items that can be used by either gender, while androgynous is a very distinctive entire look. That look was one of the main fashion hallmarks of the 1980s and ran the gamut from very "butch" looking female fashion and hairstyles on one side to the borderline effeminate "Ziggy Stardust" look on the other extreme, with a kind of dull overly self-conscious neutral look in between.
That fashion environment had a huge impact on TNG, and that set the rather dull and uninteresting look for all following Star Trek uniforms, even in DSC where current fashion outside of Trek is far more compatible with the various velour uniforms used in The Cage and in early TOS (though using real long-knap velvet instead of the velour the TOS budget necessitated) than it is the 1980s look they have in DSC.
Roddenberry's Star Trek of the 1960s was cutting edge, pushing the boundaries in many areas, whereas Star Trek under Berman made every effort to tone that down, to be more "down to earth", and that definitely included the bland middle-of-the-pack uniform designs.
Alright I'm done talking to phoenix. There have been documentaries that talked about just how rule breaking it was the first time Archie Bunker flushed a toilet on TV but he is going to claim its a myth. That is someone not connected to reality.
Jeri's exact words about her costume include noting that the fabric had to cling to her chest between the "breast mounds" in defiance of how fabric naturally acts. The coatume was designed for one purpose, to draw the eye directly to her chest. Had there been any intention of making anything less noticable there would have been no defiance of physics in the costume.
That aside, Farrell didn't have any padding in her Risa swimsuit, and that set was cold, so any notion of the padding being to hide nips goes right out the window. Ashley Judd's Robin Lefler didn't wear any padding in her off duty clothes in The Game. Nor was there any padding in Denise Crosby's coatume, nor in Marina Sirtis's "look at my cleavage" counselor auit. No padding present in Nana Visitor's costumes.
Accept it, Berman made the womem with the largest assets emphasise them just for eye candy, nothing more.
I wasn't the one who brought up toilets, you should probably pay more attention to the names of the posters when making rebuttals. What I brought up was the fashion and costume stuff.
And yes, unisex and androgynous are not quite the same thing. In fashion unisex is simply clothing and/or accessory items that can be used by either gender, while androgynous is a very distinctive entire look. That look was one of the main fashion hallmarks of the 1980s and ran the gamut from very "butch" looking female fashion and hairstyles on one side to the borderline effeminate "Ziggy Stardust" look on the other extreme, with a kind of dull overly self-conscious neutral look in between.
That fashion environment had a huge impact on TNG, and that set the rather dull and uninteresting look for all following Star Trek uniforms, even in DSC where current fashion outside of Trek is far more compatible with the various velour uniforms used in The Cage and in early TOS (though using real long-knap velvet instead of the velour the TOS budget necessitated) than it is the 1980s look they have in DSC.
Roddenberry's Star Trek of the 1960s was cutting edge, pushing the boundaries in many areas, whereas Star Trek under Berman made every effort to tone that down, to be more "down to earth", and that definitely included the bland middle-of-the-pack uniform designs.
Or maybe military fashion is supposed to look dull and uninteresting. TOS was partially able to be more interesting with its fashion due to the larger presence of civilians in TOS compared to Discovery.
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch." "We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
Passion and Serenity are one.
I gain power by understanding both.
In the chaos of their battle, I bring order.
I am a shadow, darkness born from light.
The Force is united within me.
> @azrael605 said: > Alright I'm done talking to phoenix. There have been documentaries that talked about just how rule breaking it was the first time Archie Bunker flushed a toilet on TV but he is going to claim its a myth. That is someone not connected to reality. > > Jeri's exact words about her costume include noting that the fabric had to cling to her chest between the "breast mounds" in defiance of how fabric naturally acts. The coatume was designed for one purpose, to draw the eye directly to her chest. Had there been any intention of making anything less noticable there would have been no defiance of physics in the costume. > > That aside, Farrell didn't have any padding in her Risa swimsuit, and that set was cold, so any notion of the padding being to hide nips goes right out the window. Ashley Judd's Robin Lefler didn't wear any padding in her off duty clothes in The Game. Nor was there any padding in Denise Crosby's coatume, nor in Marina Sirtis's "look at my cleavage" counselor auit. No padding present in Nana Visitor's costumes. > > Accept it, Berman made the womem with the largest assets emphasise them just for eye candy, nothing more.
And Shatner and Chris Pine had to go shirtless for the same sort of reason, sex appeal and there is nothing wrong with that. When did society become selectively prudish.
Both women know sex appeal was part of the job when they took same with Shatner and Chris Pine, ect...
Okay I was still a niave feminist when Jeri Ryan's accusations against Jack Ryan surfaced and so I really never questioned if they were true. I'm MRA now so I've just looked into it, and her throwing such an absurd accusation during a divirce/custody case that netted her $20,000,000 which he denies and for which she has NEVER offered a shred of proof like eye witnesses, tells me it never happened, that she made it up to win, and it tanking his political career was something acceptable to her to get what she wanted.
This just killed any buzz I had about the Picard series, that Jeri Ryan would stoop to that. I feel sick and heart breaking, again.
> @lordgyor said:
> > @azrael605 said:
> > Alright I'm done talking to phoenix. There have been documentaries that talked about just how rule breaking it was the first time Archie Bunker flushed a toilet on TV but he is going to claim its a myth. That is someone not connected to reality.
> >
> > Jeri's exact words about her costume include noting that the fabric had to cling to her chest between the "breast mounds" in defiance of how fabric naturally acts. The coatume was designed for one purpose, to draw the eye directly to her chest. Had there been any intention of making anything less noticable there would have been no defiance of physics in the costume.
> >
> > That aside, Farrell didn't have any padding in her Risa swimsuit, and that set was cold, so any notion of the padding being to hide nips goes right out the window. Ashley Judd's Robin Lefler didn't wear any padding in her off duty clothes in The Game. Nor was there any padding in Denise Crosby's coatume, nor in Marina Sirtis's "look at my cleavage" counselor auit. No padding present in Nana Visitor's costumes.
> >
> > Accept it, Berman made the womem with the largest assets emphasise them just for eye candy, nothing more.
>
> And Shatner and Chris Pine had to go shirtless for the same sort of reason, sex appeal and there is nothing wrong with that. When did society become selectively prudish.
>
> Both women know sex appeal was part of the job when they took same with Shatner and Chris Pine, ect...
You mistake my issue. My problem is phoenix acting like these facts are not facts. Trying to claim that the padding was not about enhancing the eye candy is my issue.
Again, I am not saying that the eye candy aspect was not there, what I said was that first overcensorship in TOS and then later the uptight prudish zeitgeist of the 1980s had a huge impact too (probably slightly more than the eye candy one in fact). Hollywood, like most other industries and organizations, rarely if ever does things for purely one reason.
I based my comments about the padding in TOS not only on things Roddenberry said but also candid comments from Thiess (the costume designer for TOS and part of TNG) in interviews after TOS ended but before Paramount seriously considered any new Trek. I tend to consider comments from that time about a show that the studio considered dead and gone and therefor had no reason to spin in any way to be intrinsically more reliable than later ones where Paramount had a vested interest in shaping the public view of the franchise.
> @azrael605 said: > > @lordgyor said: > > Okay I was still a niave feminist when Jeri Ryan's accusations against Jack Ryan surfaced and so I really never questioned if they were true. I'm MRA now so I've just looked into it, and her throwing such an absurd accusation during a divirce/custody case that netted her $20,000,000 which he denies and for which she has NEVER offered a shred of proof like eye witnesses, tells me it never happened, that she made it up to win, and it tanking his political career was something acceptable to her to get what she wanted. > > > > This just killed any buzz I had about the Picard series, that Jeri Ryan would stoop to that. I feel sick and heart breaking, again. > > You need to look further. Jeri didn't release that information, Barak Obama's senatorial campaign did. Jeri had the documents sealed.
Its disgusting the Obama would do that, the peoples private life, it had no bearing on the campaign. My respect for Obama has diminished. But watching Tulsi Gabbard being slandered and the DNC doing its corrupt ma
Still that doesn't give Jeri Ryan a free pass.
Still it was along time ago, perhaps we should all move on.
But I would still like Rick Berman to be brought back.
Well I am saying that the padding was only for the eye candy. Had nothing to do with censorship when in the very same episode you see women and men in nearly see through outfits. Sometimes including the woman wearing padding in other scenes. Also I dunno if your just too young or what but I was alive in the 80s, and the decade that produced Madonna's Like a Virgin, Vanity's Such a Pretty Mess, Heavy Metal (film), and so much more, was not "prudish".
Madonna was part of the counterculture, not the mainline fashion culture that Star Trek, especially under Berman, drew its influences from. There is always a counterculture of some sort and the '80 were no exception to that. And compared to the 1960s and 1970s the 1980s were indeed rather prudish and self-conscious, a sort of low-key backlash against the previous decades. Very few women would wear skirts or dresses outside of formal and a few other narrow situations in the '80s for instance (much more so than today though some of it still remains), and that reluctance was often referred to in TV, movies, and books produced back then.
As for remembering the 1980s zeitgeist, yes I was there and remember it. I also remember the zeitgeist of the 1960s and saw at least some of the Star Trek episodes when they originally aired, along with all of Lost in Space (except for the pilot episode, I had to catch that much later due to technical issues that night) and Stingray and the other very sparse science fiction offerings TV had at the time.
Comments
Of course "1960s rules did not govern 1990s TV", and I never said they did. What I said was that the TOS restrictions were from the network censors but the later stuff came from the uptight zeitgeist of the androgynous '80s, a fashion sense that Star Trek has been stuck in ever since.
Even the skant uniforms don't really counter that in any way since they were never used in a serious manner, just as a way to briefly poke fun at the TOS uniforms for a few seconds in only four episodes in the whole of TNG (which was probably for the best since they were even fuglier than the usual uniform of the time, though I suspect they may have been deliberately designed to be ridiculous looking).
Actually TNG got its footing in episode 25 of season one, "Contagion", which was done from a very short pitch from Roddenberry.
Roddenberry had heated desk-pounding arguments with the executives and the other producers about the overly laid-back "space procedural" style Birman created for the show and pushed for more action in the series similar to the action/drama style of TOS. "Contagion" showed that he was right, and following scripts were written with that balance in mind though it took a while to tune it, as well as finish shuffling the cast around to get rid of the last of the redundancies that were necessary for the "Macross" setup where the two ship sections were supposed to spend more time apart.
On the other hand, Birman's reigning in of the original Macross-like scientific-town saucer with the detachable warship concept and grounding the series to a more conventional heavy cruiser format like TOS probably kept the project from coming apart before it even started filming, as the writers struggled unsuccessfully to actually write episodes in that unfamiliar-to-Hollywood setup.
I would take anything she says on that note with a grain of salt. Shes told varying and contradictory stories about that stuff over the years. Alternately claiming she 'didn't know what BDSM clubs were and freaking out' and then claiming she had gone to them multiple times with him and alternately not having any particular issue with it and then claiming it 'made her uncomfortable. In other words, she can't keep her stories straight. Like I said, take all of it with a grain of salt
That is a myth that started with leave it to beaver in 1957. a series that itself had many, many instances of including bathroom scenes and at least two episodes that took place almost entirely in bathrooms
Unisex and androgynous are not the same thing.
The former is a uniform that is not seperated by sex which was mostly available from TMP onwards barring a few exceptions (Uhura's skirt in TUC, the ridiculous throwbacks in the KT, and the stupid dress thing from DSCS2 that they put the security officer of all people in).
Androgynous means to produce something where the visable sex of the wearer is not aparent which would involve face masks and really loose costumes which is not the case in Trek at all.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
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I wasn't the one who brought up toilets, you should probably pay more attention to the names of the posters when making rebuttals. What I brought up was the fashion and costume stuff.
And yes, unisex and androgynous are not quite the same thing. In fashion unisex is simply clothing and/or accessory items that can be used by either gender, while androgynous is a very distinctive entire look. That look was one of the main fashion hallmarks of the 1980s and ran the gamut from very "butch" looking female fashion and hairstyles on one side to the borderline effeminate "Ziggy Stardust" look on the other extreme, with a kind of dull overly self-conscious neutral look in between.
That fashion environment had a huge impact on TNG, and that set the rather dull and uninteresting look for all following Star Trek uniforms, even in DSC where current fashion outside of Trek is far more compatible with the various velour uniforms used in The Cage and in early TOS (though using real long-knap velvet instead of the velour the TOS budget necessitated) than it is the 1980s look they have in DSC.
Roddenberry's Star Trek of the 1960s was cutting edge, pushing the boundaries in many areas, whereas Star Trek under Berman made every effort to tone that down, to be more "down to earth", and that definitely included the bland middle-of-the-pack uniform designs.
Or maybe military fashion is supposed to look dull and uninteresting. TOS was partially able to be more interesting with its fashion due to the larger presence of civilians in TOS compared to Discovery.
#LegalizeAwoo
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch."
"We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
> Alright I'm done talking to phoenix. There have been documentaries that talked about just how rule breaking it was the first time Archie Bunker flushed a toilet on TV but he is going to claim its a myth. That is someone not connected to reality.
>
> Jeri's exact words about her costume include noting that the fabric had to cling to her chest between the "breast mounds" in defiance of how fabric naturally acts. The coatume was designed for one purpose, to draw the eye directly to her chest. Had there been any intention of making anything less noticable there would have been no defiance of physics in the costume.
>
> That aside, Farrell didn't have any padding in her Risa swimsuit, and that set was cold, so any notion of the padding being to hide nips goes right out the window. Ashley Judd's Robin Lefler didn't wear any padding in her off duty clothes in The Game. Nor was there any padding in Denise Crosby's coatume, nor in Marina Sirtis's "look at my cleavage" counselor auit. No padding present in Nana Visitor's costumes.
>
> Accept it, Berman made the womem with the largest assets emphasise them just for eye candy, nothing more.
And Shatner and Chris Pine had to go shirtless for the same sort of reason, sex appeal and there is nothing wrong with that. When did society become selectively prudish.
Both women know sex appeal was part of the job when they took same with Shatner and Chris Pine, ect...
This just killed any buzz I had about the Picard series, that Jeri Ryan would stoop to that. I feel sick and heart breaking, again.
Again, I am not saying that the eye candy aspect was not there, what I said was that first overcensorship in TOS and then later the uptight prudish zeitgeist of the 1980s had a huge impact too (probably slightly more than the eye candy one in fact). Hollywood, like most other industries and organizations, rarely if ever does things for purely one reason.
I based my comments about the padding in TOS not only on things Roddenberry said but also candid comments from Thiess (the costume designer for TOS and part of TNG) in interviews after TOS ended but before Paramount seriously considered any new Trek. I tend to consider comments from that time about a show that the studio considered dead and gone and therefor had no reason to spin in any way to be intrinsically more reliable than later ones where Paramount had a vested interest in shaping the public view of the franchise.
> lordgyor wrote: »
>
> I'm MRA now...
>
>
>
> Well, that explains a lot. Hope you recover eventually.
It's not a medical condition, I stand up for equality and justice, perhaps you've been misinformed, I suggest you watch the documentary The Red Pill.
> > @lordgyor said:
> > Okay I was still a niave feminist when Jeri Ryan's accusations against Jack Ryan surfaced and so I really never questioned if they were true. I'm MRA now so I've just looked into it, and her throwing such an absurd accusation during a divirce/custody case that netted her $20,000,000 which he denies and for which she has NEVER offered a shred of proof like eye witnesses, tells me it never happened, that she made it up to win, and it tanking his political career was something acceptable to her to get what she wanted.
> >
> > This just killed any buzz I had about the Picard series, that Jeri Ryan would stoop to that. I feel sick and heart breaking, again.
>
> You need to look further. Jeri didn't release that information, Barak Obama's senatorial campaign did. Jeri had the documents sealed.
Its disgusting the Obama would do that, the peoples private life, it had no bearing on the campaign. My respect for Obama has diminished. But watching Tulsi Gabbard being slandered and the DNC doing its corrupt ma
Still that doesn't give Jeri Ryan a free pass.
Still it was along time ago, perhaps we should all move on.
But I would still like Rick Berman to be brought back.
Madonna was part of the counterculture, not the mainline fashion culture that Star Trek, especially under Berman, drew its influences from. There is always a counterculture of some sort and the '80 were no exception to that. And compared to the 1960s and 1970s the 1980s were indeed rather prudish and self-conscious, a sort of low-key backlash against the previous decades. Very few women would wear skirts or dresses outside of formal and a few other narrow situations in the '80s for instance (much more so than today though some of it still remains), and that reluctance was often referred to in TV, movies, and books produced back then.
As for remembering the 1980s zeitgeist, yes I was there and remember it. I also remember the zeitgeist of the 1960s and saw at least some of the Star Trek episodes when they originally aired, along with all of Lost in Space (except for the pilot episode, I had to catch that much later due to technical issues that night) and Stingray and the other very sparse science fiction offerings TV had at the time.