A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch." "We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
Passion and Serenity are one.
I gain power by understanding both.
In the chaos of their battle, I bring order.
I am a shadow, darkness born from light.
The Force is united within me.
> @valoreah said: > lordgyor wrote: » > > There are no instances of misgyny, hatred of women in Star TrekTrek , so there is nothing to negate. > > > > > Clearly you've never watched selected episodes of Star Trek or don't understand what misogyny is, or both. Captain Kirk telling a woman he'll "give her a spanking" isn't respecting her as an equal I can assure you.
Why kink shame Kirk? 50 Shades of Grey is very popular for a reason.> @shadowfang240 said: > givent he woman in question was acting like a spoiled, childish brat at the time, the expression kirk used was ENTIRELY warranted
Agreed, he treats everyone who behaves like adults respectfully. Plus honestly it was fan service towards women to begin with, Shatner's Kirk was a sex symbol to women, it played to their fanntasies.
no, i absolutely WOULD say - and then follow through with action if the behavior continued - that to an adult; act like a childish brat, get treated - and punished - like one
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch." "We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
Passion and Serenity are one.
I gain power by understanding both.
In the chaos of their battle, I bring order.
I am a shadow, darkness born from light.
The Force is united within me.
> @valoreah said: > Yes, and that is something you would say to a spoiled brat of a child - not an adult woman - let alone a diplomat. > > Were you to take off the rose colored glasses a minute, you would see stuff like McCoy saying to Janice Lester "women can't be Captains" because of their “emotional instability and erratic mental attitudes” is a prejudicial statement toward women. > > To be clear, TOS was made in a different time. Back then this kind of thing was accepted. Today, not so much.
There were a few stupid statements , but not enough to be myginist.
no, i absolutely WOULD say - and then follow through with action if the behavior continued - that to an adult; act like a childish brat, get treated - and punished - like one
no, i absolutely WOULD say - and then follow through with action if the behavior continued - that to an adult; act like a childish brat, get treated - and punished - like one
You act like a childish brat while serving in uniform, you get hit with NJP or a court-martial. You do not get called a childish brat and treated like one, you get treated like an adult service member who is breaking the rules. That entire episode is nothing but a sexist piece of s**t and we can thank ENT and DSC for effectively retconning Janice Lester into a nutcase.
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Never said he was a saint. My issue is star trek is not misogynistic. By all means you are welcome to hold your view as i am to hold mine. So lets say we disagree and call it a day.
For the most part I would agree with you, however there were times when it is questionable. See any time Picard references Dr. Pulaski as "that woman" or any number of moments in TOS.
As for the linked article in the video, Mulgrew was saying TOS (not all of Star Trek) and Roddenberry himself were misogynistic. To that, I would personally agree. TOS was not exactly the gospel for women's equality.
As many said, the actresses liked the miniskirt uniforms. They could still be pros and women.
Hell, if I were in 24th or beyond Starfleet, I'd be clamoring for a return of a miniskirt uniform as well.
As I understood it, the actresses liked it because they were professional women that commanded the respect of their co-workers, and in the minds of many 60s people, such women shouldn't wear short skirts. In essence, society demanded women not to work such scandalous clothing and didn't give them a choice. Hence, to rebel against that and show your a free person, you wear them.
But today, these aren't seen as particularly scandalous. Wearing them is one of many possible choices for women's wear, and so some do, and some don't. If all the women in your show however are wearing them, then it becomes suspicious - you're probably just dressing them up for your benefit, not based on the women's individual preferences.
Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
Funny thing about the mini-skirts in TOS is that they were chosen because it was considered "liberating" and thus pro-feminist.
Well times change and with them the symbolic meanings of somethings. IIRC up at least early 19th century nudity had a secondary meaning of "innosence(sic)" or "purity" that are more or less totally absent in current US culture. That's why it wasn't that odd for even nobility to pose nude for paintings back in the days, while these days it would be unthinkble.
no, i absolutely WOULD say - and then follow through with action if the behavior continued - that to an adult; act like a childish brat, get treated - and punished - like one
You act like a childish brat while serving in uniform, you get hit with NJP or a court-martial. You do not get called a childish brat and treated like one, you get treated like an adult service member who is breaking the rules. That entire episode is nothing but a sexist piece of s**t and we can thank ENT and DSC for effectively retconning Janice Lester into a nutcase.
The only "childish brat" Kirk said that to was Elaan. She was not serving in uniform, she was not an ambassador, she was a very reluctant young treaty bride to seal an alliance that the local diplomats negotiated with a little help from the Federation. She did not want to do it and Kirk (and a number of others in the crew) did not want to take the diplomatic detour from their "real" duties so additudes and tempers were not the best to start with.
The script was a very loose take on "The Taming of the Shrew" which is in line with the other Shakespearian reference scripts in Star Trek and other shows of the time. It was one of those things that almost every series did in some way at some point back then, the same way that "Ground Hog Day" makes its way in some form into just about every sci-fi and fantasy series nowadays.
If you watch TOS you can see Janice Lester was already a nutcase before ENT and DSC. Also, a very common (and understandable) mistake people make is thinking that Janice Lester said "Your world of starship captains doesn't admit women. It isn't fair." (in fact third party transcripts often write it that way too). What she actually said from the original script was: "Your world of Starship captains doesn't admit women. It isn't fair.".
The difference is the capitalization (which of course is not audible) but it is the key to the seeming contradiction. The zeitgeist of the '60s had a lot of anti-war sentiment and NBC flat out shot down Roddenberry calling the Enterprise a "battleship" and were leery enough about calling it a "heavy cruiser" that their censor always insisted that it be stricken from the scripts each time it came up. That made for some difficulties for the writers so they took inspiration from the placeholder on the bridge plaque and started using the weird designation "Starship" with a capital "S" to denote capital starships. Notice they never show any "good guy" ship with a warlike designation like "destroyer" or "battlecruiser" and only use the terms "explorer", "merchant", and the relatively innocuous "scout" for them.
If you translate what Lester said in light of that situation then it would become something like" "Your world of capital ship captains doesn't admit women. It isn't fair." or "Your world of cruiser captains doesn't admit women. It isn't fair."
Never said he was a saint. My issue is star trek is not misogynistic. By all means you are welcome to hold your view as i am to hold mine. So lets say we disagree and call it a day.
For the most part I would agree with you, however there were times when it is questionable. See any time Picard references Dr. Pulaski as "that woman" or any number of moments in TOS.
As for the linked article in the video, Mulgrew was saying TOS (not all of Star Trek) and Roddenberry himself were misogynistic. To that, I would personally agree. TOS was not exactly the gospel for women's equality.
As many said, the actresses liked the miniskirt uniforms. They could still be pros and women.
Hell, if I were in 24th or beyond Starfleet, I'd be clamoring for a return of a miniskirt uniform as well.
As I understood it, the actresses liked it because they were professional women that commanded the respect of their co-workers, and in the minds of many 60s people, such women shouldn't wear short skirts. In essence, society demanded women not to work such scandalous clothing and didn't give them a choice. Hence, to rebel against that and show your a free person, you wear them.
But today, these aren't seen as particularly scandalous. Wearing them is one of many possible choices for women's wear, and so some do, and some don't. If all the women in your show however are wearing them, then it becomes suspicious - you're probably just dressing them up for your benefit, not based on the women's individual preferences.
Very true. In the '60s the miniskirt and go-go boots were a symbol of freedom and empowerment. The idea that it was demeaning "fan service" came from looking at TOS from the viewpoint of the self-embarrassed fashions of a decade and more later (especially the "Unisex '80s").
Funny thing about the mini-skirts in TOS is that they were chosen because it was considered "liberating" and thus pro-feminist.
Well times change and with them the symbolic meanings of somethings. IIRC up at least early 19th century nudity had a secondary meaning of "innosence(sic)" or "purity" that are more or less totally absent in current US culture. That's why it wasn't that odd for even nobility to pose nude for paintings back in the days, while these days it would be unthinkable.
And why cherubs and angels were often drawn naked...
Actually Elaan was a member of her homeworld's royal family, and thus several steps above an ambassador.
Ranking above an ambassador does not always make one a valid substitute for one. In fact, in some ancient cultures the ruler's word was absolute and custom forbid them to negotiate about anything, the diplomats were there specifically to distance the rulers from any haggling with other nations.
Elaan was not sent to Troyius as a diplomat or even as a person once you get down to it, she was sent as a valuable object that was part of the price of alliance, who just happened to be a living princess, and she was not at all happy about that. On top of that, it is obvious that she never had any kind of diplomatic training whatsoever.
Unlike in Taming of the Shrew, where the shrew ended up an obedient parrot for the husband, the episode ended with the impression that Elaan was not broken like Katherina was and that she just had her mind opened by the experience to the point that she was at least willing to give the treaty a chance for the good of her (or even both) people.
> @phoenixc#0738 said: > Unlike in Taming of the Shrew, where the shrew ended up an obedient parrot for the husband, the episode ended with the impression that Elaan was not broken like Katherina was and that she just had her mind opened by the experience to the point that she was at least willing to give the treaty a chance for the good of her (or even both) people.
That play is always better when Katharina recites her closing monologue sarcastically. Of all the Bard's work, Shrew is by far the one that has aged the worst.
His political ones are still really good, though. I saw a really good performance of Richard III when I went up to D.C. for a Within Temptation concert in February.
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
> @azrael605 said: > My point was, the green skinned ambassador told Kirk Elaan was to be accorded all the courtesies extended to a head of state. Spanking is not one of them. Go to London and tell Kate Middleton your going to spank her and see what happens to you.
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Never said he was a saint. My issue is star trek is not misogynistic. By all means you are welcome to hold your view as i am to hold mine. So lets say we disagree and call it a day.
For the most part I would agree with you, however there were times when it is questionable. See any time Picard references Dr. Pulaski as "that woman" or any number of moments in TOS.
As for the linked article in the video, Mulgrew was saying TOS (not all of Star Trek) and Roddenberry himself were misogynistic. To that, I would personally agree. TOS was not exactly the gospel for women's equality.
As many said, the actresses liked the miniskirt uniforms. They could still be pros and women.
Hell, if I were in 24th or beyond Starfleet, I'd be clamoring for a return of a miniskirt uniform as well.
As I understood it, the actresses liked it because they were professional women that commanded the respect of their co-workers, and in the minds of many 60s people, such women shouldn't wear short skirts. In essence, society demanded women not to work such scandalous clothing and didn't give them a choice. Hence, to rebel against that and show your a free person, you wear them.
But today, these aren't seen as particularly scandalous. Wearing them is one of many possible choices for women's wear, and so some do, and some don't. If all the women in your show however are wearing them, then it becomes suspicious - you're probably just dressing them up for your benefit, not based on the women's individual preferences.
The members of my fleet chose which version to wear for my comic. So, it's all good.
Funny thing about the mini-skirts in TOS is that they were chosen because it was considered "liberating" and thus pro-feminist.
indeed, the creation of the mini skirt coincided with the liberation of women, and the sexual revolution at least in Europe.
By now, this way of thinking in occident is considered as obsolete, but the miniskirt is still considered in a lot of countries (religious countries or paternalistic countries) like a form of freedom.
There are no instances of misgyny, hatred of women in Star TrekTrek , so there is nothing to negate.
Clearly you've never watched selected episodes of Star Trek or don't understand what misogyny is, or both. Captain Kirk telling a woman he'll "give her a spanking" isn't respecting her as an equal I can assure you.
It depends in what context such a phrase "give her a spanking" is in. There is the sexual or erotic context and there is the punishment as a result of breaking a rule context like for children or just used as a threat. Though I will say the idea of Star Trek is to have no misogyny. That it did not necessarily happen all the time is on the culture of that time and not on the Star Trek universe itself much. Though the Ferengi seem to be the ones that most would fall under the category of being misogynistic.
It depends in what context such a phrase give her a spanking is in.
In the context of the episode in question, it was misogynistic and disrespectful.
In context it was not meant to be misogynistic but it was deliberately disrespectful because Kirk suddenly realized that in her culture disrespect was part of the normal challenges it took for a person to be taken seriously (something the Troyians never did understand which is probably why the conflict dragged on for as long as it did). Oddly, the word "spanking" apparently did not translate since Elaan had to ask Kirk what that "old Earth custom called a spanking" was.
Comments
#LegalizeAwoo
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch."
"We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
> lordgyor wrote: »
>
> There are no instances of misgyny, hatred of women in Star TrekTrek , so there is nothing to negate.
>
>
>
>
> Clearly you've never watched selected episodes of Star Trek or don't understand what misogyny is, or both. Captain Kirk telling a woman he'll "give her a spanking" isn't respecting her as an equal I can assure you.
Why kink shame Kirk? 50 Shades of Grey is very popular for a reason.> @shadowfang240 said:
> givent he woman in question was acting like a spoiled, childish brat at the time, the expression kirk used was ENTIRELY warranted
Agreed, he treats everyone who behaves like adults respectfully. Plus honestly it was fan service towards women to begin with, Shatner's Kirk was a sex symbol to women, it played to their fanntasies.
#LegalizeAwoo
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch."
"We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
> Yes, and that is something you would say to a spoiled brat of a child - not an adult woman - let alone a diplomat.
>
> Were you to take off the rose colored glasses a minute, you would see stuff like McCoy saying to Janice Lester "women can't be Captains" because of their “emotional instability and erratic mental attitudes” is a prejudicial statement toward women.
>
> To be clear, TOS was made in a different time. Back then this kind of thing was accepted. Today, not so much.
There were a few stupid statements , but not enough to be myginist.
Yep.
You act like a childish brat while serving in uniform, you get hit with NJP or a court-martial. You do not get called a childish brat and treated like one, you get treated like an adult service member who is breaking the rules. That entire episode is nothing but a sexist piece of s**t and we can thank ENT and DSC for effectively retconning Janice Lester into a nutcase.
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
As I understood it, the actresses liked it because they were professional women that commanded the respect of their co-workers, and in the minds of many 60s people, such women shouldn't wear short skirts. In essence, society demanded women not to work such scandalous clothing and didn't give them a choice. Hence, to rebel against that and show your a free person, you wear them.
But today, these aren't seen as particularly scandalous. Wearing them is one of many possible choices for women's wear, and so some do, and some don't. If all the women in your show however are wearing them, then it becomes suspicious - you're probably just dressing them up for your benefit, not based on the women's individual preferences.
My character Tsin'xing
My character Tsin'xing
The only "childish brat" Kirk said that to was Elaan. She was not serving in uniform, she was not an ambassador, she was a very reluctant young treaty bride to seal an alliance that the local diplomats negotiated with a little help from the Federation. She did not want to do it and Kirk (and a number of others in the crew) did not want to take the diplomatic detour from their "real" duties so additudes and tempers were not the best to start with.
The script was a very loose take on "The Taming of the Shrew" which is in line with the other Shakespearian reference scripts in Star Trek and other shows of the time. It was one of those things that almost every series did in some way at some point back then, the same way that "Ground Hog Day" makes its way in some form into just about every sci-fi and fantasy series nowadays.
If you watch TOS you can see Janice Lester was already a nutcase before ENT and DSC. Also, a very common (and understandable) mistake people make is thinking that Janice Lester said "Your world of starship captains doesn't admit women. It isn't fair." (in fact third party transcripts often write it that way too). What she actually said from the original script was: "Your world of Starship captains doesn't admit women. It isn't fair.".
The difference is the capitalization (which of course is not audible) but it is the key to the seeming contradiction. The zeitgeist of the '60s had a lot of anti-war sentiment and NBC flat out shot down Roddenberry calling the Enterprise a "battleship" and were leery enough about calling it a "heavy cruiser" that their censor always insisted that it be stricken from the scripts each time it came up. That made for some difficulties for the writers so they took inspiration from the placeholder on the bridge plaque and started using the weird designation "Starship" with a capital "S" to denote capital starships. Notice they never show any "good guy" ship with a warlike designation like "destroyer" or "battlecruiser" and only use the terms "explorer", "merchant", and the relatively innocuous "scout" for them.
If you translate what Lester said in light of that situation then it would become something like" "Your world of capital ship captains doesn't admit women. It isn't fair." or "Your world of cruiser captains doesn't admit women. It isn't fair."
Very true. In the '60s the miniskirt and go-go boots were a symbol of freedom and empowerment. The idea that it was demeaning "fan service" came from looking at TOS from the viewpoint of the self-embarrassed fashions of a decade and more later (especially the "Unisex '80s").
My character Tsin'xing
Ranking above an ambassador does not always make one a valid substitute for one. In fact, in some ancient cultures the ruler's word was absolute and custom forbid them to negotiate about anything, the diplomats were there specifically to distance the rulers from any haggling with other nations.
Elaan was not sent to Troyius as a diplomat or even as a person once you get down to it, she was sent as a valuable object that was part of the price of alliance, who just happened to be a living princess, and she was not at all happy about that. On top of that, it is obvious that she never had any kind of diplomatic training whatsoever.
Unlike in Taming of the Shrew, where the shrew ended up an obedient parrot for the husband, the episode ended with the impression that Elaan was not broken like Katherina was and that she just had her mind opened by the experience to the point that she was at least willing to give the treaty a chance for the good of her (or even both) people.
> Unlike in Taming of the Shrew, where the shrew ended up an obedient parrot for the husband, the episode ended with the impression that Elaan was not broken like Katherina was and that she just had her mind opened by the experience to the point that she was at least willing to give the treaty a chance for the good of her (or even both) people.
That play is always better when Katharina recites her closing monologue sarcastically. Of all the Bard's work, Shrew is by far the one that has aged the worst.
His political ones are still really good, though. I saw a really good performance of Richard III when I went up to D.C. for a Within Temptation concert in February.
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
> My point was, the green skinned ambassador told Kirk Elaan was to be accorded all the courtesies extended to a head of state. Spanking is not one of them. Go to London and tell Kate Middleton your going to spank her and see what happens to you.
Thank you for that mental image.
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
The members of my fleet chose which version to wear for my comic. So, it's all good.
indeed, the creation of the mini skirt coincided with the liberation of women, and the sexual revolution at least in Europe.
By now, this way of thinking in occident is considered as obsolete, but the miniskirt is still considered in a lot of countries (religious countries or paternalistic countries) like a form of freedom.
It depends in what context such a phrase "give her a spanking" is in. There is the sexual or erotic context and there is the punishment as a result of breaking a rule context like for children or just used as a threat. Though I will say the idea of Star Trek is to have no misogyny. That it did not necessarily happen all the time is on the culture of that time and not on the Star Trek universe itself much. Though the Ferengi seem to be the ones that most would fall under the category of being misogynistic.
In context it was not meant to be misogynistic but it was deliberately disrespectful because Kirk suddenly realized that in her culture disrespect was part of the normal challenges it took for a person to be taken seriously (something the Troyians never did understand which is probably why the conflict dragged on for as long as it did). Oddly, the word "spanking" apparently did not translate since Elaan had to ask Kirk what that "old Earth custom called a spanking" was.