Star Trek allowed women to be women, with dignity and with an amazing portrayal of modesty, competence and other honorable features.
Most of the female characters we've encountered before Discovery were admirable at least once during their presence in the show, even if they were villains of the story.
It's a shame that the sole actress who made a career out of (and only of) Star Trek, managed to spew this out just to get back into the lights. She benefited from enjoying a role filled with defiance and independence, even at the cost of others (Just watch Voyager, Janeway is the least responsible captain when it comes to maintaining a believable and integral relationship with the crew.)
It's a shame that, as an old woman, the last ace in the sleeve is to call Star Trek that way just to get some headlights on you. I find this to be a "ride-the-wave" tactic, but she's a few years too late. This "blame men" game is pretty much 2017. We've grown pass this. At least I hope so.
Kate Mulgrew had a career long before her stint with Star Trek. Mrs. Columbo and Remo Williams are two stand outs as far as I'm concerned. Plus she's had a career since then as well. Her career is marked by a variety of roles. She just never had the spotlight for long stretches of time.
Depends. In TOS, the actresses enjoyed the miniskirt uniforms, since it allowed them to both be professionals, and still be girls, you know.
I don't disagree with you at all on that. Marilyn Monroe famously said “I don't mind living in a man's world, as long as I can be a woman in it.”
However, society has change a lot since the 1960s. I peronsally don't believe we need scantily clad, dolled up women to define what is "sexy" anymore.
Nichelle Nichols famously kept shortening the skirt on her uniform. Then again, if I had legs like hers, I'd probably want to show them off too.
OTOH, there's one image of a sexy woman from VOY that's burned into my brain, apparently from the episode "Macrocosm" (I don't really remember anything else from that episode, but an image search says that was it - sadly, the particular shot I wanted didn't come up in the search). Janeway's preparing to take her ship back from an invader. She's wearing a tank top, the Bun of Steel is slightly mussed, and she's got a bandolier of photon grenades. My mind took the picture just as she was shouldering a compression phaser rifle, about to head out of the armory.
Yeah, Jeri Ryan was/is a looker, but until they let her grow a personality she was pretty generic, and I found the catsuit to detract from her beauty. Warrior Janeway, on the other hand...
(I felt the same way about Troi in TNG, by the bye; she got a lot hotter to me when she put on the uniform and the scripts started giving her a brain.)
Depends. In TOS, the actresses enjoyed the miniskirt uniforms, since it allowed them to both be professionals, and still be girls, you know.
I don't disagree with you at all on that. Marilyn Monroe famously said “I don't mind living in a man's world, as long as I can be a woman in it.”
However, society has change a lot since the 1960s. I peronsally don't believe we need scantily clad, dolled up women to define what is "sexy" anymore.
Nichelle Nichols famously kept shortening the skirt on her uniform. Then again, if I had legs like hers, I'd probably want to show them off too.
OTOH, there's one image of a sexy woman from VOY that's burned into my brain, apparently from the episode "Macrocosm" (I don't really remember anything else from that episode, but an image search says that was it - sadly, the particular shot I wanted didn't come up in the search). Janeway's preparing to take her ship back from an invader. She's wearing a tank top, the Bun of Steel is slightly mussed, and she's got a bandolier of photon grenades. My mind took the picture just as she was shouldering a compression phaser rifle, about to head out of the armory.
Yeah, Jeri Ryan was/is a looker, but until they let her grow a personality she was pretty generic, and I found the catsuit to detract from her beauty. Warrior Janeway, on the other hand...
(I felt the same way about Troi in TNG, by the bye; she got a lot hotter to me when she put on the uniform and the scripts started giving her a brain.)
Yep. Call me crazy, but I find this...
... and this...
...way sexier than catsuits of any kind.
I really like this fan redesign of Seven.
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
I just find this to be an attack on a franchise that is a model of what can be. If you want to call the entertainment industry a despicable thing then by all means direct your feelings of injustice to it.
In most if not all of the history of star trek it has been moving past petty differences and self enrichment. There is and I am sure will be instances where a person was objectified in some way. Can we say green slave women? Yet for all its down sides I have yet to see one not in command of there sexuality and confident.
I see no reason a woman can’t be in command of her sexuality and competent as well. That may be an old fashioned view and if so well so be it. As a side note it was not only women as others have pointed out is anyone here surprised that Kirk lost his shirt on more than one episode? Or the attraction women had for Spock?
The notion that we can gaze in to the past and pass judgment thru the lens of the present is crazy at its best. She was in command of a star ship, a crew, and as in most of star trek a confident woman in full command of her position yet capable of romance and secure in herself.
If the film crew, producers, Hollywood, director’s, were a low life fine I can see that but direct that to them not star trek.
Agree or not either way is fine this is my view take it as you will.
Depends. In TOS, the actresses enjoyed the miniskirt uniforms, since it allowed them to both be professionals, and still be girls, you know.
I don't disagree with you at all on that. Marilyn Monroe famously said “I don't mind living in a man's world, as long as I can be a woman in it.”
However, society has change a lot since the 1960s. I peronsally don't believe we need scantily clad, dolled up women to define what is "sexy" anymore.
Nichelle Nichols famously kept shortening the skirt on her uniform. Then again, if I had legs like hers, I'd probably want to show them off too.
OTOH, there's one image of a sexy woman from VOY that's burned into my brain, apparently from the episode "Macrocosm" (I don't really remember anything else from that episode, but an image search says that was it - sadly, the particular shot I wanted didn't come up in the search). Janeway's preparing to take her ship back from an invader. She's wearing a tank top, the Bun of Steel is slightly mussed, and she's got a bandolier of photon grenades. My mind took the picture just as she was shouldering a compression phaser rifle, about to head out of the armory.
Yeah, Jeri Ryan was/is a looker, but until they let her grow a personality she was pretty generic, and I found the catsuit to detract from her beauty. Warrior Janeway, on the other hand...
(I felt the same way about Troi in TNG, by the bye; she got a lot hotter to me when she put on the uniform and the scripts started giving her a brain.)
While we're on that, what does a former Borg need with an affectation like heels? Especially in light of the fact that humanity had yet to reassert itself! Such details bother me. I also wondered what kind of hack would accept payment for designing 7 of 9's costume? I found it to be that bad.
Count me in on that aspect of Deanna Troi, the one you mentioned, as well. For quite a while she was Space June Cleaver saying, "That doesn't sound like the Beaver..." after the 50th occurrence of the Beaver being, well, The Beaver.
Just once I wanted to hear Ward flip out and say, "Oh, shut-up, June! That sounds EXACTLY like the Beaver! He does this every week!"
I just find this to be an attack on a franchise that is a model of what can be. If you want to call the entertainment industry a despicable thing then by all means direct your feelings of injustice to it.
In most if not all of the history of star trek it has been moving past petty differences and self enrichment. There is and I am sure will be instances where a person was objectified in some way. Can we say green slave women? Yet for all its down sides I have yet to see one not in command of there sexuality and confident.
I see no reason a woman can’t be in command of her sexuality and competent as well. That may be an old fashioned view and if so well so be it. As a side note it was not only women as others have pointed out is anyone here surprised that Kirk lost his shirt on more than one episode? Or the attraction women had for Spock?
The notion that we can gaze in to the past and pass judgment thru the lens of the present is crazy at its best. She was in command of a star ship, a crew, and as in most of star trek a confident woman in full command of her position yet capable of romance and secure in herself.
If the film crew, producers, Hollywood, director’s, were a low life fine I can see that but direct that to them not star trek.
Agree or not either way is fine this is my view take it as you will.
A woman can be in command of her sexuality and competent without wearing an impractical rubber fetish suit to work. That's the point. Unless their work actually involves wearing an impractical rubber fetish suit, but I'm pretty sure that's not what we're talking about here.
I prefer to see a female naval officer wearing a legit naval uniform (although the dress uniforms can certainly be done better--my mom had to take hers to a tailor before it would fit her properly).
To take an example from another franchise entirely, there's a visual update mod for Half-Life 2 called Cinematic Mod that's pretty popular, except for one thing (which you can thankfully choose not to install): what they did with Alyx Vance. She went from this...
... to this.
A lot of people said they liked her better when she looked like a normal girl next door who likes getting her hands dirty, rather than Adriana Lima. A later version of that mod even gave her pokies.
And since you bring up the Orions, they completely were just one-note fanservice until Enterprise retconned a matriarchy into it. And the episode that did that still managed to be a sexist piece of cr*p.
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
I just find this to be an attack on a franchise that is a model of what can be. If you want to call the entertainment industry a despicable thing then by all means direct your feelings of injustice to it.
In most if not all of the history of star trek it has been moving past petty differences and self enrichment. There is and I am sure will be instances where a person was objectified in some way. Can we say green slave women? Yet for all its down sides I have yet to see one not in command of there sexuality and confident.
I see no reason a woman can’t be in command of her sexuality and competent as well. That may be an old fashioned view and if so well so be it. As a side note it was not only women as others have pointed out is anyone here surprised that Kirk lost his shirt on more than one episode? Or the attraction women had for Spock?
The notion that we can gaze in to the past and pass judgment thru the lens of the present is crazy at its best. She was in command of a star ship, a crew, and as in most of star trek a confident woman in full command of her position yet capable of romance and secure in herself.
If the film crew, producers, Hollywood, director’s, were a low life fine I can see that but direct that to them not star trek.
Agree or not either way is fine this is my view take it as you will.
From what I've read and heard from a variety of sources - including Roddenberry's own son - Roddenberry was no saint in his actions toward women. Mulgrew calling him something of a misogynist is accurate as far as I'm concerned.
Never said he was a saint. My issue is star trek is not misogynistic. By all means you are welcome to hold your view as i am to hold mine. So lets say we disagree and call it a day.
OTOH, there's one image of a sexy woman from VOY that's burned into my brain, apparently from the episode "Macrocosm" (I don't really remember anything else from that episode, but an image search says that was it - sadly, the particular shot I wanted didn't come up in the search). Janeway's preparing to take her ship back from an invader. She's wearing a tank top, the Bun of Steel is slightly mussed, and she's got a bandolier of photon grenades. My mind took the picture just as she was shouldering a compression phaser rifle, about to head out of the armory.
Yeah, Jeri Ryan was/is a looker, but until they let her grow a personality she was pretty generic, and I found the catsuit to detract from her beauty. Warrior Janeway, on the other hand...
(I felt the same way about Troi in TNG, by the bye; she got a lot hotter to me when she put on the uniform and the scripts started giving her a brain.)
I also liked seeing Janeway be an action hero. Showed she was not just a commander, but a leader and a warrior. Also the First Contact style rifle was a MUCH better design than the fork that they had. Seems Voyager had both styles though, but I prefer the FC one.
Also I think Janeway looked better when they actually let her lose the bun. It was just too... severe honestly. Later season hair down looked better.
Although I will give Seven one thing...
She actually did look pretty good in a uniform.
Never said he was a saint. My issue is star trek is not misogynistic. By all means you are welcome to hold your view as i am to hold mine. So lets say we disagree and call it a day.
For the most part I would agree with you, however there were times when it is questionable. See any time Picard references Dr. Pulaski as "that woman" or any number of moments in TOS.
As for the linked article in the video, Mulgrew was saying TOS (not all of Star Trek) and Roddenberry himself were misogynistic. To that, I would personally agree. TOS was not exactly the gospel for women's equality.
As many said, the actresses liked the miniskirt uniforms. They could still be pros and women.
Hell, if I were in 24th or beyond Starfleet, I'd be clamoring for a return of a miniskirt uniform as well.
While we're on that, what does a former Borg need with an affectation like heels? Especially in light of the fact that humanity had yet to reassert itself! Such details bother me. I also wondered what kind of hack would accept payment for designing 7 of 9's costume? I found it to be that bad.
Well, I would. Dont wanna give up my heels. Plus all my life I've had naturally higher arches than most folks, so I need a heel of some sort, even my casual footwear are either cowboy boots or something with a 2 inch heel at least.
Anyhow, still feel Kate needs to get the broomstick out of her you know what.
In most if not all of the history of star trek it has been moving past petty differences and self enrichment. There is and I am sure will be instances where a person was objectified in some way. Can we say green slave women? Yet for all its down sides I have yet to see one not in command of there sexuality and confident.
This is part of what I like about Orions. They're not forced to wear skimpy outfits, they do it because they like it.
As far as Star Trek being misogynist due to Seven of Nine's catsuit, that only proves that the Doctor is a misogynist since he designed her clothing. As long as it is within reason, men and women should be able to wear what they want within reason. No one should suffer from the torture of witnessing a 400 lb man or woman wearing Betazoid wedding attire.
While we're on that, what does a former Borg need with an affectation like heels? Especially in light of the fact that humanity had yet to reassert itself! Such details bother me. I also wondered what kind of hack would accept payment for designing 7 of 9's costume? I found it to be that bad.
Well, I would. Dont wanna give up my heels. Plus all my life I've had naturally higher arches than most folks, so I need a heel of some sort, even my casual footwear are either cowboy boots or something with a 2 inch heel at least.
Anyhow, still feel Kate needs to get the broomstick out of her you know what.
Unfortunately that broomstick was an integral feature of Voyager until Wang kicked up such a fuss that the fans got involved. One of the top executives had the weird idea that they had to have all the humans act like boring sticks in order to make the aliens seem quirkier. It was a very lazy way to go about it, and it killed the "two crews forced to work together" thread despite them trying to keep it going, as well as putting an unnessesary wet blanket on the show overall until near the end of the series.
And since you bring up the Orions, they completely were just one-note fanservice until Enterprise retconned a matriarchy into it. And the episode that did that still managed to be a sexist piece of cr*p.
Actually, even in The Cage the Orion women were more than they seemed. Roddenberry was often asked about the green Orion women and he talked about how they were part of the sales/diplomatic strategy by actively working to distract the mark so their partner/employer/whatever, who "hosted" the informal meeting could take advantage of that distraction to drive the best deal for them. The setup was based on an actual realworld practice that western traders often fell for back in the old sailing ship days, and those were sometime even agencies run by women who hired out to network, manipulate, entertain, and distract for a fee.
The matriarchal rework always seemed like the ENT writers got the Orions mixed up with the Elasians, but it works well enough and it is definitely better than if they explored the concept using Elas and Troyius since that would be another anomalous contact since they were not discovered until the mid 2200s or thereabouts.
> @echatty said: > And so it was, to an extent. Women in Trek started out being there just as pretty faces. Granted, some of them went beyond that and made their characters awesome, but for the most part, women were there as sexual objects. That was pretty obvious to all but the most ardent asexual person. > > However, I did not see anywhere that says she's angry about Jeri Ryan being in Picard and she (Kate) isn't. That's some pretty hefty extrapolation on that.
Nothing wrong with sex appeal , the men had it to and the women had deep interesting characters. > @valoreah said: > smokebailey wrote: » > > As many said, the actresses liked the miniskirt uniforms. They could still be pros and women. > > > > > Well sure. That doesn't negate TOS being misogynistic at times - nor any other instances of misogyny in Star Trek.
There are no instances of misgyny, hatred of women in Star TrekTrek , so there is nothing to negate.
And don't give me that misgyny does just mean the hatred of women because it meant exactly that for centuries, just because feminist changed it and bullied dictionaries to change it as well for political purpose doesn't make it true or that the rest of us have buy into it.
> @phoenixc#0738 said: > smokebailey wrote: » > > theboxisred wrote: » > > > > > While we're on that, what does a former Borg need with an affectation like heels? Especially in light of the fact that humanity had yet to reassert itself! Such details bother me. I also wondered what kind of hack would accept payment for designing 7 of 9's costume? I found it to be that bad. > > > > > Well, I would. Dont wanna give up my heels. Plus all my life I've had naturally higher arches than most folks, so I need a heel of some sort, even my casual footwear are either cowboy boots or something with a 2 inch heel at least. > > Anyhow, still feel Kate needs to get the broomstick out of her you know what. > > > > > > Unfortunately that broomstick was an integral feature of Voyager until Wang kicked up such a fuss that the fans got involved. One of the top executives had the weird idea that they had to have all the humans act like boring sticks in order to make the aliens seem quirkier. It was a very lazy way to go about it, and it killed the "two crews forced to work together" thread despite them trying to keep it going, as well as putting an unnessesary wet blanket on the show overall until near the end of the series. > starswordc wrote: » > > And since you bring up the Orions, they completely were just one-note fanservice until Enterprise retconned a matriarchy into it. And the episode that did that still managed to be a sexist piece of cr*p. > > > > > Actually, even in The Cage the Orion women were more than they seemed. Roddenberry was often asked about the green Orion women and he talked about how they were part of the sales/diplomatic strategy by actively working to distract the mark so their partner/employer/whatever, who "hosted" the informal meeting could take advantage of that distraction to drive the best deal for them. The setup was based on an actual realworld practice that western traders often fell for back in the old sailing ship days, and those were sometime even agencies run by women who hired out to network, manipulate, entertain, and distract for a fee. > > The matriarchal rework always seemed like the ENT writers got the Orions mixed up with the Elasians, but it works well enough and it is definitely better than if they explored the concept using Elas and Troyius since that would be another anomalous contact since they were not discovered until the mid 2200s or thereabouts.
After Enterprise I pictured Orion Society having a social structure based on a less ethical version BDSM culture, where the Orion Women rule, but they enjoy being submissive in flirtations and the bedroom.
Drow is like a Radical Feminist Society and the Orions are like Intersectional Feminist Society, more sublte and they spend more time pretending to be the victim, when they are running the show.
> @echatty said:
> And so it was, to an extent. Women in Trek started out being there just as pretty faces. Granted, some of them went beyond that and made their characters awesome, but for the most part, women were there as sexual objects. That was pretty obvious to all but the most ardent asexual person.
>
> However, I did not see anywhere that says she's angry about Jeri Ryan being in Picard and she (Kate) isn't. That's some pretty hefty extrapolation on that.
Nothing wrong with sex appeal , the men had it to and the women had deep interesting characters. > @valoreah said:
> smokebailey wrote: »
>
> As many said, the actresses liked the miniskirt uniforms. They could still be pros and women.
>
>
>
>
> Well sure. That doesn't negate TOS being misogynistic at times - nor any other instances of misogyny in Star Trek.
There are no instances of misgyny, hatred of women in Star TrekTrek , so there is nothing to negate.
And don't give me that misgyny does just mean the hatred of women because it meant exactly that for centuries, just because feminist changed it and bullied dictionaries to change it as well for political purpose doesn't make it true or that the rest of us have buy into it.
You have your opinion, which you are entitled to and I have mine. The tone of your post doesn't bode well for any kind of respectful debate, so I'm not even going to try.
Now a LTS and loving it.
Just because you spend money on this game, it does not entitle you to be a jerk if things don't go your way.
I have come to the conclusion that I have a memory like Etch-A-Sketch. I shake my head and forget everything.
> @echatty said: > lordgyor wrote: » > > > @echatty said: > > And so it was, to an extent. Women in Trek started out being there just as pretty faces. Granted, some of them went beyond that and made their characters awesome, but for the most part, women were there as sexual objects. That was pretty obvious to all but the most ardent asexual person. > > > > However, I did not see anywhere that says she's angry about Jeri Ryan being in Picard and she (Kate) isn't. That's some pretty hefty extrapolation on that. > > Nothing wrong with sex appeal , the men had it to and the women had deep interesting characters. > @valoreah said: > > smokebailey wrote: » > > > > As many said, the actresses liked the miniskirt uniforms. They could still be pros and women. > > > > > > > > > > Well sure. That doesn't negate TOS being misogynistic at times - nor any other instances of misogyny in Star Trek. > > There are no instances of misgyny, hatred of women in Star TrekTrek , so there is nothing to negate. > > And don't give me that misgyny does just mean the hatred of women because it meant exactly that for centuries, just because feminist changed it and bullied dictionaries to change it as well for political purpose doesn't make it true or that the rest of us have buy into it. > > > > > You have your opinion, which you are entitled to and I have mine. The tone of your post doesn't bode well for any kind of respectful debate, so I'm not even going to try.
I did not insulted you at all, for the record, I was never unpolite, just honest, I go by the actual defination, not the politically motiavated one.
> @echatty said:
> And so it was, to an extent. Women in Trek started out being there just as pretty faces. Granted, some of them went beyond that and made their characters awesome, but for the most part, women were there as sexual objects. That was pretty obvious to all but the most ardent asexual person.
>
> However, I did not see anywhere that says she's angry about Jeri Ryan being in Picard and she (Kate) isn't. That's some pretty hefty extrapolation on that.
Nothing wrong with sex appeal , the men had it to and the women had deep interesting characters. > @valoreah said:
> smokebailey wrote: »
>
> As many said, the actresses liked the miniskirt uniforms. They could still be pros and women.
>
>
>
>
> Well sure. That doesn't negate TOS being misogynistic at times - nor any other instances of misogyny in Star Trek.
There are no instances of misgyny, hatred of women in Star TrekTrek , so there is nothing to negate.
And don't give me that misgyny does just mean the hatred of women because it meant exactly that for centuries, just because feminist changed it and bullied dictionaries to change it as well for political purpose doesn't make it true or that the rest of us have buy into it.
You have your opinion, which you are entitled to and I have mine. The tone of your post doesn't bode well for any kind of respectful debate, so I'm not even going to try.
He's correct, though. The word misogyny is so overused and misapplied that it has strayed far beyond the bounds of accuracy. So much so that Mimi Bobeck's make-up is jealous. Now if one wanted to argue on the grounds of sexploitation they would have a much better chance of making a case. Of course, Ms. Mulgrew didn't argue on the grounds of sexploitation. It leaves her looking as though she proceeded from a false premise.
I would submit that striving for accuracy will not inhibit debate to the degree that tone policing will. Indeed striving for accuracy would widen a debate rather than inhibit debate. What you suggested leaves you with the appearance of a Saul Alinsky adherent. To paraphrase Alinsky, "Accuse your opponent of that for which you are already guilty." Mind you, that tactic has also been ascribed to Karl Marx and Joseph Goebbels. In any event it is bad optics and I would hate for you to be stuck with those optics when you have good ideas to offer.
While we're on that, what does a former Borg need with an affectation like heels? Especially in light of the fact that humanity had yet to reassert itself! Such details bother me. I also wondered what kind of hack would accept payment for designing 7 of 9's costume? I found it to be that bad.
Well, I would. Dont wanna give up my heels. Plus all my life I've had naturally higher arches than most folks, so I need a heel of some sort, even my casual footwear are either cowboy boots or something with a 2 inch heel at least.
Anyhow, still feel Kate needs to get the broomstick out of her you know what.
I wouldn't begrudge you that. I'm just saying it doesn't make sense in 7 of 9's case to have such an affectation so soon after her... un/deBorgification.
Thanks, though, because now I have this image of Kate Mulgrew walking out on stage and using a Bruce Campbell line to comedic effect... "You see this? This... is my BROOMstick!"
> @valoreah said: > lordgyor wrote: » > > There are no instances of misgyny, hatred of women in Star TrekTrek , so there is nothing to negate. > > > > > Clearly you've never watched selected episodes of Star Trek or don't understand what misogyny is, or both. Captain Kirk telling a woman he'll "give her a spanking" isn't respecting her as an equal I can assure you.
Why kink shame Kirk? 50 Shades of Grey is very popular among women for a reason.
Comments
Kate Mulgrew had a career long before her stint with Star Trek. Mrs. Columbo and Remo Williams are two stand outs as far as I'm concerned. Plus she's had a career since then as well. Her career is marked by a variety of roles. She just never had the spotlight for long stretches of time.
I would suggest that one should decide for themselves what is and is not sexy.
OTOH, there's one image of a sexy woman from VOY that's burned into my brain, apparently from the episode "Macrocosm" (I don't really remember anything else from that episode, but an image search says that was it - sadly, the particular shot I wanted didn't come up in the search). Janeway's preparing to take her ship back from an invader. She's wearing a tank top, the Bun of Steel is slightly mussed, and she's got a bandolier of photon grenades. My mind took the picture just as she was shouldering a compression phaser rifle, about to head out of the armory.
Yeah, Jeri Ryan was/is a looker, but until they let her grow a personality she was pretty generic, and I found the catsuit to detract from her beauty. Warrior Janeway, on the other hand...
(I felt the same way about Troi in TNG, by the bye; she got a lot hotter to me when she put on the uniform and the scripts started giving her a brain.)
Indeed, I misread your post. Twice even. Oh, well. At least we share a good concept.
Yep. Call me crazy, but I find this...
... and this...
...way sexier than catsuits of any kind.
I really like this fan redesign of Seven.
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
In most if not all of the history of star trek it has been moving past petty differences and self enrichment. There is and I am sure will be instances where a person was objectified in some way. Can we say green slave women? Yet for all its down sides I have yet to see one not in command of there sexuality and confident.
I see no reason a woman can’t be in command of her sexuality and competent as well. That may be an old fashioned view and if so well so be it. As a side note it was not only women as others have pointed out is anyone here surprised that Kirk lost his shirt on more than one episode? Or the attraction women had for Spock?
The notion that we can gaze in to the past and pass judgment thru the lens of the present is crazy at its best. She was in command of a star ship, a crew, and as in most of star trek a confident woman in full command of her position yet capable of romance and secure in herself.
If the film crew, producers, Hollywood, director’s, were a low life fine I can see that but direct that to them not star trek.
Agree or not either way is fine this is my view take it as you will.
While we're on that, what does a former Borg need with an affectation like heels? Especially in light of the fact that humanity had yet to reassert itself! Such details bother me. I also wondered what kind of hack would accept payment for designing 7 of 9's costume? I found it to be that bad.
Count me in on that aspect of Deanna Troi, the one you mentioned, as well. For quite a while she was Space June Cleaver saying, "That doesn't sound like the Beaver..." after the 50th occurrence of the Beaver being, well, The Beaver.
Just once I wanted to hear Ward flip out and say, "Oh, shut-up, June! That sounds EXACTLY like the Beaver! He does this every week!"
A woman can be in command of her sexuality and competent without wearing an impractical rubber fetish suit to work. That's the point. Unless their work actually involves wearing an impractical rubber fetish suit, but I'm pretty sure that's not what we're talking about here.
I prefer to see a female naval officer wearing a legit naval uniform (although the dress uniforms can certainly be done better--my mom had to take hers to a tailor before it would fit her properly).
To take an example from another franchise entirely, there's a visual update mod for Half-Life 2 called Cinematic Mod that's pretty popular, except for one thing (which you can thankfully choose not to install): what they did with Alyx Vance. She went from this...
... to this.
A lot of people said they liked her better when she looked like a normal girl next door who likes getting her hands dirty, rather than Adriana Lima. A later version of that mod even gave her pokies.
And since you bring up the Orions, they completely were just one-note fanservice until Enterprise retconned a matriarchy into it. And the episode that did that still managed to be a sexist piece of cr*p.
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
Never said he was a saint. My issue is star trek is not misogynistic. By all means you are welcome to hold your view as i am to hold mine. So lets say we disagree and call it a day.
I also liked seeing Janeway be an action hero. Showed she was not just a commander, but a leader and a warrior. Also the First Contact style rifle was a MUCH better design than the fork that they had. Seems Voyager had both styles though, but I prefer the FC one.
Also I think Janeway looked better when they actually let her lose the bun. It was just too... severe honestly. Later season hair down looked better.
Although I will give Seven one thing...
She actually did look pretty good in a uniform.
Hell, if I were in 24th or beyond Starfleet, I'd be clamoring for a return of a miniskirt uniform as well.
Well, I would. Dont wanna give up my heels. Plus all my life I've had naturally higher arches than most folks, so I need a heel of some sort, even my casual footwear are either cowboy boots or something with a 2 inch heel at least.
Anyhow, still feel Kate needs to get the broomstick out of her you know what.
My character Tsin'xing
Unfortunately that broomstick was an integral feature of Voyager until Wang kicked up such a fuss that the fans got involved. One of the top executives had the weird idea that they had to have all the humans act like boring sticks in order to make the aliens seem quirkier. It was a very lazy way to go about it, and it killed the "two crews forced to work together" thread despite them trying to keep it going, as well as putting an unnessesary wet blanket on the show overall until near the end of the series.
Actually, even in The Cage the Orion women were more than they seemed. Roddenberry was often asked about the green Orion women and he talked about how they were part of the sales/diplomatic strategy by actively working to distract the mark so their partner/employer/whatever, who "hosted" the informal meeting could take advantage of that distraction to drive the best deal for them. The setup was based on an actual realworld practice that western traders often fell for back in the old sailing ship days, and those were sometime even agencies run by women who hired out to network, manipulate, entertain, and distract for a fee.
The matriarchal rework always seemed like the ENT writers got the Orions mixed up with the Elasians, but it works well enough and it is definitely better than if they explored the concept using Elas and Troyius since that would be another anomalous contact since they were not discovered until the mid 2200s or thereabouts.
> And so it was, to an extent. Women in Trek started out being there just as pretty faces. Granted, some of them went beyond that and made their characters awesome, but for the most part, women were there as sexual objects. That was pretty obvious to all but the most ardent asexual person.
>
> However, I did not see anywhere that says she's angry about Jeri Ryan being in Picard and she (Kate) isn't. That's some pretty hefty extrapolation on that.
Nothing wrong with sex appeal , the men had it to and the women had deep interesting characters. > @valoreah said:
> smokebailey wrote: »
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> As many said, the actresses liked the miniskirt uniforms. They could still be pros and women.
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> Well sure. That doesn't negate TOS being misogynistic at times - nor any other instances of misogyny in Star Trek.
There are no instances of misgyny, hatred of women in Star TrekTrek , so there is nothing to negate.
And don't give me that misgyny does just mean the hatred of women because it meant exactly that for centuries, just because feminist changed it and bullied dictionaries to change it as well for political purpose doesn't make it true or that the rest of us have buy into it.
> smokebailey wrote: »
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> theboxisred wrote: »
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> While we're on that, what does a former Borg need with an affectation like heels? Especially in light of the fact that humanity had yet to reassert itself! Such details bother me. I also wondered what kind of hack would accept payment for designing 7 of 9's costume? I found it to be that bad.
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> Well, I would. Dont wanna give up my heels. Plus all my life I've had naturally higher arches than most folks, so I need a heel of some sort, even my casual footwear are either cowboy boots or something with a 2 inch heel at least.
>
> Anyhow, still feel Kate needs to get the broomstick out of her you know what.
>
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> Unfortunately that broomstick was an integral feature of Voyager until Wang kicked up such a fuss that the fans got involved. One of the top executives had the weird idea that they had to have all the humans act like boring sticks in order to make the aliens seem quirkier. It was a very lazy way to go about it, and it killed the "two crews forced to work together" thread despite them trying to keep it going, as well as putting an unnessesary wet blanket on the show overall until near the end of the series.
> starswordc wrote: »
>
> And since you bring up the Orions, they completely were just one-note fanservice until Enterprise retconned a matriarchy into it. And the episode that did that still managed to be a sexist piece of cr*p.
>
>
>
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> Actually, even in The Cage the Orion women were more than they seemed. Roddenberry was often asked about the green Orion women and he talked about how they were part of the sales/diplomatic strategy by actively working to distract the mark so their partner/employer/whatever, who "hosted" the informal meeting could take advantage of that distraction to drive the best deal for them. The setup was based on an actual realworld practice that western traders often fell for back in the old sailing ship days, and those were sometime even agencies run by women who hired out to network, manipulate, entertain, and distract for a fee.
>
> The matriarchal rework always seemed like the ENT writers got the Orions mixed up with the Elasians, but it works well enough and it is definitely better than if they explored the concept using Elas and Troyius since that would be another anomalous contact since they were not discovered until the mid 2200s or thereabouts.
After Enterprise I pictured Orion Society having a social structure based on a less ethical version BDSM culture, where the Orion Women rule, but they enjoy being submissive in flirtations and the bedroom.
Drow is like a Radical Feminist Society and the Orions are like Intersectional Feminist Society, more sublte and they spend more time pretending to be the victim, when they are running the show.
You have your opinion, which you are entitled to and I have mine. The tone of your post doesn't bode well for any kind of respectful debate, so I'm not even going to try.
> lordgyor wrote: »
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> > @echatty said:
> > And so it was, to an extent. Women in Trek started out being there just as pretty faces. Granted, some of them went beyond that and made their characters awesome, but for the most part, women were there as sexual objects. That was pretty obvious to all but the most ardent asexual person.
> >
> > However, I did not see anywhere that says she's angry about Jeri Ryan being in Picard and she (Kate) isn't. That's some pretty hefty extrapolation on that.
>
> Nothing wrong with sex appeal , the men had it to and the women had deep interesting characters. > @valoreah said:
> > smokebailey wrote: »
> >
> > As many said, the actresses liked the miniskirt uniforms. They could still be pros and women.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Well sure. That doesn't negate TOS being misogynistic at times - nor any other instances of misogyny in Star Trek.
>
> There are no instances of misgyny, hatred of women in Star TrekTrek , so there is nothing to negate.
>
> And don't give me that misgyny does just mean the hatred of women because it meant exactly that for centuries, just because feminist changed it and bullied dictionaries to change it as well for political purpose doesn't make it true or that the rest of us have buy into it.
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>
>
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> You have your opinion, which you are entitled to and I have mine. The tone of your post doesn't bode well for any kind of respectful debate, so I'm not even going to try.
I did not insulted you at all, for the record, I was never unpolite, just honest, I go by the actual defination, not the politically motiavated one.
Have a wonderful life.
He's correct, though. The word misogyny is so overused and misapplied that it has strayed far beyond the bounds of accuracy. So much so that Mimi Bobeck's make-up is jealous. Now if one wanted to argue on the grounds of sexploitation they would have a much better chance of making a case. Of course, Ms. Mulgrew didn't argue on the grounds of sexploitation. It leaves her looking as though she proceeded from a false premise.
I would submit that striving for accuracy will not inhibit debate to the degree that tone policing will. Indeed striving for accuracy would widen a debate rather than inhibit debate. What you suggested leaves you with the appearance of a Saul Alinsky adherent. To paraphrase Alinsky, "Accuse your opponent of that for which you are already guilty." Mind you, that tactic has also been ascribed to Karl Marx and Joseph Goebbels. In any event it is bad optics and I would hate for you to be stuck with those optics when you have good ideas to offer.
I wouldn't begrudge you that. I'm just saying it doesn't make sense in 7 of 9's case to have such an affectation so soon after her... un/deBorgification.
Thanks, though, because now I have this image of Kate Mulgrew walking out on stage and using a Bruce Campbell line to comedic effect... "You see this? This... is my BROOMstick!"
> lordgyor wrote: »
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> There are no instances of misgyny, hatred of women in Star TrekTrek , so there is nothing to negate.
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> Clearly you've never watched selected episodes of Star Trek or don't understand what misogyny is, or both. Captain Kirk telling a woman he'll "give her a spanking" isn't respecting her as an equal I can assure you.
Why kink shame Kirk? 50 Shades of Grey is very popular among women for a reason.
Either way it still doesn't show he hates women.