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AXANAR locks in START DATE for Filming!

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  • azrael605azrael605 Member Posts: 10,584 Arc User
    > @phoenixc#0738 said:
    > equinox976 wrote: »
    >
    > phoenixc#0738 wrote: »
    >
    >
    > To be fair, what Axanar was trying to do was goad CBS into making a Star Trek series (which did happen and may not have without the Axanar thing worrying the CBS legal department about the length of time they let the Star Trek IP lay fallow if they did not aggressively push back).
    >
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    > Not sure how you draw those conclusions - a gnat like Peters is very unlikely to cause any worry to CBS, the only reason their legal department got involved was because it was attempting to exploit the I.P for personal gain.
    >
    > There is no doubt that after the success of the 2009 reboot, that CBS would want to cash in on that success, and I seriously doubt that Axanar/Prelude to Axanar had anything to do with that decision.
    >
    > You give Peters far more credit than he deserves in regard to his motivations; he exploited the fanbase in order to make a personal gain, it was nothing to do with 'goading' anybody into make a new Trek' series.
    >
    > Edit: P.S - Star Trek Continues is a FAR better production than Prelude to Axanar, and did not 'goad' CBS into creating a new series, or 'worry' it's legal department.
    >
    >
    >
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    > I did not say Continues did anything like that, all I said was that it was the best of the fan films.
    >
    > Even a gnat can be an annoyance, and there is precedent for claims of abandoned IP (not that I think it would have succeeded anyway, in fact Axanar tried that as a defense and failed). Peters' actions were questionable at the very least, but not too far off the beam as far as the Hollywood snakepit goes. And he (along with a few of the others involved) did claim they were goading CBS to make a Trek series so I am just giving him the benefit of the doubt. And the way Peters talked gave a strong impression that he was fishing for CBS to hire or buy his new studio even though he never came out and said it (which is also the kind of hustle that happens in the industry all too often since a buyout or contract is usually cheaper than a court battle and there is a certain sense of panache about the boldness of the move in Hollywood).
    > rattler2 wrote: »
    >
    > phoenixc#0738 wrote: »
    >
    > Also, if you piece together some of Peters' unguarded offhand statements it looks like they were hoping to be bought by CBS or at the very least CBS would hire them to do a series for a lower cost than Bad Robot is charging them.
    >
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    > Uh... Bad Robot is not involved with CBS at all. They were involved with Paramount on the Kelvin Timeline movies.
    >
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    > True enough now (though a lot of Bad Robot people went to work on DSC), but at the time the obvious go to was Bad Robot, the only professional studio to have worked on any form of Trek since ENT ended, back when Peters was setting up Axanar.

    Alex Kurtzman, the only person who worked on the Kelvin films that is working on Discovery, never worked for Bad Robot. K/O Paper Products, the script writing company owned by Orci and Kurtzman, were hired by Paramount to write the script for the Bad Robot films. At no time was Kurtzman an employee of Bad Robot.
    There ain't no such thing as a free lunch.

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  • starkaosstarkaos Member Posts: 10,949 Arc User
    artan42 wrote: »
    starkaos wrote: »
    artan42 wrote: »
    equinox976 wrote: »
    There is no doubt that after the success of the 2009 reboot

    There was no reboot of ST in 2009. the KT films are in the same canon as all previous films and TV shows so aren't reboots.

    The only canon in Star Trek 2009 is Spock. If Star Trek 2009 didn't have Spock, then it would have been a reboot instead of being the confusing mess that it is.

    Not even slightly. Also, Spock is from TOS, that makes him one of the only links from previous instalments. The fact that this is a film in the same canon as the others is what makes it canon, not how many characters are from previous instalments. Canon is not continuity, canon is up to the franchise owners.

    It's also really not confusing in the slightest. 8 years after NEM Spock and Nero travel back in time to 60 after ENT in 2233, their presence creates an alternate timeline à la Yesterday's Enterprise, that persists to at least 2263, running concurrently with DSC. All those facts are spelt out in the films. The only reason you fine it complicated is you keep ignoring the films and making up your own quantum bollocks. That's on you, not the films.
    ​​

    It is canon that the Kelvin Timeline and Prime Timeline exist in the same multiverse, but the canon of the Kelvin Timeline and Prime Timeline is mostly restricted to itself. Nothing in the Kelvin Timeline will affect the Prime Timeline while Spock is the only link from the canon in the Prime Timeline and the Kelvin Timeline. There is no USS Discovery with a Spore Drive with Burnham that is dealing with a rogue AI in the Kelvin Timeline and Vulcan is not destroyed in the Prime Timeline.

    The only difference between standard reboots and Star Trek 2009 is Star Trek 2009 used Spock to link TOS with Star Trek 2009. Without the presence of Spock, then Star Trek 2009 is a standard reboot.

    The confusing mess is that Star Trek 2009 wanted to be a reboot without being a reboot. Why else would they use Kirk and his crew with a completely new origin story if they didn't want to do a messy reboot of TOS? At least Seth MacFarlane had the decency to create his own unique version of TOS to act out his fantasy of being Captain Kirk or whatever his reason for creating a TV Series that is in the same style as TOS. As far as the vast majority of people are concerned, if a new series or movie has the same characters while using different actors and tells a different story, then it is a reboot. Besides the vast majority of reboots could be considered as happening in an alternate reality to the original series or movie.

  • jonsillsjonsills Member Posts: 8,659 Arc User
    The only person who seems confused here, Star, is you. I suggest you avoid Marvel Comics' title Exiles - that's a team drawn from across Marvel's (so far) 200,000 known timelines, whose purpose is to patrol those timelines to prevent such events as the collision and melding of 616 and 1610 (an event that nearly destroyed both universes). You'd be totally lost - the most recent lineup included Wolvie of the X-Babies and Peggy Carter as Captain America.
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  • starkaosstarkaos Member Posts: 10,949 Arc User
    jonsills wrote: »
    The only person who seems confused here, Star, is you. I suggest you avoid Marvel Comics' title Exiles - that's a team drawn from across Marvel's (so far) 200,000 known timelines, whose purpose is to patrol those timelines to prevent such events as the collision and melding of 616 and 1610 (an event that nearly destroyed both universes). You'd be totally lost - the most recent lineup included Wolvie of the X-Babies and Peggy Carter as Captain America.

    Star Trek 2009 is a sequel/continuation only as far as old Spock and the destruction of Romulus is concerned. It is a reboot since it has the same characters as TOS, but a completely different history. It can't be a prequel since it is not set before TOS, but in its own reality. If Star Trek 2009 never had old Spock, then it would be a standard reboot with absolutely no connection to the previous series and movies. So how am I confused here?

    As far as me being confused and totally lost reading something like the Exiles that is merely your opinion and is an ad hominem attack. I have read Exiles, but it was years ago.
  • artan42artan42 Member Posts: 10,273 Bug Hunter
    edited July 5
    rattler2 wrote: »
    I think the Enterprise's torpedos had homing capability.

    It's always possible, however I don't actually remember the Enterprise firing torpedoes. They must have at some point as we have the in STO.
    I would expect some sort of divergence after 2233 anyway, and guided torpedoes could have been one. Though now it can be seen, thanks to DSC, that even the KT proper isn't massivly different from the prime timeline in terms of technology.
    starkaos wrote: »
    It is canon that the Kelvin Timeline and Prime Timeline exist in the same multiverse, but the canon of the Kelvin Timeline and Prime Timeline is mostly restricted to itself. Nothing in the Kelvin Timeline will affect the Prime Timeline while Spock is the only link from the canon in the Prime Timeline and the Kelvin Timeline. There is no USS Discovery with a Spore Drive with Burnham that is dealing with a rogue AI in the Kelvin Timeline and Vulcan is not destroyed in the Prime Timeline.

    No. Canon is an external mechanism. There is not 'prime canon' and 'KT canon', there is only Star Trek canon. The same canon covers 09, it covers Yesterday's Enterprise, it covers AGT, it covers Yesteryear, and so on.
    starkaos wrote: »
    The only difference between standard reboots and Star Trek 2009 is Star Trek 2009 used Spock to link TOS with Star Trek 2009. Without the presence of Spock, then Star Trek 2009 is a standard reboot.

    No it's not. It takes place in the same canon as the rest of the franchise regardless of character crossovers. The TV show Runaways is in the MCU, it is part of that canon, it currently has no characters from the rest of the franchise in it, nor does it reference other MCU events (unlike, say, Cloak & Dagger that namedrops Stark and Rand). The only thing it requires to be part of the same canon is the word of the IP owners, not a continuity link, ditto for the KT films.
    starkaos wrote: »
    The confusing mess is that Star Trek 2009 wanted to be a reboot without being a reboot. Why else would they use Kirk and his crew with a completely new origin story if they didn't want to do a messy reboot of TOS?

    Just because Abrams wanted a reboot, it dosn't mean it is. Now we know for a fact it's not and Abrams was told to go swivel, we know it's identical to any other time travel story in the franchise and it only confuses you because you seem to take one minor, early production stage, concept and assume it still influenced the production years later. Is TMP confusing to you because it was originally intended to be a TV show called Phase II?
    starkaos wrote: »
    As far as the vast majority of people are concerned, if a new series or movie has the same characters while using different actors and tells a different story, then it is a reboot.

    Irrelevant. Argumentum ad populum.
    starkaos wrote: »
    Besides the vast majority of reboots could be considered as happening in an alternate reality to the original series or movie.

    If the canon of a particular franchise allows for alternate universes and the newer work specifically takes place in one of those then it's taking place inside the same canon and is therefore not a reboot.

    If the canon doesn't allow for alternate universes or the newer work is not confirmed to be in the same work then it's a reboot.

    The MCU has alternate timelines (as seen in A:E and AoS) however Hulk 2003, and the Spider-Man trilogy are not part of any of it's alternate timelines nor are they canon because the IP owners say so. That makes the MCUs Spider-Man and Hulk films reboots of those previous ones.
    starkaos wrote: »
    Star Trek 2009 is a sequel/continuation only as far as old Spock and the destruction of Romulus is concerned. It is a reboot since it has the same characters as TOS, but a completely different history. It can't be a prequel since it is not set before TOS, but in its own reality. If Star Trek 2009 never had old Spock, then it would be a standard reboot with absolutely no connection to the previous series and movies. So how am I confused here?

    Endgame is only a continuation as far as old Janeway and the return of The Voyager are concerned. It is a reboot since it has the same characters as TOS, but a completely different history.

    I started off doing this but after a deeper reading I realiswd you were making things up again.

    The KT DOES NOT have a 'different history' to TOS until after 2233. It really is not that hard, you are massivly confused because you're making thins up and not reading any replies nor are you watching Star Trek. A changed timeline does not change the canon, it does not reboot the franchise, and it is not confusing.

    Reboots require new canon. Canon is decided by the IP owners, not by the story. CBS have never rebooted ST. CBS are the IP owners. Ergo Star TRek has never been rebooted.

    You seem obsessed over this delusion you have that canon is part of the internal structure of individual episodes or films and I really don't understand where you get it from. You do not own the IP, so pay attention to what CBS tells you is true and stop making our own canon up and all of a sudden you'll stop being confused.​​
    22762792376_ac7c992b7c_o.png
    Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
    JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.

    #TASforSTO


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    '...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
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  • shadowfang240shadowfang240 Member Posts: 33,269 Arc User
    if we're talking KT, the enterprise fired torpedoes several times at the narada to hasten its implosion into the singularity spock ramming the jellyfish into the ship caused​​
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  • starkaosstarkaos Member Posts: 10,949 Arc User
    artan42 wrote: »
    The KT DOES NOT have a 'different history' to TOS until after 2233. It really is not that hard, you are massivly confused because you're making thins up and not reading any replies nor are you watching Star Trek. A changed timeline does not change the canon, it does not reboot the franchise, and it is not confusing.

    You seem obsessed over this delusion you have that canon is part of the internal structure of individual episodes or films and I really don't understand where you get it from. You do not own the IP, so pay attention to what CBS tells you is true and stop making our own canon up and all of a sudden you'll stop being confused.​​

    The IP owners and by extension the canon dictates the rules of what can happen. Canon has to do with the internal structure of the entire fictional universe not just the internal structure of individual episodes or films. Since the Prime Timeline and Kelvin Timeline have their own set of rules that can happen, then they have their own separate canon while belonging to the same Canon. The canon dictates what can and can't happen within the internal structure of individual episodes or films. If Star Trek 4 is created, then it can't have a scene on Vulcan and the new Picard series can't have a scene on Romulus or have a CGI appearance of Spock unless it involves a flashback.
    Reboots require new canon. Canon is decided by the IP owners, not by the story. CBS have never rebooted ST. CBS are the IP owners. Ergo Star TRek has never been rebooted.

    It is Paramount that created Star Trek 2009 not CBS. So if anyone rebooted Star Trek, it would be Paramount not CBS. AFAIK, Paramount owns the rights to any Star Trek movies while CBS owns the rights to any Star Trek TV series. Since Paramount owned the rights to the ships from the new Star Trek movies, then Cryptic had to negotiate with Paramount to get permission to add those ships to STO.



  • jonsillsjonsills Member Posts: 8,659 Arc User
    You say you've read Exiles - but you're horribly confused by just one spinoff universe in Trek?

    The Kelvin Timeline is not a reboot. The new Battlestar Galactica was a reboot - the Twelve Colonies were different, the Cylons were a creation of humans rather than being the warrior robots of a dead civilization of reptiles, they actually seemed to understand the difference between FTL and STL, etc. The KT is a variant universe, and the only "evidence" of anything being any different about physics there is the cosmetic appearance of warp drive. And has been pointed out to you, that has changed from incarnation to incarnation even in the same time period. TOS: "The Cage" (and the scenes used from it in TOS: "The Menagerie") had the ship turning translucent, with a moving starfield visible through it; we had no interaction with the characters during transit. TOS in general abandoned the translucent effect, settling for the much less expensive "ship accelerates away" and then having a moving starfield background while under way.

    In TMP, warp drive involved a series of rainbow circles, the phenomenon referred to earlier as "summoning the Bifrost". Later TOS movies had warp drive characterized by a rainbow trail. TNG had ships accelerate to a vanishing point, then disappear in a clap of thunder and a flash of light. And so forth. Nobody ever tried to claim there was any difference in physics, or that those were different universes, or reboots or whatever other term you might choose - we all just accepted that art can evolve.
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  • azrael605azrael605 Member Posts: 10,584 Arc User
    @starkaos

    In actual fact, confirmed in court documents during the Axanar suit.

    CBS owns Trek 100 percent completely. Paramount liscenses the film rights from CBS however they do not own them and if they do not produce a film soon those rights will revert to CBS automatically.

    These facts were confirmed by both companies during the suit.
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  • artan42artan42 Member Posts: 10,273 Bug Hunter
    @starkaos. Back to having the posts hidden. If you want to make things complicated by making stuff up and then demanding the film abide by your made up stuff then go for it. I'm sure it makes you happy. It sure as hell dosn't make you correct, and means that any conclusions you draw will be based on made up evidence and thus, fallacious. However, you've never changed that approach, preferring a comforting lie to the, often dull, truth and I really can't be bothered any more.

    if we're talking KT, the enterprise fired torpedoes several times at the narada to hasten its implosion into the singularity spock ramming the jellyfish into the ship caused

    The 'fire everything scene'? I only remember phaser cannons but I can always watch it again.
    jonsills wrote: »
    In TMP, warp drive involved a series of rainbow circles, the phenomenon referred to earlier as "summoning the Bifrost".

    It's a shame George Kirk died before he could see his son do that. He'd be so proud.​​
    22762792376_ac7c992b7c_o.png
    Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
    JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.

    #TASforSTO


    '...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
    'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
    'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
    '...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
    'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
    '...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek

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  • rattler2rattler2 Member Posts: 48,885 Arc User
    artan42 wrote: »
    The 'fire everything scene'? I only remember phaser cannons but I can always watch it again. ​​


    If this doesn't work... skip to about 305. The torpedos are a silvery color and come out the neck in the same place the torp launcher is on the Prime Refit.
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  • shadowfang240shadowfang240 Member Posts: 33,269 Arc User
    3:11 shows torpedoes firing alongside the phasers, and a few seconds later focuses on the torpedo launcher itself


    ​​
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  • artan42artan42 Member Posts: 10,273 Bug Hunter
    Thank you. Though I have to say they don't look particularly 'guided' or anything. Just going straight forward.​​
    22762792376_ac7c992b7c_o.png
    Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
    JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.

    #TASforSTO


    '...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
    'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
    'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
    '...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
    'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
    '...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek

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  • shadowfang240shadowfang240 Member Posts: 33,269 Arc User
    well, any depiction of guidance cannot be relied on when you're firing them at a ship being consumed by a BLACK HOLE​​
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    "It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch."

    How Game Devs SHOULD be interacted with:
    http://askagamedev.tumblr.com/post/157238832062/i-remember-your-52080-rule-and-it-was-an-awesome

    "Curiosity is bad! It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed...and more importantly, it makes you poor!"

    "Beware of dog. Or possibly, enhanced, psycho-addicted, cybernetically-enhanced nightstalker death-dealing dog from hell."
    Passion and Serenity are one.
    I gain power by understanding both.
    In the chaos of their battle, I bring order.
    I am a shadow, darkness born from light.
    The Force is united within me.

    Stand with Star Trek: The Animated Series content for STO! #TASforSTO
  • artan42artan42 Member Posts: 10,273 Bug Hunter
    well, any depiction of guidance cannot be relied on when you're firing them at a ship being consumed by a BLACK HOLE​​

    I realise that. However it was earlier stated that they had some form of guidance and if this is their only scene it should be evidently here.
    22762792376_ac7c992b7c_o.png
    Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
    JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.

    #TASforSTO


    '...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
    'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
    'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
    '...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
    'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
    '...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek

    Get the Forums Enhancement Extension!
  • valoreahvaloreah Member Posts: 10,270 Arc User
    starkaos wrote: »
    Star Trek 2009 is a sequel/continuation only as far as old Spock and the destruction of Romulus is concerned. It is a reboot since it has the same characters as TOS, but a completely different history.

    That's not a reboot, no matter how many times you say it.

    Dear Devs: I enjoyed the Legacy of Romulus expansion much more than the Delta Rising expansion. .
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    Anyone calling Valoreah a "Cryptic fanboy" must be new to the forum.

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  • rattler2rattler2 Member Posts: 48,885 Arc User
    As mentioned before, Battlestar Galactica got a true reboot. Star Trek still has everything that came before the 2009 movie. Reboots generally don't reference anything from the past at all. NuBSG doesn't reference anything from TOS BSG at all.
    66998372863950ee98cf7da9786e2ea9-db80k0m.png
    I can't take it anymore! Could everyone just chill out for two seconds before something CRAZY happens again?!
    The nut who actually ground out a Delta Pack, Temporal Pack, and Gamma Pack
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  • angrytargangrytarg Member Posts: 9,881 Arc User
    rattler2 wrote: »
    As mentioned before, Battlestar Galactica got a true reboot. Star Trek still has everything that came before the 2009 movie. Reboots generally don't reference anything from the past at all. NuBSG doesn't reference anything from TOS BSG at all.

    Didn't they have the original Galactica set with the wired phones and original Cylons at some point?​​
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  • ryan218ryan218 Member Posts: 34,481 Arc User
    angrytarg wrote: »
    rattler2 wrote: »
    As mentioned before, Battlestar Galactica got a true reboot. Star Trek still has everything that came before the 2009 movie. Reboots generally don't reference anything from the past at all. NuBSG doesn't reference anything from TOS BSG at all.

    Didn't they have the original Galactica set with the wired phones and original Cylons at some point?​​

    RDM's BSG referenced the original show in terms of tech (the OG Battlestar became the Artemis-Class Light Battlestar in BSG:Deadlock; the vipers became 1st Cylon War MkI Vipers; OG Cylons, Raiders, and Baseships became 1st Cylon War Cylons, Raiders, and Basestars, etc.), but the story from the original show wasn't canon to the new show.
  • azrael605azrael605 Member Posts: 10,584 Arc User
    edited July 8
    All this back and forth about ST09 has nothing to do with the scam thread subject. So back on topic, Puck Feters.
    There ain't no such thing as a free lunch.

    One man's theology is another man's belly laugh.

    You can have peace. Or you can have freedom. Don't ever count on having both at once.

    Don't ever become a pessimist... a pessimist is correct oftener than an optimist, but an optimist has more fun, and neither can stop the march of events.

    Robert Heinlein
  • steinbergsteinberg Member Posts: 86 Arc User
    I dislike the Axanar project from the way it was financed, and the way events have panned out,however it did produce 1 thing i like.
    The USS Ares ,which is the ship we will never get in STO.
  • captainwellscaptainwells Member Posts: 537 Arc User
    edited July 11
    artan42 wrote: »
    Axanar seems to be trying to mesh the Kelvin era with the TOS era instead of trying to ignore TOS, which hurts it's potential. Plus it's going to be completely incompatible with DSC which means it's just going to lose all impact.

    To each his own, I've tried to accept Discovery to the extent that "some" fans like the show, but to me it is a hot mess that needed to percolate far longer before launching. There has been a single aspect of the series that worked well for me and that was Anson Mount as Captain Pike and the TOS-inspired elements related to his portrayal. I knew that he would not be an ongoing part of the Discovery's voyage and apparently there was some abrasion with the actor himself on set, but still Pike made the show worthwhile. A condemnation of the mostly warped parts of a show that had a ton of money poured into it and then wasted it all in their genuinely out of left field style of lore mangling.

    The various showrunners did not have to follow everything by rote that had come before, but a lead character as a mutineer who caused a war, getting her ship destroyed and her commanding officer killed in the process and who was a previously undisclosed sibling of a major franchise character was too, too much to absorb. Adding insult to injury at the close of the season the Federation magically chose to forgive all of that?? Seriously WTF???

    However in all fairness I must credit Discovery for still causing me fits of raucous laughter over that!

    In fact CBS All Access is hardly alone in opting to spin something as a prequel that avoids actually using Captain Pike and his tenure aboard Enterprise as the basis of a series, given the earlier Enterprise show on Fox (or was it UPN)?

  • valoreahvaloreah Member Posts: 10,270 Arc User
    ...A condemnation of the mostly warped parts of a show that had a ton of money poured into it and then wasted it all in their genuinely out of left field style of lore mangling....

    What lore? We knew next to nothing about this era prior to Discovery. You can't "mangle" what doesn't exist.

    Dear Devs: I enjoyed the Legacy of Romulus expansion much more than the Delta Rising expansion. .
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  • captainwellscaptainwells Member Posts: 537 Arc User
    edited July 11
    valoreah wrote: »
    ...A condemnation of the mostly warped parts of a show that had a ton of money poured into it and then wasted it all in their genuinely out of left field style of lore mangling....

    What lore? We knew next to nothing about this era prior to Discovery. You can't "mangle" what doesn't exist.

    Wasn't trying to start any argument, only spinning my own opinion. You know, I did start out by saying that I've tried to find a way to like the show and acknowledged that others seem to, so all good.

    As far as the unknown aspects of that era, true but after Sybok from The Final Frontier did we really need another previously "undiscovered" Spock sibling? Or was that just lazily repetitive on their part? Seems more mangling of lore to me!

    And the ideals of the Federation being so easily set aside after mutiny-death-destruction on a massive scale in the wake of Burnham's actions was little more than .... dare we say it, sauce for the goose.

  • jonsillsjonsills Member Posts: 8,659 Arc User
    Okay, one more time for the cheap seats - Burnham did not cause the war. That would be T'Kuvma, the Klingon religious fanatic and leader of a doomsday cult, who was determined to start a war with whichever Federation ship showed up to investigate the communications relay he'd destroyed. Burnham just happened to be the lucky individual on the scene.

    What's more, context shows that had she been permitted to carry out her "Vulcan Hello" move, there likely wouldn't have been a war - without T'Kuvma to whip the Empire into a frenzy, calmer, more self-centered heads would have likely shown up, blustered for a while, and left. That's why Starfleet never charged her with starting a war, and why they excused her mutiny later, because if she'd succeeded it might well have saved a lot of lives. (Of course, had she succeeded it might also have precipitated an unfortunate change in Starfleet culture, and we might have wound up with something more like the KT than Prime, but that's another issue altogether.)
    Lorna-Wing-sig.png
  • valoreahvaloreah Member Posts: 10,270 Arc User
    Wasn't trying to start any argument, only spinning my own opinion. You know, I did start out by saying that I've tried to find a way to like the show and acknowledged that others seem to, so all good.

    As far as the unknown aspects of that era, true but after Sybok from The Final Frontier did we really need another previously "undiscovered" Spock sibling? Or was that just lazily repetitive on their part? Seems more mangling of lore to me!

    Ok to start, disagreeing is not "starting an argument".

    Next, having an opinion is perfectly fine. However, saying Discovery is "mangling the lore" is incorrect as there was no lore to mangle prior to the series. All we had were throwaway mentions on a episode here in there that gave fractions of bits and pieces of what happened - no details. Discovery is filling in those gaps. You may not like it and that's fine, but it isn't "mangling" anything because there was nothing to mangle to begin with.
    And the ideals of the Federation being so easily set aside after mutiny-death-destruction on a massive scale in the wake of Burnham's actions was little more than .... dare we say it, sauce for the goose.

    I won't go into how this is incorrect as @jonsills explained this so well in his reply. I'll just add that tossing aside ideals of the Federation is a staple of Star Trek storytelling. See "In the Pale Moonlight", "I, Borg", "The Drumhead", Star Trek VI: TUC et al. Furthermore - and if you actually watched the show you would know this - the crew did stick to their ideals and ended the Klingon war. The chose to not decimate Q'onos and everyone on it. They chose to work with an enemy intent on wiping them out to reach a tenuous arrangement for a cease fire. We all know why Lorca had his "win at any cost" attitude. In the end, those ideals which you seem to believe got tossed out the window are what resolved the entire season peacefully.




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  • rattler2rattler2 Member Posts: 48,885 Arc User
    valoreah wrote: »
    In the end, those ideals which you seem to believe got tossed out the window are what resolved the entire season peacefully.

    This. Very much this.
    66998372863950ee98cf7da9786e2ea9-db80k0m.png
    I can't take it anymore! Could everyone just chill out for two seconds before something CRAZY happens again?!
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  • valoreahvaloreah Member Posts: 10,270 Arc User
    I truly believe 99% of the Discovery complainers on here are just parroting what they saw in some stupid YouTube video posted by another moron. They've never actually watched the show - just want to be trendy and complain about something.
    Dear Devs: I enjoyed the Legacy of Romulus expansion much more than the Delta Rising expansion. .
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  • jonsillsjonsills Member Posts: 8,659 Arc User
    valoreah wrote: »
    Furthermore - and if you actually watched the show you would know this - the crew did stick to their ideals and ended the Klingon war. The chose to not decimate Q'onos and everyone on it. They chose to work with an enemy intent on wiping them out to reach a tenuous arrangement for a cease fire. We all know why Lorca had his "win at any cost" attitude. In the end, those ideals which you seem to believe got tossed out the window are what resolved the entire season peacefully.
    I wish I could find the clip from that episode on YouTube, just so I could post Burnham's lecture to Cornwell on the topic. (Then again, I also want a clip of Spock mocking Burnham and her tendency to make everything about her from season 2).
    Lorna-Wing-sig.png
  • starkaosstarkaos Member Posts: 10,949 Arc User
    valoreah wrote: »
    ...A condemnation of the mostly warped parts of a show that had a ton of money poured into it and then wasted it all in their genuinely out of left field style of lore mangling....

    What lore? We knew next to nothing about this era prior to Discovery. You can't "mangle" what doesn't exist.

    And the Season Finale made sure that the inhabitants of the Star Trek Universe knew next to nothing about anything in Discovery since everything about the Discovery and her crew has been classified. Unlike every other Star Trek series where most of their adventures become mandatory reading for Starfleet Academy. One of the problems with Discovery is that it is too focused on the Klingon War or the Seven Signals/Control that we don't experience what the 2250s Federation is like while DS9 and Voyager was great for knowing what the 2370s Federation and the Delta Quadrant was like.
    jonsills wrote: »
    Okay, one more time for the cheap seats - Burnham did not cause the war. That would be T'Kuvma, the Klingon religious fanatic and leader of a doomsday cult, who was determined to start a war with whichever Federation ship showed up to investigate the communications relay he'd destroyed. Burnham just happened to be the lucky individual on the scene.

    What's more, context shows that had she been permitted to carry out her "Vulcan Hello" move, there likely wouldn't have been a war - without T'Kuvma to whip the Empire into a frenzy, calmer, more self-centered heads would have likely shown up, blustered for a while, and left. That's why Starfleet never charged her with starting a war, and why they excused her mutiny later, because if she'd succeeded it might well have saved a lot of lives. (Of course, had she succeeded it might also have precipitated an unfortunate change in Starfleet culture, and we might have wound up with something more like the KT than Prime, but that's another issue altogether.)

    Burnham created hesitation with her actions which led to the war with the Klingons. Sacrificing the Shenzhou or carrying out the Vulcan Hello would have at least temporarily halted the war from getting started. T'Kuvma could have always found another reason for starting his war or someone else could have started the war, but they wouldn't have been able to use the excuse of hesitation.

This discussion has been closed.