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New US loot box bill

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  • jonsillsjonsills Member Posts: 10,354 Arc User
    nixboox wrote: »
    ...Cryptic only needs to make it so that keys for lockboxes are available from vendors in the game through EC to avoid the provisions of this law.
    They are. Typically, keys are available on the Exchange for around 4 million EC or so each. I've bought a few that way, and always gotten something for my investment. (Sadly, not the things I really wanted, but recently I've started to look more at what's in the Lobi Store than what the boxes purport to offer - and generally, I've been able to sell the items from the boxes on the Exchange, lessening the "loss".)
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  • starkaosstarkaos Member Posts: 11,556 Arc User
    jonsills wrote: »
    nixboox wrote: »
    ...Cryptic only needs to make it so that keys for lockboxes are available from vendors in the game through EC to avoid the provisions of this law.
    They are. Typically, keys are available on the Exchange for around 4 million EC or so each. I've bought a few that way, and always gotten something for my investment. (Sadly, not the things I really wanted, but recently I've started to look more at what's in the Lobi Store than what the boxes purport to offer - and generally, I've been able to sell the items from the boxes on the Exchange, lessening the "loss".)

    I believe they want Master Keys to be set at a fixed price at certain vendors rather than let the player economy determines its price. If Cryptic ever sells Master Keys at a vendor at a fixed price, then it will cost Dilithium instead of Energy Credits.
  • markhawkmanmarkhawkman Member Posts: 35,231 Arc User
    starkaos wrote: »
    jonsills wrote: »
    nixboox wrote: »
    ...Cryptic only needs to make it so that keys for lockboxes are available from vendors in the game through EC to avoid the provisions of this law.
    They are. Typically, keys are available on the Exchange for around 4 million EC or so each. I've bought a few that way, and always gotten something for my investment. (Sadly, not the things I really wanted, but recently I've started to look more at what's in the Lobi Store than what the boxes purport to offer - and generally, I've been able to sell the items from the boxes on the Exchange, lessening the "loss".)
    I believe they want Master Keys to be set at a fixed price at certain vendors rather than let the player economy determines its price. If Cryptic ever sells Master Keys at a vendor at a fixed price, then it will cost Dilithium instead of Energy Credits.
    If I was to add keys to a vendor for EC, I'd look at the exchange listing price and make it something like double that. Technically you don't need zen to buy them, but zen is the cheap way.
    -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
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  • mustrumridcully0mustrumridcully0 Member Posts: 12,963 Arc User
    leemwatson wrote: »
    westx211 wrote: »
    Most people here defending lootboxes are ignoring the wording of the bill. Lootboxes of any kind are likely to get banned by it whether they be overwatch's, fifa's, or STO's. Its pretty all encompassing. If it passes we would like see games either be forced to remove them entirely, or be forced to take an Adults only rating which most companies will not want. And The Governments DO NOT CARE if you "always get something" from a lootbox. Your items have no "value" in the first place so it doesn't matter if you get different colored pixels than what you wanted the games still make money off of you using the same psycologically manipulative methods that casinos use.

    Actually I've not ignored the wording of the bill. It even states what type of lootboxes and the exclusions. It does not state 'all lootboxes, no matter what they contain' anywhere. It can be argued quite readily that STO's lootboxes are not going to be included in the ban, IF it passes.

    Could you provide a link to the wording of the bill, for reference? Having the actual text would probably be helpful for such a discussion.
    Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
  • baddmoonrizinbaddmoonrizin Member Posts: 10,247 Community Moderator
    westx211 wrote: »
    Oh, look! This old chestnut again.

    Maybe if you're a good boy, and wish really, really hard, your dream of banning the big, bad, evil lootbox will come true. :mrgreen:

    Moved to Ten Forward, because this isn't about the game, it's about legislation. /Moved

    That's fair since I think the thread really should have been in off topic from the start but also you shouldn't be snarky about this or really anything. Its kind of a bad look.

    Snarky is part of my charm. LOL :smirk:
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  • baddmoonrizinbaddmoonrizin Member Posts: 10,247 Community Moderator
    edited May 2019
    leemwatson wrote: »
    westx211 wrote: »
    Most people here defending lootboxes are ignoring the wording of the bill. Lootboxes of any kind are likely to get banned by it whether they be overwatch's, fifa's, or STO's. Its pretty all encompassing. If it passes we would like see games either be forced to remove them entirely, or be forced to take an Adults only rating which most companies will not want. And The Governments DO NOT CARE if you "always get something" from a lootbox. Your items have no "value" in the first place so it doesn't matter if you get different colored pixels than what you wanted the games still make money off of you using the same psycologically manipulative methods that casinos use.

    Actually I've not ignored the wording of the bill. It even states what type of lootboxes and the exclusions. It does not state 'all lootboxes, no matter what they contain' anywhere. It can be argued quite readily that STO's lootboxes are not going to be included in the ban, IF it passes.

    Could you provide a link to the wording of the bill, for reference? Having the actual text would probably be helpful for such a discussion.

    I don't see where any of this applies to STO.

    https://www.hawley.senate.gov/sites/default/files/2019-05/Loot-Box-Bill-Text.pdf
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  • jonsillsjonsills Member Posts: 10,354 Arc User
    Thanks for that link. Under the definitions provided in the text of the bill, nothing produced by Cryptic is in any danger, as they fail the test of "minor-oriented game" (Section 2(5)), "pay-to-win" (Section 2(7)(b)(II), which specifically excludes cosmetic alterations), and "loot box" (as defined in Section 8; the "loot boxes" in STO do not offer anything that gives the player a competitive advantage, nor do they provide an in-game currency that itself unlock another random item - rather, the Lobi provided is spent only in the Lobi Store, where you know exactly what you're purchasing).
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  • baddmoonrizinbaddmoonrizin Member Posts: 10,247 Community Moderator
    jonsills wrote: »
    Thanks for that link. Under the definitions provided in the text of the bill, nothing produced by Cryptic is in any danger, as they fail the test of "minor-oriented game" (Section 2(5)), "pay-to-win" (Section 2(7)(b)(II), which specifically excludes cosmetic alterations), and "loot box" (as defined in Section 8; the "loot boxes" in STO do not offer anything that gives the player a competitive advantage, nor do they provide an in-game currency that itself unlock another random item - rather, the Lobi provided is spent only in the Lobi Store, where you know exactly what you're purchasing).

    Exactly, but you'll still have some try-hards here attempt some linguistic gymnastics to make the definitions fit. "From the perspective of a reasonable user" is mentioned repeatedly, and anyone who uses the term "gamble box" is not being reasonable. Also, gambling, and equating loot boxes to gambling isn't mentioned anywhere in the bill either.
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  • theraven2378theraven2378 Member Posts: 5,985 Arc User
    I'm not that worried about STO, I can see why the bill is being presented.
    Recently Belgium passed a ban on lootboxes and to see companies like EA and Activision finally being called out on their predatory business practice as a very good thing.

    The AAA games industry does need regulation since they cannot or do not regulate themselves and let greed take over
    NMXb2ph.png
      "The meaning of victory is not to merely defeat your enemy but to destroy him, to completely eradicate him from living memory, to leave no remnant of his endeavours, to crush utterly his achievement and remove from all record his every trace of existence. From that defeat no enemy can ever recover. That is the meaning of victory."
      -Lord Commander Solar Macharius
    • markhawkmanmarkhawkman Member Posts: 35,231 Arc User
      I'm not that worried about STO, I can see why the bill is being presented.
      Recently Belgium passed a ban on lootboxes and to see companies like EA and Activision finally being called out on their predatory business practice as a very good thing.

      The AAA games industry does need regulation since they cannot or do not regulate themselves and let greed take over
      It's not really a AAA thing though. The most infamous case was from a publisher whose name no one remembers because it was a free to play mobile game.
      -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
      My character Tsin'xing
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    • theraven2378theraven2378 Member Posts: 5,985 Arc User
      Cryptic have nothing to worry about, there's ways and means of getting keys without spending real money,
      It's when big AAA developers charge full price for an incomplete game where a lot of it is paywalled off what annoys me, add in unregulated predatory business practices and you have fuel for a fire
      NMXb2ph.png
        "The meaning of victory is not to merely defeat your enemy but to destroy him, to completely eradicate him from living memory, to leave no remnant of his endeavours, to crush utterly his achievement and remove from all record his every trace of existence. From that defeat no enemy can ever recover. That is the meaning of victory."
        -Lord Commander Solar Macharius
      • rattler2rattler2 Member Posts: 57,973 Community Moderator
        EA certainly contributed to the fiasco with how Battlefront 2 basically REQUIRED you to spend money to stay competative. Oh you COULD grind it out though... after about a whole year of LIVING in the game. By then what you're grinding for is probably outdated and no longer competative, thus forcing you to do it again or break down and give EA money.
        db80k0m-89201ed8-eadb-45d3-830f-bb2f0d4c0fe7.png?token=eyJ0eXAiOiJKV1QiLCJhbGciOiJIUzI1NiJ9.eyJzdWIiOiJ1cm46YXBwOjdlMGQxODg5ODIyNjQzNzNhNWYwZDQxNWVhMGQyNmUwIiwiaXNzIjoidXJuOmFwcDo3ZTBkMTg4OTgyMjY0MzczYTVmMGQ0MTVlYTBkMjZlMCIsIm9iaiI6W1t7InBhdGgiOiJcL2ZcL2ExOGQ4ZWM2LTUyZjQtNDdiMS05YTI1LTVlYmZkYmJkOGM3N1wvZGI4MGswbS04OTIwMWVkOC1lYWRiLTQ1ZDMtODMwZi1iYjJmMGQ0YzBmZTcucG5nIn1dXSwiYXVkIjpbInVybjpzZXJ2aWNlOmZpbGUuZG93bmxvYWQiXX0.8G-Pg35Qi8qxiKLjAofaKRH6fmNH3qAAEI628gW0eXc
        I can't take it anymore! Could everyone just chill out for two seconds before something CRAZY happens again?!
        The nut who actually ground out many packs. The resident forum voice of reason (I HAZ FORUM REP! YAY!)
      • theraven2378theraven2378 Member Posts: 5,985 Arc User
        It was bound to catch up with them at some point
        NMXb2ph.png
          "The meaning of victory is not to merely defeat your enemy but to destroy him, to completely eradicate him from living memory, to leave no remnant of his endeavours, to crush utterly his achievement and remove from all record his every trace of existence. From that defeat no enemy can ever recover. That is the meaning of victory."
          -Lord Commander Solar Macharius
        • theraven2378theraven2378 Member Posts: 5,985 Arc User
          valoreah wrote: »
          I'm not that worried about STO, I can see why the bill is being presented.
          Recently Belgium passed a ban on lootboxes and to see companies like EA and Activision finally being called out on their predatory business practice as a very good thing.

          The AAA games industry does need regulation since they cannot or do not regulate themselves and let greed take over

          Why is a company wanted to make money "greedy"? Wouldn't you want to make more, not less?

          It's the predatory business practices I have issue with
          NMXb2ph.png
            "The meaning of victory is not to merely defeat your enemy but to destroy him, to completely eradicate him from living memory, to leave no remnant of his endeavours, to crush utterly his achievement and remove from all record his every trace of existence. From that defeat no enemy can ever recover. That is the meaning of victory."
            -Lord Commander Solar Macharius
          • theraven2378theraven2378 Member Posts: 5,985 Arc User
            It was inevitable that a backlash like this was going to happen
            NMXb2ph.png
              "The meaning of victory is not to merely defeat your enemy but to destroy him, to completely eradicate him from living memory, to leave no remnant of his endeavours, to crush utterly his achievement and remove from all record his every trace of existence. From that defeat no enemy can ever recover. That is the meaning of victory."
              -Lord Commander Solar Macharius
            • westx211westx211 Member Posts: 42,206 Arc User
              valoreah wrote: »
              It's the predatory business practices I have issue with

              Well, sure. That isn't the same thing as being greedy.

              They can be greedy. After all Predatory business practices designed to manipulate your mind and psycology in ways that ensure the absolute maximum profits regardless of how those practices affect the consumer is pretty greedy. You can make tons of money without manipulating and affecting the customer negatively outside of taking their money. Now not all corporations are greedy, that's very true, there aren't too many corporations that actually act in such ways, though its common in Pharmaceuticals and in some of the Bigger Gaming companies.
              Men are not punished for their sins, but by them.
            • jonsillsjonsills Member Posts: 10,354 Arc User
              Most major corporations aren't greedy?

              Thanks, I needed a good laugh today.
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            • westx211westx211 Member Posts: 42,206 Arc User
              valoreah wrote: »
              jonsills wrote: »
              Most major corporations aren't greedy?

              Thanks, I needed a good laugh today.

              Again, why is wanting to maximize profit a bad thing? Yes, we can all agree if they are doing something predatory or illegal that is bad.

              Individual people are very greedy too. We all are. Who on here can claim they don't try to make as much money as possible for themselves?

              Me. I could certainly try to make significantly more than I make currently, but while money facilitates what I am able to enjoy, I do not enjoy, money. I mean, I know a lot of people do, but I can't be bothered to try harder for more money, I'd rather take what I can get, since I don't need much to be happy.
              Men are not punished for their sins, but by them.
            • jonsillsjonsills Member Posts: 10,354 Arc User
              A corporation is not a person. Its basic reason for existence is to maximize shareholder value - and to the shareholders, that usually means "make as much money for me as possible". Of course corporations are "greedy", they're designed to be greedy. Individual CEOs might be really nice and philanthropic guys - but never count on a major corporation to do anything that doesn't, in the long run, look good on the ledgers. (And for a lot of corps, "long run" means the next fiscal quarter, so...)

              This isn't a "bad thing", any more than a rattlesnake's venom is a "bad thing". It's just the nature of the beast, and failure to take it into account is foolish.
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            • evilmark444evilmark444 Member Posts: 6,950 Arc User
              edited June 2019
              jonsills wrote: »
              "loot box" (as defined in Section 8; the "loot boxes" in STO do not offer anything that gives the player a competitive advantage

              If ships were purely cosmetic you would have a point, but they are not. They have unique stats and BOff layouts, as well as their own traits and consoles that cannot be obtained elsewhere.
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            • westx211westx211 Member Posts: 42,206 Arc User
              azrael605 wrote: »
              > @evilmark444 said:
              > jonsills wrote: »
              >
              > "loot box" (as defined in Section 8; the "loot boxes" in STO do not offer anything that gives the player a competitive advantage
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > If ships were purely cosmetic you would have a point, but they are not. They have unique stats and BOff layouts, as well as their own traits and consoles that cannot be obtained elsewhere.

              None of which is better than what is offered in the store and none of which is needed or required to play the game.

              Nah, plenty is better than what is offered in the store. In fact, I'd say around 60% or slightly higher are by far superior to whats in the store. After all, there's a reason the Vaadwaur Juggernaut is the best ship in the game and the reason players have been able to hit 1million dps.
              Men are not punished for their sins, but by them.
            • rattler2rattler2 Member Posts: 57,973 Community Moderator
              Agreed. The Black Alert trait may not be available outside of getting the Crossfield, but its not that impressive of a trait. Yea you get that little extra torp spread from a dupe you spawn based on your actions, but its probably comparable to a torp spread from a hanger pet. IE not impressive on its own.

              I'd probably get more damage out of a full wing of Elite Xindi-Primate Heavy Fighters firing their torp spreads than I would from Black Alert, and I don't have to sac a Trait Slot to do it.
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              I can't take it anymore! Could everyone just chill out for two seconds before something CRAZY happens again?!
              The nut who actually ground out many packs. The resident forum voice of reason (I HAZ FORUM REP! YAY!)
            • evilmark444evilmark444 Member Posts: 6,950 Arc User
              azrael605 wrote: »
              > evilmark444 said:
              > jonsills wrote: »
              >
              > "loot box" (as defined in Section 8; the "loot boxes" in STO do not offer anything that gives the player a competitive advantage
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > If ships were purely cosmetic you would have a point, but they are not. They have unique stats and BOff layouts, as well as their own traits and consoles that cannot be obtained elsewhere.

              None of which is better than what is offered in the store and none of which is needed or required to play the game.

              Idk what balance looks like currently, but there have been PLENTY of times when things from lock boxes were better than what was otherwise available. At one time the JHAS was one of the best ships in the game, lock box BOff abilities like kemocite weaponry have at times been superior to most other abilities particularly in the ensign slot, and as far as I know there still aren't any c-store ships with two different spec seats. Those are just the examples I can think of right now, I'm sure someone with a more up-to-date understanding of the current meta could name several more.
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