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Borticus wants to reduce EC inflation.

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  • pottsey5gpottsey5g Member Posts: 4,165 Arc User
    What about a random shop. You buy an item and get it at a random version with a small chance of gold. Some people would spend lots of EC trying to buy that tactical consoles so they didn't have to upgrade it.
  • arabaturarabatur Member Posts: 407 Arc User
    pottsey5g wrote: »
    What about a random shop. You buy an item and get it at a random version with a small chance of gold. Some people would spend lots of EC trying to buy that tactical consoles so they didn't have to upgrade it.

    This sounds an awful lot like the loot boxes already in game, just repackaged and without a zen cost. Still a gamble in any case.
    Definitely not an Arc User.
  • postagepaidpostagepaid Member Posts: 2,899 Arc User
    Gamble boxes are usually slightly more palatable to folk when the currency being wasted in earned in game. But it would mean doubling down on the gamble box strategy and lead to accusations of using the ec ones as a lure for the cash ones.

    After removal of small sinks such as the transwarp fee and addition of easy to obtain ec via the endeavour box drops the request for brainstorming on what sinks the game should have does come across as stranger and stranger the more you ponder on it.

    In theory the barn door getting closed after the horse has bolted doesn't come as a result of you shooing the animal away.

    Anyone else expecting a request for help to solve the flood of worthless R&D mats?
  • foxrockssocksfoxrockssocks Member Posts: 2,482 Arc User
    There is no inflation in this game. There is no inelastic demand for goods. The only prices that change are prices on the exchange, and those prices are set by the law of supply and demand. Yeah ships are expensive. They are ridiculously rare and always in high demand.

    Keys were 2.x million EC back in ... 2014? ... now they're 4.x. I claim that what the market will bear has increased mainly because the supply of EC has increased.

    I've gotten 600,000 EC from one endeavor box. I often get 100,00 EC from one day of admiralty. I get 2,000,000 EC (one time) from claiming a per-character gamma reward box. You're wrong if you think the generation of EC per day per endgame character played has not increased.
    I'm sure something will be done, though, so what I will suggest is NO LISTING FEES. I swear to god-who-needs-a-starship, do not do this. I still remember when Champions Online did it, and I bring it up every time one of these discussions happens. It will destroy the exchange.

    Which is why I argue for a low fee like 1% that is collected only after an item sells. 0 EC up front, 1% on sale.


    Yes keys were cheaper at one time. Lockboxes were also far less valuable too, before T6 ships and ship traits and all the other more interesting things that come out of them now that didn't back then. Remember how much the T5 Jemhadar bugship was priced at back then? Who would pay that now for a t5 ship?

    As to EC generation, while it may seem like it has increased on the surface, it may be less overall as endeavors may send you off to do time consuming tasks that don't actually offer the EC rewards other tasks do, like when you get low level trash items on Nimbus, or have to do multiple STFs with very low droprates (and even then you may not come home winning any rolls for loot.) There is also a large chance you get non-EC rewards as well like crafting materials and marks. You're not getting 600k every time you finish your daily endeavors.

    A one time reward box is also a one time thing and really doesn't change much. Admiralty on the other hand, is an opportunity cost thing. For how long it takes you to do that, you could have cleared Argala once, maybe twice and gotten more than 100k. This, actually, is likely a deliberate part of why Admiralty gives EC rewards, because while you're playing ship bingo, you're not doing anything else.

    But again, I don't much care what they do, as long as they don't hurt the space poor or cripple the space market. A selling tax with no list fee is perfectly fine, but what desired effect do you expect to see from it or any proposal? It won't really change anything in the end.
  • postagepaidpostagepaid Member Posts: 2,899 Arc User
    Across both accounts (LTS &F2P) for saturday and sundays endeavouring I got 1 marks box 3 green R&D and the rest was ec.

    This is not an uncommon occurrence and its been close to a month since I last saw the xp bump or either one. I've said this elsewhere but the droprates for these reward boxes really need looked at to reduce the volume of trash being called a reward. A system that reduces the chance of ec or r&d junk for the each roll that barfs it out might be a start.

    There's an idea for a sink right there, pay ec for reroll tokens.
  • peterconnorfirstpeterconnorfirst Member Posts: 6,225 Arc User
    edited May 2019
    Since phoenix boxes keep on being such a success they could integrate an EC sink there. Why does the trade-in of a higher ranking token into two lower ranking ones have to be for free?

    Or perhaps find a reasonable “high” amount of EC that makes it possible to do it the other way around?

    50k for a green, 500k for a blue, 5M for a purple, 50M for an ultra and 500M for an epic or whatever Bort feels like it's worth.
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  • warpangelwarpangel Member Posts: 9,427 Arc User
    There is no inflation in this game. There is no inelastic demand for goods. The only prices that change are prices on the exchange, and those prices are set by the law of supply and demand. Yeah ships are expensive. They are ridiculously rare and always in high demand.

    Keys were 2.x million EC back in ... 2014? ... now they're 4.x. I claim that what the market will bear has increased mainly because the supply of EC has increased.

    I've gotten 600,000 EC from one endeavor box. I often get 100,00 EC from one day of admiralty. I get 2,000,000 EC (one time) from claiming a per-character gamma reward box. You're wrong if you think the generation of EC per day per endgame character played has not increased.
    I'm sure something will be done, though, so what I will suggest is NO LISTING FEES. I swear to god-who-needs-a-starship, do not do this. I still remember when Champions Online did it, and I bring it up every time one of these discussions happens. It will destroy the exchange.

    Which is why I argue for a low fee like 1% that is collected only after an item sells. 0 EC up front, 1% on sale.


    Yes keys were cheaper at one time. Lockboxes were also far less valuable too, before T6 ships and ship traits and all the other more interesting things that come out of them now that didn't back then. Remember how much the T5 Jemhadar bugship was priced at back then? Who would pay that now for a t5 ship?
    T5 bugships aren't traded much anymore, since they're in the phoenix box and the leftover tradeable copes are so rare it's actually easier to burn dil to get one. If you did want to buy one, you'd probably have to pay more than for the T6 versions. Some of the removed T5 lockbox/lobi ships are similarly more expensive than their T6 counterparts due to rarity.
  • captainwellscaptainwells Member Posts: 718 Arc User
    "Caped?"
  • ayexeyenayexeyen Member Posts: 229 Arc User
    What about some booster for ground missions based on EC? Like the antiproton carrier wave, or the Risian food but based on EC instead of Dilithium or Lohlunat.
  • captainwellscaptainwells Member Posts: 718 Arc User
    "Monty Haul?"
  • ayexeyenayexeyen Member Posts: 229 Arc User
    trennan wrote: »
    Just charge 10mil EC in space and ground maps for loadout swapping/respecing

    Then you could sit back and watch people go broke.

    No, but 1Million for a respec would be very interesting. I have plenty of respec token and I am not using it because I don't want to waste them, but charging 1 Million for a respect would be a good price and an interesting thing for people.
    It would create a good sink and a way for people to experiment with different build.
  • markhawkmanmarkhawkman Member Posts: 35,231 Arc User
    reyan01 wrote: »
    Make an upgrade akin to the Phoenix upgrade and sell that for EC. The craftable upgrades are useless, costing large amounts of Dil with little to show for it, the 'ultimate' upgrades in the key-ring bundle are expensive, and the phoenix upgrades entirely depend on the unpredictability element of a phoenix event.
    Maybe just make superior upgrade packs you can buy with EC?
    -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
    My character Tsin'xing
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  • rattler2rattler2 Member Posts: 57,973 Community Moderator
    valoreah wrote: »
    Why not start a philanthropic organization to help the underprivileged children of Bajor?

    And the countdown to anti-Bajor ranting from Cardassian fans begins. *looks at watch*
    Never did understand that.

    Anyways...
    Since phoenix boxes keep on being such a success they could integrate an EC sink there. Why does the trade-in of a higher ranking token into two lower ranking ones have to be for free?

    Or perhaps find a reasonable “high” amount of EC that makes it possible to do it the other way around?

    50k for a green, 500k for a blue, 5M for a purple, 50M for an ultra and 500M for an epic or whatever Bort feels like it's worth.

    Seems rather steep and only caters to the super space rich on the high end. Also probably not viable because some of the super space rich would have no need for epic tokens, so ultimately that wouldn't really help much...
    db80k0m-89201ed8-eadb-45d3-830f-bb2f0d4c0fe7.png?token=eyJ0eXAiOiJKV1QiLCJhbGciOiJIUzI1NiJ9.eyJzdWIiOiJ1cm46YXBwOjdlMGQxODg5ODIyNjQzNzNhNWYwZDQxNWVhMGQyNmUwIiwiaXNzIjoidXJuOmFwcDo3ZTBkMTg4OTgyMjY0MzczYTVmMGQ0MTVlYTBkMjZlMCIsIm9iaiI6W1t7InBhdGgiOiJcL2ZcL2ExOGQ4ZWM2LTUyZjQtNDdiMS05YTI1LTVlYmZkYmJkOGM3N1wvZGI4MGswbS04OTIwMWVkOC1lYWRiLTQ1ZDMtODMwZi1iYjJmMGQ0YzBmZTcucG5nIn1dXSwiYXVkIjpbInVybjpzZXJ2aWNlOmZpbGUuZG93bmxvYWQiXX0.8G-Pg35Qi8qxiKLjAofaKRH6fmNH3qAAEI628gW0eXc
    I can't take it anymore! Could everyone just chill out for two seconds before something CRAZY happens again?!
    The nut who actually ground out many packs. The resident forum voice of reason (I HAZ FORUM REP! YAY!)
  • boldlygoing3boldlygoing3 Member Posts: 7 Arc User
    Having only a layman's understanding of inflation, largely from the indexes for goods and services used to track it in the UK, I decided to look up the definition of 'currency inflation' since it appeared to be a separate but related issue, and found this:

    Currency Inflation - a situation in which more money becomes available without an increase in production and services, causing prices to rise: the market can experience price inflation without currency inflation, but the market cannot experience currency inflation without price inflation

    Looking at the in-game situation at least in respect of 'desirable' items to spend EC on, it seems that Borticus statement on EC inflation is correct and both parts of the above statement do hold true: over time additional sources of EC have appeared, whereas the supply of desirable items has remained mostly flat due to the low drop rates for the lockbox items, that represent the most sought after items, combined with a fairly small pool of players compared to the overall population who are both willing and able to participate in the gambling process to generate them.

    So I agree with most people here, either the supply of those lockbox items has to increase, or as has been proposed you need an additional pool of items or services that are at least as desirable and attractive to players to absorb that additional EC. I've seen several interesting suggestions so far, but whatever the approach chosen, I can't see it being successful unless it acknowledges and addresses the above.
  • echattyechatty Member Posts: 5,913 Arc User
    Yesterday over the three endeavors I got 1m ECs, along with some mark/RnD stuffs.
    Now a LTS and loving it.
    Just because you spend money on this game, it does not entitle you to be a jerk if things don't go your way.
    I have come to the conclusion that I have a memory like Etch-A-Sketch. I shake my head and forget everything. :D
  • pottsey5gpottsey5g Member Posts: 4,165 Arc User
    edited May 2019
    Having only a layman's understanding of inflation, largely from the indexes for goods and services used to track it in the UK, I decided to look up the definition of 'currency inflation' since it appeared to be a separate but related issue, and found this:

    Currency Inflation - a situation in which more money becomes available without an increase in production and services, causing prices to rise: the market can experience price inflation without currency inflation, but the market cannot experience currency inflation without price inflation

    Looking at the in-game situation at least in respect of 'desirable' items to spend EC on, it seems that Borticus statement on EC inflation is correct and both parts of the above statement do hold true: over time additional sources of EC have appeared, whereas the supply of desirable items has remained mostly flat due to the low drop rates for the lockbox items, that represent the most sought after items, combined with a fairly small pool of players compared to the overall population who are both willing and able to participate in the gambling process to generate them.

    So I agree with most people here, either the supply of those lockbox items has to increase, or as has been proposed you need an additional pool of items or services that are at least as desirable and attractive to players to absorb that additional EC. I've seen several interesting suggestions so far, but whatever the approach chosen, I can't see it being successful unless it acknowledges and addresses the above.
    I am not following that statement as we have no price inflation if anything we have price deflection. According to that statement as we have no price inflation then there is no currency inflation because you cannot have currency inflation when the price is the same or going down which is what we have been having the past few years.

    As we have static or price deflation then increasing drops rates will only further increase the price deflation.

    Lockbox items have zero impact on currency in that all you are doing is moving currency between players, not removing it from the game. Increasing lockbox items wont change the amount of currency in game.
  • dukedom01dukedom01 Member Posts: 462 Arc User
    2% service tax on every item sold via the exchange. *drops mic*
    Ceterum censeo Otha supplendum in praemiis.
  • pwstolemynamepwstolemyname Member Posts: 1,417 Arc User
    edited May 2019
    Just a thought. For a long time I, and many others, have desired the capability to grind up less aesthetically pleasing bridge officers into DNA paste and force feed them to the pretty ones. Thus transferring their Space traits.

    How about a system which creates a bridge officer specific genetic resequencer by randomly selecting a trait from a consumed officer and turning it into a consumable. Then replaces a random trait on a target officer.

    The in lore reason that the doner officers becomes unusable could be that they are on forced leave to recover from an experimental medical treatment.

    Have the process cost a large amount of EC. That's our sink. Then this could also be used to promote the flow of EC with an additional system. Add a bridge officer requisition project that can be performed once per day per account by characters level 50 and up. Have that project reward boffs with some new or existing desirable space traits.

    Players won't be able to get their perfect bridge crew without rolling the dice a lot of times, and it will take them a long time if they rely only on their own daily requisition. Even longer if they have alts. So those with the EC to do so may chose to buy bridge officers from newer or less established players. Those with the inclination to spend real world money will also have a reason to dump more lockbox and lobi stuff on the exchange in order get the EC to buy bridge officers.

    So with this system we could both reduce EC inflation, and increase the supply of lockbox content.

    The only downside I can think of is power creep... but honestly that horse is long gone already, no point in worrying about returning it to the stable now.
  • magellan14magellan14 Member Posts: 10 Arc User
    edited May 2019
    As a F2P, other than surfing the exchange for good deals, I use EC almost exclusively for one thing, purchasing contraband to turn in for dilithium. Would it make sense to have a similar idea to turn in EC direct? Have a bauble/trinket or thingy sold for EC by a vendor and account bound, turn in said item(s) for dilithium, and/or have the trinket/bauble as a requirement for some/all DOFF missions. The mechanisms for some of this are already in place and the games economy could be controlled by the current dil sinks.
  • ltminnsltminns Member Posts: 12,569 Arc User
    'We can reengineer them. We have the technology. We have the capability to build the Galaxy's first resequenced individual. Better than they were before. Better, stronger, faster.' :)
    'But to be logical is not to be right', and 'nothing' on God's earth could ever 'make it' right!'
    Judge Dan Haywood
    'As l speak now, the words are forming in my head.
    l don't know.
    l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
    That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
    Lt. Philip J. Minns
  • feliseanfelisean Member Posts: 688 Arc User
    dukedom01 wrote: »
    2% service tax on every item sold via the exchange. *drops mic*

    to be fair, thats an actualy good method to drain some ec. because the only reason where its really important are trades between players so that would be the way to go
  • markhawkmanmarkhawkman Member Posts: 35,231 Arc User
    felisean wrote: »
    dukedom01 wrote: »
    2% service tax on every item sold via the exchange. *drops mic*
    to be fair, thats an actualy good method to drain some ec. because the only reason where its really important are trades between players so that would be the way to go
    Yeah Neverwinter's exchange already does this. IE you list an item for 1000, the buyer pays 1000, and you get... most of that 1000.
    -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
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  • ltminnsltminns Member Posts: 12,569 Arc User
    Lord of the Rings Online Auction House charges a posting fee, small and dependant on time to be up. Then the Auction House takes a percentage of the sale price.
    'But to be logical is not to be right', and 'nothing' on God's earth could ever 'make it' right!'
    Judge Dan Haywood
    'As l speak now, the words are forming in my head.
    l don't know.
    l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
    That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
    Lt. Philip J. Minns
  • iamjmphiamjmph Member Posts: 210 Arc User
    Glad this isnt LotRO then. Posting fees=bad idea. The tax on sale is fine, but posting fees hurt those without a lot of ec while merely being a slight inconvenience for the ones Bort seems to be trying to drain EC from. Lets stop suggesting a posting fee people, that way lays badness.
  • peterconnorfirstpeterconnorfirst Member Posts: 6,225 Arc User
    iamjmph wrote: »
    Glad this isnt LotRO then. Posting fees=bad idea. The tax on sale is fine, but posting fees hurt those without a lot of ec while merely being a slight inconvenience for the ones Bort seems to be trying to drain EC from. Lets stop suggesting a posting fee people, that way lays badness.

    It was suggested as a tax for sold items.

    It is also why it was recommended as a percentage. 2 or whatever % of a 1.5B ec deal is more than of a 50k deal. As consequence rich players sink more than poor ones do.

    Also new or casual players that don’t play the exchange much don’t get targeted at all.

    Think the idea is best we had so far.
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    felisean wrote: »
    teamwork to reach a goal is awesome and highly appreciated
  • seaofsorrowsseaofsorrows Member Posts: 10,918 Arc User
    edited May 2019
    iamjmph wrote: »
    Glad this isnt LotRO then. Posting fees=bad idea. The tax on sale is fine, but posting fees hurt those without a lot of ec while merely being a slight inconvenience for the ones Bort seems to be trying to drain EC from. Lets stop suggesting a posting fee people, that way lays badness.

    It was suggested as a tax for sold items.

    It is also why it was recommended as a percentage. 2 or whatever % of a 1.5B ec deal is more than of a 50k deal. As consequence rich players sink more than poor ones do.

    Also new or casual players that don’t play the exchange much don’t get targeted at all.

    Think the idea is best we had so far.

    I know it's a rare thing.. but I disagree with you. :smile:

    I do like the idea of finding an in game sink for EC, something similar to Phoenix Kits that people would sink funds into.. I don't like the idea of an exchange tax.

    Honestly, I don't think it will help. I think what will happen is that people with big ticket items will just go to trade channels instead of using the exchange and that creates a whole other mess of potential problems with scamming players. I like the Exchange because it's simple, and you run no risk of getting scammed unless of course you just decide to pay way more then something is worth which is on you.

    I really don't see the Exchange tax working since players can just arrange private trades. Why would I list my 1.5 Billion EC ship on the exchange and pay tens of millions in fees when I can just sell it to you directly in a trade channel and get my entire 1.5 Billion that frankly.. I deserve?

    The seller is the one that cranked open all those boxes, they deserve the return on investment.

    But to be clear, I don't really believe the market is nearly as inflated as some do. I actually think things are fine the way they are, so take my opinion with a grain of salt. :wink:
    Insert witty signature line here.
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