I don't see how any of that would be considered a treaty violation with the Sheliak. Seems they were happy to sit out all the conflicts, including the Tzenkethi one where Protomatter was being thrown around. The Borg have been defanged for all intents and purposes. If anything, the Iconians would have shown more concern over the Sheliak if they were that big of a threat. As it stands... the Iconians just didn't care.
Short version: The Sheliak just don't care as long as their territory isn't violated. They're more isolationist than the Tholians.
Discovery IS outside the timeline of the rest of canon - that's not a question - it is a fact. It happens BETWEEN Enterprise and TOS.
Which means it is part of the same timeline as the rest of the canon, and thus, not outside of it.
If its happening in a time where no other canon has happened then its outside of canon. You're talking about it being part of the Prime Universe which we're still in debate about too.
STO is OUTSIDE of canon then as we've had no series past 2409 (And hell, even the Picard series will be 10 years prior to STO.)
Then there's the fact NOTHING in this game is canon anyway because it's a game. So, what's teh big deal with 'canon' in STO to begin with?
Formerly known as Armsman from June 2008 to June 20, 2012 PWE ARC Drone says: "Your STO forum community as you have known it is ended...Display names are irrelevant...Any further sense of community is irrelevant...Resistance is futile...You will be assimilated..."
Who's to say the treaty with the Sheliak wasn't of limited duration? Maybe 100 years at which time it was to be renegotiated at such and such place and such and such time.
The Sheliak could have taken a number of new worlds in that time moving closer to federation space...the Sheliak could demand new concessions.
Or they come into contact with expanding Klingon interests...can you see the Klingons negotiating with the Sheliak? Ouch.
If its happening in a time where no other canon has happened then its outside of canon. You're talking about it being part of the Prime Universe which we're still in debate about too.
Well
A. Canon =/= timeline. A timeline is the timeframe all work in a series covers. The Star Trek timeline goes all the way back to WW3 and the Eugenics Wars, and goes all the way up to the Hobus supernova. anything in that period of time is part of trek's timeline. Canon is all works in a series considered official. All of the Trek books are non-canon, but they happen in the same timeline as the shows. Same with STO, it isn't canon, but its in the Prime timeline.
B. There is no debate about Discovery being in the Prime Universe, CBS has confirmed it. There is no discussion beyond conspiracy theorists trying to make it not.
CBS has confirmed that TRIBBLE was in the Prime timeline. The problem is that the Prime timeline is not the original universe. The Prime timeline is related to the JJ verse not TOS, TNG, DS9, VOYAGER, ENTERPRISE and the first 10 movies. Therefore TRIBBLE is canon but has nothing to do with the original timeline.
CBS has confirmed that TRIBBLE was in the Prime timeline. The problem is that the Prime timeline is not the original universe. The Prime timeline is related to the JJ verse not TOS, TNG, DS9, VOYAGER, ENTERPRISE and the first 10 movies. Therefore TRIBBLE is canon but has nothing to do with the original timeline.
Um... what?
The 2009 movie was the start of the KELVIN Timeline. Prime refers to TOS and everything else. And claiming that Discovery is in the Kelvin Timeline is countered by certain facts, such as date the Enterprise was launched and the fact that PARAMOUNT owns the Kelvin Timeline while CBS owns the Prime Timeline. They cannot mix right now due to legal reasons.
> @somtaawkhar said: > ucgsquawk#5883 wrote: » > > Who's to say the treaty with the Sheliak wasn't of limited duration? > Maybe 100 years at which time it was to be renegotiated at such and such place and such and such time. > > The Sheliak could have taken a number of new worlds in that time moving closer to federation space...the Sheliak could demand new concessions. > > Or they come into contact with expanding Klingon interests...can you see the Klingons negotiating with the Sheliak? Ouch. > > > > Who's to say it was? Especially when, by the time of the TNG episode in which it was brought up, it had been active for 111 years. > crypticarmsman wrote: » > > So, what's teh big deal with 'canon' in STO to begin with? > > > > You man besides the fact that Cryptic has done everything they can to ensure that STO fits within canon, and has even said that they will retcon things in STO, if possible, to fit the upcoming Picard show? > > Whats the big deal with canon? Besides the fact the entire game is based around it?
Well if you're trying to introduce the Sheliak this is one way...otherwise yes you are correct they can say it's anything they want...that's kind of my entire point in saying the treaty doesn't have to be permanent. Not really sure what point you were trying to make other than just saying something different....?
Our biggest problem is if Picard isn't set AFTER the Iconian war...otherwise its going to be hard to retcon that the Iconian war never happened into STO.
OR... we continue on as STO is not canon. If Picard's show doesn't drastically conflict with STO's story, then we'll see some stuff added in. If it conflicts too much, the Devs aren't going to retcon half the game to conform to the show. We're our own branch of the multiverse.
Or we'll have some one-off mini-series where we go back in time and undo the whole thing. I feel like Cryptic are going to want to keep STO as canon as possible - which is why we have very little of Kelvin in the game.
Actually... the Devs have said that they're not afraid to branch off if the Picard series conflicts A LOT with STO's background. If its only a little, they can tweak a bit to line it up more. But too much and you might as well just make a brand new game.
I also think the Orion Pirate Cartel(s) are an interesting thread to explore. We saw them cause issues in Enterprise, TNG, and DS9. They have resources and ships and planets under their control. Everybody hates them on paper, but makes deals for weapons during wars, or materials, etc.
This would be an AMAZING faction to play. Similar to Dominion, starts at level 60 and all current missions are just replayable history in the holodeck. But you would have possibly a built up military force while the galaxy has been fighting Iconians, and Breen, and Tholians, and Borg, etc.....the cartels go unnoticed harvesting ship wrecks after battles. Thus an easy explanation for having *some* sort of access to faction ships. as well as whatever spitball designs they want to come up with themselves for actual "orion" ships. So I don't know if its a cartel faction or a merchant faction or whatever. But they have always been a thorn in the side of major galactic powers, etc.
Im not saying get into slave trading or anything, but a faction race that can buy ALL faction ships (add a 100 zen charge to all ships, even player owned. since you would be buying them from black market vendors or something) and have access to all player zones (similar to diplomatic immunity, but built in) so you could visit ESD and academy, Rom Flotilla, Etc. And the player missions new to this faction could be overlays for current time periods we already have dealt with. Having to smuggle a diplomat or something through an Iconian blockade, or sneak into Sheliak space to do something or other, or interactions with the Children of Kahn that go south (because why wouldnt they?) thus tieing in some loose ends.
I also think the Orion Pirate Cartel(s) are an interesting thread to explore. We saw them cause issues in Enterprise, TNG, and DS9. They have resources and ships and planets under their control. Everybody hates them on paper, but makes deals for weapons during wars, or materials, etc.
In STO the Orion Syndicate is the Orion Government, and they joined the Klingon Empire who largely let them keep on doing as they were. Though, the Klingon Empire does step on the syndicate's operations when needed. So you technically already can play as an Orion Syndicate operative.
Also, having them able to visit every faction zone would probably be impossible since, due to the way the game is coded, you HAVE to eventually pick Fed or KDF, since those are the only two real "factions" in the game's code.
The problem I have with that is it just references the Orion SPECIES. The cartels had Humans, Ferengi, Klingons, Etc, etc.
From a coding perspective, why couldn't your faction change as needed? Like switching on a transponder in Star Trek? Or why couldn't a character have both factions? Creating a new faction all together, why couldn't they give you the option to switch back and forth or have both?
I guess you could also do the reverse? START in a given faction, play through their missions and have like the Phillip Cray pop ups now and then making you grow disenchanted by your faction's decisions (think how all those fed officers went to the Maquis?) and at some point you LEAVE your faction? So I guess that would allow you into the faction zones....but we already have so many multi-zone locations like DS9 or Drozana, etc. Add a Cartel planet or space station or something I guess? But the mission overlay idea would allow you to still play the faction "story" missions, but keep being interrupted by whomever, that has you find artifacts throughout the missions (delta and temporal recruit style) that convince you your faction is not all that good. Have a few missions at end game level (Gamma style) where your choice to leave culminates and you go rogue? So then they only have to create T6 ships for the new faction, as you would be in your faction ships until then?
But the game already has the Orion Slavers hanger pet that can steal EC and commodities (so kinda worthless in today's version of the game) but the MECHANIC was already programmed in for Piracy. So the faction would gain salvage from destroying enemies (like Delta and Temporal got minimal dilithium) or you could automatically raise the value of looted items by one rarity? Not a real risk since the best drop is Mk XII VR right now, so you would have character bound Mk XII Ultra Rare in best case scenario (as random as a VR loot drop happens)
They could also USE some of these other ideas for the handful of storyline missions for this faction. The Feds BROKE the accord with the Sheliak, or tried to hunt down the Children of Kahn, or kept developing the Pegasus phase cloak, or whatever. So don't really need to create a new arc, just a spin on current missions. Make your character wonder WHY we agreed to help the Kobali when they were....freaking wrong. Simple....hmmmm....that doesn't seem right moments throughout the game are WHY you choose to leave. You make it to the highest rank and have access to all the facts, and mutiny. Join the cartels that turn out to (NOW) actually trying to at least be honest with who they are?
Xenophobic isolationism asside... the SCOPE of the Treaty indicates a need for precision. And I don't think it was just the Federation who drafted it, as most treaties do tend to have something from both sides that both sides agree to. A lot of that is probably Sheliak.
But they don't come across as the kind to expand their territory through conquest like the Klingons. They're more meticulus than Tholians.
And again we only have the one episode involving contact with a single colony ship. We don't have enough to say "This is what they will do". The Sheliak are as developed as other one off creatures of the week.
Besides... If the Sheliak try to cite treaty violations against the Federation because of incursions by a 3rd party that did NOT sign the treaty, that is a really big stretch. And Starfleet can always do the same thing Picard did and call for arbitration by a third party.
And if I remember correctly... Picard actually tricked the Sheliak into giving him the time he needed by playing on their impatience. He called for arbitration from a third party, as allowed by treaty in cases of dispute... and requested it be some other species that just happened to start their hybernation cycle recently. So basically... "give me the time I need or we can wait for these guys to wake up, which by then would make this debate moot because we'd be done by then anyways."
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Xenophobic isolationism asside... the SCOPE of the Treaty indicates a need for precision. And I don't think it was just the Federation who drafted it, as most treaties do tend to have something from both sides that both sides agree to. A lot of that is probably Sheliak.
But they don't come across as the kind to expand their territory through conquest like the Klingons. They're more meticulus than Tholians.
And again we only have the one episode involving contact with a single colony ship. We don't have enough to say "This is what they will do". The Sheliak are as developed as other one off creatures of the week.
Besides... If the Sheliak try to cite treaty violations against the Federation because of incursions by a 3rd party that did NOT sign the treaty, that is a really big stretch. And Starfleet can always do the same thing Picard did and call for arbitration by a third party.
And if I remember correctly... Picard actually tricked the Sheliak into giving him the time he needed by playing on their impatience. He called for arbitration from a third party, as allowed by treaty in cases of dispute... and requested it be some other species that just happened to start their hybernation cycle recently. So basically... "give me the time I need or we can wait for these guys to wake up, which by then would make this debate moot because we'd be done by then anyways."
In the episode it was stated that the reason why the treaty had so many pages was due to the Sheliak obsession with precise wording. Also, the Sheliak version isn't that long. That's because the structure of the Sheliak language is more precise.
Comments
Short version: The Sheliak just don't care as long as their territory isn't violated. They're more isolationist than the Tholians.
STO is OUTSIDE of canon then as we've had no series past 2409 (And hell, even the Picard series will be 10 years prior to STO.)
Then there's the fact NOTHING in this game is canon anyway because it's a game. So, what's teh big deal with 'canon' in STO to begin with?
PWE ARC Drone says: "Your STO forum community as you have known it is ended...Display names are irrelevant...Any further sense of community is irrelevant...Resistance is futile...You will be assimilated..."
Maybe 100 years at which time it was to be renegotiated at such and such place and such and such time.
The Sheliak could have taken a number of new worlds in that time moving closer to federation space...the Sheliak could demand new concessions.
Or they come into contact with expanding Klingon interests...can you see the Klingons negotiating with the Sheliak? Ouch.
CBS has confirmed that TRIBBLE was in the Prime timeline. The problem is that the Prime timeline is not the original universe. The Prime timeline is related to the JJ verse not TOS, TNG, DS9, VOYAGER, ENTERPRISE and the first 10 movies. Therefore TRIBBLE is canon but has nothing to do with the original timeline.
Um... what?
The 2009 movie was the start of the KELVIN Timeline. Prime refers to TOS and everything else. And claiming that Discovery is in the Kelvin Timeline is countered by certain facts, such as date the Enterprise was launched and the fact that PARAMOUNT owns the Kelvin Timeline while CBS owns the Prime Timeline. They cannot mix right now due to legal reasons.
> ucgsquawk#5883 wrote: »
>
> Who's to say the treaty with the Sheliak wasn't of limited duration?
> Maybe 100 years at which time it was to be renegotiated at such and such place and such and such time.
>
> The Sheliak could have taken a number of new worlds in that time moving closer to federation space...the Sheliak could demand new concessions.
>
> Or they come into contact with expanding Klingon interests...can you see the Klingons negotiating with the Sheliak? Ouch.
>
>
>
> Who's to say it was? Especially when, by the time of the TNG episode in which it was brought up, it had been active for 111 years.
> crypticarmsman wrote: »
>
> So, what's teh big deal with 'canon' in STO to begin with?
>
>
>
> You man besides the fact that Cryptic has done everything they can to ensure that STO fits within canon, and has even said that they will retcon things in STO, if possible, to fit the upcoming Picard show?
>
> Whats the big deal with canon? Besides the fact the entire game is based around it?
Well if you're trying to introduce the Sheliak this is one way...otherwise yes you are correct they can say it's anything they want...that's kind of my entire point in saying the treaty doesn't have to be permanent.
Not really sure what point you were trying to make other than just saying something different....?
OR... we continue on as STO is not canon. If Picard's show doesn't drastically conflict with STO's story, then we'll see some stuff added in. If it conflicts too much, the Devs aren't going to retcon half the game to conform to the show. We're our own branch of the multiverse.
Actually... the Devs have said that they're not afraid to branch off if the Picard series conflicts A LOT with STO's background. If its only a little, they can tweak a bit to line it up more. But too much and you might as well just make a brand new game.
This would be an AMAZING faction to play. Similar to Dominion, starts at level 60 and all current missions are just replayable history in the holodeck. But you would have possibly a built up military force while the galaxy has been fighting Iconians, and Breen, and Tholians, and Borg, etc.....the cartels go unnoticed harvesting ship wrecks after battles. Thus an easy explanation for having *some* sort of access to faction ships. as well as whatever spitball designs they want to come up with themselves for actual "orion" ships. So I don't know if its a cartel faction or a merchant faction or whatever. But they have always been a thorn in the side of major galactic powers, etc.
Im not saying get into slave trading or anything, but a faction race that can buy ALL faction ships (add a 100 zen charge to all ships, even player owned. since you would be buying them from black market vendors or something) and have access to all player zones (similar to diplomatic immunity, but built in) so you could visit ESD and academy, Rom Flotilla, Etc. And the player missions new to this faction could be overlays for current time periods we already have dealt with. Having to smuggle a diplomat or something through an Iconian blockade, or sneak into Sheliak space to do something or other, or interactions with the Children of Kahn that go south (because why wouldnt they?) thus tieing in some loose ends.
The problem I have with that is it just references the Orion SPECIES. The cartels had Humans, Ferengi, Klingons, Etc, etc.
From a coding perspective, why couldn't your faction change as needed? Like switching on a transponder in Star Trek? Or why couldn't a character have both factions? Creating a new faction all together, why couldn't they give you the option to switch back and forth or have both?
I guess you could also do the reverse? START in a given faction, play through their missions and have like the Phillip Cray pop ups now and then making you grow disenchanted by your faction's decisions (think how all those fed officers went to the Maquis?) and at some point you LEAVE your faction? So I guess that would allow you into the faction zones....but we already have so many multi-zone locations like DS9 or Drozana, etc. Add a Cartel planet or space station or something I guess? But the mission overlay idea would allow you to still play the faction "story" missions, but keep being interrupted by whomever, that has you find artifacts throughout the missions (delta and temporal recruit style) that convince you your faction is not all that good. Have a few missions at end game level (Gamma style) where your choice to leave culminates and you go rogue? So then they only have to create T6 ships for the new faction, as you would be in your faction ships until then?
But the game already has the Orion Slavers hanger pet that can steal EC and commodities (so kinda worthless in today's version of the game) but the MECHANIC was already programmed in for Piracy. So the faction would gain salvage from destroying enemies (like Delta and Temporal got minimal dilithium) or you could automatically raise the value of looted items by one rarity? Not a real risk since the best drop is Mk XII VR right now, so you would have character bound Mk XII Ultra Rare in best case scenario (as random as a VR loot drop happens)
They could also USE some of these other ideas for the handful of storyline missions for this faction. The Feds BROKE the accord with the Sheliak, or tried to hunt down the Children of Kahn, or kept developing the Pegasus phase cloak, or whatever. So don't really need to create a new arc, just a spin on current missions. Make your character wonder WHY we agreed to help the Kobali when they were....freaking wrong. Simple....hmmmm....that doesn't seem right moments throughout the game are WHY you choose to leave. You make it to the highest rank and have access to all the facts, and mutiny. Join the cartels that turn out to (NOW) actually trying to at least be honest with who they are?
Just spitballing.
But they don't come across as the kind to expand their territory through conquest like the Klingons. They're more meticulus than Tholians.
And again we only have the one episode involving contact with a single colony ship. We don't have enough to say "This is what they will do". The Sheliak are as developed as other one off creatures of the week.
Besides... If the Sheliak try to cite treaty violations against the Federation because of incursions by a 3rd party that did NOT sign the treaty, that is a really big stretch. And Starfleet can always do the same thing Picard did and call for arbitration by a third party.
And if I remember correctly... Picard actually tricked the Sheliak into giving him the time he needed by playing on their impatience. He called for arbitration from a third party, as allowed by treaty in cases of dispute... and requested it be some other species that just happened to start their hybernation cycle recently. So basically... "give me the time I need or we can wait for these guys to wake up, which by then would make this debate moot because we'd be done by then anyways."
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