test content
What is the Arc Client?
Install Arc

Interesting theory on what could have been the future of STO post Victory is Life

135678

Comments

  • starswordcstarswordc Member Posts: 10,963 Arc User
    edited February 2019
    nixboox wrote: »
    nixboox wrote: »
    If its happening in a time where no other canon has happened then its outside of canon. You're talking about it being part of the Prime Universe which we're still in debate about too.
    Well
    A. Canon =/= timeline. A timeline is the timeframe all work in a series covers. The Star Trek timeline goes all the way back to WW3 and the Eugenics Wars, and goes all the way up to the Hobus supernova. anything in that period of time is part of trek's timeline. Canon is all works in a series considered official. All of the Trek books are non-canon, but they happen in the same timeline as the shows. Same with STO, it isn't canon, but its in the Prime timeline.

    B. There is no debate about Discovery being in the Prime Universe, CBS has confirmed it. There is no discussion beyond conspiracy theorists trying to make it not.

    I understand why you believe that. What I've tried to tell you is that canon is what we've seen on screen and we haven't seen anything on screen from the Discovery era BEFORE Discovery. Discovery is its own thing which is only loosely drawing pieces from TOS canon. Discovery's location in the Prime Universe is entirely debatable because it could eventually be shown to have been an aberration in the Mirror universe and not the Prime universe. It would explain the different drive systems, different technologies and why Spock is not a pacifist. That is particularly important if Discovery ends sooner rather than later.

    Oh, please.
    • The spore drive didn't appear anywhere else because it failed, by proving unsafe and impractical. So it's a one-off that never went anywhere. The other "new" technologies are things that there's no good reason for them not to have but couldn't do in the '60s, so they added them. Holograms, for one, were demonstrated in ENT; it doesn't take a genius to combine that with a transmitter to make a holographic communication system.
    • Spock wasn't a pacifist in TOS, either.
    • Based on all current information not invented by obsessives trying to keep a show they don't like out of canon, DSC is in the prime timeline.
    "Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
    — Sabaton, "Great War"
    VZ9ASdg.png

    Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
  • ltminnsltminns Member Posts: 12,569 Arc User
    We could use the 'Teacher' from Sigma Draconis 6 like McCoy. All the Lore and info infused into our brain (accessible) in your Ready Room from the Computer. :)
    'But to be logical is not to be right', and 'nothing' on God's earth could ever 'make it' right!'
    Judge Dan Haywood
    'As l speak now, the words are forming in my head.
    l don't know.
    l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
    That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
    Lt. Philip J. Minns
  • baddmoonrizinbaddmoonrizin Member Posts: 10,247 Community Moderator
    This "canon" debate about Discovery is derailing from the original point of the thread. @nixboox If you'd like to discuss your theories and ideas on such things, please do so in another thread. I'm sure there are many in Ten Forward already. Meanwhile, everyone else, please stay on topic.
    GrWzQke.png
    Star Trek Online Volunteer Community Moderator and Resident She-Wolf
    Community Moderators are Unpaid Volunteers and NOT Employees of Gearbox/Cryptic
    Views and Opinions May Not Reflect the Views and Opinions of Gearbox/Cryptic
    ----> Contact Customer Support <----
    Moderation Problems/Issues? Please contact the Community Manager
    Terms of Service / Community Rules and Policies / FCT
    Want the latest information on Star Trek Online?
    Facebook / Twitter / Twitch
  • vegeta50024vegeta50024 Member Posts: 2,335 Arc User
    nixboox wrote: »
    This "canon" debate about Discovery is derailing from the original point of the thread. @nixboox If you'd like to discuss your theories and ideas on such things, please do so in another thread. I'm sure there are many in Ten Forward already. Meanwhile, everyone else, please stay on topic.

    I have no thoughts on Discovery, I haven't seen it. I was just talking about how someone who has only seen Discovery doesn't understand the broader picture of the rest of Star Trek canon. Which was what the OP was talking about, how we could have had a lot more content but Discovery derailed it. I think we can have more content IF we can create a comprehensive narrative from Discovery to the rest of canon.

    No. Somtaawkhar was NOT talking about how Discovery derailed prior plans, exactly. In fact, the devs have stated that they will eventually go back to their prior plans.

    What it sounds like to me is that you feel what the devs are bringing out now is not the kind of content that you want to see, am I right on that?

    I honestly feel that we as players should not be picky about what the devs decide to focus the game on. If it wasn't for Discovery, STO's lifespan might have taken us at most to the 11th anniversary and then they likely would have started running out of things to do. With Discovery and the Picard series, the amount of content we get just going to increase the longer that the shows plan on running concurrently with the game.

    TSC_Signature_Gen_4_-_Vegeta_Small.png
  • ltminnsltminns Member Posts: 12,569 Arc User
    Look, in Lord of the Rings Online when they came out with the 'Riders of Rohan' Expansion it first arrived without an Instance Cluster. When the Cluster was released it was themed around 'The Hobbit' era, about 60 years prior to LOTR.

    Why? They had just released 'The (first) Hobbit' movie. People were p*ssed but it was cross-platform promotion. Businesses are going to do this whenever they can to generate interest ($) in the subject.

    We are going to have to live with it.

    https://youtu.be/ZBo6OWr3zwc
    'But to be logical is not to be right', and 'nothing' on God's earth could ever 'make it' right!'
    Judge Dan Haywood
    'As l speak now, the words are forming in my head.
    l don't know.
    l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
    That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
    Lt. Philip J. Minns
  • vegeta50024vegeta50024 Member Posts: 2,335 Arc User
    nixboox wrote: »
    nixboox wrote: »
    This "canon" debate about Discovery is derailing from the original point of the thread. @nixboox If you'd like to discuss your theories and ideas on such things, please do so in another thread. I'm sure there are many in Ten Forward already. Meanwhile, everyone else, please stay on topic.

    I have no thoughts on Discovery, I haven't seen it. I was just talking about how someone who has only seen Discovery doesn't understand the broader picture of the rest of Star Trek canon. Which was what the OP was talking about, how we could have had a lot more content but Discovery derailed it. I think we can have more content IF we can create a comprehensive narrative from Discovery to the rest of canon.

    No. Somtaawkhar was NOT talking about how Discovery derailed prior plans, exactly. In fact, the devs have stated that they will eventually go back to their prior plans.

    What it sounds like to me is that you feel what the devs are bringing out now is not the kind of content that you want to see, am I right on that?

    I honestly feel that we as players should not be picky about what the devs decide to focus the game on. If it wasn't for Discovery, STO's lifespan might have taken us at most to the 11th anniversary and then they likely would have started running out of things to do. With Discovery and the Picard series, the amount of content we get just going to increase the longer that the shows plan on running concurrently with the game.

    I actually made a direct quote from the first page...the OP was literally talking about Discovery derailing prior plans. I don't have a horse in this race, I just want a comprehensive narrative from Discovery to the 55 years of canon that came before it - I feel like I've been really REALLY clear about that.

    I reviewed the Original Post, and yes Som does say in a sense that Discovery threw a wrench into their post-VIL plans. However, if I know Som enough from his posts, this wrench is a good thing for the game. In the months since Age of Discovery dropped, we got the following:

    - A new sub-faction of the Federation based on a current running series
    - 2 episodes that can be accessed by all factions (present day for Discovery characters, historical simulations for everyone else)
    - 2 episodes that take place in 2409-10 for all factions
    - A TFO that is focused on the siege of Starbase 1
    - A TFO that is focused on the battle of the Binary Stars
    - A TFO that deals with the fallout of Pahvo (just released as a Featured TFO)
    - New ships from an ongoing star trek series
    - An ongoing storyline that has yet to be resolved featuring J'Ula
    - An ongoing storyline that will eventually be resolved featuring Mirror Tilly

    And we still have things to come, like another ground TFO that will feature Ellen Landry from Discovery, 2 more episodes that will potentially be retroactive inserts into the Age of Discovery storyline which will be part of the leveling experience for Discovery characters.

    In regards to the second part, yes, I know you've been clear about your want for a comprehensive narrative. You've already seen a community moderator say that currently it's not only a lot of work to incorporate, it's also largely unneeded. And here's why: Most of the arcs do their best to explain why you're there. This is something that we've all tried to explain to you. In fact, not every species needs to really have a full explanation in my opinion.

    Star Trek Online isn't a game that can easily summarize nearly 54 years & 700+ episodes of history, especially when a majority of series like TNG contain a lot of self contained stories that Discovery-started players wouldn't need to know about.


    TSC_Signature_Gen_4_-_Vegeta_Small.png
  • captainwellscaptainwells Member Posts: 718 Arc User
    edited February 2019
    Back in November of last year, in another interview with P1 Podcast, Al mentioned that he was glad all these new Trek shows are coming out because they were coming up on the end of story ideas for STO, and that they only had a couple left.

    One has to hope that Perfect World staff checks these forums from time to time, because Cryptic devs suggesting that they are running out of ideas is a problem with those devs who've blown their creative wad. Perhaps they could seek gainful employment elsewhere and allow newer minds to run with the intellectual property that has fueled various shows and feature films for fifty years?

    Don't get me wrong, I will take those two years of stories that they do have on backburner once this Discovery mess runs its course, but seriously maybe those folks should move along.

  • zerokillcf2011zerokillcf2011 Member Posts: 545 Arc User
    edited February 2019
    Star Trek narrative = go to SF academy and do "Path to 2409" a LOT. Covers all the important bits.

    Flaming/trolling redacted. — WingedHussar

    For the OP: Did STO following the Discovery story derail the "original" plan for the game? Yes. We know that. The Devs have SAID that they put plans on hold and will come back to it, but for now we are getting great content, some of the best missions, new ships, and NEW PLAYERS. Annoying to old school Star Trek fans because as cool as Discovery is, it doesnt have the feel of Star Trek so its kinda blasphemous? Maybe. But...its not terrible? And...new players!

    For the players in game and for the owners of the game, THAT is the point. Bring new players in and at the same time keeping MOST of the current players engaged. Some will leave, of course, but they ALWAYS are offset by fresh blood.

    Flaming/trolling redacted. — WingedHussar

    The number of people that watched Discovery on TV and then went looking online and found STO and were like, "OMG I have to play so I can see Tilly!" has got to be single digits. Discovery is just new CBS content that they released live to Cryptic to use in game. I don't like Discovery personally (just doesn't feel true to the Star Trek vibe to me, just my opinion), but I see it as SO BADA$$ that I can continue to play a game I DO love (that also happens to be the only current game in the Star Trek universe) that is unfolding LIVE in parallel with a TV show. THAT is cool.
    Post edited by wingedhussar#7584 on
  • thay8472thay8472 Member Posts: 6,100 Arc User
    Killy-Leeta team up? Let's bring down the Federation!
    2gdi5w4mrudm.png
    Typhoon Class please!
  • duncanidaho11duncanidaho11 Member Posts: 7,867 Arc User
    edited February 2019
    nixboox wrote: »
    patrickngo wrote: »
    nixboox wrote: »
    nixboox wrote: »
    No...no... BIGGER picture than that. Who are the Ferengi, what was DS9, who are the Cardassians, why do we care? There is no way to get from Discovery to pre-2002 canon in STO...none. Why do we meet Rom and Leeta and Worf and the Voyager people? Discovery doesn't have a link to those things...at all. We need a narrative that coherently brings 55 years of canon into the scope of what a temporal operative from Discovery-Trek can understand.
    There is no such narrative that can summarize 55 years of canon into a single video game plot. It wouldn't even make sense to have all this information dumped onto the player since the character was born and raised in this universe, and thus, would know most of these things to bring with.

    The closest thing would be something like a Mass Effect or Dragon Age style codex, but that is what Memory Alpha is for.

    I didn't say it would be easy. Beyond the abilities of Cryptic's creative writer(s) to be sure, but it CAN be done. In fact...doing it would open up some great new avenues for more cameos. And, no, your Discovery era character wouldn't know ANY of the things we're trying to impart because Discovery is outside the timeline of the rest of canon. Enterprise went off the air in 2005...it predated everything else in canon timeline so even that doesn't give you access to TOS, TNG, DS9 and VOY. So, we build a narrative from Discovery to Nemesis by weaving THROUGH the episodes we already have and adding unique experiences set in those canon venues. Remember that DS9 episode where Dax and Sisko go back in time to the Trouble with Tribbles episode and interact with Kirk and crew? We have some of that in our Night of the Comet arc. We can build a bunch of those kinds of stories that will introduce the new players to all the different Star Trek properties.

    I'm going to have to disagree. As a practical matter, the writers really can't condense 55 years of Star Trek lore into a starter and have it not break the server.

    hell, even adding the full backstory to every guest appearance would probably break the game.

    Though there IS something that might be done...putting the lore into files and reactivating the Memory Alpha map as a Library with search menus might be useful, but it would be a massive file size and not very useful.

    Just because something hasn't been done doesn't mean it cannot be done.

    But just because something hasn't been done doesn't mean that it should be done. A plot that services the needs of an encyclopedic index is not likely to observe the constraints and principles of effective character, narrative, and world building. Quite simply stated, to a single video game experience not all content from all series will be relevant to even simply reference. This potentially includes everything up to full factions and eras. Add to this the needs of gameplay and the question of which episodes of Trek would be appropriate and interesting venues to build STO missions with and how these would be developed in any practical development project (which do you do first and how exactly do you connect them.)

    The game, quite simply stated, should not be made a walking tour of canon moments. A story told through such disconnected elements (pulled piecemeal from separate narratives and made to stand without that very necessary context) will inevitably fail to build cohesive character arcs, themes, and settings of greater accomplishment than what we have in the game already (and I say this as a senior Foundry author known for building cohesive arcs, themes, and settings of depth and complexity not often found in Cryptic's missions.) Ie. in STO we have episodes where we travel back in time or undertake a holodeck simulation of canon moments but we also have novel connections and innovations on canon which allow the many references or nods to take on greater significance. For example: connecting the Elachi to the Iconians and the Iconians to Hobus, with the sorry affair of their re-ascension indirectly causing the Temporal Cold War leading to a mission where we travel back in time to the ENT era to run interference against the Vorgons (from TNG) during a battle from the ep. Future Tense (ENT 216). If we just did that in (per your suggestion) the moment would have far, far less impact because it would simply be a singular reference made in sequence with other singular references (building a step at a time between eras as if they were originally written as one whole as opposed to separate productions trying to fill time an episode at a time), not a part of an independent story line which could stand without the charity afforded by fanservice.

    Cryptic's free to build while making use of established canon, giving themselves the necessary creative room to make the best stories possible for the format while still providing that thrill of canon invocation. It's the best of both worlds.
    Post edited by duncanidaho11 on
    Bipedal mammal and senior Foundry author.
    Notable missions: Apex [AEI], Gemini [SSF], Trident [AEI], Evolution's Smile [SSF], Transcendence
    Looking for something new to play? I've started building Foundry missions again in visual novel form!
  • duncanidaho11duncanidaho11 Member Posts: 7,867 Arc User
    edited February 2019
    One has to hope that Perfect World staff checks these forums from time to time, because Cryptic devs suggesting that they are running out of ideas is a problem with those devs who've blown their creative wad. Perhaps they could seek gainful employment elsewhere and allow newer minds to run with the intellectual property that has fueled various shows and feature films for fifty years?

    Don't get me wrong, I will take those two years of stories that they do have on backburner once this Discovery mess runs its course, but seriously maybe those folks should move along.
    Or, you know, most Trek aliens don't make for particularly video game plots. Hell, most Trek aliens didn't make for good Trek episodes to begin with.

    When Cryptic is able to base three seasons (12/13/14) on the off-hand references to Tzenkethi and capitalize on that with another off-hand reference (Hur'Q) to write the history of the Dominion I don't think there's a significant argument to make that they're limited in their ability to extrapolate from canon to fill their mission listings, which is kind of beside the point that having two years of story content planned out isn't a final statement on what they planned to make over STO's remaining life. Per dev interviews, that plans changes with time and is continuously added to (and modified to varying degrees) as they proceed through development.

    (Incidentally, the first I heard of STO's ~two years of planned story content was about three years ago.)
    Bipedal mammal and senior Foundry author.
    Notable missions: Apex [AEI], Gemini [SSF], Trident [AEI], Evolution's Smile [SSF], Transcendence
    Looking for something new to play? I've started building Foundry missions again in visual novel form!
  • duncanidaho11duncanidaho11 Member Posts: 7,867 Arc User
    edited February 2019
    Sure, but the Tzenkethi and Hur'q were implied to be creatures of interest or power. When another possible war with the Tzenkethi was mentioned on DS9, basically everyone carped their pants in fear. Same with the Hur'q, a species whose very name still strikes fear into the Klingon over 1,000 years later.

    This is different from the vast majority of Trek aliens who are either friendly, or at least non hostile, have technology weaker then the Federation by miles, and, when they are a threat, are only so in the episode they appear because the hero ship is either by themselves, or the crew did something stupid to make themselves more vulnerable then they otherwise would have been.

    And our ship isn't often by itself or subject to the whims of circumstance turning an otherwise inferior power into a present threat for the story line? At minimum, any motif the shows have used is available to Cryptic and there's no to the amount of handwaving that can be done in the service of drama (including that the differences in tech are grossly overstated in importance as evidenced by the likes of us blowing up Iconian Dreadnaughts.) What defines good conflict in story telling isn't just what kind of differential you create in rote canon but how you use characters, themes, and moments. Cryptic hasn't exhausted that by a long way even with available content.

    Cryptic just released an episode where established figures use circumstance to threaten the player, propelling character drama forward through the careful arrangement of plot details. This kind of story (ie. one that basically describes any story told in in the sci-fi medium, as after all if you're not explaining why the enemy is a threat to the hero you're explaining why the hero is a threat to the enemy in some way) can be carried through (thematically) with any existing faction in the Trek universe that no longer qualifies as >Alliance threat, per reductive comparisons between the size of our guns (so to speak). Ex. Borg and Leetah's terran empire. Add to that the list of established "major powers" (yet to feature) that could satisfy the minimal role of villain of the week which haven't yet been featured in the game. Add to that the list of species which could be made "major threats" through circumstance (a la Elachi, Vaadwuar, Solanae, and the Krenim in this timeline). Add to that the list of species combinations which could satisfy the same (a la Son'a working with Klingons and Tzenkethi). Add to this the list of species which could serve to setup conflicts with any of the above (this is where the likes of Yrridians and Karemma most easily fit in for example.) And of course add to that: new species interacting with canon elements to tell Trek stories where existing species aren't available to fill desired roles (and the Foundry is filled with proof of concepts if this pushes credulity for you. It ain't unnatural for the IP or game.)

    There is literally no limit to the creative potential available to STO because the furthest and deepest possible extrapolations of a universe will always find more detail to create stories with. If all else fails then they could always move forward with the temporal intrigue and set the player as a temporal agent working through the multi-billion year history of civilization that logically lies ahead of the Star Trek universe (and all that came before it.) Where limits come are in the economics of the game and practical constraints of development, not the writing.
    Bipedal mammal and senior Foundry author.
    Notable missions: Apex [AEI], Gemini [SSF], Trident [AEI], Evolution's Smile [SSF], Transcendence
    Looking for something new to play? I've started building Foundry missions again in visual novel form!
  • duncanidaho11duncanidaho11 Member Posts: 7,867 Arc User
    edited February 2019
    nixboox wrote: »
    You're reaching too far. The game doesn't contain everything in canon, it only contains a small amount BUT what it contains is entirely removed from Discovery-Trek's sphere of operation. So, as a Discovery player joining Star Trek Online, we need a narrative that brings them FROM Discovery to each of the canon points we have in the game. The game is already a walking tour of canon moments but WITHOUT the narrative that connects them altogether. I feel like you don't see that because your mind already has that narrative filled in. You lack the ability to be a new player coming to this game with your only knowledge of Star Trek being Discovery. Right now we have some random pop-ups that will occasionally be like "On stardate 5693 a ship went missing and now we found it" Okay, well...that's nice... The whole game is a love letter to trekkies but for people who aren't trekkies and for people who are yet to become trekkies...do I even have to type it...again?

    We need...a...comprehensive...narrative...

    I've only seen the first half of DSC season 1 myself and I have no problem following what's happening with the Terrans and Pahvo. In fact for Pahvo I just looked up the page on memory alpha to see if I was missing anything that wasn't contained in the episodes. Short answer: no. The story is cohesive. It doesn't need to be comprehensive to be comprehensible by any means what-so-ever (because it's immediate context which matters most and that for AOD has been well provided.)
    Bipedal mammal and senior Foundry author.
    Notable missions: Apex [AEI], Gemini [SSF], Trident [AEI], Evolution's Smile [SSF], Transcendence
    Looking for something new to play? I've started building Foundry missions again in visual novel form!
This discussion has been closed.