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Science Vessel Drought

Anyone else kinda bothered about how the last true c-store science vessels we got (Not counting the Cardie Science Dread or Jem carrier) were the T6 Multi-missions over two years ago? Could we please have some more true science vessels in the c-store please? We’ve been getting so many cruisers and escorts lately.
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  • avoozuulavoozuul Member Posts: 2,053 Arc User
    Well then maybe it's about time we got a T6 Oberth and T6 Nova.
  • firstaid#5667 firstaid Member Posts: 63 Arc User
    > @avoozuul said:
    > Well then maybe it's about time we got a T6 Oberth and T6 Nova.

    Indeed, they are beautiful designs that deserve T6.
  • ltminnsltminns Member Posts: 7,939 Arc User
    T'Pau?
    'But to be logical is not to be right', and 'nothing' on God's earth could ever 'make it' right!
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  • davefenestratordavefenestrator Member Posts: 6,338 Arc User
    edited February 10
    ltminns wrote: »
    T'Pau?

    It's a nice ship and free too but OP said "C-Store" not event, lock box, lobi or R&D pack.

    I already own a pile of Fed SCIENCE! ships so I hadn't noticed the drought.

  • ltminnsltminns Member Posts: 7,939 Arc User
    Well sure if you want to spend 'money' for an Account Unlock ship instead of...
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  • captainbmoneycaptainbmoney Member Posts: 1,296 Arc User
    T6 Nova/Rhode Island plz. preferably with boff slots similar to Fleet T5.

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  • reyan01reyan01 Member Posts: 12,073 Arc User
    edited February 10
    ltminns wrote: »
    T'Pau?
    It's a nice ship and free too but OP said "C-Store" not event, lock box, lobi or R&D pack.

    It's not technically a pure science ship; it's a scout ship (namely a sort of Raider-Sci hybrid).
    avoozuul wrote: »
    Well then maybe it's about time we got a T6 Oberth and T6 Nova.

    Agreed. But we won't. They haven't used all of the Discovery ship designs yet. I think it is, sadly, far more likely that they'll make the Hoover class (as yet not a playable ship in-game) a science vessel and give it a 25th century skin, and continue to ignore the Nova.

    Indeed, they are beautiful designs that deserve T6.
    https://arcgames.com/en/forums/startrekonline/#/discussion/1243786/nova-class-the-t5-ship-the-game-forgot/p1
    3U3C0SJ.jpg

  • szimszim Member Posts: 2,326 Arc User
    The only possible explanation for this "drought in science ships" and unwillingness to release T6 versions of the Nova and Oberth, is that science ships do not sell as well as raiders, escorts, cruisers and battlecruisers. But if they give those ships a powerful enough trait and console, for example providing a large boost to exotic damage, they would sell very well.
  • reyan01reyan01 Member Posts: 12,073 Arc User
    szim wrote: »
    The only possible explanation for this "drought in science ships" and unwillingness to release T6 versions of the Nova and Oberth, is that science ships do not sell as well as raiders, escorts, cruisers and battlecruisers. But if they give those ships a powerful enough trait and console, for example providing a large boost to exotic damage, they would sell very well.

    It's a sneaky practice though - myself and several of my friends purchased the science Andorian Pilot Escort simply for the 'Improved Gravity Well' trait, due to the benefit said trait offers to science ships.

    But it was attached to an Escort and therefore made it appear that Escorts sell better.....
    3U3C0SJ.jpg

  • mirrorchaosmirrorchaos Member Posts: 9,671 Arc User
    edited February 10
    szim wrote: »
    The only possible explanation for this "drought in science ships" and unwillingness to release T6 versions of the Nova and Oberth, is that science ships do not sell as well as raiders, escorts, cruisers and battlecruisers. But if they give those ships a powerful enough trait and console, for example providing a large boost to exotic damage, they would sell very well.

    I don't believe that for a moment and yet i can't argue against it since cruisers and escorts are more abundant than science ships. a pure science ship bundle would be nice which includes the Nova and Oberth along with a seperate Miranda variant since before the Nebula the Miranda was the primary science ship in Starfleet and this means the KDF, RRW and DOM factions also a need a few of their own, most notably the Dominion are lacking specialized ships compared to other factions.

    It could easily be a Science operations pack, with about 10-12 ships and a number of other things.
    T6 Miranda Hero Ship FTW.
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  • szimszim Member Posts: 2,326 Arc User
    reyan01 wrote: »
    szim wrote: »
    The only possible explanation for this "drought in science ships" and unwillingness to release T6 versions of the Nova and Oberth, is that science ships do not sell as well as raiders, escorts, cruisers and battlecruisers. But if they give those ships a powerful enough trait and console, for example providing a large boost to exotic damage, they would sell very well.

    It's a sneaky practice though - myself and several of my friends purchased the science Andorian Pilot Escort simply for the 'Improved Gravity Well' trait, due to the benefit said trait offers to science ships.

    But it was attached to an Escort and therefore made it appear that Escorts sell better.....

    I bought that one as well, only for the trait. There are three main selling points for ships. Configuration (seats, console and weapon slots), trait and console and appearance. Given a good enough trait, even a flying toaster would sell well. And Oberth and Nova class are canon ships which received a considerable amount of screen time.
  • ltminnsltminns Member Posts: 7,939 Arc User
    edited February 10
    > @szim said:
    >But if they give those ships a powerful enough trait and console, for example providing a large boost to exotic damage, they would sell very well.

    Sure, powerful enough, at least for a month or so. Then as usual, nerf it to the ground. ;)
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  • captainbmoneycaptainbmoney Member Posts: 1,296 Arc User
    Still waiting on Improved Photonic Shockwave.

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  • reyan01reyan01 Member Posts: 12,073 Arc User
    > @captainbmoney said:
    > Still waiting on Improved Photonic Shockwave.

    https://sto.gamepedia.com/Trait:_Delphic_Shockwave
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  • brian334brian334 Member Posts: 2,085 Arc User
    The big problem with science ships is that they don't parse well. A good percentage of the damage they enable is inflicted by, and counted toward, the other ships in the match. Another issue is that historically, whenever a science meta was effective, the reaction has been to call for a nerf to the OP science ability. Look how exotic 'screwed up' Crystalline Entity for an example.

    Given Cryptic's favoritism for raw damage over team support in virtually every mission and the community-accepted metric of DPS based on a parser that ignores the bulk of a science ship's contribution, science ships are a niche choice selected by the few who don't mind the continual tweaks to weaken their strengths and their constantly being overlooked by the development staff for new and improved abilities, traits, and ships.

    So it's no wonder science ships don't sell well. It's a self-reinforcing trend: the more sci sucks, the less people will be interested in it.
  • firstaid#5667 firstaid Member Posts: 63 Arc User
    It is rather sad that they seem to think science doesn’t sell well.

    Even after all the nerfs science has gotten over the years, I find science vessels to be much more fun/interesting to work with than the usual cruiser. It’s just a shame there is such a lack of variety with them while cruisers and escort users continue to get more and more.

    I agree with all of you, science vessels will still sell if they have classic skins and/or powerful traits and consoles. Hopefully Cryptic eventually figures that out.
  • azrael605azrael605 Member Posts: 8,668 Arc User
    > @firstaid#5667 said:
    > It is rather sad that they seem to think science doesn’t sell well.
    >
    > Even after all the nerfs science has gotten over the years, I find science vessels to be much more fun/interesting to work with than the usual cruiser. It’s just a shame there is such a lack of variety with them while cruisers and escort users continue to get more and more.
    >
    > I agree with all of you, science vessels will still sell if they have classic skins and/or powerful traits and consoles. Hopefully Cryptic eventually figures that out.

    Conversely while Sci is my favorite career I hate Sci ships.
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  • captainbmoneycaptainbmoney Member Posts: 1,296 Arc User
    reyan01 wrote: »
    > @captainbmoney said:
    > Still waiting on Improved Photonic Shockwave.

    https://sto.gamepedia.com/Trait:_Delphic_Shockwave

    that's just an addon. I'm talking like makes the basic ability better. sorta like the Improved Gravity Well mentioned above. Dephic just adds to it.

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  • azrael605azrael605 Member Posts: 8,668 Arc User
    > @captainbmoney said:
    > reyan01 wrote: »
    >
    > > @captainbmoney said:
    > > Still waiting on Improved Photonic Shockwave.
    >
    > https://sto.gamepedia.com/Trait:_Delphic_Shockwave
    >
    >
    >
    >
    > that's just an addon. I'm talking like makes the basic ability better. sorta like the Improved Gravity Well mentioned above. Dephic just adds to it.

    "Makes the base ability better" is the definition of add on.
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  • darkbladejkdarkbladejk Member Posts: 1,435 Community Moderator
    brian334 wrote: »
    The big problem with science ships is that they don't parse well. A good percentage of the damage they enable is inflicted by, and counted toward, the other ships in the match. Another issue is that historically, whenever a science meta was effective, the reaction has been to call for a nerf to the OP science ability. Look how exotic 'screwed up' Crystalline Entity for an example.

    Given Cryptic's favoritism for raw damage over team support in virtually every mission and the community-accepted metric of DPS based on a parser that ignores the bulk of a science ship's contribution, science ships are a niche choice selected by the few who don't mind the continual tweaks to weaken their strengths and their constantly being overlooked by the development staff for new and improved abilities, traits, and ships.

    So it's no wonder science ships don't sell well. It's a self-reinforcing trend: the more sci sucks, the less people will be interested in it.

    Science deals more of their damage over time and through exotic based effects so naturally their parses are going to be a bit different than other ships that just spam FAW and go. Since science abilities do alot of AOE type damage this means that if they start cracking a bunch of gravity wells, subspace vortex etc, more than likely their parse will get rejected for gate doping if they try to upload it to one of the leagues associated with each of the 3rd party parsers. Even if they pull good numbers, if they get hit with the gate doping thing you won't see their parse anyways, at least as far as ISA is concerned.

    I also don't mean this the way it will sound, but have you actually examined why certain sci powers were nerfed? Feedback pulse is the prime example of a power that needed to be nerfed. That power alone could be worth well over 70k DPS when it was considered the meta. Not only that but we saw instances of that power doing well over 14m points of damage in a single hit. In no universe is that not OP and worthy of a nerf.

    science is more than capable, it just requires a bit more finesse
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  • captainbmoneycaptainbmoney Member Posts: 1,296 Arc User
    [quote="azrael605;c-13474399

    "Makes the base ability better" is the definition of add on.[/quote]

    lol. I'm talking without the dephic stuffnjunk.

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  • lianthelialianthelia Member Posts: 6,706 Arc User
    edited February 10
    reyan01 wrote: »
    ltminns wrote: »
    T'Pau?
    It's a nice ship and free too but OP said "C-Store" not event, lock box, lobi or R&D pack.

    It's not technically a pure science ship; it's a scout ship (namely a sort of Raider-Sci hybrid).
    avoozuul wrote: »
    Well then maybe it's about time we got a T6 Oberth and T6 Nova.

    Agreed. But we won't. They haven't used all of the Discovery ship designs yet. I think it is, sadly, far more likely that they'll make the Hoover class (as yet not a playable ship in-game) a science vessel and give it a 25th century skin, and continue to ignore the Nova.

    Indeed, they are beautiful designs that deserve T6.
    https://arcgames.com/en/forums/startrekonline/#/discussion/1243786/nova-class-the-t5-ship-the-game-forgot/p1

    But the Scout ships are better...just like the Science Spearhead is better. They can do everything a Science ship can do but better...lets be honest...Science ships are generally considered some of the weakest ships in game.

    Now I'm not saying they can't be powerful....but these new Scout ships and (hopefully) Science Spearheads will add some punch to Science ships.

  • majorcharvenakmajorcharvenak Member Posts: 102 Arc User
    ltminns wrote: »
    T'Pau?

    It's a nice ship and free too but OP said "C-Store" not event, lock box, lobi or R&D pack.

    I already own a pile of Fed SCIENCE! ships so I hadn't noticed the drought.

    That well has been dry for many years for the other factions. At least, until they allowed the Rom side to fly the ships of the other factions.
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  • brian334brian334 Member Posts: 2,085 Arc User
    brian334 wrote: »
    The big problem with science ships is that they don't parse well. A good percentage of the damage they enable is inflicted by, and counted toward, the other ships in the match. Another issue is that historically, whenever a science meta was effective, the reaction has been to call for a nerf to the OP science ability. Look how exotic 'screwed up' Crystalline Entity for an example.

    Given Cryptic's favoritism for raw damage over team support in virtually every mission and the community-accepted metric of DPS based on a parser that ignores the bulk of a science ship's contribution, science ships are a niche choice selected by the few who don't mind the continual tweaks to weaken their strengths and their constantly being overlooked by the development staff for new and improved abilities, traits, and ships.

    So it's no wonder science ships don't sell well. It's a self-reinforcing trend: the more sci sucks, the less people will be interested in it.

    Science deals more of their damage over time and through exotic based effects so naturally their parses are going to be a bit different than other ships that just spam FAW and go. Since science abilities do alot of AOE type damage this means that if they start cracking a bunch of gravity wells, subspace vortex etc, more than likely their parse will get rejected for gate doping if they try to upload it to one of the leagues associated with each of the 3rd party parsers. Even if they pull good numbers, if they get hit with the gate doping thing you won't see their parse anyways, at least as far as ISA is concerned.

    I also don't mean this the way it will sound, but have you actually examined why certain sci powers were nerfed? Feedback pulse is the prime example of a power that needed to be nerfed. That power alone could be worth well over 70k DPS when it was considered the meta. Not only that but we saw instances of that power doing well over 14m points of damage in a single hit. In no universe is that not OP and worthy of a nerf.

    science is more than capable, it just requires a bit more finesse

    Agree on all points. Some abilities were OP and needed nerfing.

    However, the majority of Science nerfs came as a result of a small number of players who focused their build around a single ability, made it powerful, and the complaint-storm ensued. And most of the nerfs were of abilities which never even came close to the effectiveness of a BFAW build on a Tac/Cruiser.
  • xyquarzexyquarze Member Posts: 1,815 Arc User
    edited February 11
    It is rather sad that they seem to think science doesn’t sell well.

    I don't think they just think that, they should know since they have access to the data.
    (...) more than likely their parse will get rejected for gate doping

    Huh, haven't that one before. Anyone can explain it to a non DPS league player?
    (...) the KDF, RRW and DOM factions also a need a few of their own, most notably the Dominion are lacking specialized ships compared to other factions.

    While I would like to be wrong here, my guess is that JH (it is, as has been repeatedly stated, not a DOM fraction) will always rely on Fed/KDF ships for their special needs. There may be some specialized JH ships in the future but since they offer even less of unique stuff than Rom, I'd guess the numbers of JH are relatively low, so making a unique design for them especially when they can get the basically same ship via their faction is probably not going to happen too often, and even less probable for a less popular class like Sci ships.

    Speaking as a science lover myself, I would like to have more choice and be way more inclined to put my money into a nice Sci one than the umpteenth cruiser. Even though they're a mixed bag, as other ships are too of course. But as has been said, there are three major selling points:

    1) General setup (boff seating, consoles, sometimes weapon layout though less so on sci)
    2) Trait and or special console
    3) Looks and general "feel", the "cool ship"

    3 will always be a matter of taste. Some dislike gazillions of Fed saucers, others think they're the only ships that count. You can sell ships through this, but you cannot really plan it.

    1 is the "efficiency" factor but it suffers a bit from the issue that, barring some spec seating, almost everybody will have a ship catering to their needs and wants.

    My guess is that 2 is the one factor cryptic really controls that can make or break a ship's sales. (Well, you can always TRIBBLE up 1 to break it). The Andorian escort reversed would be an interesting issue: make a sci ship with a trait like "energy weapons fire twice as fast while only using half the energy", and it'll sell like cupcakes. However, it probably won't be used past getting the trait.

    In the end, in (almost?) all MMOs people prefer the damage dealer to the tank and the tank to the supporter. STO of course compounds this with the fact that neither tank nor support are really needed.
    Post edited by xyquarze on
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  • ssbn655ssbn655 Member Posts: 1,857 Arc User
    Anything can happen not kidding with that. For years we were told a T-6 version of the best Klingon cruiser was never going to happen that being the Korvat. Well we finally got it last year so it could happen.
  • reyan01reyan01 Member Posts: 12,073 Arc User
    edited February 11
    I have to say, this 'science doesn't sell well' thing is utter nonsense.

    I, for one, have purchased ships that I had little or no intention of using beyond unlocking a trait. To use the example I cited earlier - I purchased the Andorian Pilot Escort (with the science emphasis) because the 'Improved Gravity Well' Starship trait was/is too good to pass up on. However, I haven't used said ship since unlocking that trait. The trait was to benefit my FT5-U Nova.
    And I truly LOATHE this practice. By purchasing said ship I've contributed to statistics that show that Escorts sell better than science ships.

    As we've discussed, it's NOT all about the 'ship' anymore. As @szim said:
    szim wrote: »
    Given a good enough trait, even a flying toaster would sell well.
    And it's true - we CANNOT say 'science doesn't sell' because this an environment where players will buy ANY ship so long as it has a good starship trait and/or console.

    3U3C0SJ.jpg

  • ruinthefunruinthefun Member Posts: 2,109 Arc User
    szim wrote: »
    The only possible explanation for this "drought in science ships" and unwillingness to release T6 versions of the Nova and Oberth, is that science ships do not sell as well as raiders, escorts, cruisers and battlecruisers. But if they give those ships a powerful enough trait and console, for example providing a large boost to exotic damage, they would sell very well.
    It's hard to sell science ships because they tend to differ radically from other kinds of ship, rendering a captain that is qualified to escorts and cruisers generally incapable of flying science ships effectively, as they work off different skill trees. Additionally, there's not a lot of variety in their style. Outside of changing the spec seat, most science ships are very similar and you have to really go far off the path to make something that's different enough to be noticeable to people who don't get them just for the ASScards.
  • lianthelialianthelia Member Posts: 6,706 Arc User
    ruinthefun wrote: »
    szim wrote: »
    The only possible explanation for this "drought in science ships" and unwillingness to release T6 versions of the Nova and Oberth, is that science ships do not sell as well as raiders, escorts, cruisers and battlecruisers. But if they give those ships a powerful enough trait and console, for example providing a large boost to exotic damage, they would sell very well.
    It's hard to sell science ships because they tend to differ radically from other kinds of ship, rendering a captain that is qualified to escorts and cruisers generally incapable of flying science ships effectively, as they work off different skill trees. Additionally, there's not a lot of variety in their style. Outside of changing the spec seat, most science ships are very similar and you have to really go far off the path to make something that's different enough to be noticeable to people who don't get them just for the ASScards.

    Not to mention those spec seats hardly differ...pretty much every Sci ship in the game is shoehorned with either Intel or Temporal...there are a couple with Command, but nothing with Pilot or Miracle Worker to the best of my knowledge. (Why I hope with a T6 Nova they would do pilot since it is a small and agile ship)

  • mustrumridcully0mustrumridcully0 Member Posts: 12,023 Arc User
    edited February 11
    I don't know what Science nerfs are people talking about. Science is an absolute killer in space. The Battle of the BInary Stars is ridicilous with a good grav well build - you suck about 2/3 of the map and then you see everything melt in short time.
    If you want to feel really powerful. BFAW or CSV builds have trouble even catching that many foes under normal circumstances. Of course, if you also have those around, and a grav well, it's even more ridiculous, the synergy is glorious.

    Of course, the battlefield doesn't look or feel at all like "real" Star Trek with a Science Vessel around. Maybe that's the reason why people prefer Cruisers in the end. It's just a bit closer to what Star Trek looked like in movies or TV. Even if it's still too much bling.
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