Heh, I guess not everything Drex ever made was gold. That thing looks like it was pieced together out of scrap metal found on Jakku.
dunno, it has a certain amount of innate charm, and unlike the organic junkpile fusions from Discovery, it actually looks like it might have been made by people who use math and engineering when designing things instead of ink-blots and incantations, and it shares lines and concepts from both predecessor designs, and successors (unlike the techo-organic gobbeldygook of ST:D's 'Klingon' designs.)
What engineering? It looks like a few bolts and bits of used sheet metal with nacelles and guns bolted on.
The Qoj, bortaS bir, Qaw', Veqlargh, Chargh, and Jach classes look so much better than anything ENT put out. Other than the D5 the ENT ships were just boring clones of the TNG ships. The only thing they had over the DSC ships above is they were green and grey and not the strange colours of the DSC ships.
Still, when they come to STO they'll have the option to change the hull material so I'll just stick my bortaS bir in the Type 3.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though. JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
Heh, I guess not everything Drex ever made was gold. That thing looks like it was pieced together out of scrap metal found on Jakku.
dunno, it has a certain amount of innate charm, and unlike the organic junkpile fusions from Discovery, it actually looks like it might have been made by people who use math and engineering when designing things instead of ink-blots and incantations, and it shares lines and concepts from both predecessor designs, and successors (unlike the techo-organic gobbeldygook of ST:D's 'Klingon' designs.)
What engineering? It looks like a few bolts and bits of used sheet metal with nacelles and guns bolted on.
as opposed to being implanted in the corpse of a dead megafauna, perhaps?
I'm guessing you're talking about the Negh'var?
or being a fungal infection on a broken chevy engine?
Vor'cha?
it's symmetrical for starters, the parts serve obvious purposes next, which are purposes you'd expect parts of a spaceship to serve.
Since when has that mattered in Star Trek? The Breen have made weirdly shaped bits of who-knows-what into ships for all of their designs. And since it's sci-fi the idea we actually know what the lumps of metal bolted to the hull actually do is silly.
In Wing Commander, the Kilrathi use Base 8. That is different from what humans use.
Also note that all the ships used as a comparision against the Discovery designs are actually simpler than the Discovery designs. Perhaps a more plausible solution is that after the Fed-Klingon War, L'Rell discovered that their current designs were not as easy to maintain in a prolonged engagement with a superpower that has a stronger economy like the Federation. Kinda like how in WW2 German tanks were overengineered and spent even pretty much just as much time in maintenance as they did in the field.
Solution: Simpler designs for easier maintenance. While their Discovery era designs were intimidating... they're also probably a little overengineered. Hence the introduction of the simpler but just as effective D7, which would start driving ship design for the next hundred years at least.
a group shot of Pre-Discovery Klingon ships, showing engineering commonality:
What the Discovery ships lack, is any sense of being built by Klingons. They'd fit perfectly with a Chaos-aligned race in Warhammer 40K's "Battlefleet Gothic" setting, but they don't even look like they could come from the same universe, nevermind timeline, race, and industrial base, as the pre-disco Klingon ships.
Interesting job of cherry picking.
Some are from ENT, but some are from TNG....
Did you miss the point I was trying to make though? We're GONNA see more traditional looking Klingon designs. Or did you miss THIS
A rather OBVIOUS hologram of a D7. A classic D7 like we saw in TOS.
However we still don't know the WHY. I provided a very plausible theory for why they are gonna switch from the Discovery designs to ships like the D7. Ease of maintenance. You're going from basically each house having their own shipyards to a standardized design for the entire fleet, similar to how Starfleet handles ship construction.
The current ships have a psychological impact, but due to their complexity, would most likely spend more time undergoing maintenance and repairs than their Fed equivelents. Most likely a key weakness recognized by L'Rell despite the fact that the Klingons were wiping the floor with the Federation due to the Cloak Tech. By using information gathered through fighting the Federation, these flaws were identified, and thus the first step in correcting these flaws is to design a simpler ship. Thus... D7 Battlecruiser K'Tinga Class.
When they were fighting each other, they didn't have to worry as much about downtime because the houses were all using the same designs that were overly complex. On the other hand Federation designs were simpler and easier to repair and maintain, thus allowing for them to be repaired and deployed faster than their Klingon counterparts. A clear weakness that would need to be addressed before the next conflict between the Federation and the Empire.
Think of it like World War 2 Tanks. Yea the German Tiger was a beast, but for every Tiger, there was somewhere around 5 Shermans at least. Why? Simpler design that was easier to mass produce.
What's your position? Oh right, that all Klingons use the same design philosophy. Not that you've explained what you think that philosophy IS.
As for whether Klingon ships sometimes look techno-organic... when's the last time you looked at a B'rel? Must have been a while...
also...
it doesn't have useless heavy arcy structures going nowhere that do nothing
How would you know whether they were useless? For example, the Scimitar's wings, we know they have a specific purpose. But, just because we don't know what a spike sticking out of the hull DOES, that doesn't mean it doesn't have one, merely that we don't know what it is.I don't see anything sticking out of the hull that obviously has NO purpose. for all we know the spikes could be part of the shield systems.
Why are you bothering with arguing with patrickngo? You'd have seen from his word salads on Ten Forward that he has a idealistic version of Trek in his head that the shows never show and for completely arbitrary reasons only material made on or after 2009 is to be compared against this imaginary standard with any pre-2009 material automatically excluded.
You can point out all the examples of pre-2009 shows that prove his imaginary version wrong and they'll be ignored and you can point out when his 'criticisms' of post-2009 Trek is made up or non-canon and he'll continue to use them.
Mind you, even if CBS crawled inside his brain and produced 'Trek According to Patrickngo' as a new show he'd still complain because he still does that against things he's admitted were good points of post-2009 Trek.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though. JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
Problem being, if spikes are needed for the shields, then you'd see them on Federation ships too, or andorian, or Vulcan, because it's already established that "Shields are shields are shields",
Except they're NOT. Most eps don't bother explaining details like that, but it has been established that ships don't necessarily have a single shield generator.
the problem you're ignoring, is that the techs are basically similar enough that if something is necessary for a basic system,
Who said necessary? IRL engineers don't build things based on minimalist specs. It's surprisingly common for people to take a basic system and then just add stuff on top of it to make it do more stuff.
there's no question that they're different ships, from different nations, but they're built using the same physics and engineering principles.
and now we get Discovery's ships, and they clearly are not built using the same physical laws.
You've not actually demonstrated this to be the case.
and your explanation has to be internally consistent.
Or, if, like in Star Trek, it's sufficiently vague, just ignore the concept of internal consistency.
What's your position? Oh right, that all Klingons use the same design philosophy. Not that you've explained what you think that philosophy IS.
As for whether Klingon ships sometimes look techno-organic... when's the last time you looked at a B'rel? Must have been a while...
also...
it doesn't have useless heavy arcy structures going nowhere that do nothing
How would you know whether they were useless? For example, the Scimitar's wings, we know they have a specific purpose. But, just because we don't know what a spike sticking out of the hull DOES, that doesn't mean it doesn't have one, merely that we don't know what it is.I don't see anything sticking out of the hull that obviously has NO purpose. for all we know the spikes could be part of the shield systems.
Except they do and always have? If they didn't then why doesn't every single Klingon house have radically different ships? Why were there always the same few ships no matter what house was using them?
If each house had their own designs then why didn't we see 24 unique Klingon ships? All 24 houses were present...and then there was reinforcements.
Even if there is some overlap there should have been more unique designs.
If each house had their own designs then why didn't we see 24 unique Klingon ships? All 24 houses were present...and then there was reinforcements.
Even if there is some overlap there should have been more unique designs.
Which I believe we saw a bit of in Discovery. But based on the Theory I provided, and was summarilly ignored in favor of... whatever... we're seeing a shift towards a more standardized design philosophy in the Empire.
Also... going by his logic... shouldn't ALL ships from EVERY species look similar to each other because MATH? I mean yea submarines on Earth all share similarities because that's what works based on real world science and math... but starships in Star Trek? Why don't the Klingons have saucer sections then? Why don't they have nacelles like the Federation? And same goes for the Romulans, Cardassians, BREEN...
Fact of the matter is we saw a fractured Empire that went down the path of stylized designs for a while. Its like comparing Samurai armor, which can include elements for a psychological impact on their opponents, to medieval Knight armor, which in many cases was just straight up armor and more practical. Both did the same job, but were designed differently and independently of each other.
Except they do and always have? If they didn't then why doesn't every single Klingon house have radically different ships? Why were there always the same few ships no matter what house was using them?
If each house had their own designs then why didn't we see 24 unique Klingon ships? All 24 houses were present...and then there was reinforcements.
Even if there is some overlap there should have been more unique designs.
Because the Klingon Empire seen from TOS to DS9 is unified. The houses are meaningless more or less. As of ENT and DSC the houses are split.
Clearly the winged, long necked, small headed ships were better than any of the others, so whichever house built the ships in ENT (specifically the D5 and Raptor) and the Qoj, Veqlargh, Qow/Tlhapqa', and bortaS bir/Qatlh from DSC went on to build the K’t’inga seen in DSCS2 and eventually the Vor'Cha and Negh'Var.
And the houses that built the other DSC ships (like the Qugh or DaSpu') quietly went on to do other things like designing the single hairstyle the KDF is allowed.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though. JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
Except they do and always have? If they didn't then why doesn't every single Klingon house have radically different ships? Why were there always the same few ships no matter what house was using them?
If each house had their own designs then why didn't we see 24 unique Klingon ships? All 24 houses were present...and then there was reinforcements.
Even if there is some overlap there should have been more unique designs.
Because the Klingon Empire seen from TOS to DS9 is unified. The houses are meaningless more or less. As of ENT and DSC the houses are split.
Clearly the winged, long necked, small headed ships were better than any of the others, so whichever house built the ships in ENT (specifically the D5 and Raptor) and the Qoj, Veqlargh, Qow/Tlhapqa', and bortaS bir/Qatlh from DSC went on to build the K’t’inga seen in DSCS2 and eventually the Vor'Cha and Negh'Var.
And the houses that built the other DSC ships (like the Qugh or DaSpu') quietly went on to do other things like designing the single hairstyle the KDF is allowed.
But my point is you're saying in Discovery that it seems like the houses would employ their own designed ships instead of a central Klingon design...but there are 24 houses and they all use the same ships...which means they employ central Klingon designs...which doesn't go to explain then why they're so drastically different.
Enterprise had similar designs...TOS had similar designs...TNG and beyond all had similar designs...but Discovery doesn't have a single ship that looks relatively Klingon. The BoP looks like a Goa'uld Glider...the Cleave looks like the Battleship Yamato...the little black one almost looks kinda like a Borg Probe with spikes on it.
While I'm not the biggest fan of some of the Discovery Fed designs...they still do follow conventional Starfleet design....where as the Klingon ships feel like they were pulled out of random fandoms.
But my point is you're saying in Discovery that it seems like the houses would employ their own designed ships instead of a central Klingon design...but there are 24 houses and they all use the same ships...
Why? What reason would all 24 houses have for making their own ships? Maybe only 8 houses make ships, maybe 15. There's nothing to say all 2 need to.
which means they employ central Klingon designs...which doesn't go to explain then why they're so drastically different.
What makes you say all the dSC ships are from the same house? The only ships identified to certain houses were the Sech and House Moki (I'm not going to bother looking the spelling of that one up) and the Qugh of House Kor.
The only ship that is certainly cross-house is the BoP.
Enterprise had similar designs...TOS had similar designs...TNG and beyond all had similar designs...but Discovery doesn't have a single ship that looks relatively Klingon. The BoP looks like a Goa'uld Glider...the Cleave looks like the Battleship Yamato...the little black one almost looks kinda like a Borg Probe with spikes on it.
No, that is incorrect. As I said above the Qoj, Veqlargh, Qow/Tlhapqa', and bortaS bir/Qatlh all look like the same designers who made the ships from ENT-DS9.
Now you may try say something like 'but the Qoj doesn't look like the K’t’inga.' and you'd be correct, it looks as much like the K’t’inga as the Negh'Var does which is to say, not a lot, but the Qoj, K’t’inga, and Negh'Var all share the same configuration which is all Klingon design philosophy can be boiled down to.
As for the ships deviating. All Starfleet ships have a lower engineering hull, neck, saucer, pylons and nacelles, except for all the ships that deviate there. The difference between the K’t’inga and the Jach is about the same as the difference between the Galaxy and the Defiant.
As for the DaSpu'? Ever seen the tugship from DS9? It has the same amount of screentime as the DaSpu', was that such a sticking point for Starfleet? Did it ruin DS9 forever? No, it was ignored because it's an outlier.
While I'm not the biggest fan of some of the Discovery Fed designs...they still do follow conventional Starfleet design....where as the Klingon ships feel like they were pulled out of random fandoms.
Again, why is this an issue? What reason would the different houses have to all make the same ships and what reason would a unified Empire later on have for allowing different factions of ships?
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though. JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
If you think Discovery's Klingon ships look like they fit in with Enterprise, TOS, TMP, and TNG Klingons...then you really need to have your eyes checked. They look NOTHING like the Klingon ships from every other era of show...nothing.
You keep saying these ships aren't uniform designs...but bring me no proof that they aren't. If houses were designing their own versions of ships....well you still haven't answered my question as to why there are 24 houses but none of them have their own unique ships...they're uniform if you have 24 houses that all use the same half dozen different designs.
If you think Discovery's Klingon ships look like they fit in with Enterprise, TOS, TMP, and TNG Klingons...then you really need to have your eyes checked. They look NOTHING like the Klingon ships from every other era of show...nothing.
Check your own first. I did not say all DSC ships look like ships of other eras. I said the four following ships (that's four) Qoj, Veqlargh, Qow/Tlhapqa', and bortaS bir/Qatlh look like the prevailing design ethos.
If you'd bothered to read the words and not just assume you knew what I was saying you'd notice I've drawn a distinction between those four and the other DSC ships.
You're also ignoring the DujHod, Rebel Transport, TNG transport, DS9 transport, this one from DS9 because you obviously think it wouldn't be noticed that other shows produced Klingon ships that did not fit the model.
Obviously the next stage is to find some minor detail about the Qoj, Veqlargh, Qow/Tlhapqa', or bortaS bir/Qatlh and claim that insignificant detail deviated significantly from this supposed golden rule you can't quite describe. To save you the trouble I'll do it or you.
'Blocky nacelles attached to wing shaped pylons, attached to a bulbous rear hull (usually flat but sometimes with a mission pod on top), attached to a long thin neck, attached to a head section that's larger than the neck but smaller than the hull.' Those four ships fit that description, the various transports do not.
Buuut... Buut nut green!! Correct and neither were the TOS D7s.
You keep saying these ships aren't uniform designs...but bring me no proof that they aren't. If houses were designing their own versions of ships....well you still haven't answered my question as to why there are 24 houses but none of them have their own unique ships...they're uniform if you have 24 houses that all use the same half dozen different designs.
You might want to rephrase that so it makes sense.
Do you think all 24 houses make ships? Do you think all 24 make different ships? Do you think all DSC ships are from one house or split between them? If you think it's any of them you might want to say why you think that because the only two ships you can prove were unique were the Sarcophagus and the BoP that had the House D'egor emblem on.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though. JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
BTW... the Sarco does have some elements that are "in line" with the design philosophy we see everywhere else. Long neck and a torpedo launcher with the deflector.
Now here's a thought...
Take the main body of a Sech, attach a Sarco neck and head, add nacelles...
Stylized D7?
Joking asside... I think we're getting a little heated over the design philosophy of the Klingons a bit.
So what if the Klingons went through a period of stylized, overly complicated designs?
Its getting to the point of saying that because reasons all Federation ships must, without fail, be in some variation of the Constitution configuration of saucer, secondary hull, and nacelles. Guess what? There's quite a few that violate that. And are ALLOWED to violate that. Are all Romulan ships supposed to look like a T'Varo or D'Deridex because that's what we've seen?
BTW... the Sarco does have some elements that are "in line" with the design philosophy we see everywhere else. Long neck and a torpedo launcher with the deflector.
Now here's a thought...
Take the main body of a Sech, attach a Sarco neck and head, add nacelles...
Stylized D7?
Joking asside... I think we're getting a little heated over the design philosophy of the Klingons a bit.
So what if the Klingons went through a period of stylized, overly complicated designs?
Its getting to the point of saying that because reasons all Federation ships must, without fail, be in some variation of the Constitution configuration of saucer, secondary hull, and nacelles. Guess what? There's quite a few that violate that. And are ALLOWED to violate that. Are all Romulan ships supposed to look like a T'Varo or D'Deridex because that's what we've seen?
There's also the fact the "design style" of the Klingon's could "House of Kahless" style that normally gets used by everyone as sign of unity and loyality but the as the klingons are disunified in DSC the ships used are designs of those houses with the largest shipyards.
Apart from the Cleave (the one with the blade), the frigate and the fighter the DSC designs have elements of the classic designs just looked thru a different lens.
Except that the Remans aren't a major power. They're subjugated by the Romulans. The only real Reman design we've seen in canon is the Scimitar. And she was more blocky than the BoPs.
Anyways... valid points raised. The Klingon Empire was not unified until the end of S1. Infighting may have caused some issues with ship design. If we assume that the Houses were fighting each other... some of the more well off houses may have started to produce ships that looked more stylized, kinda like a status symbol. "Look at what we can make. We're this powerful" sort of thing. But in time some rival houses would be able to make their own or even steal designs, and add their own details.
Remember that by the time of ST6, the Klingons had to sue for peace with the Federation because they lost Praxis. One moon that caused ecological damage to Qo'nos itself. One planet. Which may indicate that the Empire's economy is nowhere near that of the Federation.
If we apply that theory to the Fed-Klingon War... the overly complex designs we saw are a logistical nightmare for repair and refit in an interstellar war with another superpower. If it weren't for the cloak tech, the Federation may have stonewalled the Klingons even without recent war experience. Why? The Federation is an economic powerhouse and Starfleet ships are easier to repair and maintain. Thus... with all these things learned from the war... the Klingons have a shift in their designs towards more simplicity. Compared to the Sech, the D7 looks rather plain. BUT that would also mean easier to repair if there was a hull breach. Again... the difference between maintaining a German Tiger vs maintaining an American Sherman.
Comments
My character Tsin'xing
The Qoj, bortaS bir, Qaw', Veqlargh, Chargh, and Jach classes look so much better than anything ENT put out. Other than the D5 the ENT ships were just boring clones of the TNG ships. The only thing they had over the DSC ships above is they were green and grey and not the strange colours of the DSC ships.
Still, when they come to STO they'll have the option to change the hull material so I'll just stick my bortaS bir in the Type 3.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
Get the Forums Enhancement Extension!
My character Tsin'xing
WHO'S MATH?
Not every species uses the same system as humans.
In Wing Commander, the Kilrathi use Base 8. That is different from what humans use.
Also note that all the ships used as a comparision against the Discovery designs are actually simpler than the Discovery designs. Perhaps a more plausible solution is that after the Fed-Klingon War, L'Rell discovered that their current designs were not as easy to maintain in a prolonged engagement with a superpower that has a stronger economy like the Federation. Kinda like how in WW2 German tanks were overengineered and spent even pretty much just as much time in maintenance as they did in the field.
Solution: Simpler designs for easier maintenance. While their Discovery era designs were intimidating... they're also probably a little overengineered. Hence the introduction of the simpler but just as effective D7, which would start driving ship design for the next hundred years at least.
Some are from ENT, but some are from TNG....
My character Tsin'xing
A rather OBVIOUS hologram of a D7. A classic D7 like we saw in TOS.
However we still don't know the WHY. I provided a very plausible theory for why they are gonna switch from the Discovery designs to ships like the D7. Ease of maintenance. You're going from basically each house having their own shipyards to a standardized design for the entire fleet, similar to how Starfleet handles ship construction.
The current ships have a psychological impact, but due to their complexity, would most likely spend more time undergoing maintenance and repairs than their Fed equivelents. Most likely a key weakness recognized by L'Rell despite the fact that the Klingons were wiping the floor with the Federation due to the Cloak Tech. By using information gathered through fighting the Federation, these flaws were identified, and thus the first step in correcting these flaws is to design a simpler ship. Thus... D7 Battlecruiser K'Tinga Class.
When they were fighting each other, they didn't have to worry as much about downtime because the houses were all using the same designs that were overly complex. On the other hand Federation designs were simpler and easier to repair and maintain, thus allowing for them to be repaired and deployed faster than their Klingon counterparts. A clear weakness that would need to be addressed before the next conflict between the Federation and the Empire.
Think of it like World War 2 Tanks. Yea the German Tiger was a beast, but for every Tiger, there was somewhere around 5 Shermans at least. Why? Simpler design that was easier to mass produce.
#2 is a raptor approximately equal to the B'Rel in size. It annoyed Archer by shooting holes in his ship.
#3 yes, it's a shuttle. But it's a warp capable shuttle and uses a radically different look.
#4, yes it's a freighter, but again, radically different design.
Anyways, the point was that you specifically chose the ships you like and your choices are not a representative sample of Klingon designs.
My character Tsin'xing
As for whether Klingon ships sometimes look techno-organic... when's the last time you looked at a B'rel? Must have been a while...
also... How would you know whether they were useless? For example, the Scimitar's wings, we know they have a specific purpose. But, just because we don't know what a spike sticking out of the hull DOES, that doesn't mean it doesn't have one, merely that we don't know what it is.
My character Tsin'xing
You can point out all the examples of pre-2009 shows that prove his imaginary version wrong and they'll be ignored and you can point out when his 'criticisms' of post-2009 Trek is made up or non-canon and he'll continue to use them.
Mind you, even if CBS crawled inside his brain and produced 'Trek According to Patrickngo' as a new show he'd still complain because he still does that against things he's admitted were good points of post-2009 Trek.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
Get the Forums Enhancement Extension!
My character Tsin'xing
Except they do and always have? If they didn't then why doesn't every single Klingon house have radically different ships? Why were there always the same few ships no matter what house was using them?
If each house had their own designs then why didn't we see 24 unique Klingon ships? All 24 houses were present...and then there was reinforcements.
Even if there is some overlap there should have been more unique designs.
Which I believe we saw a bit of in Discovery. But based on the Theory I provided, and was summarilly ignored in favor of... whatever... we're seeing a shift towards a more standardized design philosophy in the Empire.
Also... going by his logic... shouldn't ALL ships from EVERY species look similar to each other because MATH? I mean yea submarines on Earth all share similarities because that's what works based on real world science and math... but starships in Star Trek? Why don't the Klingons have saucer sections then? Why don't they have nacelles like the Federation? And same goes for the Romulans, Cardassians, BREEN...
Fact of the matter is we saw a fractured Empire that went down the path of stylized designs for a while. Its like comparing Samurai armor, which can include elements for a psychological impact on their opponents, to medieval Knight armor, which in many cases was just straight up armor and more practical. Both did the same job, but were designed differently and independently of each other.
Because the Klingon Empire seen from TOS to DS9 is unified. The houses are meaningless more or less. As of ENT and DSC the houses are split.
Clearly the winged, long necked, small headed ships were better than any of the others, so whichever house built the ships in ENT (specifically the D5 and Raptor) and the Qoj, Veqlargh, Qow/Tlhapqa', and bortaS bir/Qatlh from DSC went on to build the K’t’inga seen in DSCS2 and eventually the Vor'Cha and Negh'Var.
And the houses that built the other DSC ships (like the Qugh or DaSpu') quietly went on to do other things like designing the single hairstyle the KDF is allowed.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
Get the Forums Enhancement Extension!
But my point is you're saying in Discovery that it seems like the houses would employ their own designed ships instead of a central Klingon design...but there are 24 houses and they all use the same ships...which means they employ central Klingon designs...which doesn't go to explain then why they're so drastically different.
Enterprise had similar designs...TOS had similar designs...TNG and beyond all had similar designs...but Discovery doesn't have a single ship that looks relatively Klingon. The BoP looks like a Goa'uld Glider...the Cleave looks like the Battleship Yamato...the little black one almost looks kinda like a Borg Probe with spikes on it.
While I'm not the biggest fan of some of the Discovery Fed designs...they still do follow conventional Starfleet design....where as the Klingon ships feel like they were pulled out of random fandoms.
Why? What reason would all 24 houses have for making their own ships? Maybe only 8 houses make ships, maybe 15. There's nothing to say all 2 need to.
What makes you say all the dSC ships are from the same house? The only ships identified to certain houses were the Sech and House Moki (I'm not going to bother looking the spelling of that one up) and the Qugh of House Kor.
The only ship that is certainly cross-house is the BoP.
No, that is incorrect. As I said above the Qoj, Veqlargh, Qow/Tlhapqa', and bortaS bir/Qatlh all look like the same designers who made the ships from ENT-DS9.
Now you may try say something like 'but the Qoj doesn't look like the K’t’inga.' and you'd be correct, it looks as much like the K’t’inga as the Negh'Var does which is to say, not a lot, but the Qoj, K’t’inga, and Negh'Var all share the same configuration which is all Klingon design philosophy can be boiled down to.
As for the ships deviating. All Starfleet ships have a lower engineering hull, neck, saucer, pylons and nacelles, except for all the ships that deviate there. The difference between the K’t’inga and the Jach is about the same as the difference between the Galaxy and the Defiant.
As for the DaSpu'? Ever seen the tugship from DS9? It has the same amount of screentime as the DaSpu', was that such a sticking point for Starfleet? Did it ruin DS9 forever? No, it was ignored because it's an outlier.
Again, why is this an issue? What reason would the different houses have to all make the same ships and what reason would a unified Empire later on have for allowing different factions of ships?
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
Get the Forums Enhancement Extension!
If you think Discovery's Klingon ships look like they fit in with Enterprise, TOS, TMP, and TNG Klingons...then you really need to have your eyes checked. They look NOTHING like the Klingon ships from every other era of show...nothing.
You keep saying these ships aren't uniform designs...but bring me no proof that they aren't. If houses were designing their own versions of ships....well you still haven't answered my question as to why there are 24 houses but none of them have their own unique ships...they're uniform if you have 24 houses that all use the same half dozen different designs.
Yes. I'm at least consistent.
Check your own first. I did not say all DSC ships look like ships of other eras. I said the four following ships (that's four) Qoj, Veqlargh, Qow/Tlhapqa', and bortaS bir/Qatlh look like the prevailing design ethos.
If you'd bothered to read the words and not just assume you knew what I was saying you'd notice I've drawn a distinction between those four and the other DSC ships.
You're also ignoring the DujHod, Rebel Transport, TNG transport, DS9 transport, this one from DS9 because you obviously think it wouldn't be noticed that other shows produced Klingon ships that did not fit the model.
Obviously the next stage is to find some minor detail about the Qoj, Veqlargh, Qow/Tlhapqa', or bortaS bir/Qatlh and claim that insignificant detail deviated significantly from this supposed golden rule you can't quite describe. To save you the trouble I'll do it or you.
'Blocky nacelles attached to wing shaped pylons, attached to a bulbous rear hull (usually flat but sometimes with a mission pod on top), attached to a long thin neck, attached to a head section that's larger than the neck but smaller than the hull.' Those four ships fit that description, the various transports do not.
Buuut... Buut nut green!! Correct and neither were the TOS D7s.
You might want to rephrase that so it makes sense.
Do you think all 24 houses make ships? Do you think all 24 make different ships? Do you think all DSC ships are from one house or split between them? If you think it's any of them you might want to say why you think that because the only two ships you can prove were unique were the Sarcophagus and the BoP that had the House D'egor emblem on.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
Get the Forums Enhancement Extension!
Now here's a thought...
Take the main body of a Sech, attach a Sarco neck and head, add nacelles...
Stylized D7?
Joking asside... I think we're getting a little heated over the design philosophy of the Klingons a bit.
So what if the Klingons went through a period of stylized, overly complicated designs?
Its getting to the point of saying that because reasons all Federation ships must, without fail, be in some variation of the Constitution configuration of saucer, secondary hull, and nacelles. Guess what? There's quite a few that violate that. And are ALLOWED to violate that. Are all Romulan ships supposed to look like a T'Varo or D'Deridex because that's what we've seen?
There's also the fact the "design style" of the Klingon's could "House of Kahless" style that normally gets used by everyone as sign of unity and loyality but the as the klingons are disunified in DSC the ships used are designs of those houses with the largest shipyards.
Apart from the Cleave (the one with the blade), the frigate and the fighter the DSC designs have elements of the classic designs just looked thru a different lens.
Anyways... valid points raised. The Klingon Empire was not unified until the end of S1. Infighting may have caused some issues with ship design. If we assume that the Houses were fighting each other... some of the more well off houses may have started to produce ships that looked more stylized, kinda like a status symbol. "Look at what we can make. We're this powerful" sort of thing. But in time some rival houses would be able to make their own or even steal designs, and add their own details.
Remember that by the time of ST6, the Klingons had to sue for peace with the Federation because they lost Praxis. One moon that caused ecological damage to Qo'nos itself. One planet. Which may indicate that the Empire's economy is nowhere near that of the Federation.
If we apply that theory to the Fed-Klingon War... the overly complex designs we saw are a logistical nightmare for repair and refit in an interstellar war with another superpower. If it weren't for the cloak tech, the Federation may have stonewalled the Klingons even without recent war experience. Why? The Federation is an economic powerhouse and Starfleet ships are easier to repair and maintain. Thus... with all these things learned from the war... the Klingons have a shift in their designs towards more simplicity. Compared to the Sech, the D7 looks rather plain. BUT that would also mean easier to repair if there was a hull breach. Again... the difference between maintaining a German Tiger vs maintaining an American Sherman.