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Wait...what? Crystalline entity update...?

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  • ruinthefunruinthefun Member Posts: 2,109 Arc User
    edited January 8
    As said, if this is the only place where such adaptability is required, people won't adapt. They will simply find the easiest way around the restrictions, and if it takes too long for the reward level, they will run other content instead.
    Isn't that adaptation, though? If people change their behavior to circumvent the problem, then they've adapted to it.
  • warpangelwarpangel Member Posts: 8,003 Arc User
    brian334 wrote: »
    It would require a three-fold strategy, one for each stage:

    1) Run out of blast radius
    2) Use torps/mines/kinetic powers
    3) Use energy weapons/powers
    4) Repeat

    Now you know there would be some joker parked at 10 km spamming torp spreads when the kinetic power is up, causing CSV type attacks to blast through the ships at close range while trying to get to him.
    The problem with this is that it would require people to care about the strategy rather then care about their overall DPS in the game as a whole. But people don't. At most, people will just stick with whatever energy build they have now, and just spend the torp/mine/kenetic phase sitting around doing nothing waiting for the "spam energy weapons" so they can do that to win. Its one of those "in theory" and "on paper" things that doesn't actually translate to in-game.

    In many ways its like asking for more complex Boff stories and the like. People care more about their DPS then they do any BOFF's possible story, and thus hate being forced to have any BOFF on their roster(see the Tovan situation)

    In some ways, I can see why Cryptic wouldn't bother making anything more complex or interesting, because that excuse "the player will just wait/avoid anything that isn't spamming weapons fire until they can win by spam".

    Personally I rate player adaptability a little higher than that. Not tons higher, but higher. It also depends on the overall situation. If 90% of the game situations can be defeated effectively by Energy weapon spam, then most people will build for Energy weapon spam and not bother changing for the remaining 10% - they'll just complete that 10% less efficiently.

    However, having multiple "Energy absorbing, invulnerable" phases pretty much guarantees that players will sit around doing nothing... because it's the only thing they can do.

    Having a reflect phase means you can use kinetic/physical weapons, you can use Sci/Exotic, you can use your energy but also need to worry about heals/resists/pacing. Having a "shatter damage spray" for Kinetic phase is iffy, since as mentioned, one guy can spam all the torps he likes and everyone in his arc will get splattered. Now you need to worry about the situation around you, your maneuverability, your defense, etc.

    Players at that point at least have a choice of responses, rather than forced inactivity/delay.

    As said, if this is the only place where such adaptability is required, people won't adapt. They will simply find the easiest way around the restrictions, and if it takes too long for the reward level, they will run other content instead.
    If there is a way around something, then it isn't really required.

    Players, like all humans, are highly adaptable. The thing is, if it's possible to get what you want easier somewhere else, then getting it somewhere else is the correct adaptation. It doesn't matter how complex tactical mission they create, if they don't put in a unique reward that requires players to play it.

    100% of the game rewards can be acquired through waiting and/or DPS spam missions. Everything else can simply be ignored as irrelevant.
    On the other hand, if you dumb everything down to "just energy spam, and wait through the various time gates that Cryptic puts in because it's easier than doing anything creative"... then eventually the 'other content' that players run will be in other games. Because STO will be mindlessly boring at that point.
    This is exactly what it already is.
  • markhawkmanmarkhawkman Member Posts: 33,175 Arc User
    warpangel wrote: »
    azrael605 wrote: »
    I remember back in season 5 when the conventional wisdom was that the CE was unbeatable and just don't bother trying. Now people whine cause they actually have to play the mission as intended.
    The devs outright told us that the reason for this was because 90% of the players who thought they knew what to do didn't.
    Which was actually very interesting, as opposed to the current version the devs spoonfeed the full solution to us in an announcement. Well, not that there's much of a "solution" needed to begin with, just shoot at it until it dies, the details are an optional curiosity at best.
    The actual methodology of killing it hasn't changed. the only real change is that it no longer regenerates.
    -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
    My character Tsin'xing
    Costume_marhawkman_Tsin%27xing_CC_Comic_Page_Blue_488916968.jpg
  • warpangelwarpangel Member Posts: 8,003 Arc User
    warpangel wrote: »
    azrael605 wrote: »
    I remember back in season 5 when the conventional wisdom was that the CE was unbeatable and just don't bother trying. Now people whine cause they actually have to play the mission as intended.
    The devs outright told us that the reason for this was because 90% of the players who thought they knew what to do didn't.
    Which was actually very interesting, as opposed to the current version the devs spoonfeed the full solution to us in an announcement. Well, not that there's much of a "solution" needed to begin with, just shoot at it until it dies, the details are an optional curiosity at best.
    The actual methodology of killing it hasn't changed. the only real change is that it no longer regenerates.
    Not being required to counter it's regeneration is a change of methodology in defeating it.
  • markhawkmanmarkhawkman Member Posts: 33,175 Arc User
    warpangel wrote: »
    warpangel wrote: »
    azrael605 wrote: »
    I remember back in season 5 when the conventional wisdom was that the CE was unbeatable and just don't bother trying. Now people whine cause they actually have to play the mission as intended.
    The devs outright told us that the reason for this was because 90% of the players who thought they knew what to do didn't.
    Which was actually very interesting, as opposed to the current version the devs spoonfeed the full solution to us in an announcement. Well, not that there's much of a "solution" needed to begin with, just shoot at it until it dies, the details are an optional curiosity at best.
    The actual methodology of killing it hasn't changed. the only real change is that it no longer regenerates.
    Not being required to counter it's regeneration is a change of methodology in defeating it.
    given that the "counter" to it's regeneration in the original version was "kill the shards before they hit you", it's not much of a change. There were no special abilities required, no fancy gimmicks, just "kill before it gets to you".
    -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
    My character Tsin'xing
    Costume_marhawkman_Tsin%27xing_CC_Comic_Page_Blue_488916968.jpg
  • warpangelwarpangel Member Posts: 8,003 Arc User
    warpangel wrote: »
    warpangel wrote: »
    azrael605 wrote: »
    I remember back in season 5 when the conventional wisdom was that the CE was unbeatable and just don't bother trying. Now people whine cause they actually have to play the mission as intended.
    The devs outright told us that the reason for this was because 90% of the players who thought they knew what to do didn't.
    Which was actually very interesting, as opposed to the current version the devs spoonfeed the full solution to us in an announcement. Well, not that there's much of a "solution" needed to begin with, just shoot at it until it dies, the details are an optional curiosity at best.
    The actual methodology of killing it hasn't changed. the only real change is that it no longer regenerates.
    Not being required to counter it's regeneration is a change of methodology in defeating it.
    given that the "counter" to it's regeneration in the original version was "kill the shards before they hit you", it's not much of a change. There were no special abilities required, no fancy gimmicks, just "kill before it gets to you".
    No, that was in fact not the correct counter. Breaking up the Large Framents was what caused the regeneration. The best strategy was to have a few players use Tractor Beam Repulsors to push the Large Fragments away without breaking them, while all attacks were directed to the Entity only, single-target.
  • markhawkmanmarkhawkman Member Posts: 33,175 Arc User
    warpangel wrote: »
    warpangel wrote: »
    warpangel wrote: »
    azrael605 wrote: »
    I remember back in season 5 when the conventional wisdom was that the CE was unbeatable and just don't bother trying. Now people whine cause they actually have to play the mission as intended.
    The devs outright told us that the reason for this was because 90% of the players who thought they knew what to do didn't.
    Which was actually very interesting, as opposed to the current version the devs spoonfeed the full solution to us in an announcement. Well, not that there's much of a "solution" needed to begin with, just shoot at it until it dies, the details are an optional curiosity at best.
    The actual methodology of killing it hasn't changed. the only real change is that it no longer regenerates.
    Not being required to counter it's regeneration is a change of methodology in defeating it.
    given that the "counter" to it's regeneration in the original version was "kill the shards before they hit you", it's not much of a change. There were no special abilities required, no fancy gimmicks, just "kill before it gets to you".
    No, that was in fact not the correct counter. Breaking up the Large Framents was what caused the regeneration. The best strategy was to have a few players use Tractor Beam Repulsors to push the Large Fragments away without breaking them, while all attacks were directed to the Entity only, single-target.
    IIRC even in the original the large fragments only became small fragments by ramming players, if they didn't then the entity never healed.
    -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
    My character Tsin'xing
    Costume_marhawkman_Tsin%27xing_CC_Comic_Page_Blue_488916968.jpg
  • xyquarzexyquarze Member Posts: 1,815 Arc User
    First of all, I haven't played CC outside of CC events in a long time, so I'll just extrapolate my feelings from the event version, please forgive if there are other differences:

    To me this version is more fun, despite there only being a timer added, just because it isn't park and shoot anymore, at least most of the time it won't do anything. Yes, you can still weather the blast, but it has become harder, so getting out may actually be an option. And I never found it interesting past the first time it happened whether it was possible to shoot it up during the first buildup because by now the times it wasn't done were very few and far between. Since WAI is obviously for the blast to happen, a change that achieves this, makes sense. Has it become complex? By no means. Has it become difficult? Neither. Is it great fun now? Not to me. Do I like timed waits? Not at all, but it is better if it makes sense story wise, and let's face it: it's not really that long here.

    But when we're talking "adapting": this very thread, as well as a similar for the event changes some time ago, as well as multiple similar things when other changes occured: many players don't want to. There is a change that makes the strategy I always employed less workable, but the first thing I do is complaining about the change, not adapting to it, wanting it to be reversed. I cannot really complain about this attitude myself because sometimes I am safely in said camp. E. g. I want my quick daily Borg RA back.

    As for more complex versions: I don't give large parts of the player base as much credit as others here do. I would love to have some more complex gameplay (let's be honest though, it'll always be based on pewpew), but how often have you experienced groups when something else than BFAW was asked - closing portals, picking up and delivering stuff, not getting enemies from A to B - where players were fighting infinitely respawning decoy mobs instead of furthering the objective? Apparently there's loads of players out there for whom TFOs are: get in, blast at everything until it is won (due to others actually going for the objectives), get reward. And in some cases they aren't even to blame that much, case in point: CC. Everything that was needed as a strategic approach has disappeared. Sometimes due to changes, sometimes just due to power creep. You'd have to make pure pewpew unworkeable for almost any content before that attitude changes, because on the front of power creep vs casual players, I think the battle is lost. And such a huge scale change would probably be detrimental to the number of people playing the game.
    My mother was an epohh and my father smelled of tulaberries
  • warpangelwarpangel Member Posts: 8,003 Arc User
    warpangel wrote: »
    warpangel wrote: »
    warpangel wrote: »
    azrael605 wrote: »
    I remember back in season 5 when the conventional wisdom was that the CE was unbeatable and just don't bother trying. Now people whine cause they actually have to play the mission as intended.
    The devs outright told us that the reason for this was because 90% of the players who thought they knew what to do didn't.
    Which was actually very interesting, as opposed to the current version the devs spoonfeed the full solution to us in an announcement. Well, not that there's much of a "solution" needed to begin with, just shoot at it until it dies, the details are an optional curiosity at best.
    The actual methodology of killing it hasn't changed. the only real change is that it no longer regenerates.
    Not being required to counter it's regeneration is a change of methodology in defeating it.
    given that the "counter" to it's regeneration in the original version was "kill the shards before they hit you", it's not much of a change. There were no special abilities required, no fancy gimmicks, just "kill before it gets to you".
    No, that was in fact not the correct counter. Breaking up the Large Framents was what caused the regeneration. The best strategy was to have a few players use Tractor Beam Repulsors to push the Large Fragments away without breaking them, while all attacks were directed to the Entity only, single-target.
    IIRC even in the original the large fragments only became small fragments by ramming players, if they didn't then the entity never healed.
    Small Fragments were always spawned whenever a Large Fragment was destroyed, regardless of cause.

    That's why the mission was practically impossible to pug. There would always be at least a few clueless people there shooting the fragments (with AoE or pets if not on purpose), healing the Entity to 100% in seconds.
  • reyan01reyan01 Member Posts: 12,075 Arc User
    Well, I for one welcome the changes.

    So far as I'm concerned it means that CCA becomes an actual TFO because frankly, in it's current form, it is little more than a very quick, easy and convienient way of obtaining marks/Dil for doing pretty much nothing.

    Those with a 'I am entitled to something for nothing' menality will have to stick to Admiralty and DOFFing I guess.
    3U3C0SJ.jpg

  • warpangelwarpangel Member Posts: 8,003 Arc User
    reyan01 wrote: »
    So far as I'm concerned it means that CCA becomes an actual TFO because frankly, in it's current form, it is little more than a very quick, easy and convienient way of obtaining marks/Dil for doing pretty much nothing.
    It's still just as easy in the event version. The only noticeable difference is a little mandatory waiting time. Well, at least there is no chance the Entity will be almost dead before the mission is even finished loading anymore.
  • midevilchaos#4670 midevilchaos Member Posts: 134 Arc User
    edited January 10
    I personally hate the changes. Unless there is an actual negative aspect to the TFO, changes are undesirable. The only one I could understand would be including a countdown of maybe 10 seconds, so that it allows all the players to get in.

    In fact, they should create an Elite version with those changes. Not modify the current Advanced one. Like that, it would please everyone.
  • reyan01reyan01 Member Posts: 12,075 Arc User
    edited January 11
    warpangel wrote: »
    reyan01 wrote: »
    So far as I'm concerned it means that CCA becomes an actual TFO because frankly, in it's current form, it is little more than a very quick, easy and convienient way of obtaining marks/Dil for doing pretty much nothing.
    It's still just as easy in the event version. The only noticeable difference is a little mandatory waiting time. Well, at least there is no chance the Entity will be almost dead before the mission is even finished loading anymore.

    It's not quite the same - from what I recall the Entity can't be damaged during it's 'charging' phase anymore, and the blast-wave it puts out is more potent than it used to be.
    3U3C0SJ.jpg

  • warpangelwarpangel Member Posts: 8,003 Arc User
    edited January 11
    reyan01 wrote: »
    warpangel wrote: »
    reyan01 wrote: »
    So far as I'm concerned it means that CCA becomes an actual TFO because frankly, in it's current form, it is little more than a very quick, easy and convienient way of obtaining marks/Dil for doing pretty much nothing.
    It's still just as easy in the event version. The only noticeable difference is a little mandatory waiting time. Well, at least there is no chance the Entity will be almost dead before the mission is even finished loading anymore.

    It's not quite the same - from what I recall the Entity can't be damaged during it's 'charging' phase anymore, and the blast-wave it puts out is more potent than it used to be.
    That it can't be damaged is just waiting time, and unless they've buffed the wave since the event, it still can't kill players most of the time.

    And even if they have, it's not like players dying means anything in this game.
  • nixbooxnixboox Member Posts: 505 Arc User
    warpangel wrote: »
    reyan01 wrote: »
    warpangel wrote: »
    reyan01 wrote: »
    So far as I'm concerned it means that CCA becomes an actual TFO because frankly, in it's current form, it is little more than a very quick, easy and convienient way of obtaining marks/Dil for doing pretty much nothing.
    It's still just as easy in the event version. The only noticeable difference is a little mandatory waiting time. Well, at least there is no chance the Entity will be almost dead before the mission is even finished loading anymore.

    It's not quite the same - from what I recall the Entity can't be damaged during it's 'charging' phase anymore, and the blast-wave it puts out is more potent than it used to be.
    That it can't be damaged is just waiting time, and unless they've buffed the wave since the event, it still can't kill players most of the time.

    And even if they have, it's not like players dying means anything in this game.

    It can kill...particularly when you're sitting at 11km but the game still hits you with the wave for no reason... Not that dying means anything in this game, of course...which is true...unless you're playing on a higher difficulty then you get hit with parts of your ship not working anymore. Actually, I think the system degradation should be universal for all the damage you'd get throughout the game and do away with "death" altogether. The ship should just become severely damaged and incapacitated instead of "respawn". Death is so last century anyway...

  • reyan01reyan01 Member Posts: 12,075 Arc User
    edited January 14
    warpangel wrote: »
    reyan01 wrote: »
    warpangel wrote: »
    reyan01 wrote: »
    So far as I'm concerned it means that CCA becomes an actual TFO because frankly, in it's current form, it is little more than a very quick, easy and convienient way of obtaining marks/Dil for doing pretty much nothing.
    It's still just as easy in the event version. The only noticeable difference is a little mandatory waiting time. Well, at least there is no chance the Entity will be almost dead before the mission is even finished loading anymore.

    It's not quite the same - from what I recall the Entity can't be damaged during it's 'charging' phase anymore, and the blast-wave it puts out is more potent than it used to be.
    That it can't be damaged is just waiting time, and unless they've buffed the wave since the event, it still can't kill players most of the time.

    And even if they have, it's not like players dying means anything in this game.

    I think the scenario now is that it can't be harmed during it's charging phase, but shooting at it anyway (which everyone does because they're too ingrained with the way this USED to be done) makes it put out a stronger blast.
    3U3C0SJ.jpg

  • warpangelwarpangel Member Posts: 8,003 Arc User
    reyan01 wrote: »
    warpangel wrote: »
    reyan01 wrote: »
    warpangel wrote: »
    reyan01 wrote: »
    So far as I'm concerned it means that CCA becomes an actual TFO because frankly, in it's current form, it is little more than a very quick, easy and convienient way of obtaining marks/Dil for doing pretty much nothing.
    It's still just as easy in the event version. The only noticeable difference is a little mandatory waiting time. Well, at least there is no chance the Entity will be almost dead before the mission is even finished loading anymore.

    It's not quite the same - from what I recall the Entity can't be damaged during it's 'charging' phase anymore, and the blast-wave it puts out is more potent than it used to be.
    That it can't be damaged is just waiting time, and unless they've buffed the wave since the event, it still can't kill players most of the time.

    And even if they have, it's not like players dying means anything in this game.

    I think the scenario now is that it can't be harmed during it's charging phase, but shooting at it anyway (which everyone does because they're too ingrained with the way this USED to be done) makes it put out a stronger blast.
    Yes. And/or too complacent to do anything but shoot everything regardless of what way anything is or was done.

    Personally, I stopped shooting at it during the charge-up after reading the event details. No poiint wasting buffs on an immune when you could cool them down for a stronger attack after it's vulnerable again. But your average STOer isn't used to reading instructions because nothing really requires it, so they just go in shoot things blind and complain when it doesn't work fast enough.

    However, the wave was always buffed by energy damage and the last time it was a threat to a decently-equipped player was in 2014 (then it was nerfed to the ground). If everyone shooting at it full blast when that was useful did not buff the wave to the point of killing you, the clueless brigade alone can't get even close. They don't have the DPS. Which is exactly what I found during the last event when this change was tested. I didn't have to dodge the wave or use an immunity, because it very rarely did lethal damage. If anything, it did less damage, probably because at least the better players who had the DPS to charge-up the wave, knew to stop shooting.

    So, unless they've significantly buffed the wave's base damage from the event version, to the point where it can kill you without DPS players shooting it full tilt the whole time, it's just as much a park-n-shoot as before, just with two pauses in the shooting.
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