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Romulan Ships from Discovery they could add in.

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  • starswordcstarswordc Member Posts: 10,636 Arc User
    edited December 2018
    rattler2 wrote: »
    It could be a production error, just like how apparently Starfleet always used the arrowhead symbol rather than unique symbols for all ships.
    Actually DSC has the right of it there: the "unique symbols for all ships" fanon is the production error. http://www.startrek.com/article/starfleet-insignia-explained

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    "Two ways to view the world, so similar at times / Two ways to rule the world, to justify their crimes / By Kings and Queens young men are sent to die in war / Their propaganda speaks those words been heard before"
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  • rattler2rattler2 Member Posts: 46,970 Arc User
    I brought up that very document, and it was brushed off as fanfiction by artan.
    66998372863950ee98cf7da9786e2ea9-db80k0m.png
    I can't take it anymore! Could everyone just chill out for two seconds before something CRAZY happens again?!
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  • artan42artan42 Member Posts: 9,961 Bug Hunter
    rattler2 wrote: »
    artan... why are you arguing against me when in a way I was actually AGREEING with you on the use of the Delta as fleetwide and not just aboard Enterprise? The document spells it out that Starfleet is SUPPOSED to be using the Delta for all personnel, and the differing insigia is an issue being addressed by said document. And then I pointed out the issue kept coming up later on, as depicted with the various ship patches and a screenshot from Enterprise of a Defiant crewmember. While all the various patches in that picture may not have all been seen on screen, the Defiant one most certainly was, so that detail is not fanfiction, it is canon.

    The question remains however, was the individual ship insignia just a holdover from a production error or was it turned into something else, at least in regards to assignment to Constitution class ships?

    So why are you calling me out when I'm actually on your side and just providing more material?

    Have you met me? I'll start an argument with myself if everybody else goes away.
    rattler2 wrote: »
    I brought up that very document, and it was brushed off as fanfiction by artan.

    Because it is. There's too many instances of the Delta being used for the individual emblems hypothesis to be true. But conversely there's also too many individual emblems (including the one ENT made for the Defiant) for the original intent of the memo to be true.

    There's explanations that can be used but none really pass Occam's razor.​​
    22762792376_ac7c992b7c_o.png
    Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
    JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.

    #TASforSTO


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  • rattler2rattler2 Member Posts: 46,970 Arc User
    WE cannot declare if something is fanfiction or not in regards to the people RUNNING the show.
    That document is basically Word of God from Justman himself, who actually spoke to Roddenberry HIMSELF regarding the subject. In short, this document has more weight than Roddenberry handwaving the different look of the Klingons between TOS and TMP as "they always looked like that". Why? IT IS DOCUMENTED.

    You start throwing around the "fanfiction" card like that... whats to stop you, or anyone else, from declaring something else that has been officially stated to be canon as nothing more than fanfiction? You're opening a can of worms here because its kinda like the debates on "What is Star Trek" between fans, especially those concerning Discovery or any other element that can cause arguments to escalate.

    Frankly... final verdict is that the individual ship badges in TOS are a production error that has persisted through to Enterprise. One that has technically been corrected with Discovery, seeing as how all Starfleet Personnel are wearing the delta now. The only legit case of individual ship badges is in the 22nd Century.
    66998372863950ee98cf7da9786e2ea9-db80k0m.png
    I can't take it anymore! Could everyone just chill out for two seconds before something CRAZY happens again?!
    The nut who actually ground out a Delta Pack, Temporal Pack, and Gamma Pack
    The resident forum voice of reason (I HAZ FORUM REP! YAY!)
  • artan42artan42 Member Posts: 9,961 Bug Hunter
    rattler2 wrote: »
    WE cannot declare if something is fanfiction or not in regards to the people RUNNING the show.

    However CBS can. Unless it's onscreen it's not canon, thus it's only one persons or a group of peoples conjecture.
    rattler2 wrote: »
    That document is basically Word of God from Justman himself, who actually spoke to Roddenberry HIMSELF regarding the subject. In short, this document has more weight than Roddenberry handwaving the different look of the Klingons between TOS and TMP as "they always looked like that". Why? IT IS DOCUMENTED.

    And? Both Justman and Roddenberry have had their own concepts that have not made it to screen and outright contradict whats onscreen. Should we disregard CBS' canon policy in favour of just believing anything anybody involved in the production of Trek?
    rattler2 wrote: »
    You start throwing around the "fanfiction" card like that... whats to stop you, or anyone else, from declaring something else that has been officially stated to be canon as nothing more than fanfiction? You're opening a can of worms here because its kinda like the debates on "What is Star Trek" between fans, especially those concerning Discovery or any other element that can cause arguments to escalate.

    Not really. I don't care if anybody listens to what I have to say about any part of Trek. In the end CBS is the only entity with a say. Not me.
    CBS have never added an addendum saying 'Only film and TV shows except what certain people say BtS (except Roddenberry when he says things like Earth is a nudists colony or Starfleet doesn't have ranks).'.

    An argument on 'What is Star Trek' can and should always be shut down with, 'what the IP holders, CBS, say is Star Trek' because that's the only answer.
    It's not, 'what Roddenberry says is Trek' because that excludes all the TOS films and anything post-TNG. It's not, 'what Abrams says is Trek' because he originally tried to make that mean only his films.
    It's not any producers, writers, showrunners, or directors, or Saint Roddenberry's. It's CBS'. Unless those producers, writers, showrunners, or directors put their thoughts into the show or a film then it's not canon and can be dismissed like any other fans opinion.
    rattler2 wrote: »
    Frankly... final verdict is that the individual ship badges in TOS are a production error that has persisted through to Enterprise. One that has technically been corrected with Discovery, seeing as how all Starfleet Personnel are wearing the delta now. The only legit case of individual ship badges is in the 22nd Century.

    Technically it was corrected with 09 and BEY when they showed both the Kelvin and Franklin used the Delta.​​
    22762792376_ac7c992b7c_o.png
    Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
    JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.

    #TASforSTO


    '...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
    'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
    'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
    '...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
    'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
    '...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek

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  • thunderfoot006thunderfoot006 Member Posts: 4,063 Arc User
    What Romulan ships? I just binge watched Season 1 of Discovery last weekend and I saw no Romulan ships. I saw some Klingon ships which could be mistaken by their design for Romulan ships. But these were specifically called Klingon ships in the show.

    I saw no warbirds or whatever the Star Empire was calling their ships back then in any of the Discovery episodes I watched back to back. Go back and rewatch the TOS Episode Balance of Terror That was supposed to be a Rommie state of the art, bleeding edge of technology ship. First time we got to see Mark Lenard as well. So a double treat.
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  • starswordcstarswordc Member Posts: 10,636 Arc User
    edited December 2018
    rattler2 wrote: »
    I brought up that very document, and it was brushed off as fanfiction by artan.

    Yeah, sorry, I saw that after I posted. :blush:

    But yeah, ENT just plain blew it, just like they blew it with the cloaking Romulan warbird and DS9 blew it with the Klingon-Cardassian Alliance suddenly not having cloaks even though they had them before. It's a continuity error, plain and simple.
    "Two ways to view the world, so similar at times / Two ways to rule the world, to justify their crimes / By Kings and Queens young men are sent to die in war / Their propaganda speaks those words been heard before"
    — Sabaton, "A Lifetime of War"
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    (Vaporware thanks to Foundry shutdown. Thanks a frakking bunch, Cryptic.)
  • rattler2rattler2 Member Posts: 46,970 Arc User
    I think in a book it was explained that the T'Varo cloak was a prototype, and if I remember correctly that ship was lost at some point after running into Enterprise.
    Things might have gotten cleared up during the Earth-Romulan War... if the show hadn't been canned.
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    I can't take it anymore! Could everyone just chill out for two seconds before something CRAZY happens again?!
    The nut who actually ground out a Delta Pack, Temporal Pack, and Gamma Pack
    The resident forum voice of reason (I HAZ FORUM REP! YAY!)
  • markhawkmanmarkhawkman Member Posts: 33,425 Arc User
    artan42 wrote: »
    rattler2 wrote: »
    WE cannot declare if something is fanfiction or not in regards to the people RUNNING the show.
    However CBS can. Unless it's onscreen it's not canon, thus it's only one persons or a group of peoples conjecture.
    rattler2 wrote: »
    That document is basically Word of God from Justman himself, who actually spoke to Roddenberry HIMSELF regarding the subject. In short, this document has more weight than Roddenberry handwaving the different look of the Klingons between TOS and TMP as "they always looked like that". Why? IT IS DOCUMENTED.
    And? Both Justman and Roddenberry have had their own concepts that have not made it to screen and outright contradict whats onscreen. Should we disregard CBS' canon policy in favour of just believing anything anybody involved in the production of Trek?
    What canon policy? CBS deleted the article on their website. Also no version of the now removed policy forbid creator commentary from being canon.

    Furthermore, there was never an in-universe explanation for WHY there were multiple logos. They were just there.
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  • claudiusdkclaudiusdk Member Posts: 444 Arc User
    edited December 2018
    They can claim something is intended, and it can be accepted as that if nothing contradicts that... but since something shown in one of the shows much later that contradict those claims, we have to go by whats shown in the show and not the claimed intent.
    It doesn't really matter what the intent of the production crew was if it never made it into the show.
    And what made it into the show was diffrent emblems on main universe/timeline TOS-era uniforms, and that is therefor canon.
    "Please, Captain, not in front of the Klingons."
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  • rattler2rattler2 Member Posts: 46,970 Arc User
    claudiusdk wrote: »
    They can claim something is intended, and it can be accepted as that if nothing contradicts that... but since something shown in one of the shows much later that contradict those claims, we have to go by whats shown in the show and not the claimed intent.
    It doesn't really matter what the intent of the production crew was if it never made it into the show.
    And what made it into the show was diffrent emblems on main universe/timeline TOS-era uniforms, and that is therefor canon.

    Which again gets contradicted by Discovery, which has ALL personnel wearing the Delta.
    66998372863950ee98cf7da9786e2ea9-db80k0m.png
    I can't take it anymore! Could everyone just chill out for two seconds before something CRAZY happens again?!
    The nut who actually ground out a Delta Pack, Temporal Pack, and Gamma Pack
    The resident forum voice of reason (I HAZ FORUM REP! YAY!)
  • claudiusdkclaudiusdk Member Posts: 444 Arc User
    Same goes for the DIS season 1 Klingon ships, nothing in the show seems to hint that those are Romulan ships. As far as we know, each Klingon house could have developed their own unique individual ship designs, which then changes over time as the Klingon Empire becomes united under its new chancellor, and everyone ends up flying the same newly designed ships.
    "Please, Captain, not in front of the Klingons."
    Spock to Kirk, as Kirk is about to hug him.
    Star Trek V: "The Final Frontier"
  • claudiusdkclaudiusdk Member Posts: 444 Arc User
    edited December 2018
    rattler2 wrote: »
    claudiusdk wrote: »
    They can claim something is intended, and it can be accepted as that if nothing contradicts that... but since something shown in one of the shows much later that contradict those claims, we have to go by whats shown in the show and not the claimed intent.
    It doesn't really matter what the intent of the production crew was if it never made it into the show.
    And what made it into the show was diffrent emblems on main universe/timeline TOS-era uniforms, and that is therefor canon.

    Which again gets contradicted by Discovery, which has ALL personnel wearing the Delta.

    DIS era uniforms aren't TOS era uniforms, nothing have been contradicted yet.

    Last episode of DIS season 1 took place in year 2257 (no idea yet what year season 2 happens in)
    First episode of TOS takes place in year 2265
    Still some years until the uniforms are gonna contradict anything.
    "Please, Captain, not in front of the Klingons."
    Spock to Kirk, as Kirk is about to hug him.
    Star Trek V: "The Final Frontier"
  • rattler2rattler2 Member Posts: 46,970 Arc User
    edited December 2018
    pike-1532118871537_1280w.jpg

    They are bringing in TOS variants of the Discovery uniform.
    Not only that... we're only 10 years before TOS... Having ALL personnel using the Delta, then switching to ship specific that quickly is a stretch.
    66998372863950ee98cf7da9786e2ea9-db80k0m.png
    I can't take it anymore! Could everyone just chill out for two seconds before something CRAZY happens again?!
    The nut who actually ground out a Delta Pack, Temporal Pack, and Gamma Pack
    The resident forum voice of reason (I HAZ FORUM REP! YAY!)
  • claudiusdkclaudiusdk Member Posts: 444 Arc User
    edited December 2018
    Yeah, I saw the trailer and love the changes.
    But again
    -Last episode of DIS season 1 took place in year 2257 (no idea yet what year season 2 happens in, but can only guess its directly after)
    -First episode of TOS takes place in year 2265
    Still some years until the uniforms are gonna contradict anything, if they ever will.
    "Please, Captain, not in front of the Klingons."
    Spock to Kirk, as Kirk is about to hug him.
    Star Trek V: "The Final Frontier"
  • rattler2rattler2 Member Posts: 46,970 Arc User
    Season 2 picks up immediately after Season 1 ends.
    66998372863950ee98cf7da9786e2ea9-db80k0m.png
    I can't take it anymore! Could everyone just chill out for two seconds before something CRAZY happens again?!
    The nut who actually ground out a Delta Pack, Temporal Pack, and Gamma Pack
    The resident forum voice of reason (I HAZ FORUM REP! YAY!)
  • dracounguisdracounguis Member Posts: 5,363 Arc User
    edited December 2018
    hey man... don't inflict Romulans with that DSC Klingon BoP. Not being in DSC is a good thing and means CBS hasn't screwed up Romulan canon yet! :D
    rattler2 wrote: »
    Have you considered that they aren't rolling everything out all at once?
    Yeah, but I'd put more stock in "They were forced to rush AoD to meet CBS's timetable and there wasn't a lot ready."
    Sometimes I think I play STO just to have something to complain about on the forums.
  • tmassxtmassx Member Posts: 713 Arc User
    edited December 2018
    I thought the Romulans didn't come around until Kirk's time. I believe Balance of Terror was the first episode with the Romulans, and Spock said it was the first time they were seen in 100 years or something like that.
    jonsills wrote: »
    They may have had friendly or semi-friendly relations with the Klingon Empire; in my opinion, if that sign indeed designates some sort of embassy or consulate, its placement in such a slumlike region, dominated by Orions rather than the Imperial Race, constitutes a clear insult by the Empire against the Romulan consular officers, indicating that they certainly wouldn't have been exchanging military technology at that point. (It would appear that there was at least some cross-pollination between the events of DSC:"Will You Take My Hand?" and TOS:"The Enterprise Incident", as the unnamed Commander's battle group consisted of either Klingon D7 cruisers or a homeworld-designed knockoff similar to the way the Tupolev Tu-144 was clearly a knockoff of the design of the Aerospatiale/BAC Concorde.)

    What we know, Romulans exchanged cloking technology for D7 ship. So no alliance. Probably T'Kuvma did it secretly, because the other Klingons have no idea of a cloaking device.

    In any case, it does not make sense to talk about the Star Trek canon because I find more things in it that contradict each other than the things that follow. It's done because Star Trek has more scriptwriters and directors and some of them do not know about the universe anything.

    Btw Tupolev Tu-144 is two months older than Concorde, so it can not be a copy. Developer of Concorde John Hutchinson said: "When you create a computer program to build a supersonic airplane with input values for 120 passengers and a speed of 2 to 2.4 mach, you will always get practically the same shape, no matter if the computer is Anglo-French or Russian. Virtually no alternative.
    logo_seperate21.png

  • lordsteve1lordsteve1 Member Posts: 3,454 Arc User
    claudiusdk wrote: »
    Same goes for the DIS season 1 Klingon ships, nothing in the show seems to hint that those are Romulan ships. As far as we know, each Klingon house could have developed their own unique individual ship designs, which then changes over time as the Klingon Empire becomes united under its new chancellor, and everyone ends up flying the same newly designed ships.

    This is probably exactly what they will be doing in S2.
    The first season was showing us the mess the Klingons are in with every house being different styles and using varied ships and costumes. Then L'rell unites them all under one banner eventually and holds them under her power effectively so they end up unified. I'm guessing that D7 styles ship we saw in the S2 trailer will be a new design that has been developed by cross-house cooperation.
    In other words we see the creation of the unified KDF fleet we are familiar with from TOS onwards.
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  • markhawkmanmarkhawkman Member Posts: 33,425 Arc User
    tmassx wrote: »
    In any case, it does not make sense to talk about the Star Trek canon because I find more things in it that contradict each other than the things that follow. It's done because Star Trek has more scriptwriters and directors and some of them do not know about the universe anything.
    I often joke that if people was Star Trek canon to make sense that they need to strike TOS from canon. :p
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  • crypticarmsmancrypticarmsman Member Posts: 3,182 Arc User
    rattler2 wrote: »
    artan42 wrote: »
    That's not a production error it's intentional. The TOS and pre-TOS uses of the Delta outweigh the use of individual emblems. I won't say the individual emblems are a production error, they clearly have some sort of significance but even TOS and TAS used the Delta for non-Enterprise ships.
    That's another common piece of fanfiction like the supposed TOS Klingon/Romulan alliance.

    insetpicwords.jpg
    Fanfiction?
    Pretty sure that document says otherwise. It was a recognized production error on the part of the costume department, pointed out by one of the production leads during the filming of an episode pointing out a mistake from a previous one. While we haven't really seen a lot of personnel from other ships, this was pointed out during the production of TOS. Most personnel we saw after that apparently used the "Starfleet Command" emblem rather than the Enterprise Delta. They were also for the most part Admirals or Commodores. We really never got to see lower ranked personnel that I remember.

    The production error was easily handwaved as them not being commissioned Officers, hence the mention of Merchant Marine. However the existance of other ship specific badges is still a bit of an issue.
    various-shipboard-starfleet-insignia-from-the-originals-series.png?dpr=2&auto=format%2Ccompress&w=472
    THis issue is also highlighted by the use of a non Enterprise Delta used for the crew of the USS Defiant in the Enterprise mirror episodes.
    latest?cb=20050428030348&path-prefix=en

    Yes its apparently supposed to be that Starfleet ALWAYS used the delta that is associated with the Enterprise, but... we still have these issues coming up.

    Yes, it was a 'production error' in that the Executive Producer (Gene Roddenberry) laid it out in a memo. HOWEVER it seems the costuming dept. never saw (or often ignored) said memo.

    There were episodes where all Starfleet officers were wearing the Delta symbol. One that come to mind is TOS (S1) - "Court Martial", however, later episodes still had crews with other ship emblem in later seasons:

    TOS (S2) - "The Omega Glory"
    TOS (S2) - "The Doomsday Machine"
    TOS (S3) - "The Tholian Web"

    So, yes, while technically it was a production error, it was an error they kept making and in the end I guess GR didn't find it a large enough issue to put his foot down on over the three season run.

    Also, given the ST: Series is still now 8 or so year pre-TOS, as we've seen in Star trek uniform standards change all the time. ;)
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  • rattler2rattler2 Member Posts: 46,970 Arc User
    Also, given the ST: Series is still now 8 or so year pre-TOS, as we've seen in Star trek uniform standards change all the time. ;)

    Two prime examples being the uniform changes in TNG and DS9.

    However I would LOVE to see them start using the TOS style Discovery uniforms like the ones aboard Enterprise. While I don't mind the current style... it would be easier to see the rank on the TOS configuration uniforms. Or at least start putting the rank stripes on the sleeves rather than the pip system on the badge itself.
    That's one thing I never really understood honestly.
    66998372863950ee98cf7da9786e2ea9-db80k0m.png
    I can't take it anymore! Could everyone just chill out for two seconds before something CRAZY happens again?!
    The nut who actually ground out a Delta Pack, Temporal Pack, and Gamma Pack
    The resident forum voice of reason (I HAZ FORUM REP! YAY!)
  • starswordcstarswordc Member Posts: 10,636 Arc User
    edited December 2018
    Yes, it was a 'production error' in that the Executive Producer (Gene Roddenberry) laid it out in a memo. HOWEVER it seems the costuming dept. never saw (or often ignored) said memo.

    There were episodes where all Starfleet officers were wearing the Delta symbol. One that come to mind is TOS (S1) - "Court Martial", however, later episodes still had crews with other ship emblem in later seasons:

    TOS (S2) - "The Omega Glory"
    This was the episode the note Rattler and I posted was meant to address. Bill Theiss mistakenly gave Captain Ron Tracey's crew a unique insignia instead of the delta; the note was sent to make sure he didn't make the mistake again, but it was too late in production to fix the problem for that episode.
    insettwoagain.jpg
    TOS (S2) - "The Doomsday Machine"
    Commodore Decker is a flag officer (NATO OF-7 grade, now rear admiral, lower half) and is wearing the branch insignia for command-level officers.
    insetweird.jpg
    TOS (S3) - "The Tholian Web"
    Crew members on the Defiant in "The Tholian Web" are, in fact, wearing the delta, as they are stationed on a starship. See the lower of these two images (the upper one is from "Court Martial" and depicts off-duty personnel from another starship than the Enterprise).
    insettwopics.jpg

    It was actually ENT that messed that one up in "In a Mirror, Darkly", so we have a double continuity error on their part: not only are the Defiant crew wearing the wrong branch insignia, they aren't even wearing the same insignia they had when the ship left the prime universe! Welcome to the idiocy that is Enterprise.
    "Two ways to view the world, so similar at times / Two ways to rule the world, to justify their crimes / By Kings and Queens young men are sent to die in war / Their propaganda speaks those words been heard before"
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  • dracounguisdracounguis Member Posts: 5,363 Arc User
    Wasn't one of the explanations about the differing shirt emblems was it was a contest between Connie crews? The winner got to be the new Starfleet Emblem. Always thought that sounded really cool. Having your whole organization's symbol be determined by what ship got the most accolades. :D
    Sometimes I think I play STO just to have something to complain about on the forums.
  • rattler2rattler2 Member Posts: 46,970 Arc User
    First I heard of that. Also kinda countered by Discovery using the Delta.
    66998372863950ee98cf7da9786e2ea9-db80k0m.png
    I can't take it anymore! Could everyone just chill out for two seconds before something CRAZY happens again?!
    The nut who actually ground out a Delta Pack, Temporal Pack, and Gamma Pack
    The resident forum voice of reason (I HAZ FORUM REP! YAY!)
  • thevampinatorthevampinator Member Posts: 404 Arc User
    edited December 2018
    Well uniform badges can easily be explained, as there is more then likely variants as well have seen all kinds of variants in the shows and movies. Got to assume not every starfleet officer uses the same style of badge as the other officer near him. Even though they are supposed to wear a certain badge some crews might want to make their own badges and this could happen as well. It maybe be later on they get stricter only allowing the arrowhead badge, but there was looser restrictions back in the timeline of tos. They got more serious as years progressed.
  • baddmoonrizinbaddmoonrizin Member Posts: 5,362 Community Moderator
    This isn't even attempting to talk about Romulan ships anymore. :unamused: /Thread
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