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What Happened (Why Am I Suddenly Exploding)?

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  • odinforever20000odinforever20000 Member Posts: 1,680 Arc User
    patrickngo wrote: »
    meimeitoo wrote: »
    lianthelia wrote: »
    Yup...and you got the people who're like "I do okay, so it must be you!"


    Such a statement -- whilst not entirely devoid of an 'in your face!' attitude -- is not wrong per se, though, in that one white raven proves the existence of white ravens; aka, if I can do it (with me not being a super-DPS player), then it's fair to say the game hasn't become totally undoable for everyone. And, indeed, I don't think it has, as I can do it. :) Doesn't mean no NPC dmg scaling took place, or that they didn't get a bit smarter, here and there; for instance, Tzenkethi flock together (especially when you force them to do so with your GW on them), reinforcing each other. So, still doesn't amount to you exploding instantly now, but merely means that you, the player, can no longer blindly pew-pew everywhere you go. And that, by the goddess, sometimes you even need to try and think outside just your 'smashing the spacebar' box. :)

    All-in-all, I say those changes were good, even though the scaling is a bit off in certain areas (especially NPC kinetic).

    Thing is, I don't think that scaling is 'off' at all-I kinda suspect the 35K through-shields-without-debuffing first is what they're supposed to be doing.

    Notably, I don't use grravy wells on Tzenkethi, because they DO reinforce each other and have since being introduced to the game.
    ... (sniped just cuz I wanted to respond to this)

    Yup! They do reinforce each-other..But..with enough de-buffing and the GW trait debuff too...That rule can go out the window :P
    But good rule of Thumb..Divide and conquer with Tzenkethi..


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  • seaofsorrowsseaofsorrows Member Posts: 6,915 Arc User
    edited December 2018
    lianthelia wrote: »
    Yup...and you got the people who're like "I do okay, so it must be you!"

    At this point, I don't think anyone denies that such things can happen. When we say 'I do ok,' we're not saying that the problem doesn't exist, we're saying we have built to compensate. The super torp hits can happen, and because of this, some of us have made some changes in our load outs to include some more defensive minded traits and tactics like the ones I outlined earlier in the thread. We're not saying the problem doesn't exist, we're saying that you're better off compensating for it then you are waiting for Cryptic to fix it.
    lordmerc22 wrote: »
    My engineer's tank ship which is an advanced obelisk almost never goes below 85% hull with high resists(65% lowest to almost 70% highest base or more across every resist and 163.8k hull - when I use my skills it goes further by far). All that while also have triggers to heal those near me helping team and pets. Its not that its dead - its just not popular, and you also need to heal, not just spam and tank. Unfortunately ships that are good for tanking are slow-to-turn whales like the mentioned one.

    It's not popular because that style is simply less effective then just about anything else you can do. I am not bashing on you in any way, you should play how you like and if that works for you then thats great. I do however, feel the need to point out that a tactically deficient ship like the Obelisk, stacked with all those resists is not ever going to be nearly as effective as the current method of 'offensive tanking.' Most people 'tank' by drawing threat and dealing damage to pull attention. They then use buffs and immunities to handle the incoming damage while others open up on the targets. What @salazarraze said was right on the money, tanking in this game done more through immunities, buffs, heals and placates. The style you're playing is just 'turtling up' which honestly.. isn't much help in team content. If you can't deal damage you need some other way to pull threat, otherwise things are not going to focus on you. To be brutally honest, you would be much more useful in team play by building a ship that can actually kill something rather then just hunkering down and preparing to take damage. Even if you're healing your team, that's great.. but you would simply be more help to them by killing targets and lessening the potential for taking damage to begin with. I am not saying this is anything you're doing wrong, it's just how STO is designed. Rather or not that's a flaw in the game.. that's another topic all together.
    hmm nobody mentioned about the ship?

    Let's say even my Vo'que Carrier has 50%+ resist all, it is still very fragile, no better than a 0% resist fed assault cruiser.

    I have had similar experience, which is why none of my builds ever focus on resists. I never use any armor consoles, they're just a waste in my opinion and not worth sacrificing precious console slots to use. On average, I run no higher then 20-30% resists max because there is simply no point in stacking any more. I use other methods to take damage and save my console slots for things that help me do more damage. Simply put, it doesn't matter what my resists are if my attacker is already dead. :wink:
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  • bendalekbendalek Member Posts: 1,781 Arc User
    The "problem" of the borked (borc'd?) damage scaling, I think is caused by players such as seaofsorrows. Now, I'm not "blaming" or "shaming", please believe I am not in any way wishing to offend the 'elite' players, quite the contrary, I respect most of them for their skill, and for their willingness to help others, but ... what Crytpic sees is certain players with resources to spare "working" the system, and overcoming these bugs.

    The issue arises from the fact that not everyone can match that level of skill or equipment, particularly not new or returning players. I defy ANYONE, to get a freshly minted lvl 65 character, with only mission reward gear, no lockbox, c-store, lobi or reputation traits, no fleet consoles, and no lockbox or c-store ships, nothing over Mk XII VR equipment, to run any elite (and even some advanced) TFO's without getting there cherry popped repeatedly and constantly. Particularly the "late game" enemies such as the Tzenkethi.

    As mentioned, the forums are full of players making threads similar to this one, but I've yet to see a single person post a video of them "doing HSE in a Miranda" as some claim.

    If you scale the game to be "challenging" to the top 1%, what happens to the other 99% ? Some may stick around long enough to "go pro or go home" as some seem to want, but the vast majority are gonna say "TRIBBLE this" and leave. And that doesn't help any of us.
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  • seaofsorrowsseaofsorrows Member Posts: 6,915 Arc User
    bendalek wrote: »
    The "problem" of the borked (borc'd?) damage scaling, I think is caused by players such as seaofsorrows. Now, I'm not "blaming" or "shaming", please believe I am not in any way wishing to offend the 'elite' players, quite the contrary, I respect most of them for their skill, and for their willingness to help others, but ... what Crytpic sees is certain players with resources to spare "working" the system, and overcoming these bugs.

    No offense taken, and I assure you that the respect is mutual.

    I understand what you're saying here, and honestly.. only Cryptic can tell us for sure, and I doubt they will. Personally, I feel like it's unintended and they are either unable or unwilling to fix it. The fact is that the vast majority of the player base does not have all epic gear, they do not have tons of lobi consoles and traits, they do not have billions of EC worth of ships bought for traits and gear, etc. To gear the combat toward these higher end players would be a mistake of epic proportions. Now, I am not saying for sure that this isn't what happened, but personally.. I do not believe that it is.
    I defy ANYONE, to get a freshly minted lvl 65 character, with only mission reward gear, no lockbox, c-store, lobi or reputation traits, no fleet consoles, and no lockbox or c-store ships, nothing over Mk XII VR equipment, to run any elite (and even some advanced) TFO's without getting there cherry popped repeatedly and constantly.

    For Elite, I agree completely.. and this is absolutely how it should be. Elite Content when introduced was described by Cryptic as the toughest content in the game and they said flat out that it requires high end gear, top of the line builds and team coordination to complete. Elite Content was never intended for anyone other then very well geared players.

    For Advanced.. I am going to be honest here.. I can't honestly say for sure. The fact is, I am too far removed from the 'new player' mindset to know for sure. As long as I have been playing, my characters are all highly geared, even my 'for fun' builds are probably still well outside the budget for the average player. I don't believe that Advanced is too hard for moderately geared players, but I honestly don't have the proper perspective to say for sure.
    As mentioned, the forums are full of players making threads similar to this one, but I've yet to see a single person post a video of them "doing HSE in a Miranda" as some claim.

    If someone is doing HSE in the T1 Miranda then they are doing it with 4 really great players that are carrying that person big time. If a team of players does HSE in T1 ships and post a video, then HSE would be in need of a revamp. I have never heard of anyone doing this map in T1 ships so I am not really sure why you would expect something like this to be posted.
    If you scale the game to be "challenging" to the top 1%, what happens to the other 99% ? Some may stick around long enough to "go pro or go home" as some seem to want, but the vast majority are gonna say "TRIBBLE this" and leave. And that doesn't help any of us.

    Absolutely agreed. I honestly don't believe this is what Cryptic intends.. it simply can't be. I believe that this is more about their unwillingness or inability to fix bugs then it is an intentional attempt to make advanced queues challenging for top players. The latter scenario from a game design perspective would be ridiculously stupid.
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  • coldnapalmcoldnapalm Member Posts: 6,971 Arc User
    bendalek wrote: »
    The "problem" of the borked (borc'd?) damage scaling, I think is caused by players such as seaofsorrows. Now, I'm not "blaming" or "shaming", please believe I am not in any way wishing to offend the 'elite' players, quite the contrary, I respect most of them for their skill, and for their willingness to help others, but ... what Crytpic sees is certain players with resources to spare "working" the system, and overcoming these bugs.

    The issue arises from the fact that not everyone can match that level of skill or equipment, particularly not new or returning players. I defy ANYONE, to get a freshly minted lvl 65 character, with only mission reward gear, no lockbox, c-store, lobi or reputation traits, no fleet consoles, and no lockbox or c-store ships, nothing over Mk XII VR equipment, to run any elite (and even some advanced) TFO's without getting there cherry popped repeatedly and constantly. Particularly the "late game" enemies such as the Tzenkethi.

    As mentioned, the forums are full of players making threads similar to this one, but I've yet to see a single person post a video of them "doing HSE in a Miranda" as some claim.

    If you scale the game to be "challenging" to the top 1%, what happens to the other 99% ? Some may stick around long enough to "go pro or go home" as some seem to want, but the vast majority are gonna say "TRIBBLE this" and leave. And that doesn't help any of us.

    Elite was NEVER meant to be done under the conditions you have laid out. Despite this, people can do elite under the conditions you have laid out. Yes they are the best players in this game...but normal players are not suppose to do that so I have no idea why you would even say that should be the case. And while HSE in all T1 one ships hasn't been a thing since DR, ISA in all T1 ships is certainly still a thing people do for fun. Yes, ADVANCED maps in all T1 ships. And this isn't something only the best of the best players do either.

    As for running bare bone builds...yea my AoY toon runs bare bone. Hell, not even VR gear. Just common gear mark XII (okay some of the gear is green to purple lower mark gears I got during level up...but they are basically at common mark XII level or less) and boff abilities from vendors. And it is good enough to do advanced content. No really. What you need to play this game is stupid low. Yeah it has problems with the tzen when they decide their torps should suddenly be 100% shield pen and do 20x normal damage...or the borg decide invis torp of doom is a good idea...or the terrans decide that 300k torp hits should happen instead of the usual 3-6k...or the WCB goes from doing 10k damage to 500k damage. But all of those are bugs. And I'll be honest, even the bare bone ship has some escapes when that happens.

    As for this idea that new players have nothing...a new player with 3 toon slots used can farm out a T6 ship in less than 1 month. Okay there is a start up time to set up those farming toons...so say another 1 month. Playing like 1 hour a day after getting things set up. That assumes they are a complete none spender. In 6 months, they can have gotten the battle cruiser pack, the temporal pack and one T6 ship of their choice. Which honestly give you the basis to build out elite ready ships for any faction.
  • valoreahvaloreah Member Posts: 9,743 Arc User
    bendalek wrote: »
    No,the Op is quite correct. The damage scaling, particularity for "kinetic" damage, such as Torpedo's and WCB's is just plain FUBAR. I minute you can be happily "tanking" the 8k torps, then suddenly the enemy is throwing 35k+ non-crit torps at you with 100% perfect shield penetration, and 0 sec cooldown. And no it is NOT debuf's causing the issue, is the bugged "scaling" calculations that Crytpic introduced with the mission journal revamp.

    And it seems completely "random" and arbitrary. I've had it happen numerous times for instance in BBS and SB1.

    ^ This. You can see this happen on a normal as well, not just advanced content. Unfortunately, this is how Cryptic develops "challenging" content.

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  • salazarrazesalazarraze Member Posts: 2,986 Arc User
    bendalek wrote: »
    I defy ANYONE, to get a freshly minted lvl 65 character, with only mission reward gear, no lockbox, c-store, lobi or reputation traits, no fleet consoles, and no lockbox or c-store ships, nothing over Mk XII VR equipment, to run any elite (and even some advanced) TFO's without getting there cherry popped repeatedly and constantly. Particularly the "late game" enemies such as the Tzenkethi.

    Well it is elite after all. It's not supposed to be easy to complete with drops and whatever you can randomly throw together. As far as advanced goes, it starts out as a bit of a slog when I first roll a character up to 50. It quickly gets easier as I unlock specs, rep traits and resources to buy fleet gear.
  • luckyyahooluckyyahoo Member Posts: 126 Arc User
    bendalek wrote: »
    No,the Op is quite correct. The damage scaling, particularity for "kinetic" damage, such as Torpedo's and WCB's is just plain FUBAR. I minute you can be happily "tanking" the 8k torps, then suddenly the enemy is throwing 35k+ non-crit torps at you with 100% perfect shield penetration, and 0 sec cooldown. And no it is NOT debuf's causing the issue, is the bugged "scaling" calculations that Crytpic introduced with the mission journal revamp.

    And it seems completely "random" and arbitrary. I've had it happen numerous times for instance in BBS and SB1.

    And don't even get me started on the 8k radius 100k+ WCB's that show up all to frequently even from exploding BoP's and fighter pets!

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  • luckyyahooluckyyahoo Member Posts: 126 Arc User
    patrickngo wrote: »
    meimeitoo wrote: »
    lianthelia wrote: »
    Yup...and you got the people who're like "I do okay, so it must be you!"


    Such a statement -- whilst not entirely devoid of an 'in your face!' attitude -- is not wrong per se, though, in that one white raven proves the existence of white ravens; aka, if I can do it (with me not being a super-DPS player), then it's fair to say the game hasn't become totally undoable for everyone. And, indeed, I don't think it has, as I can do it. :) Doesn't mean no NPC dmg scaling took place, or that they didn't get a bit smarter, here and there; for instance, Tzenkethi flock together (especially when you force them to do so with your GW on them), reinforcing each other. So, still doesn't amount to you exploding instantly now, but merely means that you, the player, can no longer blindly pew-pew everywhere you go. And that, by the goddess, sometimes you even need to try and think outside just your 'smashing the spacebar' box. :)

    All-in-all, I say those changes were good, even though the scaling is a bit off in certain areas (especially NPC kinetic).

    Thing is, I don't think that scaling is 'off' at all-I kinda suspect the 35K through-shields-without-debuffing first is what they're supposed to be doing.

    Notably, I don't use grravy wells on Tzenkethi, because they DO reinforce each other and have since being introduced to the game.

    what's different, is that they accurately home in on spawn points now, and get those through-shield-kills with area-of-effect attacks that hit for more than you can buff your toon using special gear. (notably, your weapons? don't have any option for completely ignoring shields and resists...but theirs do.)

    this is, I suspect, because they're being scaled for stacked immunities that require a lot of investment in time and purchased traits to obtain.

    as I said, what Borticus thinks "Challenge" is.

    No, raptors in cure normal scaled to 65 doing 30k torps shield pen is not normal. Neither are the terran in counterpoint. Neither are phasers doing 6k (3k) shield pen per hit. That is not normal, and it happens.


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  • solarwraithsolarwraith Member Posts: 184 Arc User
    Mob crits are a bit wonky right now, particularly with torps.
  • bendalekbendalek Member Posts: 1,781 Arc User
    bendalek wrote: »
    I defy ANYONE, to get a freshly minted lvl 65 character, with only mission reward gear, no lockbox, c-store, lobi or reputation traits, no fleet consoles, and no lockbox or c-store ships, nothing over Mk XII VR equipment, to run any elite (and even some advanced) TFO's without getting there cherry popped repeatedly and constantly. Particularly the "late game" enemies such as the Tzenkethi.

    Well it is elite after all. It's not supposed to be easy to complete with drops and whatever you can randomly throw together. As far as advanced goes, it starts out as a bit of a slog when I first roll a character up to 50. It quickly gets easier as I unlock specs, rep traits and resources to buy fleet gear.

    1) I didn't say lvl 50, I specifically said lvl 65, at which the level scaling is, without any doubt whatsoever borked.
    2) So ... in other words - spend months upon months "grinding" = Again NOT "new' player, or even alt, friendly in any way, and not the "easy mode" that so many seem to claim whenever one of these posts pops up (all to frequently) on the forums, and in countless discussions in the in-game chat. Gotcha
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  • salazarrazesalazarraze Member Posts: 2,986 Arc User
    bendalek wrote: »
    bendalek wrote: »
    I defy ANYONE, to get a freshly minted lvl 65 character, with only mission reward gear, no lockbox, c-store, lobi or reputation traits, no fleet consoles, and no lockbox or c-store ships, nothing over Mk XII VR equipment, to run any elite (and even some advanced) TFO's without getting there cherry popped repeatedly and constantly. Particularly the "late game" enemies such as the Tzenkethi.

    Well it is elite after all. It's not supposed to be easy to complete with drops and whatever you can randomly throw together. As far as advanced goes, it starts out as a bit of a slog when I first roll a character up to 50. It quickly gets easier as I unlock specs, rep traits and resources to buy fleet gear.

    1) I didn't say lvl 50, I specifically said lvl 65, at which the level scaling is, without any doubt whatsoever borked.
    2) So ... in other words - spend months upon months "grinding" = Again NOT "new' player, or even alt, friendly in any way, and not the "easy mode" that so many seem to claim whenever one of these posts pops up (all to frequently) on the forums, and in countless discussions in the in-game chat. Gotcha

    1) I didn't say you said level 50. Advanced becomes available at level 50 which is why I referred to 50 in my post.
    2) Grinding isn't easy or hard. It's a matter of desire and discipline.
  • tmassxtmassx Member Posts: 712 Arc User
    Perhaps you could try a different playstyle than fly in the middle of the mob, BFAW everything (and aggro everything) and rely on the fact that high resistance of mighty traits and energy refrequencer will save you.
    But you have a point, NPCs sometimes do a insane torp spread, today I was on Dranuur gauntlet advanced (via random queue), and players were unable to play , because Heralds were constantly sending transphasic torp spreads (with some disable abilities).
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