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Yet Another Idea on How to Eliminate the STO Trinity

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  • seaofsorrowsseaofsorrows Member Posts: 10,918 Arc User
    meimeitoo wrote: »
    The solution to eliminating the problem is to eliminate one's stubborn resistance to the Trinity, and actually play as a TEAM. Tune, Peter, and Sea have shown, in their awesome HSE run, that the synergy of the three classes can work miracles.

    I don't remember Sea being with us in that trinity HSE. :D Not saying that he's a bad player (cause obviously he's not), but if we're talking about the same HSE run, our team composition was different.

    Yeah, that wasn't me, but thanks. I am definitely not someone you want on a 2 or 3 man HSE run unless you really like to fail. :smiley:

    As for the topic.. I'll say the same thing I say every time someone proposes creating equlibrium through finding the 'best' and neutering it into the ground.

    Nerfing things does not create parity. It never has, it never will.

    If your goal is to make it so other options are used more, you don't get there by taking the most desirable option and making it no longer desirable. Nerfing tactical officers will have 1 of 2 effects:

    1. The class will be worse, but still better then the other two. This does nothing but upset players and does nothing to balance the classes. This is the classic cryptic 'half measure.'
    2. The class gets nerfed into oblivion making Science or Engineer the new 'greatest.' Now everyone just plays that.. the problem still exists you just swap Tactical Officer with Engineer in the pecking order. Again.. no one is happy.

    The way you create parity is equalization of powers. They did that a little bit when they gave a few engineering powers like Miraculous Repairs a buff, but it's still not quite enough. Engineers should be able to over ride power caps, increase firing cycles, re route power for a quick burst of damage.. there are plenty of things that could be added to Engineer to give them a damage boost to bring them up to the level of the Tactical Officer. The divide is not even that great, people make it sound like Tac's rule and Engineers suck and that's simply not true. Engineers aren't being totally outclassed they're just a little behind the curve in space.

    They're fine on the ground and Science Officers are also in a pretty good place. Things aren't so skewed that you need to start nefing things. This game needs more nerfs like it needs more lag.
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  • where2r1where2r1 Member Posts: 6,054 Arc User
    Why did this idea start? Removing classes in this game.
    "Spend your life doing strange things with weird people." -- UNK

    “Tell me and I forget. Teach me and I remember. Involve me and I learn.” -- Benjamin Franklin
  • peterconnorfirstpeterconnorfirst Member Posts: 6,225 Arc User
    edited September 2018
    meimeitoo wrote: »
    The solution to eliminating the problem is to eliminate one's stubborn resistance to the Trinity, and actually play as a TEAM. Tune, Peter, and Sea have shown, in their awesome HSE run, that the synergy of the three classes can work miracles.

    I don't remember Sea being with us in that trinity HSE. :D Not saying that he's a bad player (cause obviously he's not), but if we're talking about the same HSE run, our team composition was different.

    Yeah, that wasn't me, but thanks. I am definitely not someone you want on a 2 or 3 man HSE run unless you really like to fail. :smiley:

    As for the topic.. I'll say the same thing I say every time someone proposes creating equlibrium through finding the 'best' and neutering it into the ground.

    Nerfing things does not create parity. It never has, it never will.

    If your goal is to make it so other options are used more, you don't get there by taking the most desirable option and making it no longer desirable. Nerfing tactical officers will have 1 of 2 effects:

    1. The class will be worse, but still better then the other two. This does nothing but upset players and does nothing to balance the classes. This is the classic cryptic 'half measure.'
    2. The class gets nerfed into oblivion making Science or Engineer the new 'greatest.' Now everyone just plays that.. the problem still exists you just swap Tactical Officer with Engineer in the pecking order. Again.. no one is happy.

    The way you create parity is equalization of powers. They did that a little bit when they gave a few engineering powers like Miraculous Repairs a buff, but it's still not quite enough. Engineers should be able to over ride power caps, increase firing cycles, re route power for a quick burst of damage.. there are plenty of things that could be added to Engineer to give them a damage boost to bring them up to the level of the Tactical Officer. The divide is not even that great, people make it sound like Tac's rule and Engineers suck and that's simply not true. Engineers aren't being totally outclassed they're just a little behind the curve in space.

    They're fine on the ground and Science Officers are also in a pretty good place. Things aren't so skewed that you need to start nefing things. This game needs more nerfs like it needs more lag.

    Aww, I think I have to disagree for a change. But only with the first off topic part not the well elaborated on topic one. :)
    I’m a 100% certain we could have done the trinity run of HSE with you in team as well Sea. Mandatory are really just 200k team DPS and some discipline where one has to balance how aggressively a team approaches the hive compared to how much aggro a team gets as result.
    As for two men I’m currently trying it with Kyle. Of course it would work with you too. Think you get 100k straight there on the Vengeance. Gravity well feels needed as well as the match is quickly over when the spheres outflank us. It is nothing that two gravity wells placed in coordination couldn’t fix. Tanking gets laughably easy for me there when my team goes for it and since it would just be you and me it should be the easiest job in game. :#
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  • peterconnorfirstpeterconnorfirst Member Posts: 6,225 Arc User
    edited September 2018
    Sadly I don’t have much experience with other mmorpg so please allow me for a simple question here guys:

    Is it considered wrong elsewhere as well that the dmg dealing class deals, well, most of the damage or is this just the case in Star Trek Online?

    As things are now we have DPS records of eng/sci toons of around 450k and of tacs of around 550k in ISA.

    Is this too extreme or too much of an inbalance?
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    felisean wrote: »
    teamwork to reach a goal is awesome and highly appreciated
  • mirrorchaosmirrorchaos Member Posts: 9,844 Arc User
    meimeitoo wrote: »
    The solution to eliminating the problem is to eliminate one's stubborn resistance to the Trinity, and actually play as a TEAM. Tune, Peter, and Sea have shown, in their awesome HSE run, that the synergy of the three classes can work miracles.

    assuming sci and eng can get anywhere near their objectives by the time the tac player is done with them? perhaps.

    the parsers doesn't tell a lot by itself. i mean how do i know these tests weren't just setup for the benefit of this thread? how do the other players know if the top dps'er hasn't got even better kit than that waiting to be used that can demolish everything inside of a few seconds at most?

    All i am saying is that the parser results don't prove much by themselves. tactical players can easily run rings around the other two classes, but i have seen the capability of a good sci player before. they can be as destructive, but they rely on dots and aoes for the most part, that means grabbing cooldowns at the right moment which put them behind the dps players who run beams or cannons, they have a constate rate with barely any downtime, science players have to wait between usage of powers so they will never be on the same level.

    engineers are the worst of the three, i mean on ground they can be very useful but in space they don't have any signifcant powers compared to the others.

    What this game needs is more lengthy downtimes between tactical abilities to force the tactical players to rely on others between usage of powers, in additional all tactical players draw instant threat generation for a moderately high amount so they are always picked on first. damage potential of weapons needs to be pegged back a little so tactical players can't have it their own way and they can't have any defensive abilities which includes healing.

    Science players can focus more on their capabilities as well with less than moderate threat generation.

    Engineers need better ship healing abilities so they can be more useful than they are, without using powers they draw some threat by default but when they use powers to help others? they should draw the highest threat until tactical players draw the threat back by attacking those targets. so tactical players can not heal, science players can self heal only but only to a basic amount, the engineers are there to provide those healing facilities.

    this way it forces all three to work together.
    T6 Miranda Hero Ship FTW.
    Been around since Dec 2010 on STO and bought LTS in Apr 2013 for STO.
  • lordsteve1lordsteve1 Member Posts: 3,492 Arc User
    If I might point something though, on ground the opposite is the case. Tactical layers on the ground are limited to direct damage and a selection of team buffs mostly. But engineers and science players have a huge arsenal of AOE attacks and fabrications that can severely dominate the battlefield and easily outpace tac players in terms of damage potential.
    Those simulated attacks on Draunur colony have shown me that often a sci player can eliminate a whole wave before the tac has a chance to own up. So on ground tactical is the worst of the bunch in my experience.

    Everyone concerned with space performance needs to remember that this game includes ground content as well, not everything is about APA.
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  • peterconnorfirstpeterconnorfirst Member Posts: 6,225 Arc User
    edited September 2018
    Nanny runs, that's how they get such huge figures, plus general power creep.
    What a paradox condition in itself considering that non DPS centric, dedicated support roles from science characters make these absurd numbers for tacs (as well as the other careers) possible in the first place, isn’t it? :D
    Better to dismiss this as special circumstances “Nanny Run” than to understand that those extreme values produced there indicate a much smaler difference between tac and other careers in average play reality.
    I think it is unique to STO because there is absolutely no point in STO for various abilities unless PvPing, e.g. Subnuc. In ESO for example, if you take 5 DDs into a vet dungeon then don't expect to finish. Without the healer you're all going to die, without the tank you're all going to die. In STO all they do to make bosses tougher is to multiply their HP by 50 or more, subnucing an FBP off a target will help only for a second or two and do nothing to lower it's health.
    Well yea, I thought so. And my question was also more of a rhetoric nature. As elaborated earlier the game would need to be two or three times as hard as it is now to force players into trinity approaches. I could continue in game that way as my social structure there would permit me to include or exclude players from my teams at any time as it suits me (even though I would like that at all).
    The question is just would the others want that and there are like half a dozen forum post around here every single day indicating that the community could not handle any difficulty increase.
    Again, as things are now, we are free to choose how we play and are not forced into anything. Nevertheless should we really feed of this freedom as in demanding to make the three classes we have completely the same now? And that just because the average joe in game cannot comprehend beyond DMG dealing and rather dismisses everything else with the term “nanny” instead of understanding and embracing how it works? :)
    Post edited by peterconnorfirst on
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  • warpangelwarpangel Member Posts: 9,427 Arc User
    Sadly I don’t have much experience with other mmorpg so please allow me for a simple question here guys:

    Is it considered wrong elsewhere as well that the dmg dealing class deals, well, most of the damage or is this just the case in Star Trek Online?
    It's just STO. The difficulty level is such that the damage dealing class is the only one that's actually necessary. You can build an entire team for primarily damage and still survive perfectly fine. So naturally, people complain the other classes can't do that as well.

    In harder games, tanks and healers are very much desireable, because a team with nothing but DPS would get wiped as soon as a boss shows up, if not earlier.
  • peterconnorfirstpeterconnorfirst Member Posts: 6,225 Arc User
    warpangel wrote: »
    Sadly I don’t have much experience with other mmorpg so please allow me for a simple question here guys:

    Is it considered wrong elsewhere as well that the dmg dealing class deals, well, most of the damage or is this just the case in Star Trek Online?
    It's just STO. The difficulty level is such that the damage dealing class is the only one that's actually necessary. You can build an entire team for primarily damage and still survive perfectly fine. So naturally, people complain the other classes can't do that as well.

    In harder games, tanks and healers are very much desireable, because a team with nothing but DPS would get wiped as soon as a boss shows up, if not earlier.

    Yea I can imagine, thanks warpangle. :)
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    felisean wrote: »
    teamwork to reach a goal is awesome and highly appreciated
  • tunebreakertunebreaker Member Posts: 1,222 Arc User
    I don't simply get ppl in threads like these. You claim that tac is overperforming and it's especially a serious problem because there's no reason to play other roles other than pure DPS dealer.

    Ok, fair enough, but then I ask have you ever thought about elite queues and tried those? Cause there are like max 100 people in game, probably even less, who can simply DPS their way through something like HSE, without needing a tank or a healer.
    "Yeah, Gruber, don't be silly, I wasn't talking about elites cause so few ppl are playing those - I'm not one of them".
    Well, then I ask *why* don't you play elites and get "Elites are too hard for me, I'm just a casual" as an answer.

    It really is like punching yourself in the face and then wondering why your face hurts.
  • mirrorchaosmirrorchaos Member Posts: 9,844 Arc User
    edited September 2018
    warpangel wrote: »
    Sadly I don’t have much experience with other mmorpg so please allow me for a simple question here guys:

    Is it considered wrong elsewhere as well that the dmg dealing class deals, well, most of the damage or is this just the case in Star Trek Online?
    It's just STO. The difficulty level is such that the damage dealing class is the only one that's actually necessary. You can build an entire team for primarily damage and still survive perfectly fine. So naturally, people complain the other classes can't do that as well.

    In harder games, tanks and healers are very much desireable, because a team with nothing but DPS would get wiped as soon as a boss shows up, if not earlier.

    have you ran pure science or pure engineering groups and measured their effectiveness compared to tactical?
    I don't simply get ppl in threads like these. You claim that tac is overperforming and it's especially a serious problem because there's no reason to play other roles other than pure DPS dealer.

    Ok, fair enough, but then I ask have you ever thought about elite queues and tried those? Cause there are like max 100 people in game, probably even less, who can simply DPS their way through something like HSE, without needing a tank or a healer.
    "Yeah, Gruber, don't be silly, I wasn't talking about elites cause so few ppl are playing those - I'm not one of them".
    Well, then I ask *why* don't you play elites and get "Elites are too hard for me, I'm just a casual" as an answer.

    It really is like punching yourself in the face and then wondering why your face hurts.

    why would you punch yourself in the face for? in any event, you already know it is an issue like a lot of others here. DPS can smoke anything out there and a team of 100k+ dps'ers (each) can level anything without issue, i doubt a team of engineering captains with star cruisers can make that claim.
    T6 Miranda Hero Ship FTW.
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  • tunebreakertunebreaker Member Posts: 1,222 Arc User

    why would you punch yourself in the face for? in any event, you already know it is an issue like a lot of others here. DPS can smoke anything out there and a team of 100k+ dps'ers (each) can level anything without issue, i doubt a team of engineering captains with star cruisers can make that claim.

    First of all, show me how a team of 100k-ers is a regular occurrence. I'm a 100k+ DPSer (a science captain, mind you), and runs where everyone do 100k or more are pretty rare. Yes, of course teams than can just DPS themselves through *everything* exist, without having to worry about anything else cause enemies melt so quickly, but those are in no way a common sight.

    And yes, there are plenty of engineers who can do 100k or more. And there are also plenty of tactical captains who have trouble doing 10k. I'm fully aware of the issue and I agree tacs do have easier time getting higher numbers, but again, what's happening here, in this thread, is SERIOUS overamplification of it.

    have you ran pure science or pure engineering groups and measured their effectiveness compared to tactical?

    I'm not warpangel, but here are 3 videos of various elite maps, completed without any tactical captains present.
    Hive Onslaught
    Storming the Spire
    The Herald Sphere

    We did just fine and in no way were we complaining that "damn, it would've been *soooo* much easier if we had a tac captain present."
  • where2r1where2r1 Member Posts: 6,054 Arc User
    where2r1 wrote: »
    Why did this idea start? Removing classes in this game.

    So, the general is: people don't want to work in teams any more? That is why they are removing classes in this game?
    "Spend your life doing strange things with weird people." -- UNK

    “Tell me and I forget. Teach me and I remember. Involve me and I learn.” -- Benjamin Franklin
  • ltminnsltminns Member Posts: 12,569 Arc User
    edited September 2018
    This is the OPs idea, nothing from official sources.

    You know you'd better not end up losing this conversation with yourself. :)
    'But to be logical is not to be right', and 'nothing' on God's earth could ever 'make it' right!'
    Judge Dan Haywood
    'As l speak now, the words are forming in my head.
    l don't know.
    l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
    That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
    Lt. Philip J. Minns
  • dracounguisdracounguis Member Posts: 5,358 Arc User
    edited September 2018
    Yet Another Idea on How to Eliminate the STO Trinity

    To get rid of it, we'd have to (really) have it first. ;)

    The only real difference between professions now is 2-3 powers.
    If those are too unbalancing, those can be fixed; no need to change everything.
  • nimbullnimbull Member Posts: 1,564 Arc User
    Maybe eliminate all three classes and move the abilities in to the spec tree so the deeper you go in to tac the closer you get to APA and so forth. That way you can't fill out the exotic effectively to be better then Sci at it?
    Green people don't have to be.... little.
  • where2r1where2r1 Member Posts: 6,054 Arc User
    I am talking to myself....it is my usual modus operandi.
    "Spend your life doing strange things with weird people." -- UNK

    “Tell me and I forget. Teach me and I remember. Involve me and I learn.” -- Benjamin Franklin
  • peterconnorfirstpeterconnorfirst Member Posts: 6,225 Arc User

    why would you punch yourself in the face for? in any event, you already know it is an issue like a lot of others here. DPS can smoke anything out there and a team of 100k+ dps'ers (each) can level anything without issue, i doubt a team of engineering captains with star cruisers can make that claim.

    First of all, show me how a team of 100k-ers is a regular occurrence. I'm a 100k+ DPSer (a science captain, mind you), and runs where everyone do 100k or more are pretty rare. Yes, of course teams than can just DPS themselves through *everything* exist, without having to worry about anything else cause enemies melt so quickly, but those are in no way a common sight.

    And yes, there are plenty of engineers who can do 100k or more. And there are also plenty of tactical captains who have trouble doing 10k. I'm fully aware of the issue and I agree tacs do have easier time getting higher numbers, but again, what's happening here, in this thread, is SERIOUS overamplification of it.

    have you ran pure science or pure engineering groups and measured their effectiveness compared to tactical?

    I'm not warpangel, but here are 3 videos of various elite maps, completed without any tactical captains present.
    Hive Onslaught
    Storming the Spire
    The Herald Sphere

    We did just fine and in no way were we complaining that "damn, it would've been *soooo* much easier if we had a tac captain present."

    Magnificent videos :)
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    teamwork to reach a goal is awesome and highly appreciated
  • mirrorchaosmirrorchaos Member Posts: 9,844 Arc User

    why would you punch yourself in the face for? in any event, you already know it is an issue like a lot of others here. DPS can smoke anything out there and a team of 100k+ dps'ers (each) can level anything without issue, i doubt a team of engineering captains with star cruisers can make that claim.

    First of all, show me how a team of 100k-ers is a regular occurrence. I'm a 100k+ DPSer (a science captain, mind you), and runs where everyone do 100k or more are pretty rare. Yes, of course teams than can just DPS themselves through *everything* exist, without having to worry about anything else cause enemies melt so quickly, but those are in no way a common sight.

    And yes, there are plenty of engineers who can do 100k or more. And there are also plenty of tactical captains who have trouble doing 10k. I'm fully aware of the issue and I agree tacs do have easier time getting higher numbers, but again, what's happening here, in this thread, is SERIOUS overamplification of it.

    Answering a question with a question gets no closer to an answer, how about i ask again and you provide an answer this time? at least you quoted the question for me below.
    have you ran pure science or pure engineering groups and measured their effectiveness compared to tactical?

    I'm not warpangel, but here are 3 videos of various elite maps, completed without any tactical captains present.
    Hive Onslaught
    Storming the Spire
    The Herald Sphere

    We did just fine and in no way were we complaining that "damn, it would've been *soooo* much easier if we had a tac captain present."

    Videos can be fabricated or exaggerated to give an impression, that is hardly verification of a point. Besides as you mentioned yourself, you aren't warpangel so it would be even more difficult to know for sure.

    T6 Miranda Hero Ship FTW.
    Been around since Dec 2010 on STO and bought LTS in Apr 2013 for STO.
  • lordsteve1lordsteve1 Member Posts: 3,492 Arc User
    Don’t wish to get off topic here and though the videos of elite content runs are impressive they dont really aid in the discussion at hand.
    We all appreciate that there is a 10% of elite players who can wipe the floor with any content and can put together a variety of highly refined builds to perform at the highest level. But you guys are the outliers in this game. The vast majority of discussion needs to be focused solely on what can be achieved at the normal-advanced level because that is where Captain Average Joe is situated and where most of Cryptic’s attention should be and is focused.

    I don’t agree with needing tacs or trying to remove a trinity, though I do acknowledge it at least exists in this game in some more challenging areas.
    So really I’m just saying that let’s not turn this into a TRIBBLE measuring contest and name dropping contest for top players. Discussing who can and cannot manage elite content is t really helping.
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  • peterconnorfirstpeterconnorfirst Member Posts: 6,225 Arc User
    edited September 2018

    Videos can be fabricated or exaggerated to give an impression, that is hardly verification of a point.

    Hey you, Tunebreaker would not do that. He does not even have the reason to do so. :|
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    felisean wrote: »
    teamwork to reach a goal is awesome and highly appreciated
  • peterconnorfirstpeterconnorfirst Member Posts: 6,225 Arc User
    edited September 2018
    lordsteve1 wrote: »
    Don’t wish to get off topic here and though the videos of elite content runs are impressive they dont really aid in the discussion at hand.

    But what is the discussion? I have lost track! Is it to give up those very few trinity aspects we have in STO that are related to captains powers for some 20% more DPS that TACs can pull lol?

    The handful of captains powers are a dust particle compared to all those gear, trait, ability and spec choices but peeps can only look at AP Alpha. :/

    As things are now all careers can do everything in game with just very few things that each of the careers can do a tiny bit better: TACs can pull a bit more dmg, ENGs are a bit more durable and SCIs are a bit better at buffs/debuffs and thats just about it.

    Oh and its fine that way man...
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    felisean wrote: »
    teamwork to reach a goal is awesome and highly appreciated
  • tunebreakertunebreaker Member Posts: 1,222 Arc User
    lordsteve1 wrote: »
    Don’t wish to get off topic here and though the videos of elite content runs are impressive they dont really aid in the discussion at hand.
    We all appreciate that there is a 10% of elite players who can wipe the floor with any content and can put together a variety of highly refined builds to perform at the highest level. But you guys are the outliers in this game. The vast majority of discussion needs to be focused solely on what can be achieved at the normal-advanced level because that is where Captain Average Joe is situated and where most of Cryptic’s attention should be and is focused.

    I don’t agree with needing tacs or trying to remove a trinity, though I do acknowledge it at least exists in this game in some more challenging areas.
    So really I’m just saying that let’s not turn this into a **** measuring contest and name dropping contest for top players. Discussing who can and cannot manage elite content is t really helping.

    And the average joe can very well complete any normal or advanced mission in the game, if they are willing to put at least a tiny bit of effort into it. It doesn't matter whether they are using tactical, engineering or science captain. That's all I'm saying.
    Videos were just there to answer mirrorchaos's ridiculous claim as if pure science or engineer teams can't do well. Stop fixating on me and trying to show to the world as if i'm some sort of elitist and "too good player to understand the struggle of the common folks" every time I post something.

    Videos can be fabricated or exaggerated to give an impression, that is hardly verification of a point.

    Yeah, and I'm sure that the earth is hollow and has a bigger sphere inside it, Obama went back in time to assassinate Kennedy to hide the fact that he was his illegitimate father and Michael Bay did 9/11, using the money he had stolen from Olympian gods.
  • lordsteve1lordsteve1 Member Posts: 3,492 Arc User
    edited September 2018
    @tunebreaker I’m not fixating on you at all, nor am I trying to show you to be some elitist either.
    You’re the one that keeps dragging every thread into a discussion of elite maps and dropping names of people capable of running in the top 10%.

    All I’m doing is asking that not every discussion round here end up being a screaming match between the minority of top players and all the rest of us who people like you look down upon because we won’t achieve to your level. We’re happy being average and enjoying the game at that level.

    On the subject at hand though I’m firmly against any changes to tactical abilities or players. The trinity can exist in the game in some situations and to be fair, at the advanced level the majority of players on a level playing field anyway. You see plenty of good and bad performance from all classes.
    I really don’t see tactical as outclassing anyone else unless you start measuring performance at the highest level. It simply doesn’t mater at low levels of play.
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  • meimeitoomeimeitoo Member Posts: 12,587 Arc User
    In S13, APA was already nerfed, from 30 secs to only last 20. And Engineering/Sci powers were boosted accordingly. Worse than Cryptic nerfing things are the ppl asking for said nerfs.
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  • tunebreakertunebreaker Member Posts: 1,222 Arc User
    lordsteve1 wrote: »

    All I’m doing is asking that not every discussion round here end up being a screaming match between the minority of top players and all the rest of us who people like you look down upon because we won’t achieve to your level. We’re happy being average and enjoying the game at that level.

    Then stop bringing it up, especially when my examples are proving the point you yourself are agreeing with.
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