The prime and kelvin timeline to be merged into something new?

vengefuldjinn

I just watched this podcast:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jLl17YXrAZY

They talk about the direction of the new Picard series and the francise -

What do you think?

I appologize if this has been discussed elsewhere

angrytarg

Since there aren't even scripts for the new show yet I suspect this is baseless speculation and fearmongering as always?

theraven2378

It's one of them wait and see what is announced officially
My two EC

artan42

You can't merge them. It's a timeline. You'd only be able to go back in time and prevent the destruction of the Kelvin in the first place.​​

markhawkman

angrytarg wrote: »

Since there aren't even scripts for the new show yet I suspect this is baseless speculation and fearmongering as always?

Well, it's a Midnight's Edge video, so yeah....

rattler2

So... the same guy who's basically crying "DOOOOOOOOM" on CBS?

iamynaught

markhawkman wrote: »

angrytarg wrote: »

Since there aren't even scripts for the new show yet I suspect this is baseless speculation and fearmongering as always?

Well, it's a Midnight's Edge video, so yeah....

Beat me to it.

starkaos

It can be argued that with the amount of time travel in Enterprise, Discovery is in a different timeline from the Prime Timeline that TOS, TNG, DS9, and Voyager existed in. However, there would only be some differences between the two timelines and nothing as drastic as the Kelvin movies. After all, killing 7 million people during the Xindi attack when it didn't happen in the original timeline would certainly change the timeline, but not as much as destroying Vulcan.

Merging realities together would require some cataclysmic event like DC's Infinite Crisis. So if Q or someone as powerful as him decide to merge realities together, then they could do it. However, Star Trek is not as bloated as DC was to require such a drastic change.

rattler2

We don't know it didn't happen in the "original" timeline because it was a prequel. Meant to show events before the Original Series. A LOT of things happen in prequels that aren't mentioned in "later periods". Why? Because it wasn't written when the "later periods" were shown. So it is impossible to reference some things in a prequel before the prequel happened.

Using the Xindi attack... it was probably one of the driving forces that lead to Starfleet being more of a powerhouse than they showed at the start of Enterprise. Pushed the development of weapons, like the Photonic Torpedo to replace Spatial Torpedos, which would later enable Starfleet to be a surprisingly resiliant force in the Earth-Romulan War.

MAJOR events like Star Trek's Earth-Romulan War or Star Wars' Clone Wars can be referenced or fleshed out more, as we saw in the case of Star Wars. But DETAILS are what we lacked before these prequels took place.

First... lets look at Star Trek.
We know the Earth-Romulan War happened. We know Starfleet never actually SAW a Romulan until the TOS era. We don't know what kinds of ships or weapons were used. And before someone mentions the line about Nukes... even Photonic Torpedos probably make them look like firecrackers. Its possible that there was some creative use of nuclear detonations to utilize EMP like in Star Trek Legacy, but as actual weapons of war... they're outclassed by the 22nd Century. It was never said what kind of ships existed during the war. Now we know that at least the NX and perhaps Intrepid type was involved, and maybe derivative designs like Star Trek Legacy's Posidon class as well.

Now lets look at Star Wars.
Other than knowing that before the rise of the Empire there was an event called the Clone Wars, we knew nothing.
Now thanks to the prequel movies, we know how the Clone Wars started, who and what was involved, and what happened.

So respectfully... saying that Enterprise, and in turn Discovery, didn't happen in the Prime Timeline because X was never referenced in Y is not a solid foundation for an argument.

TOS followed the adventures of a single starship. One starship, in a vast universe. Its almost like saying DS9 or Voyager aren't Prime Universe because their events weren't referenced by each other or TNG. While crossover events did happen since one or the other were running concurrently with another... they're still independant of each other.

Enterprise followed the adventures of the NX-01 Enterprise. Discovery follows the adventures of the USS Discovery. All independant of any other ship, and therefor don't have to worry about impacting any events that concern certain ships in canon. In Discovery's case while Enterprise is somewhat involved now with season 2... it is still in a period of time between the events at Talos IV and when Kirk takes command. A period of time we have nothing on in terms of canon events. Therefore... wide open for stories as long as it still allows for ships and/or characters to still be available in "later events". Just like if they decided to fill in that massive gap between the first part of Generations and TNG season 1.

[/soapbox]

starkaos

Except there is one problem with putting the time travel of Enterprise before TOS, the events of First Contact preceding the Regeneration episode of Enterprise. Remove that one episode in Enterprise and there is no way to know if Daniels came from the timeline of TOS, TNG, DS9, and Voyager or a timeline preceding it.

vengefuldjinn

artan42 wrote: »

You can't merge them. It's a timeline. You'd only be able to go back in time and prevent the destruction of the Kelvin in the first place.​​

Isn't there somekind of time travel with Kirk going back and meeting his father in the 4th movie?

legendarylycan

michael chabon? i have a book with that name on it...that cannot possibly be a coincidence​​

rattler2

vengefuldjinn wrote: »

artan42 wrote: »

You can't merge them. It's a timeline. You'd only be able to go back in time and prevent the destruction of the Kelvin in the first place.​​

Isn't there somekind of time travel with Kirk going back and meeting his father in the 4th movie?

Still kinda speculation right now.

starkaos

vengefuldjinn wrote: »

artan42 wrote: »

You can't merge them. It's a timeline. You'd only be able to go back in time and prevent the destruction of the Kelvin in the first place.​​

Isn't there somekind of time travel with Kirk going back and meeting his father in the 4th movie?

That was the supposed plan until the problem with Chris Pine and Chris Hemsworth were having financial issues with Paramount. I guess it is tough to go back to Star Trek salaries when they have a taste of being a major character in the MCU. Chris Pine was Wonder Woman's love interest while Chris Hemsworth is Thor.

rattler2

Also I think Karl Urban and Simon Pegg.

artan42

starkaos wrote: »

It can be argued that with the amount of time travel in Enterprise, Discovery is in a different timeline from the Prime Timeline that TOS, TNG, DS9, and Voyager existed in. However, there would only be some differences between the two timelines and nothing as drastic as the Kelvin movies. After all, killing 7 million people during the Xindi attack when it didn't happen in the original timeline would certainly change the timeline, but not as much as destroying Vulcan.

No it can't.

ENT takes place in the same timeline as TOS as does DSC. That's CBS' decision not yours. You have to adapt your headcanon to work out how.

And even narratively you're still wrong. From the second the Enterprise breaks the 'Time Warp barrier' in 'The Cage' there has been time travel and every instance since will have an effect. Time dosn't recognise severity of impacts, only impacts. It dosn't matter if it's a rock or a mountain blocking one path in the fork in the road you still have to change path.

7 million people dying or two whales living are identical in terms of changing events (or would be if you had a scrap of proof the Xindi attack didn't happen in TOS' past) so pretending that ENT is some superspecial awesome get out clause for refusing to accept DSC is just as fond of retcons as TOS was for itself is stupid narratively and meta-narratively.

At some points we know new timelines are created (Survival of the Enterprise C, destruction of the Kelvin, the Voyager getting home late etc.) but these are pointed out as they are not the normal effects of time travel (if they were they would have just cloned some whales or something, or asked a passing Xindi Aquatic for help).​​

ryan218

Point of order: who says Daniels' future is the Prime Universe future? For all we the viewers know the change in Daniels' timeline may have been responsible for creating the Prime Universe!

'Maybe I don't give a damn about your past, because your past is my future, and as far as I'm concerned, it hasn't been written yet!'

starkaos

ryan218 wrote: »

Point of order: who says Daniels' future is the Prime Universe future? For all we the viewers know the change in Daniels' timeline may have been responsible for creating the Prime Universe!

'Maybe I don't give a damn about your past, because your past is my future, and as far as I'm concerned, it hasn't been written yet!'

Aside from First Contact happening before Regeneration, it does make sense if the Prime Timeline is not the original Timeline.

artan42 wrote: »

starkaos wrote: »

It can be argued that with the amount of time travel in Enterprise, Discovery is in a different timeline from the Prime Timeline that TOS, TNG, DS9, and Voyager existed in. However, there would only be some differences between the two timelines and nothing as drastic as the Kelvin movies. After all, killing 7 million people during the Xindi attack when it didn't happen in the original timeline would certainly change the timeline, but not as much as destroying Vulcan.

No it can't.

ENT takes place in the same timeline as TOS as does DSC. That's CBS' decision not yours. You have to adapt your headcanon to work out how.

And even narratively you're still wrong. From the second the Enterprise breaks the 'Time Warp barrier' in 'The Cage' there has been time travel and every instance since will have an effect. Time dosn't recognise severity of impacts, only impacts. It dosn't matter if it's a rock or a mountain blocking one path in the fork in the road you still have to change path.

At some points we know new timelines are created (Survival of the Enterprise C, destruction of the Kelvin, the Voyager getting home late etc.) but these are pointed out as they are not the normal effects of time travel (if they were they would have just cloned some whales or something, or asked a passing Xindi Aquatic for help).​​

I have stated numerous times that the timeline in the first few episodes of TOS is not the same timeline as Nemesis since changing the past changes the present. However, severity does matter. The events of City at the Edge of Forever will not have much effect since encountering a crazy person would not have as much of an effect as introducing technology decades earlier.

7 million people dying or two whales living are identical in terms of changing events (or would be if you had a scrap of proof the Xindi attack didn't happen in TOS' past) so pretending that ENT is some superspecial awesome get out clause for refusing to accept DSC is just as fond of retcons as TOS was for itself is stupid narratively and meta-narratively.

That doesn't make any sense. 7 million being killed that weren't supposed to die has less of an impact than destroying one ship (Star Trek 2009)? There is no proof that the Xindi attack happened or didn't happen in TOS' past. I am willing to believe that Daniels' comes from an original timeline that is replaced by the 'Prime Timeline' than to believe the idiotic concept that the timeline stays the same with all the time travel in Enterprise.

There is only two possible options, either TOS is the result of the time travel mess in Enterprise and the original timeline has been erased or the timeline of TOS has been erased and replaced by a new timeline. There is no difference in the level of impact in the survival of the Enterprise-C, destruction of the USS Kelvin, Voyager getting home early, or the Xindi attack. Since the three you listed created a new timeline, then the Xindi attack created a new timeline as well. If you want to argue that the Xindi attack didn't create a new timeline, then you have to determine what is different between the Xindi attack and the other three incidents. All four involve time travel and cause significant changes to the timeline.