This is quite pointless since most players don't like to be told what to do and how to do it. I have seen You Tube channels that just skip the tutorials and just jump in to the game and have a hard time navigating thru simple tasks that if they had done the tutorial they would not be having such a hard time.
The thought of having to go through a tutorial just makes most players cringe at the thought of having to "waste" their time going through something so pointless and yet they are the first ones in Zone chat to complain about the mechanics of the game.
I really don't see a solution to this problem other than to come up with a technology to download the information into a players mind.
The basics of building your ship, the amount of bad builds I've seen over the years shows that players have no advise concerning that
this. maybe in the shipyard you can have an "advice" button where you could click it and it would tell you that you have an obviously wrong build. "hey, I see you have anti proton beams installed. those phaser relays will not help you"
Maybe have a database people can reference to look up ships and captains like the armory in WoW lets you look up people. That way people can see how other people are doing things and get a better feel for how they should go with their character.
Honestly when I first made an engineer I had NO idea how I should take it. It wasn't science with all the healing abilities and it wasn't tactical with all the pew pew boom abilities. I found myself taking it in a direction that leaned more towards a tactical style game play but that was just by being a tactical captain before that. Since the Tank/healer/dps setup doesn't really exist in STO because everything is a power creep DPS blowout I'm not sure there is much beyond doing things the tac way anymore outside of mysterious science voodoo space magic builds. And even that is stated to be better done on tactical captains by some people.
you mean like the library computer fucntion that did next to nothing in the beginning? I have wanted an inspect button for the LONGEST time
The thought of having to go through a tutorial just makes most players cringe at the thought of having to "waste" their time going through something so pointless and yet they are the first ones in Zone chat to complain about the mechanics of the game.
If someone simply will not learn, there's no point changing anything for them. The changes are for those who do want to learn, who realize that a "tutorial" is there to, well, tutor you.
Since it was part of my post that were moderated out.
There is nothing they actually need to teach. However, there is something they can do to help the players, new and veteran, learn. That's to put in an archive of sorts. An information are that contains detailed descriptions of how skills, traits, resistances, bridge officer powers, specializations, sets and set bonuses affect your ship or character. This way the players, veteran or new, that want to learn or need a refresher on it can just open it up and read. All of it exists outside the game, but no of this information is in game. Which, would be a standard course of study at the academy.
The previous version of the Skill Tree had that drop down list at the top that would highlight which skill in the skill tree effected a BOFF ability or Ship gear from the list.
That was helpful. They did not add that back.
"Spend your life doing strange things with weird people." -- UNK
“Tell me and I forget. Teach me and I remember. Involve me and I learn.” -- Benjamin Franklin
I was just reading another thread....turned out the OP there had problems with how they had Traits set up.
It may be important to have reminders to update TRAITS as well as the SKILL TREE, as they level up.
I noticed when leveling up my new characters at some point all the Traits had disappeared. (Note: they are still at level 11 or 12, too.) I have, yet, to find the time to check all of them.
++++++++++++++++++++++
I didn't have traits slotted at all for a long time on my Main characters. By choice.
Then, Delta Rising came along and I noticed I was falling too far behind to be without Traits, any more. So, I assume, that was when the content got adjusted to compensate for it.
Someone who was using traits already when Delta Rising hit...probably would have felt it hurt very badly. But having never used them, myself, it just kinda leveled out when I added them. That wasn't very nice.
Currently, testing something similar...without Starship Traits, Space Traits nor Active Rep Traits. I keep the ground stuff since I don't get much practice on that at all. One of these days, I will find time to level up new characters without Specializations.
"Spend your life doing strange things with weird people." -- UNK
“Tell me and I forget. Teach me and I remember. Involve me and I learn.” -- Benjamin Franklin
Another thing....looking at my Jem'hadar skill trees (the default ones they come with) for comparison purposes. As in: what causes "this" or "that" to happen on the Jem'hadar characters...etc...
Words in that skill tree page would be useful. So would color coding the different ranks.
You have enough colors used now, right??? White, Green, Blue, Purple, Whatever the hell Ultra Rare is, Gold. It would, also, help new players see....hey, there are colors on gear, and doffs, and BOFFs...and everything. That this color code progression indicates ranking up.
I like the hover over the box to bring up the glossary. But it is a bit burdensome for the first look or a quick glance. Especially, when one must scroll down through the tree. I would like to be able to see the title of the skill either under or next to the check box. And still be able to call up the pop-up/glossary for details.
I made myself a crib sheet, and, even when printed out....flipping back and forth is awkward.
Post edited by where2r1 on
"Spend your life doing strange things with weird people." -- UNK
“Tell me and I forget. Teach me and I remember. Involve me and I learn.” -- Benjamin Franklin
The more think about this, and the more I look at the mishmash of the UI, the more I am convinced that this is more of a UI problem. So many options and nothing really telling you how any of your changes really work. I would be helpful maybe if STO add in something like the BattleTech mechbay This way at least players can see the ranges of DPS
I think there should be a total rethink of the whole UI and rewrite the tutorial in the process.
What I would like is to add more to the beginning. I liked the old first episode, where you learn all the controls. Expand on that, a holodeck simulation explaining basic mechanics, starting with weapons and how the consoles effect them, then how traits effect them, that sort of thing. you could even have it as a classroom, with your initial crew asking questions and geting the answers.
Here you go. The modifier formerly known as percent.
'But to be logical is not to be right', and 'nothing' on God's earth could ever 'make it' right!'
Judge Dan Haywood
'As l speak now, the words are forming in my head.
l don't know.
l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
I'm talking about the kind of things that you need to know to succeed in the game, but players generally find out by, say, coming here rather than learning organically through gameplay.
I think I'm basically talking about the same thing others in this thread are addressing when they ask for "better builds":
The game never taught me about energy types, what they are, and why picking one would be better than another, and ship power transfer.
What I've gleaned from forum posts and web sites eventually was that some enemies are more susceptible to certain energy types (how do I find out which enemy dislikes which type? No idea. Some guns have "bonus damage vs. Borg" or so, but most don't).
Similarly, power transfer rates seem to draw power from certain systems (engine, weapon, shield and aux?) when I use certain weapons and e.g. full impulse apparently draws power from the other systems, even though Eliza or Tovan or K'Men never told me so. And somehow the "rate" is at which time the other systems "refill"?
I think particularly when Full Impulse is introduced, a short mention of "your weapons will be worse" would be helpful.
Starship traits and mastery. I've seen quite a few people who either don't know what T6 starship traits are, or get them confused with space traits and don't bother to look.
It'd be a very nice idea to add a tutorial for when you unlock your first ship trait, so people don't end up wasting some very valuable traits.
It was supposed to be the 'Prince' symbol, or more accurately 'the artist formally known as Prince'. Best the Internet can do without a new font or inserting an image.
'But to be logical is not to be right', and 'nothing' on God's earth could ever 'make it' right!'
Judge Dan Haywood
'As l speak now, the words are forming in my head.
l don't know.
l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
I think particularly when Full Impulse is introduced, a short mention of "your weapons will be worse" would be helpful.
Well, it doesn't put it quite in those terms, but when you're first introduced to using full impulse, your first officer does mention that it will reduce power available to other systems while it's active. Maybe put it more your way - "Remember, captain, that Full Impulse uses all available power, so Shields and Weapons will be less powerful while you use Full Impulse"?
ship building. Ground combat isn't as bad but there is a huge discrepancy between the high end ships and the average ship. This game just kind of tosses people in there and says "Put what ever you want on there, we don't care", which is great. It leads to a lot of great builds like torp boats and drain builds. The issue is, that once you get into more group content or the harder difficulties, most of the average player ships just don't hold up anymore. My build isn't bad but it's no where NEAR what some of the minmaxers can do. Or even the uber builds, where they are basically invincible dps beasts.
I'm jealous of that but it would be nice if the game actually did more to teach players how to achieve those better builds or how to better maximize their builds of choice. I've been looking into building a great little ship but it doesn't seem to work as well as it should be, given all the things i'm tossing in there.
So how did I learn the game?
I read everything I could and watched quite a few youtube videos to help me understand where I could improve. What I really needed was a free respec to remove the the errors I created while learning. I still maintain that you can put all the information you want in the game, however the player needs to want to learn and not just skip through.
Science ships/captains are probably the hardest to get 'right', the odds of creating a borked character/ship are much higher, imho. How you teach DrainX/EPG/CtlX in game is beyond me.
The free ships when leveling...ask if the player wants a beam or cannon build and give the ship appropriate weapon sets not a bizarre mish-mash which is teaching nothing. If they choose cannon on a cruiser explain why this is a bad idea.
Honestly...I think the game is complicated enough that to teach people in game will be very difficult. Cryptic needs to set up its own training videos, like the myriad found on youtube, and put links in game (if that can be done). Put 'Training Manuals' in game which link to Cryptic's own 'How To...' section which players can read at their leisure IF they want to learn. Maybe give some incentive to read/watch all the training odds & sods. My suggestion would be a free respect.
I started playing this game a little more then a year ago but it took months before I started to get a clue about how things can work together and stack various desirable effects. In short, this game does a terrible virtually non-existent job of teaching synergy.
There is individual piece info if you take the time to dig into it, if that is, the info isn't confusing or incomplete from one part of the UI to another. But how it all works together? Nothing. There is no comprehensive place in the UI to see how things interact and their results. The stats section of each ship is not dynamic enough to be helpful and the fact that being in space or on the ground can adversely alter the information renders it worse then useless. We have many different achievable combat goals in game but no way to compare immediate, short and long term results and effects that might grow out of experimenting with changes. This is a failure of UI but even more so a failure to give to the player any immediate method to perceive the results of any effort to improve or experiment.
Give us a ship building UI. It must be dynamic, clear and provide any ranges of any effect. For example, total potential dps versus shield, total potential versus armor, probability of procs that stack and procs that stand alone, all in a comprehensive and dynamic list. We also need to know which mods are impacting each result and it needs to occur as a build is progressing so that tweaks are just as detectable as gross changes. I have noticed many times that I had no idea where a benefit was coming from and no way to figure it out in-game! Show all sources of change, both potential, ongoing and non-contributing as well. Perhaps give a ghost install option so that a player can see what a new un-owned console or even a complete build can add/create before EC/Zen/Dil etc. are committed. Encourage builds by a UI that actually informs.
The combat UI is worse then useless. The icons that indicate ship status are ridiculously uninformative. If there is a Sci debuff, an Engi debuff or some other problem, how would anyone figure that out unless you are so not distracted by combat that you can casually look over the potentially dozens of ship impacting conditions that you might be experiencing during the mere seconds of their existence. The combat UI must actually be informative, not just a light show.
I like the fact that we can option into dozens of combat combos and effects. But why do I have to download an outside program to make them usable by space bar? Why is there not one, two or three+ action bars that respond exactly the same way the "space bar" gameplay can be made to work? Why is such a simple path to experimenting with combos so hard to build that it's left to an outside source? Why not an Attack, Debuff, Heal and Cure set of bars? If that's too much to ask, why not just one action bar that responds to the Space Bar, built in to the game? A simple path to implementing combos must be inherent in the Ship and Ground UIs to encourage ease of play and experimentation.
In recap, this game has so much customizable potential and yet ZERO way to perceive results of effort other then "mobs or my ship die quicker or slower...maybe" outside of external, frequently unreliable dps monitoring programs. There is no educational path to experimenting, no encouragement to new players to try something different and no way to learn inside the game due to UI obtuseness and mayfly periods to observe effects. Perhaps worst of all, there is no reliable, informative indication of what things actually do in synergy. The various combat affecting UI aspects are scattered, non-intuitive and occasionally punishing due to opaqueness and inability to conveniently change.
Unify combat affecting build UIs into an informative actionable tool, encourage experimentation by streamlining combat bars but most of all, INFORM THE PLAYER to enable learning along with a method to deploy that knowledge.
@valoreah
I think the thing you may want to consider is that your results are not typical.
Just about everyone I know in-game never had issues figuring out how to build a ship properly.
sadly, for everyone you can point to that says that I can point to someone who has been scolded by the "L33T" saying learn how to play the game, n00b. I'm glad the game is showing interest
There is so much minutiae in the game that the only way to fix it for casual players is to have an auto-complete or auto-optimize functions. The is why I said above that the more I think about this the more I come to the conclusion that the full UI needs to be redone.
For ship builds to really give the player the information required to make intelligent decisions in game, would require a whole different menu options where you can see instant feedback from your choices. The sort of have this for the defense/resistance, but it’s always partially hidden and in stat form, nothing visual.
For some sort of visual representation of your potential dps, you would need a graph like this, where the goal would be to push the curve to right as much as possible. This give instant feedback on what everything does.
I'm talking about the kind of things that you need to know to succeed in the game, but players generally find out by, say, coming here rather than learning organically through gameplay.
I think I'm basically talking about the same thing others in this thread are addressing when they ask for "better builds":
The game never taught me about energy types, what they are, and why picking one would be better than another, and ship power transfer.
What I've gleaned from forum posts and web sites eventually was that some enemies are more susceptible to certain energy types (how do I find out which enemy dislikes which type? No idea. Some guns have "bonus damage vs. Borg" or so, but most don't).
Similarly, power transfer rates seem to draw power from certain systems (engine, weapon, shield and aux?) when I use certain weapons and e.g. full impulse apparently draws power from the other systems, even though Eliza or Tovan or K'Men never told me so. And somehow the "rate" is at which time the other systems "refill"?
I think particularly when Full Impulse is introduced, a short mention of "your weapons will be worse" would be helpful.
Thanks for asking
pretty sure the do in the new fed tutorial. i seem to remember it right at the part you have to collect parts from a debris field.
I think regarding builds... Seeing we already have "Basic" terms applied to diffrent builds like for example. "Tank exotic torpedo boat etc" Thier could be a drop down menu on the ship status tab that would provide and example of current known gear in game to accomadate that build so the player actually has somthing to look at and compare with current inventory or rep gear to create that build. Another idea, Seeing thier are countless "Items to complete sets" Maybe somthing that can be added in to another tab somewhere. Either inventory or ship/character. But this tab would include all known complete set bonuses from gear you have in inventory and or bank. This would provide a quick over view of known set traits that would help reduce the confusion in ship/character builds. Imo,99% of a ship build goes sideways do to the overwhelming ammount of options in place. Helping to streamline things like known set bonuses would help players build better. Seeing we have sooooo many reputations now, I feel this is just a must need done thing to help players streamline things.
There is so much minutiae in the game that the only way to fix it for casual players is to have an auto-complete or auto-optimize functions. The is why I said above that the more I think about this the more I come to the conclusion that the full UI needs to be redone.
For ship builds to really give the player the information required to make intelligent decisions in game, would require a whole different menu options where you can see instant feedback from your choices. The sort of have this for the defense/resistance, but it’s always partially hidden and in stat form, nothing visual.
For some sort of visual representation of your potential dps, you would need a graph like this, where the goal would be to push the curve to right as much as possible. This give instant feedback on what everything does.
maybe a graph or slider that shows DPS, maneuverability and tankiness?
For some sort of visual representation of your potential dps, you would need a graph like this, where the goal would be to push the curve to right as much as possible. This give instant feedback on what everything does.
Assuming that DPS is your goal...
That's the problem - so many people in this thread assume exactly that. That's why they want the game to give you their ship-builds, and to teach you how to build their ships in the future, because my builds (for example) are perfectly survivable for all the storyline content in the game, but they don't push the DPS envelope. All they do is kill my enemies, which apparently isn't sufficient for some folks.
Comments
The thought of having to go through a tutorial just makes most players cringe at the thought of having to "waste" their time going through something so pointless and yet they are the first ones in Zone chat to complain about the mechanics of the game.
I really don't see a solution to this problem other than to come up with a technology to download the information into a players mind.
How does one teach a self-proclaimed know it all.
this. maybe in the shipyard you can have an "advice" button where you could click it and it would tell you that you have an obviously wrong build. "hey, I see you have anti proton beams installed. those phaser relays will not help you"
you mean like the library computer fucntion that did next to nothing in the beginning? I have wanted an inspect button for the LONGEST time
There is nothing they actually need to teach. However, there is something they can do to help the players, new and veteran, learn. That's to put in an archive of sorts. An information are that contains detailed descriptions of how skills, traits, resistances, bridge officer powers, specializations, sets and set bonuses affect your ship or character. This way the players, veteran or new, that want to learn or need a refresher on it can just open it up and read. All of it exists outside the game, but no of this information is in game. Which, would be a standard course of study at the academy.
That was helpful. They did not add that back.
“Tell me and I forget. Teach me and I remember. Involve me and I learn.” -- Benjamin Franklin
It may be important to have reminders to update TRAITS as well as the SKILL TREE, as they level up.
I noticed when leveling up my new characters at some point all the Traits had disappeared. (Note: they are still at level 11 or 12, too.) I have, yet, to find the time to check all of them.
++++++++++++++++++++++
I didn't have traits slotted at all for a long time on my Main characters. By choice.
Then, Delta Rising came along and I noticed I was falling too far behind to be without Traits, any more. So, I assume, that was when the content got adjusted to compensate for it.
Someone who was using traits already when Delta Rising hit...probably would have felt it hurt very badly. But having never used them, myself, it just kinda leveled out when I added them. That wasn't very nice.
Currently, testing something similar...without Starship Traits, Space Traits nor Active Rep Traits. I keep the ground stuff since I don't get much practice on that at all. One of these days, I will find time to level up new characters without Specializations.
“Tell me and I forget. Teach me and I remember. Involve me and I learn.” -- Benjamin Franklin
Words in that skill tree page would be useful. So would color coding the different ranks.
You have enough colors used now, right??? White, Green, Blue, Purple, Whatever the hell Ultra Rare is, Gold. It would, also, help new players see....hey, there are colors on gear, and doffs, and BOFFs...and everything. That this color code progression indicates ranking up.
I like the hover over the box to bring up the glossary. But it is a bit burdensome for the first look or a quick glance. Especially, when one must scroll down through the tree. I would like to be able to see the title of the skill either under or next to the check box. And still be able to call up the pop-up/glossary for details.
I made myself a crib sheet, and, even when printed out....flipping back and forth is awkward.
“Tell me and I forget. Teach me and I remember. Involve me and I learn.” -- Benjamin Franklin
I think there should be a total rethink of the whole UI and rewrite the tutorial in the process.
Quality of Life Improvements for the Mission Journal
Enhancement for the Duty Office Assignments
Enhancement for Admiralty Missions
Enhancement for Accolades and Reward
Enhancement Bridge Officers
“Tell me and I forget. Teach me and I remember. Involve me and I learn.” -- Benjamin Franklin
Here you go. The modifier formerly known as percent.
l don't know.
l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
I think I'm basically talking about the same thing others in this thread are addressing when they ask for "better builds":
The game never taught me about energy types, what they are, and why picking one would be better than another, and ship power transfer.
What I've gleaned from forum posts and web sites eventually was that some enemies are more susceptible to certain energy types (how do I find out which enemy dislikes which type? No idea. Some guns have "bonus damage vs. Borg" or so, but most don't).
Similarly, power transfer rates seem to draw power from certain systems (engine, weapon, shield and aux?) when I use certain weapons and e.g. full impulse apparently draws power from the other systems, even though Eliza or Tovan or K'Men never told me so. And somehow the "rate" is at which time the other systems "refill"?
I think particularly when Full Impulse is introduced, a short mention of "your weapons will be worse" would be helpful.
Thanks for asking
-- Uli
It looks like a drunk clown.
“Tell me and I forget. Teach me and I remember. Involve me and I learn.” -- Benjamin Franklin
It'd be a very nice idea to add a tutorial for when you unlock your first ship trait, so people don't end up wasting some very valuable traits.
l don't know.
l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
I'm jealous of that but it would be nice if the game actually did more to teach players how to achieve those better builds or how to better maximize their builds of choice. I've been looking into building a great little ship but it doesn't seem to work as well as it should be, given all the things i'm tossing in there.
I read everything I could and watched quite a few youtube videos to help me understand where I could improve. What I really needed was a free respec to remove the the errors I created while learning. I still maintain that you can put all the information you want in the game, however the player needs to want to learn and not just skip through.
Science ships/captains are probably the hardest to get 'right', the odds of creating a borked character/ship are much higher, imho. How you teach DrainX/EPG/CtlX in game is beyond me.
The free ships when leveling...ask if the player wants a beam or cannon build and give the ship appropriate weapon sets not a bizarre mish-mash which is teaching nothing. If they choose cannon on a cruiser explain why this is a bad idea.
Honestly...I think the game is complicated enough that to teach people in game will be very difficult. Cryptic needs to set up its own training videos, like the myriad found on youtube, and put links in game (if that can be done). Put 'Training Manuals' in game which link to Cryptic's own 'How To...' section which players can read at their leisure IF they want to learn. Maybe give some incentive to read/watch all the training odds & sods. My suggestion would be a free respect.
There is individual piece info if you take the time to dig into it, if that is, the info isn't confusing or incomplete from one part of the UI to another. But how it all works together? Nothing. There is no comprehensive place in the UI to see how things interact and their results. The stats section of each ship is not dynamic enough to be helpful and the fact that being in space or on the ground can adversely alter the information renders it worse then useless. We have many different achievable combat goals in game but no way to compare immediate, short and long term results and effects that might grow out of experimenting with changes. This is a failure of UI but even more so a failure to give to the player any immediate method to perceive the results of any effort to improve or experiment.
Give us a ship building UI. It must be dynamic, clear and provide any ranges of any effect. For example, total potential dps versus shield, total potential versus armor, probability of procs that stack and procs that stand alone, all in a comprehensive and dynamic list. We also need to know which mods are impacting each result and it needs to occur as a build is progressing so that tweaks are just as detectable as gross changes. I have noticed many times that I had no idea where a benefit was coming from and no way to figure it out in-game! Show all sources of change, both potential, ongoing and non-contributing as well. Perhaps give a ghost install option so that a player can see what a new un-owned console or even a complete build can add/create before EC/Zen/Dil etc. are committed. Encourage builds by a UI that actually informs.
The combat UI is worse then useless. The icons that indicate ship status are ridiculously uninformative. If there is a Sci debuff, an Engi debuff or some other problem, how would anyone figure that out unless you are so not distracted by combat that you can casually look over the potentially dozens of ship impacting conditions that you might be experiencing during the mere seconds of their existence. The combat UI must actually be informative, not just a light show.
I like the fact that we can option into dozens of combat combos and effects. But why do I have to download an outside program to make them usable by space bar? Why is there not one, two or three+ action bars that respond exactly the same way the "space bar" gameplay can be made to work? Why is such a simple path to experimenting with combos so hard to build that it's left to an outside source? Why not an Attack, Debuff, Heal and Cure set of bars? If that's too much to ask, why not just one action bar that responds to the Space Bar, built in to the game? A simple path to implementing combos must be inherent in the Ship and Ground UIs to encourage ease of play and experimentation.
In recap, this game has so much customizable potential and yet ZERO way to perceive results of effort other then "mobs or my ship die quicker or slower...maybe" outside of external, frequently unreliable dps monitoring programs. There is no educational path to experimenting, no encouragement to new players to try something different and no way to learn inside the game due to UI obtuseness and mayfly periods to observe effects. Perhaps worst of all, there is no reliable, informative indication of what things actually do in synergy. The various combat affecting UI aspects are scattered, non-intuitive and occasionally punishing due to opaqueness and inability to conveniently change.
Unify combat affecting build UIs into an informative actionable tool, encourage experimentation by streamlining combat bars but most of all, INFORM THE PLAYER to enable learning along with a method to deploy that knowledge.
sadly, for everyone you can point to that says that I can point to someone who has been scolded by the "L33T" saying learn how to play the game, n00b. I'm glad the game is showing interest
For ship builds to really give the player the information required to make intelligent decisions in game, would require a whole different menu options where you can see instant feedback from your choices. The sort of have this for the defense/resistance, but it’s always partially hidden and in stat form, nothing visual.
For some sort of visual representation of your potential dps, you would need a graph like this, where the goal would be to push the curve to right as much as possible. This give instant feedback on what everything does.
Quality of Life Improvements for the Mission Journal
Enhancement for the Duty Office Assignments
Enhancement for Admiralty Missions
Enhancement for Accolades and Reward
Enhancement Bridge Officers
looks like the garage you see in World of Tanks
pretty sure the do in the new fed tutorial. i seem to remember it right at the part you have to collect parts from a debris field.
maybe a graph or slider that shows DPS, maneuverability and tankiness?