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request: less gambling, more personal choices

sennahcheribsennahcherib Member Posts: 2,099 Arc User
Since a moment i'm very tired by the mechanic of all the gambling stuff in game, I mean the upgrade system and the re-engineer scam.
i have almost accepted the upgrade system, but this re-engineer sytem damn' it's enough.
5 days that I try to have 1 mod of my choice. Not only the cost to upgrade to MK XV is totally ridiculous, and in addition we can not choose the mods of our choice in the re-engineer system. ok the cost is not huge but 800 dil x1 x2 x3 x4 etc, the total begins to be huge.

I know that the goal of all this is to use the exasperation of the players and that they open their wallet, but for me this gambling system has the opposite effect.

I want to be able to choice the mod of my choice and for the same price. the cost of a MK XV weapon is already sufficient, no need to add more gambling. btw during the upgrade process at epic, the mod ac/dm is the only available, not really fair!! (i have never had the other mods)
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Anne of Brittany

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Comments

  • postagepaidpostagepaid Member Posts: 1,719 Arc User
    Weigh up how much you actually need to have mk15's compared to the content you're doing because as you mention it is a huge dilitium sink in a game that already has a more dil sinks than needed given the daily limit placed on refining.

    If you're not doing elites then bankrupting yourself to eke out a couple more points of dps isn't necessarily worth it.

    Upgrading to mk15 isn't needed if you only do episodes, battlezones and RA's. I've upgraded some gear but only ever do so when there's a bonus on doing so and don't care that its not epic.
  • azrael605azrael605 Member Posts: 7,587 Arc User
    Cut the disigenuous gambling comments that do not apply.
    #TASinSTO

    Bring on Discovery season 2 and Age of Discovery.
  • tigerariestigeraries Member Posts: 2,551 Arc User
    make mk 2s and hope you get the UR mod that you want. then settle for 2nd or 3rd best for the other mods... Dmg, CritD & Acc.
  • azrael605azrael605 Member Posts: 7,587 Arc User
    > @tigeraries said:
    > make mk 2s and hope you get the UR mod that you want. then settle for 2nd or 3rd best for the other mods... Dmg, CritD & Acc.

    With reengineering thats extra steps you don't need anymore.
    #TASinSTO

    Bring on Discovery season 2 and Age of Discovery.
  • davefenestratordavefenestrator Member Posts: 5,969 Arc User
    Mk II is still the best way to have a chance to get the quality to epic. Just craft them until you get the primary mod you want (currently PEN is recommended)

    Until last season re-engineering did not exist at all, so it's a major improvement even if it isn't free.

    RNG in crafting is in most MMOs, and many have no upgrades or re-engineering -- craft, use a little while, discard.
  • azrael605azrael605 Member Posts: 7,587 Arc User
    > @davefenestrator said:
    > Mk II is still the best way to have a chance to get the quality to epic. Just craft them until you get the primary mod you want (currently PEN is recommended)
    >
    > Until last season re-engineering did not exist at all, so it's a major improvement even if it isn't free.
    >
    > RNG in crafting is in most MMOs, and many have no upgrades or re-engineering -- craft, use a little while, discard.

    Yes of course, sorry if I was unclear. Craft items at MK II, it's the best way. At II they only require common quality materials to make, and after you get to level 4 or 5 in the crafting school your practically guaranteed to get VR quality.
    #TASinSTO

    Bring on Discovery season 2 and Age of Discovery.
  • salazarrazesalazarraze Member Posts: 2,650 Arc User
    OP, I re-engineered dozens of gear pieces per character for 10 characters totaling over 200 items to the exact modifiers that I want and, unlike you, I'm very happy with the process and results.
  • leemwatsonleemwatson Member Posts: 2,650 Arc User
    Since a moment i'm very tired by the mechanic of all the gambling stuff in game, I mean the upgrade system and the re-engineer scam.
    i have almost accepted the upgrade system, but this re-engineer sytem damn' it's enough.
    5 days that I try to have 1 mod of my choice. Not only the cost to upgrade to MK XV is totally ridiculous, and in addition we can not choose the mods of our choice in the re-engineer system. ok the cost is not huge but 800 dil x1 x2 x3 x4 etc, the total begins to be huge.

    I know that the goal of all this is to use the exasperation of the players and that they open their wallet, but for me this gambling system has the opposite effect.

    I want to be able to choice the mod of my choice and for the same price. the cost of a MK XV weapon is already sufficient, no need to add more gambling. btw during the upgrade process at epic, the mod ac/dm is the only available, not really fair!! (i have never had the other mods)

    Sorry but we've been through this already and it is never, ever going to happen that way. The Re-Engineering system is LIMITED in use, and will always be that way, for once you have used it, you won't use it on that item again. It went through alot of player testing before it went live and the cost was adjusted according to PLAYER comments.

    And I'm sorry, but saying getting AC/DM Epic is not fair is probably the most unreasonable of your comments. ALL weapons come with it as standard, so it IS fair considering you're actually getting ACC plus DMG plus DMG, because the Epic mod adds a hidden DMG mod. The mod itself is actually very good and of more worth if you're not spec'd for Crits.
    "You don't want to patrol!? You don't want to escort!? You don't want to defend the Federation's Starbases!? Then why are you flying my Starships!? If you were a Klingon you'd be killed on the spot, but lucky for you.....you WERE in Starfleet. Let's see how New Zealand Penal Colony suits you." Adm A. Necheyev.
  • tm706tm706 Member Posts: 183 Arc User
    Keeping in mind that it's a F2P game, I don't find it unreasonable for Cryptic to insert some randomness into functions like mods, in hopes that you need to use a slightly greater amount of the currency you gain from playing the F2P game that you could otherwise use to gain free items from the F2P game, in hopes that you do open your wallet and contribute a few bucks to the F2P game. All in all I feel that the cost to re-roll or craft items is balanced well enough to encourage people to use it and not drive them into a spending spree. Just my opinion, of course.
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  • davefenestratordavefenestrator Member Posts: 5,969 Arc User
    tm706 wrote: »
    Keeping in mind that it's a F2P game, I don't find it unreasonable for Cryptic to insert some randomness into functions like mods, in hopes that you need to use a slightly greater amount of the currency you gain from playing the F2P game that you could otherwise use to gain free items from the F2P game, in hopes that you do open your wallet and contribute a few bucks to the F2P game. All in all I feel that the cost to re-roll or craft items is balanced well enough to encourage people to use it and not drive them into a spending spree. Just my opinion, of course.

    Yep, it's been almost 4 years now, and I have yet to need to spend any real-world money for dil while gearing up many characters. We get piles of dil from reputations, queues, doffing, admiralty. We get free upgrade tokens during the aniversary and cheap tokens during the Phoenix pack events. We get bonus dil weekends and bonus upgrade weekends. Very generous for F2P.

  • echattyechatty Member Posts: 3,251 Arc User
    Personally I don't understand why some people just want things handed to them. I haven't re-rolled many things, but I've never re-rolled them more than once to get better mods, and it's usually replacing the [Acc] mod.

    Then again, I'm not trying to get really specific mods, just something better than [Acc]. I've usually gotten CrtD or CrtH or Dmg in one roll. These are mods I like.
    Now a LTS and loving it.

    Just because you spend money on this game, it does not entitle you to be a jerk if things don't go your way.

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  • coldnapalmcoldnapalm Member Posts: 6,309 Arc User
    Are you attempting to get a rapid/over/pen mod with re-engineering? Because it should not take you days to get a mod you want. If you are attempting to get those crafted only mods...than you can't. And you wasted a bunch of dil due to your own damn ignorance.

    As for rarity upgrades...yeah...trust me for a f2p game, what they have here is nice. Especially since it is pretty much completely un-needed to do the content. And the amount of dil needed to get to mark 15 from 12 is pretty small actually when you consider that you get dil free upgrade tokens from romulan admiralty track. Even going with just superior upgrades, from 14 to 15 everything, it is only like 120k refined dil. Which once again is not that bad. Especially since you don't actually NEED it.
  • asuran14asuran14 Member Posts: 2,187 Arc User
    I like the crafting, and modifying/re-engineering systems in sto, does not feel that bad at all. It might be nice if we had some method of crafting a item/material that could raise the potential of crafting an item, or re-engineering an item to have a specific mod we want, but it is not needed really with this system.
  • sennahcheribsennahcherib Member Posts: 2,099 Arc User
    i'm not against the fact to spend dill, but the problem is that the random choice for the re-engineer system is not necessary at all; one time in game that would be interesting to make our choices without a gambling system.

    btw, I made the choice to have everything at MK X epic or not because the game is more confortable with good weapons, I do advanced or elite stf, with MK XII weapons these stfs would be ridiculously boring to do.
    Even going with just superior upgrades, from 14 to 15 everything, it is only like 120k refined dil. Which once again is not that bad. Especially since you don't actually NEED it.

    i know i don't need 14 or 15 upgrades, but when I play at a game i want to use all the possibilities. I have a main toon and I wanted to have multiple kind of builds (beam, cannons all with different energies), because for me it's interesting to try everything, but with the cost all the upgrades + the re-gambling system, I have totally abandonned this idea (testing everyting at the highest rank). i'm sorry, but in my humble opinion, cryptic discourages a lot of players to try all the possibilities that offers this game only for the hope to make money.

    to sum up; the re-engineer system is good idea, but after the cost of the upgrades (my CHOICE), it's sad to see that you must gamble to choose the mod of your choice, and i'm ok to spend dil and salvage stuff, but that shouldn't be random. that's all.


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    Kentoc'h mervel eget bezañ saotret (Potius Mori Quam Foedari)
    __________________________________________________________________
    Anne of Brittany

    Un ali mat zo mat bepred Ha pa ve digant ur sot e ve
    (Good advice is always good, even though it comes from an idiot).
  • asuran14asuran14 Member Posts: 2,187 Arc User
    the problem is that the random choice for the re-engineer system is not necessary at all

    Well actually it kinda is. Thru making it random they made it actually something players actually re-use over an over till they get what they wanted, and max out what they are seeking. If the system was changed to a static choice you could make to get the mod you want, than players would use the system one time each item an get exactly what they want, and doing that would most likely cause the devs to actually significantly raise the salvage/dil cost to change a mod in the system. Via making it random they make players interact with the system more often, and actually make the system a dil/time sink as is pretty evident they were wanting to make it.
  • coldnapalmcoldnapalm Member Posts: 6,309 Arc User
    i'm not against the fact to spend dill, but the problem is that the random choice for the re-engineer system is not necessary at all; one time in game that would be interesting to make our choices without a gambling system.

    btw, I made the choice to have everything at MK X epic or not because the game is more confortable with good weapons, I do advanced or elite stf, with MK XII weapons these stfs would be ridiculously boring to do.
    Even going with just superior upgrades, from 14 to 15 everything, it is only like 120k refined dil. Which once again is not that bad. Especially since you don't actually NEED it.

    i know i don't need 14 or 15 upgrades, but when I play at a game i want to use all the possibilities. I have a main toon and I wanted to have multiple kind of builds (beam, cannons all with different energies), because for me it's interesting to try everything, but with the cost all the upgrades + the re-gambling system, I have totally abandonned this idea (testing everyting at the highest rank). i'm sorry, but in my humble opinion, cryptic discourages a lot of players to try all the possibilities that offers this game only for the hope to make money.

    to sum up; the re-engineer system is good idea, but after the cost of the upgrades (my CHOICE), it's sad to see that you must gamble to choose the mod of your choice, and i'm ok to spend dil and salvage stuff, but that shouldn't be random. that's all.


    1) to make it an efficent time/dil sink, they NEED to make it random OR make the cost be many...MANY times higher. So instead of 800 dil, think 80k dil. And 100x as much salavage. If you prefer that number...sure that is a valid discussion to have. However if you do NOT like those numbers, than suck it up and accept RNGessus.

    2) I am gonna assume you mean mark XV epic and not X. But why would mark XII be boring? Do you not like a challenge? Is it boring unless you press the space bar once and everything blows up instantly around you? I find that odd. I literally have to give myself various handicaps in my builds to limit what I do so that I can find this game even remotely challenging. If you use mark X weapons to make things a challenge...than good on you...but your complaint about the cost of mark XV makes little sense than.

    3) So you want to play a game and get the absolute best of EVERYTHING in the game without a high cost in either time spent in the game OR money spent. K. Because that is a reasonable request. Said no dev ever. This is an absolutely unreasonable expectation.

    4) The re-engineer is a great idea that the players have been asking for AGES. They listened and came up with a system that works as a time and dil sink AND at reasonable costs of both no less. The devs actually did a GOOD thing in this case and you want to complain because YOU personally think you should be handed EVERYTHING on a silver platter. Yeah...how about no to that. The system is actually great...and the players actually love it. How about we leave well enough alone.
  • meimeitoomeimeitoo Member Posts: 11,249 Arc User
    I'm actually quite happy with the re-engineering system. For a bit of Dilithium, you're getting weps you'd normally have to pay hundred of millions in EC for. My only regret, is that they pretty much abandoned the system, after having promised everything (including rep gear) would become re-engineerable.
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  • seaofsorrowsseaofsorrows Member Posts: 5,999 Arc User
    meimeitoo wrote: »
    I'm actually quite happy with the re-engineering system. For a bit of Dilithium, you're getting weps you'd normally have to pay hundred of millions in EC for. My only regret, is that they pretty much abandoned the system, after having promised everything (including rep gear) would become re-engineerable.

    Agreed, I think most of the people that don't like the re-engineering system simply don't remember how it was before. You want a beam with 3 Damage Mods and Pen? Great.. start crafting beams. You crank these things out over and over for days until you finally get that holy grail DmGx2 with Pen. Then you upgrade it and guess what.. you get ACC at UR and CRTH at Epic. Now you have spent the dilithium to upgrade a weapon that's no where near what you want... back to the drawing board.

    Being able to simply re-engineer the mods is a god send.. I do agree though, that it needs to be on everything. I still occasionally find an item that for some strange reason just cannot be re-engineered. It would be nice if it was a system that applied universally to all item.

    The only downside of the system was that I used to craft Mark II VR Beams to sell on the exchange. I made quite a profit selling CrtDx2 Pen beams back in the day, now they are worth practically nothing. Overall, it's fine because I was able to get all my items to 'perfect mods' so it was worth the trade off.
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  • sennahcheribsennahcherib Member Posts: 2,099 Arc User
    edited July 13
    3) So you want to play a game and get the absolute best of EVERYTHING in the game without a high cost in either time spent in the game OR money spent. K. Because that is a reasonable request. Said no dev ever. This is an absolutely unreasonable expectation.

    yes, i want to try everything at the highest rank possible, but like I SAID, i'm ok to pay dil, ec, real money (I spent 200 euros in june in game, 100 in may), I just bored to have too many random stuff all the time. it's not really difficult to understand. Just 1time, could we have the possibility to make a choice ourselves. The idea is very interesting, the way how this idea works is a just a pain in the a.. .

    Just an example 6th day of attempt: I just want to replace crth by dmg on a disruptor cannon, today i spent more than 2000 salvage stuff + the dil cost, and i still don't have this dmg mod. finally i left the game frustrated without the desire to put more euros in game. So at least for me, the frustration is not a good motivation to spend money in game.
    Post edited by sennahcherib on
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    Kentoc'h mervel eget bezañ saotret (Potius Mori Quam Foedari)
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    Anne of Brittany

    Un ali mat zo mat bepred Ha pa ve digant ur sot e ve
    (Good advice is always good, even though it comes from an idiot).
  • tigerariestigeraries Member Posts: 2,551 Arc User
    azrael605 wrote: »
    > @tigeraries said:
    > make mk 2s and hope you get the UR mod that you want. then settle for 2nd or 3rd best for the other mods... Dmg, CritD & Acc.

    With reengineering thats extra steps you don't need anymore.

    Crafting mods are still restricted... and my luck sucks... would take 10's of thousands of dil and savage to get 3 CritD (or mod of choice) mods... I would settle for Dmg or CritD and 1 Acc... since all AOE attacks now have built in acc penalty. 1 Acc would help offset it.
  • azrael605azrael605 Member Posts: 7,587 Arc User
    > @tigeraries said:
    > azrael605 wrote: »
    >
    > > @tigeraries said:
    > > make mk 2s and hope you get the UR mod that you want. then settle for 2nd or 3rd best for the other mods... Dmg, CritD & Acc.
    >
    > With reengineering thats extra steps you don't need anymore.
    >
    >
    >
    >
    > Crafting mods are still restricted... and my luck sucks... would take 10's of thousands of dil and savage to get 3 CritD (or mod of choice) mods... I would settle for Dmg or CritD and 1 Acc... since all AOE attacks now have built in acc penalty. 1 Acc would help offset it.

    I'm not hung up on Pen, I'll take a mk II with Acc CrtH & Dmg and turn it into DMGx3. So if I need one beam I'll make one and whatever mods it gets I will change to acceptable standards.
    #TASinSTO

    Bring on Discovery season 2 and Age of Discovery.
  • meimeitoomeimeitoo Member Posts: 11,249 Arc User
    Just an example 6th day of attempt: I just want to replace crth by dmg on a disruptor cannon, today i spent more than 2000 salvage stuff + the dil cost, and i still don't have this dmg mod. finally i left the game frustrated without the desire to put more euros in game. So at least for me, the frustration is not a good motivation to spend money in game.


    Dude! '2000 salvage stuff' = literally only 5 tries. I know I tend to say this game is costing me an arm and a leg, but geez, don't ya think you're exaggerating a bit?!
    2u4ikno.jpg
  • sennahcheribsennahcherib Member Posts: 2,099 Arc User
    it's only for today ;) I stopped to try after this 5 tries. there is maybe a curse on the coalition single cannons :D
    ___________________________________________________________________
    Kentoc'h mervel eget bezañ saotret (Potius Mori Quam Foedari)
    __________________________________________________________________
    Anne of Brittany

    Un ali mat zo mat bepred Ha pa ve digant ur sot e ve
    (Good advice is always good, even though it comes from an idiot).
  • leemwatsonleemwatson Member Posts: 2,650 Arc User
    meimeitoo wrote: »
    Just an example 6th day of attempt: I just want to replace crth by dmg on a disruptor cannon, today i spent more than 2000 salvage stuff + the dil cost, and i still don't have this dmg mod. finally i left the game frustrated without the desire to put more euros in game. So at least for me, the frustration is not a good motivation to spend money in game.


    Dude! '2000 salvage stuff' = literally only 5 tries. I know I tend to say this game is costing me an arm and a leg, but geez, don't ya think you're exaggerating a bit?!

    2000 Salvage is nothing indeed!! Sorry OP, but in my opinion, there shouldn't be ANY mods on weapons at all! The ability to hit a ship should be based of a ship's targeting computer, not modified by how good a weapon is in a Sci-Fi game. Whilst damage mods may be forgiven, the excessive CritD and CritH just doesn't make sense either. You really think Starfleet Engineers made this much fuss. It's not like they knew what modifiers they had on weapons....which they didn't.

    As I said earlier, the costs were worked out, and the current system IS fair, especially considering how much stuff we all get for nothing!
    "You don't want to patrol!? You don't want to escort!? You don't want to defend the Federation's Starbases!? Then why are you flying my Starships!? If you were a Klingon you'd be killed on the spot, but lucky for you.....you WERE in Starfleet. Let's see how New Zealand Penal Colony suits you." Adm A. Necheyev.
  • duncanidaho11duncanidaho11 Member Posts: 6,749 Arc User
    edited July 14
    i'm not against the fact to spend dill, but the problem is that the random choice for the re-engineer system is not necessary at all; one time in game that would be interesting to make our choices without a gambling system.

    The risk associated with the random mods is part of the cost of the system. You could try for a better mod combination but there's a certain probability that your roll will result in a worse combination (though not one you'll be stuck with indefinitely.) This institutes a trade-off. Far from gambling (which is absolutely not applicable, "winning" re-engineering doesn't result in more dilithium and salvage) this creates a small set of gameplay mechanics (a la monopoly, risk, solitaire, poker, or anything with a randomized mechanism underpinning the game) in what would otherwise be a non-engaging "make your weapons instantly optimal" system. All this while also scaling costs with mod desirability (you're more likely to keep re-rolling for those you feel are best, for gear that carries the highest priority to a build, and based on how dedicated you are about min-maxing) without making arbitrary value judgement about what mods, combinations, and weapons should cost. Mechanically, re-engineering is an elegant bit of video game design.

    You may not like it, but consider that a small element of personal frustration is an intrinsic part of the re-engineering system which is used for effect to help balance its use. Having a grievance for precisely that reason, therefore, isn't actionable feedback as you're not telling the devs anything that they haven't likely considered (it's part of the design of the system.) What you have then is just personal commentary that stops well short of a complete analysis. Venting frustrations may feel good, but again there's not likely to be any changes that result for it.
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  • nixie50nixie50 Member Posts: 304 Arc User
    and sometimes you cannot get the mod you have to look at the tool to see the mods available. for example I do not thing you can get Dmgx4
  • azrael605azrael605 Member Posts: 7,587 Arc User
    edited July 17
    > @nixie50 said:
    > and sometimes you cannot get the mod you have to look at the tool to see the mods available. for example I do not thing you can get Dmgx4

    Yes you can. I have several such items I have recently re-engineered. A ground weapon, a torpedo (went UR at mk XI), and a few others, but I'm only re-engineering a character's gear when they become my active so I don't have as many as I could. I don't hunt it though, I'm good with Dmgx2 CrtDx2, Pen Dmgx1 CrtDx2, and other permutations.
    Post edited by azrael605 on
    #TASinSTO

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  • trennantrennan Member Posts: 1,813 Arc User
    coldnapalm wrote: »
    Are you attempting to get a rapid/over/pen mod with re-engineering? Because it should not take you days to get a mod you want. If you are attempting to get those crafted only mods...than you can't. And you wasted a bunch of dil due to your own damn ignorance.

    As for rarity upgrades...yeah...trust me for a f2p game, what they have here is nice. Especially since it is pretty much completely un-needed to do the content. And the amount of dil needed to get to mark 15 from 12 is pretty small actually when you consider that you get dil free upgrade tokens from romulan admiralty track. Even going with just superior upgrades, from 14 to 15 everything, it is only like 120k refined dil. Which once again is not that bad. Especially since you don't actually NEED it.

    Acutally on this, It can take a while to get the rapid/over/pen/thrust/snare/etc mods. These are crafted only. You can re-engineer them, or use re-engineering to apply them to any weapons. Which can make them aggravating to get.

    As far as salvage goes. Yeah, 2000 isn't very useful. But then, you can go stand next to a vendor and buy Mk IX white gear, for 4000 EC, and salvage it all day long. My main has like 40,000 salvage thanks to this. And this was before the Salvage Bonus pool from Gamma Recruit.
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