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Please do not reduce the population cap to 20 on ds9.

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  • azrael605azrael605 Member Posts: 10,131 Arc User
    > @trekpuppy said:
    > rattler2 wrote: »
    >
    > Um... I don't think the new map can actually SUPPORT 50-75 players due to the SIZE of the map.
    >
    >
    >
    >
    > The upper promenade is huge and could easily fit hundreds of people. But it was more a general suggestion for all social maps - not DS9 explicitly.

    How many people could fit in a room is not equal to how many characters a game map can support.
  • rattler2rattler2 Member Posts: 48,644 Arc User
    azrael605 wrote: »

    How many people could fit in a room is not equal to how many characters a game map can support.

    Not only that... LOCAL chat would get flooded and everyone's conversations would blend together. I mean you'd probably be able to hear the conversations in Quark's over in the new Exchange room, and you're going to have conversations at the Temple and the shipyard and...

    Yea... its gonna be a mess.
    66998372863950ee98cf7da9786e2ea9-db80k0m.png
    I can't take it anymore! Could everyone just chill out for two seconds before something CRAZY happens again?!
    The nut who actually ground out a Delta Pack, Temporal Pack, and Gamma Pack
    The resident forum voice of reason (I HAZ FORUM REP! YAY!)
  • trekpuppytrekpuppy Member Posts: 420 Arc User
    Well, I can't speak for the RPers. But I'm playing an MMO and I want to see other people when I go to a social zone - not a desolated wasteland. Something must have happened since the game was released since the instance limit was 75 back then and it worked perfectly.
    ---
    "-Grind is good!" --Gordon Geko
    Accolades checklist: https://bit.ly/FLUFFYS
  • jbmonroejbmonroe Member Posts: 809 Arc User
    Well players were talking about it after I talked about in zone chat about wanting the population cap increased.

    So we have all this fuss and bother because of what some players said in zone chat? In zone chat I don't even trust it when people say "the."

    Again: Where is the official statement from the development team that the new Deep Space 9 (or any location) will be limited to 20 players?
    boldly-watched.png
  • rattler2rattler2 Member Posts: 48,644 Arc User
    trekpuppy wrote: »
    Well, I can't speak for the RPers. But I'm playing an MMO and I want to see other people when I go to a social zone - not a desolated wasteland. Something must have happened since the game was released since the instance limit was 75 back then and it worked perfectly.

    Um... DS9 has NEVER had an instance pop cap of 75. Its been 30.
    66998372863950ee98cf7da9786e2ea9-db80k0m.png
    I can't take it anymore! Could everyone just chill out for two seconds before something CRAZY happens again?!
    The nut who actually ground out a Delta Pack, Temporal Pack, and Gamma Pack
    The resident forum voice of reason (I HAZ FORUM REP! YAY!)
  • meimeitoomeimeitoo Member Posts: 11,462 Arc User
    meimeitoo wrote: »
    Population cap? Wut?! Why would they do that at all? Why not just program DS9 properly!?
    It IS programmed properly. But even the best programmed element is subject to network stability, AND client-side stability. And if there is a lot of other things going on that are processed on the server side and then need to be communicated to and from the client side, then to keep things at an acceptable level of input/output, then regulating the number of clients thay can access a single instance at a time is necessary.


    Why, thing just is: the cap wasn't necessary at all with the old DS9. So, whatever they did with the new one, obviously performance degraded -- significantly. And while it looks better, it's still the same graphics engine: so nothing to warrant such a required huge drop in population.

    Mind you, I don't care about role-playing; but 20 is very few, and possibly immersion breaking; and a sign of something not having been programmed properly.
  • trekpuppytrekpuppy Member Posts: 420 Arc User
    rattler2 wrote: »
    Um... DS9 has NEVER had an instance pop cap of 75. Its been 30.
    Category Social_Ground
    {
            NewMapLaunchCutoff 70  # This implicitly makes it so one instance always runs
    }
    

    I stand corrected.

    ---
    "-Grind is good!" --Gordon Geko
    Accolades checklist: https://bit.ly/FLUFFYS
  • azrael605azrael605 Member Posts: 10,131 Arc User
    Most maps in the game, not all, but most, have a population cap between 15 and 30 from my observations. There might be few that go higher, but so what.
  • ichaerus1ichaerus1 Member Posts: 793 Arc User
    vorwoda wrote: »
    I'm frankly puzzled. Why would reducing the cap hurt RP? Wouldn't it make it less likely that your instance will be besieged by trolls? Are you in an RP group of more than 20?

    There's a number of roleplayers who have additional pylon accounts that exist solely for the purpose of placeholding or taking up slots in instance #1. And you're stuck with overflow as a result, since a lot of people can't be bothered to have their posteriors pulled out of the bar for RP.

    "Because it's where all my friends meet, and I want to be there in case something happens," is the excuse I've heard most from the people when I ask why they don't venture to other social hub options such as Drozana, Risa, Nimbus 3, Voth ground BZ, Kobalistan, or one of the core zones. Or even the fleet holdings! Some of the holdings such as the Dilithium Mine, K-13, and the KDF starbase bar, when fully upgraded and decorated, make for beautiful, wonderful interaction zones. Hell, you can even use some episode areas or foundry to create something.

    To the OP:
    As of late, I've found myself venturing less and less to #1 at DS9. Because the bar has been crammed with stagnation. Some of the roleplayers such as the OP, are fantastic. The galaxy is your oyster. Why limit yourself to just one area? Or one instance? It takes a person and lots of work to change the world. But it is possible.
  • nimbullnimbull Member Posts: 1,458 Arc User
    Group invites solve getting around the cap limit usually. Honestly a higher cap wouldn't hurt, it'd make the place look busy which is good I think.
    Green people don't have to be.... little.
  • lexusk19lexusk19 Member Posts: 1,268 Arc User
    [sarcasm] AH! That's it then, I guess. Cancel the update, guys. Update over, man. Update over. Back to the drawing board. We've got to rethink this whole thing. [/sarcasm]

    Highly inappropriate behavior for a community mod... Just saying..
    gVOTFcj.jpg
  • lexusk19lexusk19 Member Posts: 1,268 Arc User
    I also 100% agree, cap of 20 is a terrible idea. As it stands with the 30 cap is bad.. I sit there spamming the change instance for far to long...
    gVOTFcj.jpg
  • ichaerus1ichaerus1 Member Posts: 793 Arc User
    nimbull wrote: »
    Group invites solve getting around the cap limit usually. Honestly a higher cap wouldn't hurt, it'd make the place look busy which is good I think.

    The group invites do, if you're Federation aligned, as the instance is infested(very appropriate term) with blueside. But for redside? Most of the time, you're crowded out of the instance, and you're stuck staring at numbers like 35 or so occupants out of the 30, waiting for your shot to get in while you spam that change instance button. Like sitting at the DMV, waiting for your number, or on the bench at a team sport, hoping the coach calls your name. It does make me wonder, how many RP fleets besides mine have moderately upgraded/decorated holdings, for the instance to always be crowded to the gills unless it's during graveyard shift hours.

    The problem is complacency and being too comfortable for a lot of people.
  • vetteguy904vetteguy904 Member Posts: 2,710 Arc User
    rattler2 wrote: »
    I understand the Stability but once everything Settles down I do hope it goes back to normal and maybe they can increase the population back. I'm sure there will be a lot of Jemmies and for the first few days or weeks there will be a lot of people on ds9 I do understand that point.

    It is a smaller map than the current version. Waiting for it to "stabilize" then raising the cap won't change the fact the map itself is smaller.

    Unless people enjoy the idea of being stuck in a TSA line in STO.

    I always wondered why DS9 1 was somehow designated the de facto RP instance. I mean if its full... there are OTHER instances to go to. I mean is it MANDATORY that ALL RP MUST BE, WITHOUT FAIL, in instance 1? Is it THAT necessary to be in the same instance as notable figures like Ivex, who typically haunts the second floor or Quark's?
    I never understood why it was so necessary to congregate in Instance 1 like that...

    QFT. if the cap is 20 and there 1r 15 in instance one, everyone join and the guy in instance 2 or 3 with a low pop tell everyone to switch.. it's not that hard.

    on the other hand, yes the map is smaller, but there is plenty of room on the second level
    Spock.jpg

  • baddmoonrizinbaddmoonrizin Member Posts: 6,187 Community Moderator
    lexusk19 wrote: »
    [sarcasm] AH! That's it then, I guess. Cancel the update, guys. Update over, man. Update over. Back to the drawing board. We've got to rethink this whole thing. [/sarcasm]

    Highly inappropriate behavior for a community mod... Just saying..

    Wow. Some people can't take a joke... Just saying. :smirk:
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  • sirsitsalotsirsitsalot Member Posts: 1,692 Arc User
    meimeitoo wrote: »
    meimeitoo wrote: »
    Population cap? Wut?! Why would they do that at all? Why not just program DS9 properly!?
    It IS programmed properly. But even the best programmed element is subject to network stability, AND client-side stability. And if there is a lot of other things going on that are processed on the server side and then need to be communicated to and from the client side, then to keep things at an acceptable level of input/output, then regulating the number of clients thay can access a single instance at a time is necessary.


    Why, thing just is: the cap wasn't necessary at all with the old DS9. So, whatever they did with the new one, obviously performance degraded -- significantly. And while it looks better, it's still the same graphics engine: so nothing to warrant such a required huge drop in population.

    Mind you, I don't care about role-playing; but 20 is very few, and possibly immersion breaking; and a sign of something not having been programmed properly.

    Because you are a programmer and know all about how it all works.

    Sorry, but it likely has nothing to do with graphics and everything to do with how many character models can fit within the walkable areas of the map without causing bottlenecking... The map is smaller, more accurate to scale with the DS9 on the show. They probably have determined that up to 20 character models can fit within key areas before causing bottlenecking.
    I have no further snarky comments to make, at this time...
  • azrael605azrael605 Member Posts: 10,131 Arc User
    > @sirsitsalot said:
    > meimeitoo wrote: »
    >
    > sirsitsalot wrote: »
    >
    > meimeitoo wrote: »
    >
    > Population cap? Wut?! Why would they do that at all? Why not just program DS9 properly!?
    >
    >
    >
    > It IS programmed properly. But even the best programmed element is subject to network stability, AND client-side stability. And if there is a lot of other things going on that are processed on the server side and then need to be communicated to and from the client side, then to keep things at an acceptable level of input/output, then regulating the number of clients thay can access a single instance at a time is necessary.
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    > Why, thing just is: the cap wasn't necessary at all with the old DS9. So, whatever they did with the new one, obviously performance degraded -- significantly. And while it looks better, it's still the same graphics engine: so nothing to warrant such a required huge drop in population.
    >
    > Mind you, I don't care about role-playing; but 20 is very few, and possibly immersion breaking; and a sign of something not having been programmed properly.
    >
    >
    >
    >
    > Because you are a programmer and know all about how it all works.
    >
    > Sorry, but it likely has nothing to do with graphics and everything to do with how many character models can fit within the walkable areas of the map without causing bottlenecking... The map is smaller, more accurate to scale with the DS9 on the show. They probably have determined that up to 20 character models can fit within key areas before causing bottlenecking.

    Character files in STO are apparently huge as well, per comment by bortius (IIRC) in a thread about adding a pet tab.
  • angrytargangrytarg Member Posts: 9,872 Arc User
    In addition, the worst possible RP location is a bar/tavern. Nothing happens there but the same stale banter of sadhero stories and people offering to buy your female characters drinks. Didn't we have to suffer enough in RL that we have to endure such things in a sci-fi fantasy game now? XD
    2r2u1s2.jpg
    ^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
    "No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
    "A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
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  • trekpuppytrekpuppy Member Posts: 420 Arc User
    azrael605 wrote: »
    Most maps in the game, not all, but most, have a population cap between 15 and 30 from my observations. There might be few that go higher, but so what.
    This is probably true and this is what puzzles me since it historically looked very different. Only 5 years ago the limits were as follows:

    * Sector Block Maps, 70
    * Social Ground Maps, 70 (Only exceptions were FED Acadamy (35) and KDF Academy (25))
    * Social Space Maps, 45

    What happened? What changed that made Cryptic reduce these numbers so drastically and once again plan to reduce them further? This is an MMO. It's very disheartening to travel through sector space not seeing one single ship but your own or going to a social ground map and only seeing a handful of people in your close proximity. If there are technical limitations why weren't they present 5 years ago and why are they not dealt with?
    ---
    "-Grind is good!" --Gordon Geko
    Accolades checklist: https://bit.ly/FLUFFYS
  • meimeitoomeimeitoo Member Posts: 11,462 Arc User
    meimeitoo wrote: »
    meimeitoo wrote: »
    Population cap? Wut?! Why would they do that at all? Why not just program DS9 properly!?
    It IS programmed properly. But even the best programmed element is subject to network stability, AND client-side stability. And if there is a lot of other things going on that are processed on the server side and then need to be communicated to and from the client side, then to keep things at an acceptable level of input/output, then regulating the number of clients thay can access a single instance at a time is necessary.


    Why, thing just is: the cap wasn't necessary at all with the old DS9. So, whatever they did with the new one, obviously performance degraded -- significantly. And while it looks better, it's still the same graphics engine: so nothing to warrant such a required huge drop in population.

    Mind you, I don't care about role-playing; but 20 is very few, and possibly immersion breaking; and a sign of something not having been programmed properly.

    Because you are a programmer and know all about how it all works.

    Sorry, but it likely has nothing to do with graphics and everything to do with how many character models can fit within the walkable areas of the map without causing bottlenecking... The map is smaller, more accurate to scale with the DS9 on the show. They probably have determined that up to 20 character models can fit within key areas before causing bottlenecking.


    Zactly! The graphics haven't fundamentally changed; so, what remains is that heretofore DS9 could hold many characters, and now apparently only 20. That's really all you need to know. And DS9 is a space station. It is supposed to have many ppl walking about. And 20 max, for the entire station, is simply too little.

    Seriously, it's not uncommon to lose oneself in being focussed on making something very pretty, and then losing perspective, and, at the end, realize that what you made is so detailed and fine, that, oops, now it can only hold 20 ppl. And I don't understand why ppl are getting so defensive about this, as what I'm saying simply makes sense.

    DS9 will no doubt look mighty fine. And I look forward to visiting there. But only twenty ppl, that's a shame.
  • jorantomalakjorantomalak Member Posts: 7,129 Arc User
    edited June 2018
    I now interrupt this thread with an urgent announcement.

    Are you tired of being reduced (looks down) ahem I mean population wise, are you tired of grumpy changelings busting your chops about stolen underware?, do you grow weary of Emojorans? (I really hate bajorns) , would you like a place for you and your friends to kick up your heels without the worry of bajoran security whining at you all day?


    Well friends I have some good news for you, COME to beautiful and spacious drozana station located somewhere near something else near that star thingy and the wrecked tribble dreadnought, there you can party, Rp , steal underwear , peddle Klingon pron , and enjoy the 10 (big explosion is heard ) 5 holodecks where you can live out whatever adventure you like, the rumors of ghosts are just rumors , the comet cocktails are the house special.


    So when you think of relocation think drozana , just remember that really cute girl who was flirting with you at the bar?, well she wasn't a girl...or human....or humanoid....or solid.....not a changeling.....just some sentient goo that someone found somewhere....O.o


    I now return you to your regularly scheduled thread already in progress
    I'm Alex MAKEPEACE, not Alex Roundhouse Everyone, Knocking Their Heads Off and Stuffing Their Headless Corpses Into a Black Hole!

    ... Calling it now. Someone's going to ban me for making peace.

  • meimeitoomeimeitoo Member Posts: 11,462 Arc User
    I just visited DS9 on Tribble. As expected, it's very pretty. :) I did notice an insane amount of NPC's, though, especially at Quark's. Maybe if they reduce those a bit, more than 20 of us will fit in?!
  • thevampinatorthevampinator Member Posts: 572 Arc User
    meimeitoo wrote: »
    I just visited DS9 on Tribble. As expected, it's very pretty. :) I did notice an insane amount of NPC's, though, especially at Quark's. Maybe if they reduce those a bit, more than 20 of us will fit in?!

    If its because of the Npcs. Maybe they should just have as many as they did in Ds9 Quarks as it stands right now. They do not need so many. I'm sure if thats whats doing it then they should do so anyways.
  • warpangelwarpangel Member Posts: 8,844 Arc User
    jbmonroe wrote: »
    Well players were talking about it after I talked about in zone chat about wanting the population cap increased.

    So we have all this fuss and bother because of what some players said in zone chat? In zone chat I don't even trust it when people say "the."

    Again: Where is the official statement from the development team that the new Deep Space 9 (or any location) will be limited to 20 players?
    Wisdom.
  • thevampinatorthevampinator Member Posts: 572 Arc User
    edited June 2018
    Yeah there is bugged Npcs on Ds9 I was reading. Yeah I do think they should make them like they are on ds9 right now. Not moving around as much and not to many. Maybe more then they had on the Promande maybe some moving around but not at the bar or quarks area and then I think the game could handle it having thirty as it is now.
  • ichaerus1ichaerus1 Member Posts: 793 Arc User
    Yeah there is bugged Npcs on Ds9 I was reading. Yeah I do think they should make them like they are on ds9 right now. Not moving around as much and not to many. Maybe more then they had on the Promande maybe some moving around but not at the bar or quarks area and then I think the game could handle it having thirty as it is now.

    What? You want to get rid of the drunken NPC patrons that have a spider's web pathing on the ground floor of the bar? The ones that nudge you out of your seats with their stumblings through a number of the chairs? It is funny seeing one of the NPCs sneaking around the contraband officers on the promenade, with his/her sidearm out, and nobody bats an eye. I believe that was a somewhat recent addition to the space station.
  • ichaerus1ichaerus1 Member Posts: 793 Arc User
    I now interrupt this thread with an urgent announcement.

    Are you tired of being reduced (looks down) ahem I mean population wise, are you tired of grumpy changelings busting your chops about stolen underware?, do you grow weary of Emojorans? (I really hate bajorns) , would you like a place for you and your friends to kick up your heels without the worry of bajoran security whining at you all day?


    Well friends I have some good news for you, COME to beautiful and spacious drozana station located somewhere near something else near that star thingy and the wrecked tribble dreadnought, there you can party, Rp , steal underwear , peddle Klingon pron , and enjoy the 10 (big explosion is heard ) 5 holodecks where you can live out whatever adventure you like, the rumors of ghosts are just rumors , the comet cocktails are the house special.


    So when you think of relocation think drozana , just remember that really cute girl who was flirting with you at the bar?, well she wasn't a girl...or human....or humanoid....or solid.....not a changeling.....just some sentient goo that someone found somewhere....O.o


    I now return you to your regularly scheduled thread already in progress

    This guy has it right. Great advertisement there. And I do like that Drozana has booths for people to sit on, like a night club. AND you can wear your clubwear GPL outfits at Drozana(I still wish that the devs would unlock the tailor for using the outfit anywhere, as well as mixing it with other clothing articles).
  • meimeitoomeimeitoo Member Posts: 11,462 Arc User
    meimeitoo wrote: »
    I just visited DS9 on Tribble. As expected, it's very pretty. :) I did notice an insane amount of NPC's, though, especially at Quark's. Maybe if they reduce those a bit, more than 20 of us will fit in?!

    If its because of the Npcs. Maybe they should just have as many as they did in Ds9 Quarks as it stands right now. They do not need so many. I'm sure if thats whats doing it then they should do so anyways.


    There are so many NPC's on DS9, it really feels like a spawning bug. Quark's is so crowded, they can hardly even move.
  • moggiecanadamoggiecanada Member Posts: 60 Arc User
    I am not happy about the cap being reduced to 20, as I too am a RPer and have a hell of a time getting into instance #1 just to listen to the roleplay let alone participate. Most of my RPer friends have stopped RPing or left the game entirely. Those who remain and are my friends online are not RPers so they would not be in instance #1 in the first place.

    I realize that I am in the minority as was stated in the thread so far, so unless the RP hub moves off DS9 to another place like Drozana or Hathon, I'm kinda shut out.
  • vetteguy904vetteguy904 Member Posts: 2,710 Arc User
    I am not happy about the cap being reduced to 20, as I too am a RPer and have a hell of a time getting into instance #1 just to listen to the roleplay let alone participate. Most of my RPer friends have stopped RPing or left the game entirely. Those who remain and are my friends online are not RPers so they would not be in instance #1 in the first place.

    I realize that I am in the minority as was stated in the thread so far, so unless the RP hub moves off DS9 to another place like Drozana or Hathon, I'm kinda shut out.

    and again , why do you hvae to be in instance ONE?
    Spock.jpg

This discussion has been closed.