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Free'Hadar vs Pay'Hadar
wraithshadow13
Member Posts: 1,728 Arc User
What do you guys think of this? Personally, I'm not really happy about the idea of "premium" species with better traits. More so, when the LTS Borg captains can't even get any full body skins. I'm curious to see some opinions on this. I would be really disappointed if this became a future trend in this game, of asking money for better versions of free things. It's bad enough that they started doing this with t5-u and t6 ships, even after saying that they wouldn't do that, but i really don't want them putting out characters and traits equivalent to how they do ships. That's just messed up, yo.
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if I stop posting it doesn't make you right it. just means I don't have enough rum to continue interacting with you.
STO has always had elements of pay to win. Although my liberated borg that was $200 seems a fair bit weaker than a lot of other races, so it also has pay to lose.
i'm trying to keep an open end view on the matter:
1. Star Trek Online is a success.
2. It has been going strong for years
3. Game developers need money to survive.
4. Those actors probably cost a bit in addition to making the missions and the rest of the content for the expac.
5. How else will they recover the costs if not alternative means?
6. Future expacs and content may still need money in the future.
on all that i'd say that at this point it is okay. but if it really becomes a problem where cryptic rely more and more on it, then i will have to reconsider. for now i don't have much issue with it.
Been around since Dec 2010 on STO and bought LTS in Apr 2013 for STO.
I don't mind "pay for traits" since I don't PVP, and would not play as a Jem'Hadar just to min-max even if I did.
I play the factions and races I want to play. I didn't just play tac Romulans with SROs when that was the flavor of the month/ year, I didn't use only Antiproton when that was FATM, I won't just play Pay'Hadar if they are best for a few weeks.
I haven't played for a long time but aren't Romulan SRO stacks still the best? Pay'Hadar could go unrivaled for years.
I've played (briefly) some pay-to-win games, in which competition between players is the soul of the experience and you can only beat some situations by purchasing special powers or characters. PvP here, though, is more of an afterthought, and one I've never felt the need to indulge in over the past - good Lord, has it really been seven years already? And you don't need anything unavailable to the common player to beat every single mission this game has to offer, and it's got a lot to offer (if you don't believe me, start a new toon, then pretend you're a newbie and play through all the missions in sequence).
Joined Trill is an exclusive option for KDF though, it's not entirely comparable (basically take it as a force of circumstance, if you're doing it for the KDF then you might as well make it available for the FED too, even if that does cause some complication.)
Regardless, "will it break the game" is a very uninformative standard. If a new species option mechanically breaks the game then something truly disastrous has gone wrong (and most plausibly an unintended bug, not a design fture). Whether it's a positive or negative change is completely indistinguishable, falling just above or below neutral is a very long way off from the apocalypse.
And on that point: Vanguard Jem'Hadar are being specifically marketed as a superior combat option. They don't appear to simply be a strategic choice or carry any narrative significance (as with joined versus unjoined Trill.) It's simply a payment to get better stats. That in itself is negative because it reduces the concept of species choice to a minor micropayment for personal advantage when before (in all other cases) species choice carried aesthetic, narrative, and greater gameplay significance (adding choices rather than incentivizing purchases.)
I don't like this direction, less is fundamentally being offered with a very limited opportunity (ie. new species, those are very difficult for Cryptic to add to STO.) Something else needs to be a part of the Vanguard Jem'Hadar to better justify it, and that stands even if it doesn't cause the servers to explode come June.
Notable missions: Apex [AEI], Gemini [SSF], Trident [AEI], Evolution's Smile [SSF], Transcendence
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Agreed. You don't WIN anything. It's more like getting a new shinier item. Just added extra bling and sparkle
Original STO beta tester.
No its not. Its available to Feds too.
https://sto.gamepedia.com/Joined_Trill
Where exactly is the sparkle here? Bling and sparkle is a marketable commodity but if it's just stat tiers of Jem'Hadar to incentivize spending money (where once before we had bling, sparkle, and deeper narrative significance in character choice) then what exactly are we getting besides a reduction to STO's potential (ex. having a visibly distinguishable new variant of Jem'Hadar to add to Jem'Hadar classic to highlight changes occurring to the Dominion and emphasize to Vanguard characters that they are in fact something different to your standard Jem'Hadar.)
Oi, really? I talked about the Joined Trill and the FED. The KDF lack an unjoined option. With respect to them, the C-store is the only way to get a comparable character. In the KDF, it's an exclusively C-store species.
Vanguard Jem'Hadar are not comparable because, given the information we have now, they are in a narrative and aesthetic sense entirely redundant. Vanguard Jem'Hadar are only distinguishable from the standard variety in being better at combat. Even if you look at the FED exclusively with Trill (ie. look at this selectively), it's still a very small thing compared deep personal choice (in universe) and concomitant changes to having a symbiote. There is a definite purpose in letting people choose one or the other (it's the most distinctive characteristic of the Trill species!)
Point: add more to the Van'Hadar. Open up more customization options or go deeper into the writing to make Vanguard Jem'Hadar more significant than merely having better stats. As stated above, that's redunctionist game design and Cryptic can certainly do better.
Notable missions: Apex [AEI], Gemini [SSF], Trident [AEI], Evolution's Smile [SSF], Transcendence
Looking for something new to play? I've started building Foundry missions again in visual novel form!
As for the Vanguard vs normal... all we know for sure is that they'll have some better traits. WHAT those traits are... we really don't know the details of. Odds are there WILL be something to set them apart from normal, but until they reveal more details... everything is just speculation based on adescriptive paragraph that includes in universe lore. So honestly... lets wait and see.
Not talking about the justification, just the mechanics. Vanguard Jem'Hadar are for all intents and purposes but one indistinguishable from the standard variety (as far as we know now.) Joined Trill: they are only partially analogous, in the KDF they represent a much more significant species option. Accordingly, they fall short of precedent (and that's before you get back into the lore and talk about what it means to be Joined.)
"Their enhanced combat training has made them incredibly effective at defeating their opponents through superior offensive capabilities on both ground and in space" is very straight forward. They have a different training course, making them more effective in combat. In FED terms they're Macos. We treat that distinction though as equipment choice or point of character background, not a separate species option (which undermines the capabilities of the default character type. Standard Jem'Hadar players are working from an explicitly stated training deficit which explicitly makes them inferior to Vanguards in the primary realm of Jem'Hadar. Ie. Combat!)
Notable missions: Apex [AEI], Gemini [SSF], Trident [AEI], Evolution's Smile [SSF], Transcendence
Looking for something new to play? I've started building Foundry missions again in visual novel form!
Same thing here. We got a few tidbits. Now we wait for the details.
Old Jem'Hadar lockbox/lobi ships in the pack and nobody bats an eye.
Mention an unlockable, different Jem'Hadar species and everybody loses their minds!
Member Access Denied Armada!
My forum single-issue of rage: Make the Proton Experimental Weapon go for subsystem targetting!
Because it's waste of a precious opportunity. We don't get new species choices often because they represent a significant investment on Cryptic's part. To only make it a part of a superficial microtransaction that explicitly adds nothing to the story, setting, or character (besides saying "hey, you're better!") is just a shame and entirely unexpected from Cryptic (given how much STO is built upon player choice and customization options.)
We can hope for more information but we certainly have enough now to make tentative inferences on what Vanguard Jem'Hadar will entail. They are lacking as far as STO species go (every single one either has or means more). Pointing that out provides feedback to Cryptic which they may act upon if willing and able. The only risk to you is that we get a little bit more lore, spikey bits, or skin tones in the premium option (or if I had my way: full alien gen, the Jem'Hadar are an artificial species and the Founders can make them into whatever they will. Seriously, why wasn't this a core part of a faction built around shape shifters and genetic engineering! Come on, go full Tleilaxu!)
Anyway, if you don't have a problem here, great. This isn't a call for action but a specific criticism of announced content. Be as disinterested as you will.
Notable missions: Apex [AEI], Gemini [SSF], Trident [AEI], Evolution's Smile [SSF], Transcendence
Looking for something new to play? I've started building Foundry missions again in visual novel form!
And like I've said several times. WE DON'T KNOW THE DETAILS. Can we at least wait to learn more before calling foul? The Devs have already said specifically that it is a "Jem'Hadar" faction. And they haven't anounced EVERYTHING involved with the expansion anyways!
Do we know for a Fact that there is only x stuff in it? No. We're still a couple months out. That gives the Devs time to reveal more.
I'm more interested in learning if there will be another source of Dominion Polaron other than Boldly They Rode, if it will be expanded on, and if the C-Store Cardi ships will unlock Spiral Wave Disruptors like the lockbox ship does. Arguing over what amounts to a teaser of a new species unlock gets us nowhere.
We know they're not Elders, Vanguard Jem'Hadar regular soldiers who've received advanced training.
("We don't know some things" is not equivalent to "we don't know anything." Seriously, that's a crippling logical fallacy and it does hold people back from exploring their world and understanding what we can of it. If you're upset that we're criticizing a part of the expansion, okay but is the issue here with us highlighting an identifiable issue or your approach to discussion? Cryptic can filter feedback as being justified or not based on what else they know is coming. They don't need us to hold back on discussing potential issues simply because we aren't certain yet of every detail. As these are potential issues, that could rob them of actionable discussion if in fact it is an oversight. So, relax and let these things play out naturally.)
So then why are you commenting in a comparison thread between Jem'Hadar types? If you want to ask a separate question, post a thread where such discussion is relevant.
Notable missions: Apex [AEI], Gemini [SSF], Trident [AEI], Evolution's Smile [SSF], Transcendence
Looking for something new to play? I've started building Foundry missions again in visual novel form!
not full stacks anymore; kentari's space trait slightly edges out even SRO - but you can only have one of the kentari buffs as it doesn't stack
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I've said my piece. I'm not biting.
By "this" do you mean the existence of Vanguard Jem'Hadar aka "Pay'Hadar"? Go to the News page and read the pack details.
Please tell that to my Joined Trill Fed captain, she'd be surprised to hear she doesn't exist.
Please tell that to myself circa the latter half of that sentence and particularly me when writing the phrase "available for the FED too,"
For the KDF, (ie. within the little world they inhabit where posts are read in full because that's the honorable thing to do) Joined Trill are exclusive. They do not have an unjoined option, my non-existent unjoined KDF Trill captain can attest to that. Point there (in line with actually having a meaningful discussion about species options) is that while joined and unjoined Trill are mechanically similar to Vanguard Jem'Hadar in having trait distinctions the comparison isn't perfect even in terms of simple mechanics (story terms: they're on different planets. Honored Elder is a significant point of distinction between Jem'Hadar, emotionally comparable to Joined Trill. Vanguard simply represents having had more intense training.)
Notable missions: Apex [AEI], Gemini [SSF], Trident [AEI], Evolution's Smile [SSF], Transcendence
Looking for something new to play? I've started building Foundry missions again in visual novel form!
They haven't given anything new to LTS for a really long time. I wish they added Liberated Borg Alien to the options for the 2 1/2 factions. Or give LTS a fully unlocked tailor.
To put it bluntly you're trying to create needless drama where there is no basis for said drama to exist. You're taking something that affects you in no way at all and blowing it out of proportion. If you don't want to pay for them don't. It's not going to be so big a difference that you HAVE to have it to play the game. Criticize Cryptic if you will, but their free races are still fairly balanced against the paid for races. But because they're not doing EXACTLY WHAT YOU WANT, you're basically throwing a tantrum about nothing. Stop acting like a spoiled child and telling others they're wrong just for disagreeing with you. Your interpretation is not the only valid one.
P.S. The Elder idea would make sense; your base dismissal of it, which is based on limited and not complete information, is wrong. Older, more experienced Jem'Hadar having advanced training compared to the general ranks makes PERFECT sense.